PDA

View Full Version : Beating a NYC bike traffic ticket on a technicality


JoeD
November 11th 03, 04:05 AM
Hi,

I have been riding around NYC off and on for 30 years. After 9/11, I
decided to minimize the use of my car and gas consumption, I began
commuting to work by bike again averaging over 4000 miles a year. I
consider myself a reasonble and safe rider. I wear a a helmet and have
blinking lights in the front and back.
I got my first ticket recently. Although I have never fought a ticket
before and I want to fight this one.

The ticket describes the infraction as " improper riding of bicycle" in
violation of section 1232 sub A.

Section 1232. Riding on bicycles.
(a) A person propelling a bicycle shall not ride other than upon or
astride a permanent and regular seat attached thereto, nor shall he ride
with his feet removed from the pedals.

I ride an older well maintained road bike with toe clips so the above
violation I am being accused of does not describe the infraction at all.
If the police officer shows up, can I assume that since he selected the
wrong violation that I would win on a technicality?

The ironic thing was that a SUV ran a red light right in front of me and
this police officer in his squad car while we were both waiting for my
light to turn green, and he gives me a ticket.

Any constructive comments to fight this ticket are welcomed.

Regards

Joe

Hans Kohb
November 11th 03, 04:44 AM
"JoeD" > wrote in message
hlink.net

>
> The ticket describes the infraction as " improper riding of bicycle" in
> violation of section 1232 sub A.
>
> Section 1232. Riding on bicycles.
> (a) A person propelling a bicycle shall not ride other than upon or
> astride a permanent and regular seat attached thereto, nor shall he ride
> with his feet removed from the pedals.
>
> I ride an older well maintained road bike with toe clips so the above
> violation I am being accused of does not describe the infraction at all.
> If the police officer shows up, can I assume that since he selected the
> wrong violation that I would win on a technicality?

From your question, I get an impression that you may have comitted some
violation, but not the one you were cited for.

Would you care to share with us the "real" violation, and perhaps we can
evaluate your odds a little better.

Hans



--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

Hi, I'm TV's Oscar The Grouch
November 11th 03, 05:19 AM
I'd throw that ticket right in the trash.

Why didn't they ticket the SUV?

Just another result of having the product of humans mating with farm
animals in the mayor's office for the past 10 years.

--

I think. Therefore, I am not a conservative!
----- http://members.iglou.com/bandit ------

Check out my blog blogga blog at http://bandit73.pitas.com

********** THE REVOLUTION BEGINS WITH YOU! ***********
*** Write-in Tim Brown for U.S. House in Nov. 2004 ***
************* (Kentucky's 4th District) **************

Q.
November 11th 03, 05:32 AM
<snip>
> I got my first ticket recently.

It wasn't a ticket, is was a ransom note ... armed robery.

Fight it.

The thing you have to remember is there is no justice in the justice system.
It's a big black sucking vortex. Really ... it's all just a game. You
might have to fork over your hard earned money, you might not. They want
your money more than anything, and you're nothing to them. What you
actually did is irrelevant ... just ask OJ.

Some things ...

If you haven't gotten any tickets for years, in some places you get a
"freebee". You can asked to have it dismissed based on the fact you're a
good driver. What this really means is that you're one of the "acceptable"
people ... affluent taxpaying voter. Like I said, it's all a game ... don't
**** off voters with money. If you're poor and ignorant (or just look like
it) your chances off getting off are severely lessened ... unless the judge
got a Lewinsky that morning.

If the cop is a rookie, and this is his first ticket or something ... you'll
have to pay. Judges do that as a favor to newbie's. Makes them aware that
one hand strokes the other. It wouldn't matter if you had it on video tape
and a station wagon full of nuns saw you, you're still screwed.

Cops are lazy fat *******s for the most part ... at least, the ones who are
slimy enough to mess with regular people. The good cops are out there
actually fighting crime, but the losers have to give out tickets to justify
their existence (and paychecks). I don't blame them either ... hey,
criminals are DANGEROUS! The slob might not show up. He can hand out
several more ransom notes in the time it takes him to go to court ... or he
might just be hung-over from all the crack he smoked the night before some
other hapless victim paid for. Such is life.

Some places, you don't go see a judge right away, you go see a clerk
magistrate. This is their way of saving time and money. It's basically a
bargaining session. They'll offer to reduce the charge so you can pay less
out of the "goodness" of their hearts ... you'll sit there and try to figure
out how much another missed day of work will cost you. The clerk magistrate
is just a puppet, all he does is bargain people down ... he is absolutely
not interested in your story.

Sorry if this sounds bitter ... but it's all a joke.

Fight it anyway, you'll learn something at least. Who knows, your number
might come up in the lottery that day.

So what did you REALLY do?

C.Q.C.

JoeD
November 11th 03, 06:13 AM
I was waiting at the crossing for my light to turn green. When the
opposite light turned red I waited for a SUV to pass that illegally run
the red light (in front of the cop) and I then began riding. So I was 1
second ahead of my light turning green.
If it is safe and does not interfere with traffic or pedestrians, I
typically start riding after the opposite light turns red and 1 or 2
seconds before my light turns green so I can get a head start on the
traffic.

Hans Kohb wrote:

>"JoeD" > wrote in message
hlink.net
>
>
>
>>The ticket describes the infraction as " improper riding of bicycle" in
>>violation of section 1232 sub A.
>>
>>Section 1232. Riding on bicycles.
>>(a) A person propelling a bicycle shall not ride other than upon or
>>astride a permanent and regular seat attached thereto, nor shall he ride
>>with his feet removed from the pedals.
>>
>>I ride an older well maintained road bike with toe clips so the above
>>violation I am being accused of does not describe the infraction at all.
>>If the police officer shows up, can I assume that since he selected the
>>wrong violation that I would win on a technicality?
>>
>>
>
>From your question, I get an impression that you may have comitted some
>violation, but not the one you were cited for.
>
>Would you care to share with us the "real" violation, and perhaps we can
>evaluate your odds a little better.
>
>Hans
>
>

JoeD
November 11th 03, 06:14 AM
I was waiting at the crossing for my light to turn green. When the
opposite light turned red I waited for a SUV to pass that illegally run
the red light (in front of the cop) and I then began riding. So I was 1
second ahead of my light turning green.
If it is safe and does not interfere with traffic or pedestrians, I
typically start riding after the opposite light turns red and 1 or 2
seconds before my light turns green so I can get a head start on the
traffic.

Hans Kohb wrote:

>"JoeD" > wrote in message
hlink.net
>
>
>
>>The ticket describes the infraction as " improper riding of bicycle" in
>>violation of section 1232 sub A.
>>
>>Section 1232. Riding on bicycles.
>>(a) A person propelling a bicycle shall not ride other than upon or
>>astride a permanent and regular seat attached thereto, nor shall he ride
>>with his feet removed from the pedals.
>>
>>I ride an older well maintained road bike with toe clips so the above
>>violation I am being accused of does not describe the infraction at all.
>>If the police officer shows up, can I assume that since he selected the
>>wrong violation that I would win on a technicality?
>>
>>
>
>From your question, I get an impression that you may have comitted some
>violation, but not the one you were cited for.
>
>Would you care to share with us the "real" violation, and perhaps we can
>evaluate your odds a little better.
>
>Hans
>
>
>
>
>

mark
November 11th 03, 06:24 AM
"JoeD" wrote ...
> I was waiting at the crossing for my light to turn green. When the
> opposite light turned red I waited for a SUV to pass that illegally run
> the red light (in front of the cop) and I then began riding. So I was 1
> second ahead of my light turning green.
> If it is safe and does not interfere with traffic or pedestrians, I
> typically start riding after the opposite light turns red and 1 or 2
> seconds before my light turns green so I can get a head start on the
> traffic.

No offense, but it sounds like you ran a red light to me.
--
mark

GWB
November 11th 03, 06:56 AM
I went to court when a cop wrote me a ticket for the wrong violation. When
I described what I actually did and that I was not guilty of the violation
cited, the judge asked the officer why he wrote me for that violation when
he should have chosen another. The officer said because that's what he
thought was right. The judge let me off.


"JoeD" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
> Hi,
>
> I have been riding around NYC off and on for 30 years. After 9/11, I
> decided to minimize the use of my car and gas consumption, I began
> commuting to work by bike again averaging over 4000 miles a year. I
> consider myself a reasonble and safe rider. I wear a a helmet and have
> blinking lights in the front and back.
> I got my first ticket recently. Although I have never fought a ticket
> before and I want to fight this one.
>
> The ticket describes the infraction as " improper riding of bicycle" in
> violation of section 1232 sub A.
>
> Section 1232. Riding on bicycles.
> (a) A person propelling a bicycle shall not ride other than upon or
> astride a permanent and regular seat attached thereto, nor shall he ride
> with his feet removed from the pedals.
>
> I ride an older well maintained road bike with toe clips so the above
> violation I am being accused of does not describe the infraction at all.
> If the police officer shows up, can I assume that since he selected the
> wrong violation that I would win on a technicality?
>
> The ironic thing was that a SUV ran a red light right in front of me and
> this police officer in his squad car while we were both waiting for my
> light to turn green, and he gives me a ticket.
>
> Any constructive comments to fight this ticket are welcomed.
>
> Regards
>
> Joe
>

Tom Keats
November 11th 03, 07:04 AM
In article .net>,
JoeD > writes:
> I was waiting at the crossing for my light to turn green. When the
> opposite light turned red I waited for a SUV to pass that illegally run
> the red light (in front of the cop) and I then began riding. So I was 1
> second ahead of my light turning green.

So, you timed the light, got caught, and got a ticket for
not having your feet on the pedals. If the ticket you got
is less painful than the one you /might/ have got (for
running the red light), maybe the cop was giving you a bit
of a break? Sometimes it's best not to look a gift horse
in the eye. I'd just pay the ticket. Especially if I knew
I was guilty anyway.

>If it is safe and does not interfere with traffic or pedestrians

Personally, I figure the middle of the intersection during
that brief moment when all the lights are red, is right
where angels fear to tread. Even if you're just slowly easing
forward, too many drivers go into a "Yikes! A moving bike!" panic
and jam their foot on the nearest pedal.


cheers,
Tom

--
-- Powered by FreeBSD
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

Captain Dondo
November 11th 03, 12:51 PM
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 06:56:52 +0000, GWB wrote:

> I went to court when a cop wrote me a ticket for the wrong violation. When
> I described what I actually did and that I was not guilty of the violation
> cited, the judge asked the officer why he wrote me for that violation when
> he should have chosen another. The officer said because that's what he
> thought was right. The judge let me off.
>

Do some research on the jurisdiction - there's one court around here that
will *never* let you off. If you want to plead not guilty, or tell it to
the judge, they will remand you to state circuit court, which means it
will cost you $$$$ and time just to appear.

What they will do is change your violation from one with, say, 4 points,
to one with 0 points - but guess what, the fine for the 0 point violation
is 4 times what the other one is....

Then again, there is another court here where the cop had better have his
ducks in a row. The slightest error and the case gets thrown out of
court. In all fairness to that judge, if he catches you trying to bull****
him, he will stick you with additional fines, court costs, etc.

So, is traffic court where you got the ticket a profit center? If so, pay
the ticket.

-Dondo

Mark Hickey
November 11th 03, 03:17 PM
"mark" > wrote:

>"JoeD" wrote ...
>> I was waiting at the crossing for my light to turn green. When the
>> opposite light turned red I waited for a SUV to pass that illegally run
>> the red light (in front of the cop) and I then began riding. So I was 1
>> second ahead of my light turning green.
>> If it is safe and does not interfere with traffic or pedestrians, I
>> typically start riding after the opposite light turns red and 1 or 2
>> seconds before my light turns green so I can get a head start on the
>> traffic.
>
>No offense, but it sounds like you ran a red light to me.

Yep, 'fraid so. That's clearly illegal, and there's no practical way
to fight it - you broke a vehicular code, pay the ticket. I also
agree with the other poster who suggested the cop cut you a break by
issuing you a ticket on a "semi-nonsensical charge".

The thing I'm struggling with is that in order to be IN the
intersection "1 or 2 seconds before your light turns green", you have
to leave your stopping point even sooner.

Besides, I don't recall seeing many lights in NYC that leave a 2
second gap where all directions have a red light (I could be wrong,
it's been a long time since I drove there). I can't imagine NYC
drivers having THAT much patience... ;-)

FWIW, I will often stand on the pedals and be READY to enter the
intersection as the cross traffic's light turns red, but will wait
until my light is green to enter the intersection (that way it's a
fair race between me and the cars to the other side of the
intersection). ;-)

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

Rick Onanian
November 11th 03, 03:52 PM
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 04:05:34 GMT, JoeD >
wrote:
>violation I am being accused of does not describe the infraction at all.
>If the police officer shows up, can I assume that since he selected the
>wrong violation that I would win on a technicality?

Yes. The officer may not even remember why he wrote the ticket. I
was once cited (in a car) for an offense which was just as
impossible. I don't remember what it was called, but when I
researched it, I found that it meant that you crossed the double
yellow line to pass somebody when there wasn't enough room before
hitting the oncoming car. I was on a separated interstate highway
where that was a physical impossibility.

>Any constructive comments to fight this ticket are welcomed.

What caused him to stop you and ticket you? Just curious.

>Regards
>
>Joe
--
Rick Onanian

Rick
November 11th 03, 05:38 PM
"JoeD" > wrote in message
link.net...
> I was waiting at the crossing for my light to turn green. When the
> opposite light turned red I waited for a SUV to pass that illegally run
> the red light (in front of the cop) and I then began riding. So I was 1
> second ahead of my light turning green.
> If it is safe and does not interfere with traffic or pedestrians, I
> typically start riding after the opposite light turns red and 1 or 2
> seconds before my light turns green so I can get a head start on the
> traffic.
>

Joe,

It is impossible for us to assess your chances. This is one of those
situations where it will depend upon the judge you actually get. You did run
a red light (technically, and also, IMO, at the most dangerous part of the
light cycle) and the judge may let the fine stand for this.

My question isn't about this, however. It is, why do you feel it is
important to get that extra few bits of time to cross the intersection?
Unless the intersection is pretty wide and the light cycle short, there is
no benefit to doing this - none. Any time you do "gain" will be quickly
lost, due to other factors, such as the all-too-common, driver who doesn't
look for cyclists. Most of the time, I am the first to cross the average
intersection and I generally just go hard as soon as the light turns green.
If the road is 4-6 lanes wide, cars may catch me before I reach the
crosswalk on the other side. When I get there, what have I gained? A little
ego boost because at 47 YO, I can still cross the street faster than the
cars. At the end of the ride, lights, wind, asthma, bad drivers, or a
thousand other factors beyond my control will have claimed those few gained
milliseconds.

Rick

PS: Who sees most stop signs as some shade of yellow, depending upon
visibility.

Ken [NY)
November 11th 03, 06:47 PM
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 05:19:04 GMT, (Hi, I'm TV's Oscar
The Grouch) wrote:

>I'd throw that ticket right in the trash.
>
>Why didn't they ticket the SUV?

1. Perhaps the officer had his eye on the bike rider who was in close
proximity, and therefore missed the SUV driver's violation?

or

2. He did see both violations and grabbed the one that was easiest to
grab. After all, if he had gotten the SUV driver, wouldn't that driver
be able to say, "Why didn't you ticket the bike rider?"

As to the specific violation you were ticketed for:
Section 1232. Riding on bicycles.
(a) A person propelling a bicycle shall not ride other than upon or
astride a permanent and regular seat attached thereto, nor shall he
ride with his feet removed from the pedals.

I too use clipless pedals and sometimes have a difficult time
getting my shoes snapped into the pedals for a few feet. Is that maybe
what the officer saw?

Some more NYS bike violations info:

COMMON QUESTIONS ABOUT BICYCLE
AND PEDESTRIAN TRAFFIC LAWS

Which traffic laws apply to bicyclists?

* The same laws that apply to other drivers, with some obvious
exceptions and special rules, apply to cyclists. Most importantly,
bicyclists must obey, and are also protected by, the rules of the road
(Sec. 1231).
* Bicyclists must obey all traffic lights and signs, and must
signal for turns whether driving on a roadway, a bike lane or bike
path. Likewise, motorists must obey the rules of the road with respect
to bicyclists, including yielding the right-of-way when the law
requires it, just as they would to another vehicle.
* Bicyclists who violate the law are subject to traffic tickets.
Parents can be held responsible for violations by their minor children
(Sec. 1230).
http://www.dot.state.ny.us/pubtrans/share.html#1231

Cordially,
Ken (NY)
Chairman,
Department Of Redundancy Department
___________________________________
email:
http://www.geocities.com/bluesguy68/email.htm

"I regret to say that we of the FBI are
powerless to act in cases of oral-genital
intimacy, unless it has in some way
obstructed interstate commerce."
-- J. Edgar Hoover

Q: What the hardest thing about rollerblading?
A: Telling your parents you’re gay.

JoeD
November 12th 03, 02:26 AM
Hi Again,

For those of you that say just pay the fine. I would have paid it if it
in line with my offense. But they want $100, which I was surprised to
learn was more the fines for a driver who speed upto 35 miles above the
limit.

But whether I am innocent or guilty of a minor or major infracture is
not the issue that I am addressing here.

What I am asking is, if the ticket has a vague violation description as
described below conflicts with what the officer will accuse me of doing,
will a "NYC" traffic judge dismiss the charge?
I was always under the impression that if a traffic ticket (auto or
bicycle) did not proper identify the violation or was improperly written
that it would be dismissed.

Again thanks for any constructive opinions.



JoeD wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I have been riding around NYC off and on for 30 years. After 9/11, I
> decided to minimize the use of my car and gas consumption, I began
> commuting to work by bike again averaging over 4000 miles a year. I
> consider myself a reasonble and safe rider. I wear a a helmet and have
> blinking lights in the front and back.
> I got my first ticket recently. Although I have never fought a ticket
> before and I want to fight this one.
>
> The ticket describes the infraction as " improper riding of bicycle"
> in violation of section 1232 sub A.
>
> Section 1232. Riding on bicycles.
> (a) A person propelling a bicycle shall not ride other than upon or
> astride a permanent and regular seat attached thereto, nor shall he
> ride with his feet removed from the pedals.
>
> I ride an older well maintained road bike with toe clips so the above
> violation I am being accused of does not describe the infraction at all.
> If the police officer shows up, can I assume that since he selected
> the wrong violation that I would win on a technicality?
>
> The ironic thing was that a SUV ran a red light right in front of me
> and this police officer in his squad car while we were both waiting
> for my light to turn green, and he gives me a ticket.
>
> Any constructive comments to fight this ticket are welcomed.
>
> Regards
>
> Joe
>

Ed Ravin
November 12th 03, 04:57 AM
From somewhere in cyberspace, JoeD > said:
>For those of you that say just pay the fine. I would have paid it if it
>in line with my offense. But they want $100, which I was surprised to
>learn was more the fines for a driver who speed upto 35 miles above the
>limit.

I find it curious that you don't want to say what you were ticketed for,
much less whether you actually did it or not.

>But whether I am innocent or guilty of a minor or major infracture is
>not the issue that I am addressing here.
>
>What I am asking is, if the ticket has a vague violation description as
>described below conflicts with what the officer will accuse me of doing,
>will a "NYC" traffic judge dismiss the charge?

The judge, after hearing everyone's testimony, can find you guilty of some
other charge that the judge feels is more appropriate. For example, you
might tell the judge that you did something wrong, but you think you
violated section XXXX of the Vehicle and Traffic Law rather than section
YYYY that you were cited on. And if XXXX has a lower fine associated with
it all the better - but if not, you at least you get convicted of what you
actually did rather than what the cop wrote up.

The one time I went before a traffic judge along with a cop who was lying
through his teeth, the judge did just that - threw out the four or five
offenses that I had been ticketed for, and found me guilty of one count of
"improper operation".

>I was always under the impression that if a traffic ticket (auto or
>bicycle) did not proper identify the violation or was improperly written
>that it would be dismissed.

That might be more or less true for parking violations, but not for moving
violations.
--
[email protected] | Grief can take care of itself; but to get the full
panix.com | value of a joy you must have somebody to divide it with.
| -- Mark Twain

Q.
November 12th 03, 05:02 AM
<snip>
> But whether I am innocent or guilty of a minor or major infracture is
> not the issue that I am addressing here.
>
> What I am asking is, if the ticket has a vague violation description as
> described below conflicts with what the officer will accuse me of doing,
> will a "NYC" traffic judge dismiss the charge?
> I was always under the impression that if a traffic ticket (auto or
> bicycle) did not proper identify the violation or was improperly written
> that it would be dismissed.
<snip>

Well, that's not always the case. It really depends on the judge. I once
saw a police officer simply alter the original ticket and he got away with
it ... he even admitted under oath that he "corrected" the ticket after the
fact (after it was sent in for appeal).

You have to understand, there is no law saying you have to break the law to
be found guilty. Sounds silly but it's true ... you could get arrested for
wearing a blue shirt, and found guilty and put in jail because of it. That
is a blatant example, but more often than not it happens in more subtle
ways, and a whole lot of lawyers make their money defending people that has
happened to.

OKay, here's how I see it ... the cop is just busting your balls ... but in
all fairness, by jumping the light in front of him, you were busting his
balls and that's probably why you got the ticket. Cops hate it when you
don't kiss their asses ... it's a small penis thing, the same reason many of
these guys became cops in the first place. You "disrespected" him by not
being scared by him and being extra cautious. You should have waited a
couple of seconds to go through the green light, and just let the bully get
on with looking for people to **** him off.

screw it, fight it anyway.

C.Q.C.

Mitch Haley
November 12th 03, 09:30 AM
JoeD wrote:
>
> I was always under the impression that if a traffic ticket (auto or
> bicycle) did not proper identify the violation or was improperly written
> that it would be dismissed.

At which point he could probably write a ticket which would not be dismissed.
Look into the potential penalty for running a red light before deciding.
Mitch.

Joseph Santaniello
November 12th 03, 10:57 AM
a technique I have used in Chicago for car tickets is to go to the court
a day before the hearing (or whatever you call it) and claim I have a
job interview the next day and need to reschedule.

I figure they notify the officer somehow that one of their appearances
is rescheduled. They probably never even get the message. And since they
have planned all their appearances to be on a specific day, the likely
hood you them appearing the following day just for you is essentially
zero.

So when you show up and determine that the officer is not present, and
after they scare everyone into taking "supervision" so they get a
reduced fine and noone tells the insurance company, they start calling
the people who want to plead "not guilty".

When it is your turn (don't dress like a slob) speak clearly and calmly.
When asked how do you plead, say "Not guilty." The judge then says, "The
officer is not here to refute your claim, you a free to go."

End of story.



In .net> JoeD wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I have been riding around NYC off and on for 30 years. After 9/11, I
> decided to minimize the use of my car and gas consumption, I began
> commuting to work by bike again averaging over 4000 miles a year. I
> consider myself a reasonble and safe rider. I wear a a helmet and have
> blinking lights in the front and back.
> I got my first ticket recently. Although I have never fought a ticket
> before and I want to fight this one.
>
> The ticket describes the infraction as " improper riding of bicycle"
> in violation of section 1232 sub A.
>
> Section 1232. Riding on bicycles.
> (a) A person propelling a bicycle shall not ride other than upon or
> astride a permanent and regular seat attached thereto, nor shall he
> ride with his feet removed from the pedals.
>
> I ride an older well maintained road bike with toe clips so the above
> violation I am being accused of does not describe the infraction at
> all. If the police officer shows up, can I assume that since he
> selected the wrong violation that I would win on a technicality?
>
> The ironic thing was that a SUV ran a red light right in front of me
> and this police officer in his squad car while we were both waiting
> for my light to turn green, and he gives me a ticket.
>
> Any constructive comments to fight this ticket are welcomed.
>
> Regards
>
> Joe
>
>

JoeD
November 12th 03, 01:27 PM
First I want to thank everyone for your comments.

I have one more question.

If I show up and the officer is not there, can I assume that the charges
will be dismissed.
If the officer does show up and I get cold feet, can I change my plea to
"Guilty" to the charge and just pay the fine?

For those of you who have asked about the violation, I have described it
twice in this thread.

Thanks again for you comments.

Joe


JoeD wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I have been riding around NYC off and on for 30 years. After 9/11, I
> decided to minimize the use of my car and gas consumption, I began
> commuting to work by bike again averaging over 4000 miles a year. I
> consider myself a reasonble and safe rider. I wear a a helmet and have
> blinking lights in the front and back.
> I got my first ticket recently. Although I have never fought a ticket
> before and I want to fight this one.
>
> The ticket describes the infraction as " improper riding of bicycle"
> in violation of section 1232 sub A.
>
> Section 1232. Riding on bicycles.
> (a) A person propelling a bicycle shall not ride other than upon or
> astride a permanent and regular seat attached thereto, nor shall he
> ride with his feet removed from the pedals.
>
> I ride an older well maintained road bike with toe clips so the above
> violation I am being accused of does not describe the infraction at all.
> If the police officer shows up, can I assume that since he selected
> the wrong violation that I would win on a technicality?
>
> The ironic thing was that a SUV ran a red light right in front of me
> and this police officer in his squad car while we were both waiting
> for my light to turn green, and he gives me a ticket.
>
> Any constructive comments to fight this ticket are welcomed.
>
> Regards
>
> Joe
>

David Kerber
November 12th 03, 01:48 PM
In article .net>,
says...
> First I want to thank everyone for your comments.
>
> I have one more question.
>
> If I show up and the officer is not there, can I assume that the charges
> will be dismissed.

I don't know; it probably depends on the judge.

> If the officer does show up and I get cold feet, can I change my plea to
> "Guilty" to the charge and just pay the fine?

Yes.

--
Dave Kerber
Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

REAL programmers write self-modifying code.

Don Wiss
November 12th 03, 02:51 PM
On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 13:27:50 GMT, JoeD > wrote:

>If I show up and the officer is not there, can I assume that the charges
>will be dismissed.

No. The judge will often reschedule and give the officer another chance to
show.

Don <donwiss at panix.com>.

slim
November 12th 03, 03:07 PM
"Ken [NY)" wrote:
>
> On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 05:19:04 GMT, (Hi, I'm TV's Oscar
> The Grouch) wrote:
>
> >I'd throw that ticket right in the trash.
> >
> >Why didn't they ticket the SUV?
>
> 1. Perhaps the officer had his eye on the bike rider who was in close
> proximity, and therefore missed the SUV driver's violation?
>
> or
>
> 2. He did see both violations and grabbed the one that was easiest to
> grab. After all, if he had gotten the SUV driver, wouldn't that driver
> be able to say, "Why didn't you ticket the bike rider?"
>
> As to the specific violation you were ticketed for:
> Section 1232. Riding on bicycles.
> (a) A person propelling a bicycle shall not ride other than upon or
> astride a permanent and regular seat attached thereto, nor shall he
> ride with his feet removed from the pedals.
>
> I too use clipless pedals and sometimes have a difficult time
> getting my shoes snapped into the pedals for a few feet. Is that maybe
> what the officer saw?
>
> Some more NYS bike violations info:
>
> COMMON QUESTIONS ABOUT BICYCLE
> AND PEDESTRIAN TRAFFIC LAWS
>
> Which traffic laws apply to bicyclists?
>
> * The same laws that apply to other drivers, with some obvious
> exceptions and special rules, apply to cyclists. Most importantly,
> bicyclists must obey, and are also protected by, the rules of the road
> (Sec. 1231).
> * Bicyclists must obey all traffic lights and signs, and must
> signal for turns whether driving on a roadway, a bike lane or bike
> path. Likewise, motorists must obey the rules of the road with respect
> to bicyclists, including yielding the right-of-way when the law
> requires it, just as they would to another vehicle.
> * Bicyclists who violate the law are subject to traffic tickets.
> Parents can be held responsible for violations by their minor children
> (Sec. 1230).
> http://www.dot.state.ny.us/pubtrans/share.html#1231


Lets not forget the days when Koch had cops giving tickets for
cyclists riding without a bell on the handelbars!

slim
November 12th 03, 03:10 PM
JoeD wrote:
>
> Hi Again,
>
> For those of you that say just pay the fine. I would have paid it if it
> in line with my offense. But they want $100, which I was surprised to
> learn was more the fines for a driver who speed upto 35 miles above the
> limit.
>
> But whether I am innocent or guilty of a minor or major infracture is
> not the issue that I am addressing here.
>
> What I am asking is, if the ticket has a vague violation description as
> described below conflicts with what the officer will accuse me of doing,
> will a "NYC" traffic judge dismiss the charge?
> I was always under the impression that if a traffic ticket (auto or
> bicycle) did not proper identify the violation or was improperly written
> that it would be dismissed.
>
> Again thanks for any constructive opinions.

When you go to court, have a picture with you of your bike, clearly
showing the clips and straps.

Also NEVER give your drivers license as any infractions you are
guilty of while on a bike go on your record.

Get a NY State "non-driver" ID and carry THAT with you when
you ride.

Joseph Santaniello
November 12th 03, 03:11 PM
>> If I show up and the officer is not there, can I assume that the
>> charges will be dismissed.
>
> I don't know; it probably depends on the judge.
>

This is where it is important to be dressed presentably and to be calm,
and not confrontational. All it takes is a few times in traffic court
watching how most people behave to know what is going to make the judge
be sympathetic to you. Most people come off as being the world's
stupidest moron with the world's biggest attitude. If the judge comes
away from it feeling like you are a normal person like him/her you will
do alright. If you seem to be a typical moron/a-hole, forget it.

Remember you are not arguing in front of the Supreme Court. Being all
technical and smarty-pants probably isn't going to help.

Good luck! (And next time don't stop when they try to ticket you!)

Joseph

Don Wiss
November 12th 03, 03:45 PM
On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 15:10:44 GMT, slim > wrote:

>Also NEVER give your drivers license as any infractions you are
>guilty of while on a bike go on your record.

NOT true.

Don <donwiss at panix.com>.

Ken [NY)
November 12th 03, 09:28 PM
On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 02:26:31 GMT, JoeD > wrote:

>I was always under the impression that if a traffic ticket (auto or
>bicycle) did not proper identify the violation or was improperly written
>that it would be dismissed.

As a former police officer, you are correct and when you cross
examine the officer, you should ask what exactly you did that violated
that section. But remember, the law is not an exact science and judges
are not perfect. Yesterday, a guy who freely admitted to killing his
neighbor, cutting up the body into small chunks, and throwing it into
a body of water to conceal it, claimed self defense... and won. Then
there is OJ Simpson, reportedly still searching for the real
killers...on golf courses and in fancy restaurants. :-)

Good luck,
Ken (NY)
Chairman,
Department Of Redundancy Department
___________________________________
email:
http://www.geocities.com/bluesguy68/email.htm

"I regret to say that we of the FBI are
powerless to act in cases of oral-genital
intimacy, unless it has in some way
obstructed interstate commerce."
-- J. Edgar Hoover

Q: What the hardest thing about rollerblading?
A: Telling your parents you’re gay.

Ken [NY)
November 12th 03, 09:34 PM
On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 13:27:50 GMT, JoeD > wrote:

>First I want to thank everyone for your comments.
>
>I have one more question.
>
>If I show up and the officer is not there, can I assume that the charges
>will be dismissed.

No, it can be postponed to a later date.

>If the officer does show up and I get cold feet, can I change my plea to
>"Guilty" to the charge and just pay the fine?

That's two questions, but we are having a sale today, two for
one.
Happened all the time when I was a cop. The violator would see
me and change his plea to guilty. You can change your plea at any time
before trial and even during trial in NY.

Cordially,
Ken (NY)
Chairman,
Department Of Redundancy Department
___________________________________
email:
http://www.geocities.com/bluesguy68/email.htm

"I regret to say that we of the FBI are
powerless to act in cases of oral-genital
intimacy, unless it has in some way
obstructed interstate commerce."
-- J. Edgar Hoover

Q: What the hardest thing about rollerblading?
A: Telling your parents you’re gay.

Ken [NY)
November 12th 03, 09:40 PM
On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 15:11:37 GMT, Joseph Santaniello
> wrote:

>
>>> If I show up and the officer is not there, can I assume that the
>>> charges will be dismissed.
>>
>> I don't know; it probably depends on the judge.
>>
>
>This is where it is important to be dressed presentably and to be calm,
>and not confrontational. All it takes is a few times in traffic court
>watching how most people behave to know what is going to make the judge
>be sympathetic to you. Most people come off as being the world's
>stupidest moron with the world's biggest attitude. If the judge comes
>away from it feeling like you are a normal person like him/her you will
>do alright. If you seem to be a typical moron/a-hole, forget it.
>
>Remember you are not arguing in front of the Supreme Court. Being all
>technical and smarty-pants probably isn't going to help.
>
>Good luck! (And next time don't stop when they try to ticket you!)
>
>Joseph

Good advice! I remember once when we locked up a whole gang of
bikers (The old Aliens MC from Long Island) and at trial in court,
most of us were unable to pick out the violators. The men had gotten
haircuts and wore suits while the biker chicks wore conservative
dresses and heels. For the most part, they acted very polite and it
was difficult to distinguish them from their lawyers. I picked out one
of them because he had a whiney voice I recalled. But most walked.

Cheers,
Ken (NY)
Chairman,
Department Of Redundancy Department
___________________________________
email:
http://www.geocities.com/bluesguy68/email.htm

"I regret to say that we of the FBI are
powerless to act in cases of oral-genital
intimacy, unless it has in some way
obstructed interstate commerce."
-- J. Edgar Hoover

Q: What the hardest thing about rollerblading?
A: Telling your parents you’re gay.

JoeD
November 12th 03, 10:03 PM
Again thanks.

By the way, when I got the ticket I remained calm and a number of times
I even told him that I understand that "he is just doing his job but". I
am hoping that if he does show up, he will not make it difficult for me
so that I can beat this ticket.
I guess it is worth a try.

By All,

Joe

JoeD wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I have been riding around NYC off and on for 30 years. After 9/11, I
> decided to minimize the use of my car and gas consumption, I began
> commuting to work by bike again averaging over 4000 miles a year. I
> consider myself a reasonble and safe rider. I wear a a helmet and have
> blinking lights in the front and back.
> I got my first ticket recently. Although I have never fought a ticket
> before and I want to fight this one.
>
> The ticket describes the infraction as " improper riding of bicycle"
> in violation of section 1232 sub A.
>
> Section 1232. Riding on bicycles.
> (a) A person propelling a bicycle shall not ride other than upon or
> astride a permanent and regular seat attached thereto, nor shall he
> ride with his feet removed from the pedals.
>
> I ride an older well maintained road bike with toe clips so the above
> violation I am being accused of does not describe the infraction at all.
> If the police officer shows up, can I assume that since he selected
> the wrong violation that I would win on a technicality?
>
> The ironic thing was that a SUV ran a red light right in front of me
> and this police officer in his squad car while we were both waiting
> for my light to turn green, and he gives me a ticket.
>
> Any constructive comments to fight this ticket are welcomed.
>
> Regards
>
> Joe
>

Jym Dyer
November 13th 03, 02:59 AM
=v= The less said, the better. Don't offer any information
that's outside the applicability of the ticket you were charged
with ("oh yeah, I was also running red lights and smuggling
drugs, and I didn't see the cop there because I was on my
cellphone doing insider trading with Martha Stewart"). Even
if Usenetters bait you into doing so.
<_Jym_>

Jym Dyer
November 13th 03, 03:07 AM
> When the opposite light turned red I waited for a SUV to
> pass that illegally run the red light (in front of the cop)
> and I then began riding.

=v= The cop is in the wrong for selectively enforcing the law,
especially as the SUV is far more dangerous. But I've already
been chastised for mentioning the 14th Amendment defense, which
I guess doesn't go over as well in NYC like it does in some
parts of the country.

=v= I can see how a red light-running SUV would give you a
reasonable concern for your safety, and how you could've decided
to get yourself out of harm's way, even if it meant "improper
riding of a bicycle." It seems to me you might want to mention
that in court (if true), leaving it up to the judge to make what
he or she will of the officer's failure to ticket the SUV.
<_Jym_>

Jym Dyer
November 13th 03, 03:08 AM
> I find it curious that you don't want to say what you were
> ticketed for, much less whether you actually did it or not.

=v= It's kind of standard operating procedure not to speak
publicly about something that's awaiting trial.
<_Jym_>

Andrew Rakeman
November 13th 03, 05:27 AM
Don Wiss wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 15:10:44 GMT, slim > wrote:
>
>
>>Also NEVER give your drivers license as any infractions you are
>>guilty of while on a bike go on your record.
>
>
> NOT true.
>
> Don <donwiss at panix.com>.

This brings up another point. Do you need to carry photo ID when riding
a bicycle in New York?

I had always thought that you didn't, but the other day I was pulled
over for running a red light northbound on Bowery at Spring (Spring ends
in a T at Bowery). The first thing the officer did was ask for ID. I
initially refused and he gave me the story that if I didn't we'd have to
go the station to figure out who I was. He promised that it would take a
few hours. Eventually I gave in and showed him my work ID (a photo ID).
This wasn't enough for him and he wanted to see a state issued ID, so I
showed my drivers license.

I always thought that in this country you did not have to carry an ID
unless you were doing something that required a license or permit (i.e..
driving). But this cop insisted that I could get a summons for not
having an ID (even for not having $5 on me!). Who is right? If it is the
cop does anyone know the law which states this?

By the way, I didn't get the ticket.

Andrew Rakeman

Christopher R. Law
November 13th 03, 02:28 PM
>I always thought that in this country you did not have to carry an ID
>unless you were doing something that required a license or permit (i.e..
>driving). But this cop insisted that I could get a summons for not
>having an ID (even for not having $5 on me!). Who is right? If it is the
>cop does anyone know the law which states this?

In most states, a police officer has the right to stop anyone who appears to be
in violation of the law and determine the person's identification. According to
the UVC, an officer also has the right to stop any cyclist and do an equipment
check to make sure the bicycle is road legal and safe (i.e. working brakes).

Officers may request that you identify yourself to them in a satisfactory
manner. Certainly since 9/11, they require a photo ID that has your name and
current address and usually want a state issued ID. Company IDs usually don't
have home addresses and many do not even have the company's name. Library cards
don't have photos and school cards don't have home addresses.

This leaves the cyclist in a quandary. The prefered IDs are 1) a drivers
license, 2) a "Green Card" or 3) a passport. Most of us do not carry our
passports and green cards apply only to resident aliens. Underage cyclists or
non-drivers don't have Motor Vehicle Licenses. You can get a state issued ID
from your DMV but I'm not sure if you can get one issued in addition to your
drivers license.

Failing to identify yourself satisfactorially to the officer can cause
problems. He may be content to accept whatever photo ID you have if he can
verify your current address through your land line phone number. Or, he could
really bust your chops (and waste a lot of his time) by taking you to the
police station for further investigation if he feels that you have otherwise
broken some law. Failure to identify yourself is usually insufficent to get you
detained.

Giving your drivers license to the police in a cycling matter can cause
problems. Even though, in most states, a cycling infraction cannot be counted
against your driving record, there are plenty of cases where they have been
held against it. Getting an offense off your driving record involves money,
time and lawyers plus a knowedgeble judge.

The ACLU provides a handy card at:

http://www.aclu.org/library/bustcard.html

Chris Law
Newark, DE

Ken [NY)
November 14th 03, 05:21 PM
On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 05:27:29 GMT, Andrew Rakeman
> wrote:

>This brings up another point. Do you need to carry photo ID when riding
>a bicycle in New York?

No, but not uttering a valid ID does cause some inconvenience
for the defendant and the officer:

>I had always thought that you didn't, but the other day I was pulled
>over for running a red light northbound on Bowery at Spring (Spring ends
>in a T at Bowery). The first thing the officer did was ask for ID. I
>initially refused and he gave me the story that if I didn't we'd have to
>go the station to figure out who I was. He promised that it would take a
>few hours. Eventually I gave in and showed him my work ID (a photo ID).
>This wasn't enough for him and he wanted to see a state issued ID, so I
>showed my drivers license.

It was your choice, identify yourself on the street or be
identified in the station house.

My questions:

1. what did you seriously expect him or her to do, take your word for
who you are?

2. would you complain if asked for ID when boarding a passenger
aircraft? Because they too want to see a valid ID.

Cheers,
Ken (NY)
Chairman,
Department Of Redundancy Department
___________________________________
email:
http://www.geocities.com/bluesguy68/email.htm

"It is a paradoxical truth that tax rates are
too high today and tax revenues are too low
and the soundest way to raise revenues in
the long run is to cut rates now. "
--President John F. Kennedy, speech to NY Economic Club, 1962

Q: What the hardest thing about rollerblading?
A: Telling your parents you’re gay.

Ken [NY)
November 14th 03, 05:24 PM
On 12 Nov 2003 18:59:03 -0800, Jym Dyer > wrote:

>=v= The less said, the better. Don't offer any information
>that's outside the applicability of the ticket you were charged
>with ("oh yeah, I was also running red lights and smuggling
>drugs, and I didn't see the cop there because I was on my
>cellphone doing insider trading with Martha Stewart"). Even
>if Usenetters bait you into doing so.
> <_Jym_>

LOL!


Ken (NY)
Chairman,
Department Of Redundancy Department
___________________________________
email:
http://www.geocities.com/bluesguy68/email.htm

"It is a paradoxical truth that tax rates are
too high today and tax revenues are too low
and the soundest way to raise revenues in
the long run is to cut rates now. "
--President John F. Kennedy, speech to NY Economic Club, 1962

Q: What the hardest thing about rollerblading?
A: Telling your parents you’re gay.

John Forrest Tomlinson
November 14th 03, 07:55 PM
On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 17:21:14 GMT, "Ken [NY)" > wrote:


>
>2. would you complain if asked for ID when boarding a passenger
>aircraft? Because they too want to see a valid ID.

I wish we could complain about that. The fundamental reason that ID is
required on planes is so the airlines can enforce the
non-transferabilty of tickets. They could it in terms of security, but
it's about profit and I wish there was an alternative for consumers
than obeying this rule if they want to fly somewhere.

JT
*******************************************
NB: reply-to address is munged

Visit http://www.jt10000.com
*******************************************

Ed Ravin
November 15th 03, 12:15 AM
From somewhere in cyberspace, slim > said:
>Lets not forget the days when Koch had cops giving tickets for
>cyclists riding without a bell on the handelbars!

Alas, those days have not left us - this ticket is still handed out
from time to time when cops are "cracking down" on those dangerous
bicyclists.


--
[email protected] | Grief can take care of itself; but to get the full
panix.com | value of a joy you must have somebody to divide it with.
| -- Mark Twain

Ed Ravin
November 15th 03, 12:19 AM
From somewhere in cyberspace, slim > said:
>Also NEVER give your drivers license as any infractions you are
>guilty of while on a bike go on your record.

Doesn't matter, the cops or the DMV will look up your record
and see if they can attach it to your license. It depends on
how the cop writes the ticket up - if he writes it up as a violation
that applies specifically to bikes, by definition the violation cannot
go on your motor vehicle driving record.

>Get a NY State "non-driver" ID and carry THAT with you when
>you ride.

You are misinformed - NY State will not issue a "non-driver" ID
to someone who holds a valid NY State driver's license or learners
permit.
--
[email protected] | Grief can take care of itself; but to get the full
panix.com | value of a joy you must have somebody to divide it with.
| -- Mark Twain

Jym Dyer
November 15th 03, 12:31 AM
=v= When then-Governor Pete Wilson was making political hay over
fears of undocumented immigrants, there was some law passed to
require people to carry ID or at produce it within 72 hours.
This was of course immediately abused by the type of police who
hassle citizens based on (esp. racial) profiling.

=v= I went carfree in California and then let my driver's
license expire. Then I started reading about police hassling
bicyclists for their IDs in the Silicon Valley area. (This
was the roadie/Spandex crowd, who generally didn't have pockets
with licenses in them, you see.) I'd also heard of the police
in Berkeley hassling Critical Mass cyclists. (If they didn't
have driver's licenses, they were reported as homeless!)

=v= I started using my passport for ID. It doesn't have an
address on it. I don't know whether that's changed since 9/11.
<_Jym_>

Scott Eiler
November 15th 03, 01:40 AM
Mark Hickey wrote:
> "mark" > wrote:
>
>>No offense, but it sounds like you ran a red light to me.
>
> Yep, 'fraid so. That's clearly illegal, and there's no practical way
> to fight it - you broke a vehicular code, pay the ticket. I also
> agree with the other poster who suggested the cop cut you a break by
> issuing you a ticket on a "semi-nonsensical charge".

But maybe the cop *really* cut you a break by giving you a ticket you
could fight.

> The thing I'm struggling with is that in order to be IN the
> intersection "1 or 2 seconds before your light turns green", you have
> to leave your stopping point even sooner.

At some intersections, it may be a public service for the cyclist to
cross early, so as to be through the light by the time it changes again.
But legally, that's beside the point, and it's best not to bring it
up. The legal question is, can you be found innocent of what the
policeman charged? Just address that one issue, and that'll make the
judge happy.

In any case, I advise you fight the ticket. You have every right to
present your defense (whatever it is) at no added cost to you; that's
what the court is for.

If NYC is anything like Massachusetts, you are entitled to two hearings,
free of charge. You will appear first before a clerk-magistrate. Your
accuser need not appear then. If the magister finds you innocent, the
police representative may appeal, but unless you really annoyed the
accusing officer, this usually doesn't happen. If either party appeals,
there is a second hearing before a judge, where your accuser must appear
in person; if he fails to appear, then you're legally blameless.

As others say, it depends on the judge, but many judges and magisters
*will* declare you innocent if the representative of the police
department can't defend the accusing officer's reasoning. Given the
caseload in most courts, judges and magisters often have better things
to do than to fine you for where your feet were in relation to the pedal.

So, again, I'd go for it. I often have, back before I took up (mostly)
law-abiding bicycle commuting where the police don't worry about bikes.

--
-------- Scott Eiler B{D> -------- http://www.eilertech.com/ --------

"It seemed an unlikely spot for a sensitive songwriter from Greenwich
Village... She ordered the 20-ounce steak."
-- Lin Brehmer, Chicago DJ, describing his meeting in a steakhouse
with Suzanne Vega.

Andrew Rakeman
November 15th 03, 03:02 AM
Ken [NY) wrote:
> On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 05:27:29 GMT, Andrew Rakeman
> > wrote:
>
>
>>This brings up another point. Do you need to carry photo ID when riding
>>a bicycle in New York?
>
> No, but not uttering a valid ID does cause some inconvenience
> for the defendant and the officer:

Ok, inconvenience. Convenience is not worth giving up civil liberties for.

>> SNIP My story about not wanting to show a cop my ID, but being
talked >> into showing it when the cop threatened to detain me.

> It was your choice, identify yourself on the street or be
> identified in the station house.
>
> My questions:
>
> 1. what did you seriously expect him or her to do, take your word for
> who you are?

Maybe not, but my thinking is this. As Americans, we are not required to
carry ID with us. A liberty most of us probably take for granted.
However, that liberty is without value if any of us could be detained
(the "few hours in the station" that the cop threatened me with) for not
carrying an ID when asked to present one.

What if I really did not have ID? Would I be obliged to go "to the
station for a few hours"? What if I was too young to drive and did not
have an ID? Would I still be detained?

> 2. would you complain if asked for ID when boarding a passenger
> aircraft? Because they too want to see a valid ID.

Traveling on public roads and flying on private aircraft are different.

Andrew Rakeman

Don Wiss
November 15th 03, 03:38 AM
On Sat, 15 Nov 2003, Andrew Rakeman > wrote:

>What if I really did not have ID? Would I be obliged to go "to the
>station for a few hours"? What if I was too young to drive and did not
>have an ID? Would I still be detained?

In NYC if you are arrested and you don't have an ID you are held at the
station, or maybe even in central detention, until someone can come and
vouch that you are who you claim to be.

Don <donwiss at panix.com>.

Andrew Rakeman
November 15th 03, 04:36 AM
Don Wiss wrote:

> In NYC if you are arrested and you don't have an ID you are held at the
> station, or maybe even in central detention, until someone can come and
> vouch that you are who you claim to be.

OK, what if you are not arrested, but just stopped for a summons or
questioning? Is it legal to detain someone for not carrying an ID in
that situation?

Andrew

J. Bruce Fields
November 15th 03, 04:04 PM
In article >,
Andrew Rakeman > wrote:
>Ken [NY) wrote:
>> On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 05:27:29 GMT, Andrew Rakeman
>> > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>This brings up another point. Do you need to carry photo ID when riding
>>>a bicycle in New York?
>>
>> No, but not uttering a valid ID does cause some inconvenience
>> for the defendant and the officer:
>
>Ok, inconvenience. Convenience is not worth giving up civil liberties for.

Then you can take the inconvenient route and go hang out at the station
while they try to figure out how else to identify you....

If they don't make reasonably sure that you're who you say they are, then
they risk causing unnecessary grief to whatever random person you've
claimed to be. So they *do* have a responsibility to identify you
correctly, one way or another.

--Bruce Fields

Jym Dyer
November 15th 03, 05:07 PM
=v= When California's then-Governor Pete Wilson was making
political hay over fears of undocumented immigrants, there
was some law passed to require people to carry ID or produce
it within 72 hours. This was of course immediately abused by
the type of police who hassle citizens based on (esp. racial)
profiling.

=v= I went carfree in California and let my driver's license
expire. Then I started reading about police hassling bicyclists
for their IDs in the Silicon Valley area. (This was the roadie/
Spandex crowd, who generally didn't have pockets with licenses
in them, you see.) I'd also heard of the police in Berkeley
hassling Critical Mass cyclists. (If they didn't have licenses,
police reports listed them as homeless!)

=v= I started using my passport for ID. It doesn't have an
address on it. I don't know whether that's changed since 9/11.
<_Jym_>

Ken [NY)
November 15th 03, 05:25 PM
On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 19:55:05 GMT,
(John Forrest Tomlinson) wrote:

>On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 17:21:14 GMT, "Ken [NY)" > wrote:
>
>
>>
>>2. would you complain if asked for ID when boarding a passenger
>>aircraft? Because they too want to see a valid ID.
>
>I wish we could complain about that. The fundamental reason that ID is
>required on planes is so the airlines can enforce the
>non-transferabilty of tickets. They could it in terms of security, but
>it's about profit and I wish there was an alternative for consumers
>than obeying this rule if they want to fly somewhere.

I flew a lot before 9/11, and was not asked for ID. Now you go
through a gauntlet of federal employees who want to see photo ID and
seem to have an unnatural interest in people's shoes. This was not
instituted by corporations but by government bureaucracy in the name
of "security". And believe me, unlike at police traffic stops, nobody
complains to those inspectors, except perhaps under their breath.

Cheers,
Ken (NY)
Chairman,
Department Of Redundancy Department
___________________________________
email:
http://www.geocities.com/bluesguy68/email.htm

"It is a paradoxical truth that tax rates are
too high today and tax revenues are too low
and the soundest way to raise revenues in
the long run is to cut rates now. "
--President John F. Kennedy, speech to NY Economic Club, 1962

Q: What the hardest thing about rollerblading?
A: Telling your parents you’re gay.

Ken [NY)
November 15th 03, 05:42 PM
On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 03:02:02 GMT, Andrew Rakeman
> wrote:

>> My questions:
>>
>> 1. what did you seriously expect him or her to do, take your word for
>> who you are?
>
>Maybe not, but my thinking is this. As Americans, we are not required to
>carry ID with us. A liberty most of us probably take for granted.
>However, that liberty is without value if any of us could be detained
>(the "few hours in the station" that the cop threatened me with) for not
>carrying an ID when asked to present one.

Police still cannot force you to identify yourself, unless
there is an underlying violation of law. That is the difference.
Having said that, there was a time before the 1970s when we
enforced loitering laws in most states. Those laws required people in
public to utter valid identification when demanded to do so by a
police officer. Fortunately, those laws have since been ruled by the
Supreme Court to be unconstitutional and have been repealed. But that
did not remove the right of a police to identify those who have
violated the law so the correct person could be charged.

>What if I really did not have ID? Would I be obliged to go "to the
>station for a few hours"?

Well, yes. Or as long as it would take for your wife to bring
your ID or for your fingerprints to be classified and confirmed
through computer archives. And without either - some adults have never
been fingerprinted - you could be sent to jail after arraignment.
One thing to remember - a ticket is always merely an
invitation to go to court on your own, issued in lieu of arrest. If
the officer does not believe you will report to court - "screw you,
cop, I ain't gonna show up" - or you are not the person you identify
yourself to be, - "I live in Central Park" - he can just lock you up
under the charge.

>What if I was too young to drive and did not
>have an ID? Would I still be detained?

Then you would be taken to the station house, placed in the
Juvenile Aid Bureau office where the JAB detective would call your
parents to respond with valid identification.

>> 2. would you complain if asked for ID when boarding a passenger
>> aircraft? Because they too want to see a valid ID.
>
>Traveling on public roads and flying on private aircraft are different.

Photo ID is required for boarding passenger planes as well as
being issued a ticket by a cop. The effect is the same.

Cordially,
Ken (NY)
Chairman,
Department Of Redundancy Department
___________________________________
email:
http://www.geocities.com/bluesguy68/email.htm

"It is a paradoxical truth that tax rates are
too high today and tax revenues are too low
and the soundest way to raise revenues in
the long run is to cut rates now. "
--President John F. Kennedy, speech to NY Economic Club, 1962

Q: What the hardest thing about rollerblading?
A: Telling your parents you’re gay.

John Forrest Tomlinson
November 15th 03, 10:34 PM
On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 17:25:42 GMT, "Ken [NY)" > wrote:

>On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 19:55:05 GMT,
>(John Forrest Tomlinson) wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 17:21:14 GMT, "Ken [NY)" >
wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>2. would you complain if asked for ID when boarding a passenger
>>>aircraft? Because they too want to see a valid ID.
>>
>>I wish we could complain about that. The fundamental reason that ID
is
>>required on planes is so the airlines can enforce the
>>non-transferabilty of tickets. They could it in terms of security,
but
>>it's about profit and I wish there was an alternative for consumers
>>than obeying this rule if they want to fly somewhere.
>
> I flew a lot before 9/11, and was not asked for ID. Now you go
>through a gauntlet of federal employees who want to see photo ID and
>seem to have an unnatural interest in people's shoes. This was not
>instituted by corporations but by government bureaucracy in the name
>of "security".

You can have a perfectly valid piece of ID (like a US government
passport) showing who you are, and not be on any sort of "watch list"
or have any criminal record. But if the ticket has someone else's name
on it, you can't use it. You could even have the person whose name is
on the ticket vouch for you that he would like you to fly. But you
can't use the ticket. Security? Bull****. It's about profit and
security is the excuse.

The rule has existed for a long time before 9/11. Now security issues
have been piled on top of it. It was enforced less, but it existed
because of the profit motive. What's noteworthy is that, in my
experience, IDs were checked on domestic flights when it was most
likely that passengers might try trading tickets.

JT

David Reuteler
November 15th 03, 10:51 PM
In rec.bicycles.misc John Forrest Tomlinson > wrote:
: The rule has existed for a long time before 9/11. Now security issues
: have been piled on top of it. It was enforced less, but it existed
: because of the profit motive. What's noteworthy is that, in my
: experience, IDs were checked on domestic flights when it was most
: likely that passengers might try trading tickets.

they've since started again but most airlines stopped selling one-way tickets
after 9/11 as well, ostensibly for security reasons (most of the hijackers
were using 1-way tickets) but come on .. i like most people bought 2-ways
and pitched the return (which we couldn't even transfer because as you said,
they won't let you).
--
david reuteler

JoeD
November 16th 03, 04:29 AM
A number of people have mis-quoting me.

I never stated that the the SUV nearly ran me over or that I was waiting
in the intersection.

I waited within the pedestrian crossing watching the SUV running the red
light 25 feet in front of the cross. When he had past the intersection
and the intersection was clear, I proceeded to slowly "run" the red
light 1 second before it turned green. I only do this "illegal"
maneuver, when the road is clear and it is safe for me.

Joe


JoeD wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I have been riding around NYC off and on for 30 years. After 9/11, I
> decided to minimize the use of my car and gas consumption, I began
> commuting to work by bike again averaging over 4000 miles a year. I
> consider myself a reasonble and safe rider. I wear a a helmet and have
> blinking lights in the front and back.
> I got my first ticket recently. Although I have never fought a ticket
> before and I want to fight this one.
>
> The ticket describes the infraction as " improper riding of bicycle"
> in violation of section 1232 sub A.
>
> Section 1232. Riding on bicycles.
> (a) A person propelling a bicycle shall not ride other than upon or
> astride a permanent and regular seat attached thereto, nor shall he
> ride with his feet removed from the pedals.
>
> I ride an older well maintained road bike with toe clips so the above
> violation I am being accused of does not describe the infraction at all.
> If the police officer shows up, can I assume that since he selected
> the wrong violation that I would win on a technicality?
>
> The ironic thing was that a SUV ran a red light right in front of me
> and this police officer in his squad car while we were both waiting
> for my light to turn green, and he gives me a ticket.
>
> Any constructive comments to fight this ticket are welcomed.
>
> Regards
>
> Joe
>

Bill Z.
November 17th 03, 02:31 AM
Anonymous Sender > writes:

> >I went to court when a cop wrote me a ticket for the wrong violation. When
> >I described what I actually did and that I was not guilty of the violation
> >cited, the judge asked the officer why he wrote me for that violation when
> >he should have chosen another. The officer said because that's what he
> >thought was right. The judge let me off.
>
> Simply Brilliant!!

10 years ago someone asked for help on a mailing list. The cyclist was
intimidated about riding on a street with narrow lanes and 40 mph
traffic. I and some others explained the relevant sections of the
vehicle code about narrow lanes, but didn't hold out much hope for her
because she was riding in a center lane reserved for left and right
turning traffic, but where through traffic is not allowed. She
produced some photos of trucks taking up nearly 100 percent of the
lane as evidence that a bicycle and vehicle could not proceed safely
side by side.

She got off because the officer cited her for not riding by the
curb, instead of what any driver would have been cited for: using
a center turn lane as a normal lane.

My guess is that this happens more often than you would think.

Bill

--
My real name backwards: nemuaZ lliB

Ed Ravin
November 17th 03, 04:16 AM
From somewhere in cyberspace, Anonymous Sender > said:
>>I got my first ticket recently. Although I have never fought a ticket
>>before and I want to fight this one.
>
>Easy, go into court early and talk to the DA who will be handling the case.

Ducks Ass? Dead Arnold? Dumb Android? You couldn't mean District
Attorney since there are none in NYC traffic court.
--
[email protected] | Grief can take care of itself; but to get the full
panix.com | value of a joy you must have somebody to divide it with.
| -- Mark Twain

Mark Hickey
November 17th 03, 03:55 PM
JoeD > wrote:

>A number of people have mis-quoting me.
>
>I never stated that the the SUV nearly ran me over or that I was waiting
>in the intersection.
>
>I waited within the pedestrian crossing watching the SUV running the red
>light 25 feet in front of the cross. When he had past the intersection
>and the intersection was clear, I proceeded to slowly "run" the red
>light 1 second before it turned green. I only do this "illegal"
>maneuver, when the road is clear and it is safe for me.

This (IMHO) doesn't make sense.

According to your recount of the events...

1) the van ran the red light blatantly (let's assume that means "only"
one second after the cross traffic light turned red).
2) you watched the van clear the intersection.
3) then you began riding into the intersection
4) and somehow STILL got into the intersection early enough for a cop
to feel you seriously ran a red light

The only way I can imagine that happening is if there's a four-second
delay between one light turning red and the next one turning green...
and I've never noticed that in the many times I've driven in NYC.

Anyone else have anything to add on "typical stoplight timing" in NYC?
My recollection is that the change is almost immediate (maybe IS
immediate - NYC drivers are not the most patient in the world - see
the following joke)...

What is one second divided by 1,000? A millisecond
What is one millisecond divided by 1,000? A microsecond
What is one microsecond divided by 1,000? The amount of time between
a stoplight turning green and the NYC taxi behind you laying on the
horn.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

AMH
November 17th 03, 09:54 PM
JoeD > wrote in message >...
> A number of people have mis-quoting me.
>
> I never stated that the the SUV nearly ran me over or that I was waiting
> in the intersection.
>
> I waited within the pedestrian crossing watching the SUV running the red
> light 25 feet in front of the cross.

I have been told that officers have a more difficult time getting
"convictions" on red light infractions if they can't see the red light
the driver is going through. IE. they need to be behind the driver to
see the condition of the light.

They knew the condition of the light you were going through. You were
the easier ticket to give and make stick.

When he had past the intersection
> and the intersection was clear, I proceeded to slowly "run" the red
> light 1 second before it turned green. I only do this "illegal"
> maneuver, when the road is clear and it is safe for me.

We all do but look out for police when you do it. At least cops in bad
moods.

Best to you and your case,
Andy

>
> Joe
>
>
> JoeD wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I have been riding around NYC off and on for 30 years. After 9/11, I
> > decided to minimize the use of my car and gas consumption, I began
> > commuting to work by bike again averaging over 4000 miles a year. I
> > consider myself a reasonble and safe rider. I wear a a helmet and have
> > blinking lights in the front and back.
> > I got my first ticket recently. Although I have never fought a ticket
> > before and I want to fight this one.
> >
> > The ticket describes the infraction as " improper riding of bicycle"
> > in violation of section 1232 sub A.
> >
> > Section 1232. Riding on bicycles.
> > (a) A person propelling a bicycle shall not ride other than upon or
> > astride a permanent and regular seat attached thereto, nor shall he
> > ride with his feet removed from the pedals.
> >
> > I ride an older well maintained road bike with toe clips so the above
> > violation I am being accused of does not describe the infraction at all.
> > If the police officer shows up, can I assume that since he selected
> > the wrong violation that I would win on a technicality?
> >
> > The ironic thing was that a SUV ran a red light right in front of me
> > and this police officer in his squad car while we were both waiting
> > for my light to turn green, and he gives me a ticket.
> >
> > Any constructive comments to fight this ticket are welcomed.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Joe
> >

Max Watt
November 17th 03, 10:56 PM
Mark Hickey > wrote in message >...
......
> The only way I can imagine that happening is if there's a four-second
> delay between one light turning red and the next one turning green...
> and I've never noticed that in the many times I've driven in NYC.
>
> Anyone else have anything to add on "typical stoplight timing" in NYC?

Sometimes there is a delay.... both lights are red for up to 5
seconds, to give pedestrians a head start. They tupically do this at
school crossings AFTER a kid gets hit by a right-turning car.


> My recollection is that the change is almost immediate (maybe IS
> immediate - NYC drivers are not the most patient in the world - see
> the following joke)...
>



> What is one second divided by 1,000? A millisecond
> What is one millisecond divided by 1,000? A microsecond
> What is one microsecond divided by 1,000? The amount of time between
> a stoplight turning green and the NYC taxi behind you laying on the
> horn.
>
> Mark Hickey
> Habanero Cycles
> http://www.habcycles.com
> Home of the $695 ti frame

dlakey
November 18th 03, 08:47 AM
As many of you know, I recently received a traffic citation for riding my
bicycle on the road here in Jonesboro Arkansas. Well the first thing the
young whipper snapper officer demanded when he got out of his car was my
drivers license. I really wonder what he would have done to me if I hadn't
of produced my drivers licenses. I imagine he would have followed through
with his threats and hauled me to jail for disorderly conduct.

What is happening to our country? As a kid growing up I saw all the TV
shows about The Soviet Union and the Gestapo in Nazi Germany, where someone
would just come up to you and demand you show your "Papers." If you did not
show that your papers were in "proper order" they might just haul you off
and you might never be seen again.

Last time I checked we did have both a fourth and a fifth amendment to the
constitution that read as follows.

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and
effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated,
and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or
affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the
persons or things to be seized.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous
crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in
cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual
service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for
the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be
compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be
deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor
shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.



It really gives a person pause to wonder how much of our civil liberties are
we willing to give up under the guise of improved security.



After all, I was stopped, detained, and threatened for the high crime and
misermeanor of riding my bike on a public road.



Dan

"Andrew Rakeman" > wrote in message
...
> Ken [NY) wrote:
> > On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 05:27:29 GMT, Andrew Rakeman
> > > wrote:
> >
> >
> >>This brings up another point. Do you need to carry photo ID when riding
> >>a bicycle in New York?
> >
> > No, but not uttering a valid ID does cause some inconvenience
> > for the defendant and the officer:
>
> Ok, inconvenience. Convenience is not worth giving up civil liberties for.
>
> >> SNIP My story about not wanting to show a cop my ID, but being
> talked >> into showing it when the cop threatened to detain me.
>
> > It was your choice, identify yourself on the street or be
> > identified in the station house.
> >
> > My questions:
> >
> > 1. what did you seriously expect him or her to do, take your word for
> > who you are?
>
> Maybe not, but my thinking is this. As Americans, we are not required to
> carry ID with us. A liberty most of us probably take for granted.
> However, that liberty is without value if any of us could be detained
> (the "few hours in the station" that the cop threatened me with) for not
> carrying an ID when asked to present one.
>
> What if I really did not have ID? Would I be obliged to go "to the
> station for a few hours"? What if I was too young to drive and did not
> have an ID? Would I still be detained?
>
> > 2. would you complain if asked for ID when boarding a passenger
> > aircraft? Because they too want to see a valid ID.
>
> Traveling on public roads and flying on private aircraft are different.
>
> Andrew Rakeman
>

Ken [NY)
November 18th 03, 06:46 PM
On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 02:47:20 -0600, "dlakey"
> wrote:

>As many of you know, I recently received a traffic citation for riding my
>bicycle on the road here in Jonesboro Arkansas. Well the first thing the
>young whipper snapper officer demanded when he got out of his car was my
>drivers license. I really wonder what he would have done to me if I hadn't
>of produced my drivers licenses. I imagine he would have followed through
>with his threats and hauled me to jail for disorderly conduct.
>
>What is happening to our country? As a kid growing up I saw all the TV
>shows about The Soviet Union and the Gestapo in Nazi Germany, where someone
>would just come up to you and demand you show your "Papers." If you did not
>show that your papers were in "proper order" they might just haul you off
>and you might never be seen again.

The requirement for the police and the courts to positively
identify all law violators before they are charged has been in effect
for as long as this country has existed, and has survived court
challlenges over and over for centuries. Again, a traffic ticket is
merely a written invitation to go to court to be charged with a
violation of the local or state traffic code. It is a courtesy to the
accused in lieu of a summary arrest, nothing more. There is nothing
illegal or unconstitutional about requiring police to be absolutely
certain that the person's name they are issuing a ticket to is the
actual person who they observed violating the law or ordinance.
Now, please spare us the comparisons of the US with fascism or
communism. If this was Nazi Germany or the recently deceased Soviet
Union, we would not be having this debate, and the "final solution" to
your questioning of governmental authority would be a one-way trip to
a gas chamber or a bullet in the back of your head. My grandparents
were citizens of the Soviet Union and had described to us what really
went on in the land of the Gulags.

Cordially,
Ken (NY)
Chairman,
Department Of Redundancy Department
___________________________________
email:
http://www.geocities.com/bluesguy68/email.htm

"It is a paradoxical truth that tax rates are
too high today and tax revenues are too low
and the soundest way to raise revenues in
the long run is to cut rates now. "
--President John F. Kennedy, speech to NY Economic Club, 1962

Q: What the hardest thing about rollerblading?
A: Telling your parents you’re gay.

Ken [NY)
November 18th 03, 06:51 PM
On 17 Nov 2003 13:54:42 -0800, (AMH)
wrote:

>JoeD > wrote in message >...
>> A number of people have mis-quoting me.
>>
>> I never stated that the the SUV nearly ran me over or that I was waiting
>> in the intersection.
>>
>> I waited within the pedestrian crossing watching the SUV running the red
>> light 25 feet in front of the cross.
>
>I have been told that officers have a more difficult time getting
>"convictions" on red light infractions if they can't see the red light
>the driver is going through. IE. they need to be behind the driver to
>see the condition of the light.

Not to nitpick, but courts have allowed the reflection of red
lights on the shades of the lower lights of a traffic control device.
That can be seen from the sides so the officer need not see the actual
red light.

Cordially,
Ken (NY)
Chairman,
Department Of Redundancy Department
___________________________________
email:
http://www.geocities.com/bluesguy68/email.htm

"It is a paradoxical truth that tax rates are
too high today and tax revenues are too low
and the soundest way to raise revenues in
the long run is to cut rates now. "
--President John F. Kennedy, speech to NY Economic Club, 1962

Q: What the hardest thing about rollerblading?
A: Telling your parents you’re gay.

Buck
November 19th 03, 03:40 AM
"Ken [NY)" > wrote in message
...
>
> Not to nitpick, but courts have allowed the reflection of red
> lights on the shades of the lower lights of a traffic control device.
> That can be seen from the sides so the officer need not see the actual
> red light.

Many cities now install a small light on the pole which indicates when the
signal is red. The police can be sitting anywhere in the intersection and
know which lights are red and which are not.

-Buck

Ed Ravin
November 19th 03, 09:59 AM
From somewhere in cyberspace, "dlakey" > said:
>As many of you know, I recently received a traffic citation for riding my
>bicycle on the road here in Jonesboro Arkansas. Well the first thing the
>young whipper snapper officer demanded when he got out of his car was my
>drivers license. I really wonder what he would have done to me if I hadn't
>of produced my drivers licenses. I imagine he would have followed through
>with his threats and hauled me to jail for disorderly conduct.

Inappropriate threats by an officer and stopping you for something that's
legal are grounds for complaint, at least over here in NYC. Though I
suspect you'd get the same results as you would here (i.e. pfuiit), at
least your complaint would go on record and the cop might (but only might)
think twice about harassing the next cyclist he sees. Assuming the
incident was recent enough, I hope you will file a complaint.

BTW, the officer should have accepted alternate forms of ID, not just a
driver's license, assuming you had something on you. I've shown a utility
bill in the past (with my name and address) to a hostile NYC officer for
ID, and it was accepted.
--
[email protected] | Grief can take care of itself; but to get the full
panix.com | value of a joy you must have somebody to divide it with.
| -- Mark Twain

AMH
November 19th 03, 02:39 PM
"Ken [NY)" > wrote in message >...
> On 17 Nov 2003 13:54:42 -0800, (AMH)
> wrote:
>
> >JoeD > wrote in message >...
> >> A number of people have mis-quoting me.
> >>
> >> I never stated that the the SUV nearly ran me over or that I was waiting
> >> in the intersection.
> >>
> >> I waited within the pedestrian crossing watching the SUV running the red
> >> light 25 feet in front of the cross.
> >
> >I have been told that officers have a more difficult time getting
> >"convictions" on red light infractions if they can't see the red light
> >the driver is going through. IE. they need to be behind the driver to
> >see the condition of the light.
>
> Not to nitpick, but courts have allowed the reflection of red
> lights on the shades of the lower lights of a traffic control device.
> That can be seen from the sides so the officer need not see the actual
> red light.

I don't doubt it. But if I were looking to give out tickets I'd opt
for the one with the least to explain if it ends up in court. Of
course this brings up the whole issue of getting the wrong citation in
the first place.

Boils down to this sometimes you can find numerous reasons to choose
one thing or another. And sometimes choosing the team with the colors
you like best will work better in choosing which team to bet on. Cop
saw a situation and made a decision, mayhem ensues.

Andy
>
> Cordially,
> Ken (NY)
> Chairman,
> Department Of Redundancy Department

If you want to be Chairman of the DORD then you really should put (NY,
NY).

> ___________________________________
> email:
> http://www.geocities.com/bluesguy68/email.htm
>
> "It is a paradoxical truth that tax rates are
> too high today and tax revenues are too low
> and the soundest way to raise revenues in
> the long run is to cut rates now. "
> --President John F. Kennedy, speech to NY Economic Club, 1962
>
> Q: What the hardest thing about rollerblading?
> A: Telling your parents you?re gay.

Ken [NY)
November 20th 03, 04:04 PM
On 19 Nov 2003 06:39:23 -0800, (AMH)
wrote:

>> Ken (NY)
>> Chairman,
>> Department Of Redundancy Department
>
>If you want to be Chairman of the DORD then you really should put (NY,
>NY).

Good point.


Ken (NY)
Chairman,
Department Of Redundancy Department
___________________________________
email:
http://www.geocities.com/bluesguy68/email.htm

"When ye encounter the infidels, strike off
their heads till ye have made a great slaughter
among them, and of the rest make fast the
fetters."
--The Muslim Quran
http://www.truthnet.org/islam/Quran/Rodwell/47/

Q: What the hardest thing about rollerblading?
A: Telling your parents you’re gay.

Google

Home - Home - Home - Home - Home