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one of the six billion
July 26th 03, 03:30 AM
Blessings to you and your strength. Blessings to cyclists everywhere that
face those same selfish claims to the road replete with hostility and life
threatening behavior on almost every ride. Blessings to all those people
who don't cycle because of their experience with that mentality. Most of
all blessings to those all over the world who have the "I me mine get out
of my way" mentality so prevalent these days.


"Claire Petersky" > wrote in message
m...
> Dear friends,
>
> I'm going to lay it all out here -- skip the next few paragraphs if
> you don't want all the background information, and realize this is
> going to be a long post.
>
> Recently I attended a barbecue and picnic that our city hosted to
> float out its proposed improvements to West Lake Sammamish Parkway
> (aka, the lake road)(http://www.ci.bellevue.wa.us/press.asp?view=20904).
> The lake road is a relatively flat road that connects the end of the
> Sammamish River Trail, a popular multi-use trail, with the I-90 Trail,
> another multi-use trail that is primarily used by cyclists and is one
> of the primary bike commuter corridors of the region. The lake road is
> shady, has lots of trees, and peak-a-boo views of Lake Sammamish and
> the Cascade mountains.
>
> When I was a kid, Lake Sammamish was a location for little summer
> cabins. Now, there are multi-million dollar chateaux on the lake.
> Lakeside slopes on the other side of the Parkway, originally thought
> too steep to build on, now have fancy homes with views of the lake.
>
> The existing roadway was installed about 50 years ago. Since this
> time, the road bed has been patched here and there. About 20 or 25
> years ago, a bike lane was added on the west side of the street, and
> the idea has been ever since that this lane was to accommodate bike
> traffic going both north and south. The east side of the roadway is a
> mess for cyclists -- deterioriating and patched concrete; uneven and
> cracked pavement, especially near the fog line; illegally parked cars,
> boats, and trailers on the public right-of-way; shoulders that
> suddenly disappear with no warning; a roadway that crumbles at the fog
> line at times, with an immediate gutter and grass (and therefore no
> bail-out room).
>
> Traffic volumes on the road have skyrocketed over the years, as the
> road helps connect suburban homes with the Microsoft Corporate Campus.
> Speeding is endemic. If you are headed north and choose the road over
> wrong-way cycling on the bike lane, you will have people passing you
> on a narrow roadway at 40+ mph. The high motor traffic volumes and
> speeds are potentially deadly to pedestrians. One of my child's
> classmates, an 8 year old boy named Billy, was struck by an SUV this
> last school year while attempting to cross the road to catch a school
> bus. He survived, but still struggles with brain injury-related
> disabilities.
>
> The north end of the lake road runs through the City of Redmond, and I
> assisted in the successful political effort to repave the roadway, and
> create a pedestrian and bicycle facility on the east side of the road.
> These improvements will stop dead now at the City line.
>
> From my perspective, West Lake Sammamish improvements are a
> no-brainer. Right now it looks like the side road to Bubba's Moonshine
> Shack, not a proud boulevard running by multi-million dollar homes. Of
> course the roadway needs to be resurfaced. Of course we need a safer
> environment for cyclists and pedestrians. More traffic means more we
> need to improve the road, not keep it in a deteriorated condition,
> hoping that all those cars, bikes, and pedestrians will just go away.
>
> The bbq was not widely publicized -- it was mainly aimed at people who
> live along the Lake Road, as opposed to spandex-clad activists. I
> found out about it surreptiously. Respecting the City's wishes not to
> rile up the residents attending, generally I did not reveal myself to
> be the chair of the city's Bike-Ped Advisory Group. Instead, I came up
> to people and said things like, "Oh -- do you live on the lake road?
> What are your concerns?"
>
> I was stunned by the unbridled hostility from the lake side residents.
> They hate bicycles. Cyclists don't care about property values.
> Cyclists don't have to ride bikes. They certainly could choose to ride
> somewhere else. Who cares about safety. Safety is not important. No
> children are ever going to want to walk on West Lake Sammamish anyway.
> (Since Billy was struck, that might be true -- how many parents are
> going to have their child catch the school bus on that road these
> days? Hm? They're going to drive that kid in the SUV to school
> instead, doncha think?) Repaving the road will just encourage more
> speeders. Adding a shoulder or bike lane will just encourage more
> speeders. We will hire lawyers. We will fight these improvements tooth
> and nail, and we have the money to be able to do that. The City had
> better watch out.
>
> In sum: we hate bicyclists. We hate pedestrians. We hate anyone using
> the road for any other purpose other than to drive to their lakeside
> or lake view home. And the operative word here is *hate* -- the level
> of emotional venom was bracing.
>
> After the bbq, I felt I needed a decontamination room from absorbing
> so much bad feeling. And this without saying, "hi, I'm a cyclist who
> was an activist regarding the Redmond effort", or "I chair the city's
> bicycle/pedestrian advisory group". This was without stirring up their
> hornets' nest of hostility. When people voiced their feelings, I did
> not do any defense of the proposed improvements, the needs of
> non-motorized transportation, etc. I just listened.
>
> The day and lord knows, the hour will come, when I will not be just
> sitting there politely listening. I will be actively organizing,
> testifying, writing, facilitating. There may have been only a few
> bicycling and pedestrian activists at the bbq, and we kept our profile
> pretty low. There will be scores of them at other fora, just like we
> had in Redmond, and we will speak out.
>
> The prospect of this level of negative emotional energy that I am
> going to provoke is scary for me. I will need to draw on my meditation
> training to keep myself logical, focused, and at the same time,
> compassionate and open-hearted.
>
> Pray for me, friends, pray for me.
>
> Warm Regards,
>
> Claire Petersky )
> Home of the meditative cyclist:
> http://home.earthlink.net/~cpetersky/Welcome.htm
> Singing with you at: http://www.tiferet.net/
> Books just wanna be FREE! See what I mean at:
> http://bookcrossing.com/friend/Cpetersky

Eric S. Sande
July 26th 03, 04:59 AM
>I'm going to lay it all out here --

<snip>

OK, how was the food?

--

_______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________
------------------"Buddy Holly, the Texas Elvis"------------------

Tom Keats
July 26th 03, 06:26 AM
In article >,
(Claire Petersky) writes:

> Adding a shoulder or bike lane will just encourage more
> speeders. We will hire lawyers. We will fight these improvements tooth
> and nail, and we have the money to be able to do that. The City had
> better watch out.

If they can afford lawyers for all that, they surely could afford
to put up for some traffic calming measures, which can be quite
decorative (double-duty as planters, etc). Such beautifications
can actually enhance property values. Better than a shabby,
decrepit old road, anyways.

> In sum: we hate bicyclists. We hate pedestrians. We hate anyone using
> the road for any other purpose other than to drive to their lakeside
> or lake view home. And the operative word here is *hate* -- the level
> of emotional venom was bracing.

Sounds like the old gated community/seige mentality thing, and
hate springing from fear of the "different" people (viz: cyclists
and pedestrians).

The City of Vancouver has addressed such fears as increased speeds,
increased crime and decreased property values along our bike routes,
with an online FAQ for residents along such bike routes. Here's
an excerpt:

(http://www.city.vancouver.bc.ca/engsvcs/transport/cycling/faqresidents.htm_
---
"4.How will a bicycle route affect my street or neighbourhood? Will
crime increase? Will property values decrease?

You likely will not notice much change on your street. For example, we have
observed over 60 cyclists per hour during rush hour on many existing routes
in Vancouver. In comparison, a typical local street may have 100 automobiles
during that same time. Traffic calming measures (such as medians, diverters
and traffic circles) are proposed to reduce non-local car traffic on the
bikeway and are often viewed by residents as positive additions to a
neighbourhood.

Previous studies indicate that property values and crime rates are not
affected by bike routes. Cyclists on bike routes, like commuters in cars,
are generally headed to a specific destination and are not interested in
lingering in neighbourhoods. Unlike automobile commuters, cyclists travel
at slower speeds and may provide an 'eyes on the street' presence in the
neighbourhood."
---

So, maybe these Lake Road residents can be sold on the idea of the
road improvements, with a little, gentle, marketing approach.
Gotta be gentle with scaredy-cats.


cheers,
Tom

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Steve McDonald
July 26th 03, 09:51 AM
The resistance of the mansion-dwellers to bikes near their homes
is due to simple, primitive thinking. They feel that if people on lowly,
cheap vehicles can pass nearby, then their most substantial display of
conspicuous consumption will be degraded. In their minds, their million
dollar plus houses are there to put them at a status level untouchable
by common folk. They're mostly Nouveau Riche-----lots of newly-acquired
money and few of the redeeming qualities of the better types of
humanity.

Don't bother confronting or trying to reason with them, but find
ways to ignore or bypass them. They contribute little to bettering
society outside of their own elitist interests. Figure out how to avoid
pulling their chains too hard and you won't likely hear much from them.

However, if the current bill in Congress to abolish bikepath
funding and rail-conversions passes into law, this type of fat-cat will
score a big one over us and much of what I've said will be moot. There
must be a few hardcore right-wingers out there who are also serious
bicyclists. Can you imagine how confused and frustrated their thinking
processes must be these days?

Steve McDonald

Dennis P. Harris
July 26th 03, 10:55 AM
On 2003-07-25 at 17:23:04 PST Claire Petersky
) wrote:

> The prospect of this level of negative emotional energy that I am
> going to provoke is scary for me.

the answer is easy: seek strength in numbers. organize NOW to
turn out riders from all over the seattle area at the hearing(s).
get the cascade bike clubs advocacy folks working with you to
turn out as many riders as possible.

recruit other cyclists who ride the route to carry flyers with
them and hand them out to all the other cyclists.

finally, do some advance legwork to find out how the city council
and county council members involved stand on the issue. if
necessary, find cyclists close to them (in business, as
acquaintances, or politically) to speak to them personally.

if you can determine the undecided council members, make sure
they get a LOT of mail on the topic (in my past organizing
efforts around community planning issues, i've found that
check-the-box pre-addressed postcards work VERY well, and they
are easy to hand out).

now that you've heard all the bogus arguments, prepare logical
statements to counter the emotional arguments. talk about
fairness. talk about the fact that there's no way to eliminate
the road, so it should be fixed to be safe.

Jym Dyer
July 26th 03, 02:49 PM
> In sum: we hate bicyclists. We hate pedestrians. We hate
> anyone using the road for any other purpose other than to
> drive to their lakeside or lake view home.

=v= The word "impede" derives from putting shackles on feet.
Similarly, the word "expedite" derives from freeing the feet.
Those driving that road are shackled to their polluting beasts
and all that entails, and are insane with rage over those who
are free.
<_Jym_>

Trudi Marrapodi
July 26th 03, 03:02 PM
I think what Claire has run into is your typical people who think, now
that they're wealthy (or maybe because they've always been wealthy), they
can throw money at anything they personally don't like, for whatever
reason, and make it go away.

Sounds like the spoiled brats need to learn a lesson.
--
Trudi
"And, with that cryptic comment, I'm going to bed."
--Mike, Mystery Science Theater 3000
____
Say NO to secret judging and corruption in skating --
support SkateFAIR!
http://www.skatefair.org

Claire Petersky
July 26th 03, 03:11 PM
"Eric S. Sande" > wrote in message >...
> >I'm going to lay it all out here --
>
> <snip>
>
> OK, how was the food?

Grilled weinies, buns, condiments and the usual collection of what our
family terms "hot dog vegetables" (sauerkraut, relish, pickles,
onions); chips; sodas and water. I think watermelon would have been a
nice touch, would have complemented the summertime feel of the event,
would not have significantly added to the expense, and would have
balanced out the junk food on offer. But this is the City paying for
all this free food (and for people who could well afford to pay for
it), so you can't demand too much.

I noticed it was the few cyclists there who were trying to get more
than their allotted share of one weinie.

Warm Regards,


Claire Petersky )
Home of the meditative cyclist:
http://home.earthlink.net/~cpetersky/Welcome.htm
Singing with you at: http://www.tiferet.net/
Books just wanna be FREE! See what I mean at:
http://bookcrossing.com/friend/Cpetersky

Corvus Corvax
July 26th 03, 03:50 PM
(Claire Petersky) wrote
>
> In sum: we hate bicyclists. We hate pedestrians. We hate anyone using
> the road for any other purpose other than to drive to their lakeside
> or lake view home. And the operative word here is *hate* -- the level
> of emotional venom was bracing.

Ah, the sound of cognitive dissonance.

If those people you were talking to were thinking at all clearly, they
would realize that bicycles are not the cause of the anger and
frustration that is boiling up here. But to face the real cause would
require them to question their own choices. This only serves to
increase the venom leveled at the chosen scapegoat. The hostility
toward cyclists and peds, the SUV craze, the gated community thing,
all of these are signs of an embattled, terrified society. The more
frightened they become, the more irrational and hostile their denial
becomes. Look at that nitwit from California on the "Share the Road"
thread who's convinced that cycling will cause billions of dollars in
economic damage. Or suburban homeowners who band together to angrily
protest when the city wants to install sidewalks on their streets.

It's an unfortunate fact, but every time you throw your leg over a
bicycle it's a political act. Simply by being there, you challenge the
structure of illusion by which such people justify their entire
lives. It's a measure of how ****ed up our culture is that simply
riding a bicycle is a subversive act.

> The day and lord knows, the hour will come, when I will not be just
> sitting there politely listening. I will be actively organizing,
> testifying, writing, facilitating.

Give 'em hell.

CC

Claire Petersky
July 26th 03, 03:53 PM
(Dennis P. Harris) wrote in message >...
> On 2003-07-25 at 17:23:04 PST Claire Petersky
> ) wrote:
>
> > The prospect of this level of negative emotional energy that I am
> > going to provoke is scary for me.
>
> the answer is easy: seek strength in numbers.

Actually, we have strength in numbers. We got 500+ people to join
Friends of Lake Sammamish (http://www.lakesammfriends.org/) as a part
of the Redmond effort. We had dozens of people for every Redmond City
Council meeting ready to testify. The Redmond City Council requested
us to please, please, please *stop* all the damn letters and emails
because they were being snowed under by all the people (primarily
bicyclists, some pedestrians) contacting them in support of the
project.

One of the things that was very helpful was having *local* residents
speak on the behalf of the project. As a Bellevue resident, I mostly
kept my mouth shut publicly, and having a Seattle person speak would
have been at best neutral.

One thing that will help is that out of my forty-ahem years of life,
all but ten of them have been spent as a Bellevue resident. You know
about the popsicle index? It's a measure of the quality of life for a
community, and it works like this: it's the percentage of people who
would feel comfortable sending their kid to the local convenience
store to buy a popsicle. When I was a kid, my best friend lived on the
lake (when normal people could afford to live on the lake), and we'd
walk from her house to the Little Store to buy popsicles. I can tell
that story, and ask, what's the popsicle index for that road today?
Outside agitators, especially spandex clad and from Seattle, are
highly, highly suspicious. If you say you are a local resident, when
you come in with your kids, when you talk about safety for your
children, not just yourself -- these are winners.

What would be great would be to find a lakeside resident willing to
speak on the behalf of the project, but peer pressure is very great.
On the Redmond project we had lakeside residents tell us privately
that they supported the City's improvements, but didn't dare say
anything because they have to live next door to all these people for
the rest of their lives, and don't want to stick their necks out.

I am fairly confident about having the numbers, but that doesn't mean
that I won't be a target for all this hostility. In fact, the more
numbers, the more we'll of course rile them all up.

These improvements were floated about 8 or 10 years ago, and there was
a huge firestorm, and the whole thing was abandoned. The city planner
associated with the project quit. The advocates on our bike-ped group
who lived through it back then all say they want nothing to do with it
this time.

> finally, do some advance legwork to find out how the city council
> and county council members involved stand on the issue. if
> necessary, find cyclists close to them (in business, as
> acquaintances, or politically) to speak to them personally.

The mayor does a little recreational riding herself, which is more
than you could usually hope for.

> now that you've heard all the bogus arguments, prepare logical
> statements to counter the emotional arguments. talk about
> fairness. talk about the fact that there's no way to eliminate
> the road, so it should be fixed to be safe.

They wouldn't want to *eliminate* the road, just put gates on either
end of it, and keep the non-residents out.

As for the arguments, they're pretty clear: enhance property values,
increase safety for everyone (bicycles and peds, sure, but also
motorists too), support cycling to *reduce* the numbers of cars that
are commuting (the residents on the road consider car commuters to be
close to agents of the Dark Lord).

Yes, we don't have to ride our bikes past their homes. If rb*'s own
Dane didn't ride his bike past their houses on his way to work, he
might be driving his car. If I didn't take my kids on our tandem on
the bike lane on that road on the weekend, maybe I'd be driving past
their house, driving ourselves to a different location to ride bikes.
Who makes a smaller impact -- more cars or our bikes?

The argument I don't have is that widening the roadway for the bike
lane will steepen already very steep driveways. Basically, people have
built homes on slopes that are nearly clifflike. If you make a larger
flat area where the road is, some people's driveways will get even
steeper. It's physically the only way it can work. Already,
firefighters can't get their trucks up and down these driveways. They
have to connect hoses from the road to be able to reach the homes,
either up from the road or down from the road. They can connect hoses
very fast -- that's their job -- but considering how long these
driveways are, it may not be fast enough. One family's fancy house
burnt to the ground because the driveway was too steep for the fire
trucks.

My gut feeling is, it's your own damn fault for buying a house on a
slope that shouldn't have been built on in the first place. Erosion
and its results have damaged the ecology of the whole area. Your
trade-off for your great view may be an increased risk of having the
thing burn to a cinder -- live with it. But I can't say that, now can
I? After all, the counter is: you enjoy riding your bike, you have the
increased risk of being whacked by cars -- live with it.

Warm Regards,

Claire Petersky )
Home of the meditative cyclist:
http://home.earthlink.net/~cpetersky/Welcome.htm
Singing with you at: http://www.tiferet.net/
Books just wanna be FREE! See what I mean at:
http://bookcrossing.com/friend/Cpetersky

Marc VanHeyningen
July 26th 03, 04:23 PM
Thus said (Tom Keats):
>In article >,
> (Claire Petersky) writes:
>> Adding a shoulder or bike lane will just encourage more
>> speeders. We will hire lawyers. We will fight these improvements tooth
>> and nail, and we have the money to be able to do that. The City had
>> better watch out.
>
>If they can afford lawyers for all that, they surely could afford
>to put up for some traffic calming measures, which can be quite
>decorative (double-duty as planters, etc).

We're not talking about a residential street here, but a road where
traffic calming isn't appropriate. It was a significant road before
they built their houses there.

>> In sum: we hate bicyclists. We hate pedestrians. We hate anyone using
>> the road for any other purpose other than to drive to their lakeside
>> or lake view home. And the operative word here is *hate* -- the level
>> of emotional venom was bracing.

Sounds like the equivalent of people who buy a house near the airport
and then start complaining about the noise. Fortunately, for every 1
rich snob who doesn't want the road he lives in improved, there are
probably 100 other rich snobs who do want it improved so they can drive
down it faster on their way from one sterile-Eastside-location to
another.

Also, we can take delight in the fact that, the next time there's a good
heavy rain, their lake-view house will become a lake-floating-in-the
house. And they'll sue the city over that too, claiming it was the
city's own fault for letting them build somewhere that the slope is
unstable.

cyclist101
July 26th 03, 04:45 PM
Corvus Corvax wrote:
> (Claire Petersky) wrote
>
>>In sum: we hate bicyclists. We hate pedestrians. We hate anyone using
>>the road for any other purpose other than to drive to their lakeside
>>or lake view home. And the operative word here is *hate* -- the level
>>of emotional venom was bracing.
>
> Ah, the sound of cognitive dissonance.
>
> If those people you were talking to were thinking at all clearly, they
> would realize that bicycles are not the cause of the anger and
> frustration that is boiling up here. But to face the real cause would
> require them to question their own choices. This only serves to
> increase the venom leveled at the chosen scapegoat.

You mean like "SUV craze" and "gated community thing" and "embattled,
terrified society"? What's wrong with *others* having freedoms to drive
what they want, live where and how they want, etc.?

> The hostility
> toward cyclists and peds, the SUV craze, the gated community thing,
> all of these are signs of an embattled, terrified society. The more
> frightened they become, the more irrational and hostile their denial
> becomes. Look at that nitwit from California on the "Share the Road"
> thread who's convinced that cycling will cause billions of dollars in
> economic damage. Or suburban homeowners who band together to angrily
> protest when the city wants to install sidewalks on their streets.

Neighborhoods should be free to determine their own destiny. They have
property values to protect. They live there. Why should they be
subjected to intrusions or mandates from others who don't live there?

> It's an unfortunate fact, but every time you throw your leg over a
> bicycle it's a political act. Simply by being there, you challenge the
> structure of illusion by which such people justify their entire
> lives. It's a measure of how ****ed up our culture is that simply
> riding a bicycle is a subversive act.

That's rank hyperbole.

>>The day and lord knows, the hour will come, when I will not be just
>>sitting there politely listening. I will be actively organizing,
>>testifying, writing, facilitating.
>
> Give 'em hell.

All interests are better solved by finding an acceptable middle ground.
Giving hell doesn't solve problems, it only creates more of them.

Eric S. Sande
July 26th 03, 05:14 PM
>Giving hell doesn't solve problems, it only creates more of them.

This reminds me of the "Klingle Road dispute" (type that into a
search engine for details) in the other Washington.

--

_______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________
------------------"Buddy Holly, the Texas Elvis"------------------

Tom Keats
July 26th 03, 05:57 PM
In article >,
(Claire Petersky) writes:

> But this is the City paying for
> all this free food (and for people who could well afford to pay for
> it), so you can't demand too much.

Can't argue about free growlies.
But I can't help being reminded of the Simpsons episode where
Homer is lured into Perdition by the aroma of BBQ, only to be
inevitably disappointed:

"Aw, they're out of hot dogs.

And the coleslaw has pineapple in it!

Aghhh!! /German/ potato salad!"


cheers,
Tom

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Marc VanHeyningen
July 26th 03, 06:23 PM
Thus said cyclist101 >:
>Neighborhoods should be free to determine their own destiny. They have
>property values to protect. They live there. Why should they be
>subjected to intrusions or mandates from others who don't live there?

This isn't a neighborhood. It's a parkway, a major through road which
was originally built along a lakeshore. Then, much later, people built
a few houses along it. That doesn't suddenly give them exclusive rights
to decide what happens to important public arterials.

Brian Huntley
July 26th 03, 06:49 PM
Here in Toronto, we've recently had a 'win' in this department. City
council was wise enough to avoid an attempt to overturn a key component
of the official bicycle plan - a bike lane on Dundas Street East.

One unusual sounding part of the debate was that it was the residents
and business community along the street that wanted the bike lane -
which will reduce the 4 lane street into two car lanes plus two bike
lanes and parking. I believe the parking will be all day, rather than
only available outside of rush hours, hence the business' support.

The Toronto Star opposed the bike lane, but admits the traffic flow is
currently at 70 kph (~45 mph) despite being posted at 40 kph (25 mph.)
They opine the traffic may return to near-legal speeds once the bike
lanes are in place.

The attempted derailing of the plan would have had further reaching
implications as well, as it would have made all such proposals go to the
city works committee, rather than the community councils that may
approve them now. This would have stopped all of this years changes, and
saddlebagged all future ones with an extra layer of bureaucracy.

- Brian Huntley

Zoot Katz
July 26th 03, 07:59 PM
Sat, 26 Jul 2003 11:38:55 -0500,
>,
Kevan Smith /\/\> wrote:
\szip
>I don't even think about eating hot dogs unless I can have at least three. One
>per person? Sheesh. That's just teasing.

One tofu veggie dog is sufficient for me, thanks.
--
zk

Patrick Lamb
July 26th 03, 09:26 PM
Claire Petersky wrote:
> Traffic volumes on the road have skyrocketed over the years, as the
> road helps connect suburban homes with the Microsoft Corporate Campus.
> Speeding is endemic. If you are headed north and choose the road over
> wrong-way cycling on the bike lane, you will have people passing you
> on a narrow roadway at 40+ mph. The high motor traffic volumes and
> speeds are potentially deadly to pedestrians. One of my child's
> classmates, an 8 year old boy named Billy, was struck by an SUV this
> last school year while attempting to cross the road to catch a school
> bus. He survived, but still struggles with brain injury-related
> disabilities.
>
> I was stunned by the unbridled hostility from the lake side residents.
> They hate bicycles. Cyclists don't care about property values.
> Cyclists don't have to ride bikes. They certainly could choose to ride
> somewhere else. Who cares about safety. Safety is not important. No
> children are ever going to want to walk on West Lake Sammamish anyway.
> (Since Billy was struck, that might be true -- how many parents are
> going to have their child catch the school bus on that road these
> days? Hm? They're going to drive that kid in the SUV to school
> instead, doncha think?) Repaving the road will just encourage more
> speeders. Adding a shoulder or bike lane will just encourage more
> speeders. We will hire lawyers. We will fight these improvements tooth
> and nail, and we have the money to be able to do that. The City had
> better watch out.
>
> In sum: we hate bicyclists. We hate pedestrians. We hate anyone using
> the road for any other purpose other than to drive to their lakeside
> or lake view home. And the operative word here is *hate* -- the level
> of emotional venom was bracing.

Just out of curiosity, has anyone surveyed the area for the density of
Asperger's Syndrome-afflicted residents? It sounds to me as though this
should be a support group, instead of a city-sponsored barbecue. (If AS
support group isn't already an oxymoron!)

Or maybe you just need to get Microsoft's marketing department (or billg
himself) to decide they need to back up the bicycle lanes. Sounds like
this crowd cannot or will not listen to anybody but themselves.

Oh what the heck, we haven't had a good flame war in, what, twenty
minutes? Just remember these are the same people who made Microsoft a
byword for secure programming, customer responsiveness, and timely
delivery of new, high-quality, products.

(I should guess that there's probably a high proportion of residents, if
it is a MS suburb, that's getting to middle age and finding it difficult
to keep up with the endless 20-hour work days, enormous pressure, and
unrealistic deadlines. And if they've been there long enough to buy the
multi-million houses with the proceeds of stock options, they probably
don't know or don't remember that sane work places exist. Or that it's
possible to work AND have a life...)

Pat
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Zippy the Pinhead
July 26th 03, 11:43 PM
On 26 Jul 2003 07:50:33 -0700, (Corvus Corvax)
wrote:


>
>It's an unfortunate fact, but every time you throw your leg over a
>bicycle it's a political act.

Oh, bull****.

Get over yourself.

Tom Keats
July 27th 03, 12:11 AM
In article >,
(Marc VanHeyningen) writes:
> Thus said (Tom Keats):
>>In article >,
>> (Claire Petersky) writes:
>>> Adding a shoulder or bike lane will just encourage more
>>> speeders. We will hire lawyers. We will fight these improvements tooth
>>> and nail, and we have the money to be able to do that. The City had
>>> better watch out.
>>
>>If they can afford lawyers for all that, they surely could afford
>>to put up for some traffic calming measures, which can be quite
>>decorative (double-duty as planters, etc).
>
> We're not talking about a residential street here, but a road where
> traffic calming isn't appropriate. It was a significant road before
> they built their houses there.

That's pretty much what I understood from Claire's post, wherein
I noted the residents mentioned they were worried about these
proposed improvements encouraging more speeders. But just about
any road can be traffic calmed to a degree, with speed humps/bumps,
decorative islands and suchlike. Even letting pavement go fallow
(as seems to be the case here) is a form of traffic calming, albeit
an ugly one. But I think the residents' concerns about "speeders"
is just an excuse to be against the proposed improvements. That
would be rather ironic, since it seems to be a real issue.

With the example I posted, my intent was not to describe any specific
approaches such as traffic calming, but rather how change can be
nicely introduced to a hesitant or resistant constituency. Claire's
obviously already on top of that. As she notes in a subsequent post:
"What would be great would be to find a lakeside resident willing to
speak on the behalf of the project, but peer pressure is very great."
Mighty dam-breaks from tiny hairline cracks spring. Not everybody
all at once needs to be convinced, to get things moving. Consensus
building often starts with a single cornerstone of somebody being
on-side.

But it looks like convincing this community is going to be a delicate
diplomatic balancing act. And the last thing needed here would be
vocal, militant, self-styled "advocates" queering the deal. Claire
gets a tip o' the hat from me, for her exercising great restraint at
this BBQ function. I think I would have been strongly tempted to
emphatically blurt my opinions in such a scenario. And that would
probably have counter-productive results.

> Sounds like the equivalent of people who buy a house near the airport
> and then start complaining about the noise.

I had the same thought. Great minds think alike :-)


cheers,
Tom

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Patrick Lamb
July 27th 03, 02:08 AM
On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 11:33:21 -0500, Kevan Smith
/\/\> wrote:

>On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 15:45:55 GMT, cyclist101 > from Road Runner -
>Texas wrote:
>
>>Neighborhoods should be free to determine their own destiny. They have
>>property values to protect. They live there. Why should they be
>>subjected to intrusions or mandates from others who don't live there?
>
>Streets are usually public. If they want private roads, they can pay for them on
>their own. But I don't think they'll be wanting to buy a highway, even if they
>were allowed.

I know of one exception, the former main street through Linville, N.C.
Wealthy, mostly summer, residents didn't want all the riff-raff riding
through their town, so they bought land for a bypass and built the
highway. Much nicer road than the old one, although less
convenient...

Pat

Chris B.
July 27th 03, 03:12 AM
On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 17:49:36 GMT, Brian Huntley >
wrote:

>Here in Toronto, we've recently had a 'win' in this department. City
>council was wise enough to avoid an attempt to overturn a key component
>of the official bicycle plan - a bike lane on Dundas Street East.

I don't know who 'we' is, I think this is terrible news. I consider
Dundas St. the best East-West thoroughfare south of the Danforth.

>One unusual sounding part of the debate was that it was the residents
>and business community along the street that wanted the bike lane -
>which will reduce the 4 lane street into two car lanes plus two bike
>lanes and parking. I believe the parking will be all day, rather than
>only available outside of rush hours, hence the business' support.

Ah yes, yet another Toronto bike lane placed in the door zone. For
safety! Almost every bike lane in Toronto is like this and "Cycling
Advocates" petition for more of them!

The amazing thing is that the curb lane along Dundas East is rather
narrow. I can't imagine that there would be space for even the door
zone design unless the street is widened.

Even more strange to me is this talk about the businesses (who would
be supporting the parking rather than the bike lane) as when I ride on
Dundas East it is immediately obvious that there are proportionally
few businesses along Dundas St. once you get away from Broadview St
(Chinatown).

>The Toronto Star opposed the bike lane, but admits the traffic flow is
>currently at 70 kph (~45 mph) despite being posted at 40 kph (25 mph.)
>They opine the traffic may return to near-legal speeds once the bike
>lanes are in place.

They can't be serious. This is why door-zone bike lanes should be
implemented?

>The attempted derailing of the plan would have had further reaching
>implications as well, as it would have made all such proposals go to the
>city works committee, rather than the community councils that may
>approve them now. This would have stopped all of this years changes, and
>saddlebagged all future ones with an extra layer of bureaucracy.

I am now, and for a while have been of the opinion that "Cycling
Advocates", at least those in Toronto, are the greatest danger to
those who are capable of and who actually want to just go ride their
bikes on the street.

--

Chris Bird

Chalo
July 27th 03, 06:37 AM
(Claire Petersky) wrote:

(Paraphrasing Seattle-area suburban crackers)
> In sum: we hate bicyclists. We hate pedestrians. We hate anyone using
> the road for any other purpose other than to drive to their lakeside
> or lake view home. And the operative word here is *hate* -- the level
> of emotional venom was bracing.

The Eastside is lost, Claire. There really isn't anything there worth
trying to improve. That area suffers the characteristic blight of
many suburbs; it's an anti-community of people who chose their place
of residence based on what they were trying to avoid, rather than on
an environment they wanted to be a part of. It's a living testament
to how fear, greed, arrogance and hate are antithetical to right
action.

Move into town; you'll recognize a lot more rational human beings
around you.

Chalo Colina

Tom Keats
July 27th 03, 10:50 AM
In article >,
Jym Dyer > writes:
>> In sum: we hate bicyclists. We hate pedestrians. We hate
>> anyone using the road for any other purpose other than to
>> drive to their lakeside or lake view home.
>
> =v= The word "impede" derives from putting shackles on feet.
> Similarly, the word "expedite" derives from freeing the feet.

But a pediatrician isn't a foot doctor :-)

> Those driving that road are shackled to their polluting beasts
> and all that entails, and are insane with rage over those who
> are free.

Naw, they're just scared they'll lose sumpthin'. They just need
to be tactfully/tactically informed/convinced of what they'd gain.

And the community stands to gain much, if they'd just open their
eyes & minds. A well-implemented presentation of the proposals
oughta fix that. If it doesn't, maybe the City should just narrow
the road just wide enough for two oncoming bicycles to safely pass
each other? Hardpack in lieu of asphalt or concrete pavement would
be more envrio-friendly.

OTOH, you're right -- drivers can be nutz.

I wonder if there are any Native land claims on this area.


cheers,
Tom

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Trudi Marrapodi
July 27th 03, 04:07 PM
In article >, (Tom
Keats) wrote:

> In article >,
> (Claire Petersky) writes:
>
> > But this is the City paying for
> > all this free food (and for people who could well afford to pay for
> > it), so you can't demand too much.
>
> Can't argue about free growlies.
> But I can't help being reminded of the Simpsons episode where
> Homer is lured into Perdition by the aroma of BBQ, only to be
> inevitably disappointed:
>
> "Aw, they're out of hot dogs.
>
> And the coleslaw has pineapple in it!
>
> Aghhh!! /German/ potato salad!"

Too bad Homer didn't know that German potato salad is God's potato salad!
Mmmmm...bacon.
--
Trudi
"And, with that cryptic comment, I'm going to bed."
--Mike, Mystery Science Theater 3000
____
Say NO to secret judging and corruption in skating --
support SkateFAIR!
http://www.skatefair.org

Mike Kruger
July 28th 03, 02:40 AM
"Kevan Smith" /\/\> wrote in message
>
> >I noticed it was the few cyclists there who were trying to get more
> >than their allotted share of one weinie.
>
> I don't even think about eating hot dogs unless I can have at least three.
One
> per person? Sheesh. That's just teasing.

Our local club has an annual "hot dog ride", which involves rest stops at
SuperDawg, Mustard's Last Stand, and similar places. I think there's a prize
for the most hot dogs eaten. Sounds like just your type of social ride.

Eric S. Sande
July 28th 03, 03:01 AM
>A minor correction, though. There's no "We" -- they often don't like
>each other much, either.

Sounds by the lake.

>For example, either their neighbors are assholes who make too much
>noise, or their neighbors are assholes who call the police if they
>play music on the patio above a whisper.

Well, they aren't here to take objection.

I know what my strategy would be, Claire doesn't need any guidance,
and I'm afraid the people in question are going to have to deal
with their driveways.

As Kevan says the public right of way trumps private interest in
this case.

--

_______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________
------------------"Buddy Holly, the Texas Elvis"------------------

Peter
July 28th 03, 04:32 AM
Kevan Smith wrote:

>>Our local club has an annual "hot dog ride", which involves rest stops at
>>SuperDawg, Mustard's Last Stand, and similar places. I think there's a prize
>>for the most hot dogs eaten. Sounds like just your type of social ride.
>
>
> Where and when is it? I'll go into training today. Do they have one for donuts,
> too? I think I can sweep all your club trophies.

We had the latter on our ride schedule at the Jersey Shore Touring Society
club. It was the "Freedman's to Freedman's to Freedman's ... Ride" with an
award to the participant who consumed the most donuts at the 7(?)
Freedman's Bakeries along the way.

Pete
July 28th 03, 04:57 AM
"Chris B." > wrote

> Ah yes, yet another Toronto bike lane placed in the door zone. For
> safety! Almost every bike lane in Toronto is like this and "Cycling
> Advocates" petition for more of them!

There are far more ways of doing bike lanes wrong, than doing them right.
And the engineers seem to be hellbent on finding every oneof thse wrong
ways.

Pete

Tom Keats
July 28th 03, 05:58 AM
In article >,
"Pete" > writes:
>
> "Chris B." > wrote
>
>> Ah yes, yet another Toronto bike lane placed in the door zone. For
>> safety! Almost every bike lane in Toronto is like this and "Cycling
>> Advocates" petition for more of them!
>
> There are far more ways of doing bike lanes wrong, than doing them right.
> And the engineers seem to be hellbent on finding every oneof thse wrong
> ways.

I don't think it's so much a matter of what city engineers want,
as it is city council trying to effect compromises to placate
diverse special interests (especially including drivers), while
still going ahead with some sort of plan and being seen to be "doing
something about it".

It may well have been that the engineers proposed a wonderful plan,
before politicians diluted and perverted it. That's how it seems
to go around here, anyways. That's why we've gotta aim high when
we lobby for cycling improvements. The lower we aim, the less we
ultimately get.


cheers,
Tom

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Hunrobe
July 28th 03, 07:20 AM
>Kevan Smith /\/\

wrote in part:

>Do they have one for donuts,
>too? I think I can sweep all your club trophies.

Think again, pal. I'm close enough to Mike K's area that I could be your
competition and only a fool would bet against a cop in a donut eating contest.
I've been training diligently for 20 years. ;-)

Regards,
Bob Hunt

archer
July 28th 03, 01:10 PM
In article >, says...
> In article >,
> (Trudi Marrapodi) writes:
>
> > Too bad Homer didn't know that German potato salad is God's potato salad!
> > Mmmmm...bacon.
>
> Sounds better than what I've seen passed off as German potato salad --
> basically, cold potatoes soused a little with vinegar. But does God
> really eat bacon? And what does She have to say about coleslaw with
> pineapple in it?

"It's all good if somebody likes it!"



> I'd love to fire up the barbecue right now, myself -- just for
> an excuse to make a shrimp & avacado aspic to go with it, deliciously
> presented with an underlay of iceberg lettuce leaves and mayo.
> Jerk chicken, and portobello mushroom ka-bobs. And two kinds of
> potato salad ;-) And coleslaw sans pineapple (or raisins, for
> that matter.) And watermelon. Maybe even a casaba. And all kinds
> of pickles and cold cuts, and a couple of cheeses.
>
> Sometimes I wish I could cater group rides, just to give a break
> to those groups who usually just get hot dogs and PBJ samwidges.
> Maybe a cargo pedicab with some sort of alt-energy refrigeration
> unit could make a viable chuckwagon.
>
>
> cheers,
> Tom
>
>

--
David Kerber
An optimist says "Good morning, Lord." While a pessimist says "Good
Lord, it's morning".

Remove the ns_ from the address before e-mailing.

Larry Schuldt
July 28th 03, 05:37 PM
On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 11:59:30 -0700, Zoot Katz >
wrote:

>>
>One tofu veggie dog is sufficient for me, thanks.

That would be more than enough for me.

larry
--
To reply by e-mail, be polite. Rudeness will get you nowhere.

Dave Jackson
July 28th 03, 08:13 PM
In article >,
(Claire Petersky) wrote:

>
> Pray for me, friends, pray for me.
>

You got it Claire!

Dave in Minnesota

Claire Petersky
July 29th 03, 03:04 AM
I'm hanging this off of Tom's post, but it's sort of a longish reply
to a number of them...

(Steve McDonald) wrote in message >...
> The resistance of the mansion-dwellers to bikes near their homes
> is due to simple, primitive thinking. They feel that if people on lowly,
> cheap vehicles can pass nearby, then their most substantial display of
> conspicuous consumption will be degraded.

Actually, generally speaking, you can't see these people's houses. The
steep slope and number of trees between the road and the where the
houses sit on the lake or up on the hill means that they are hidden.

> Don't bother confronting or trying to reason with them, but find
> ways to ignore or bypass them.

The real audience is the City Council. But if the City Council does
not want discord when the recommendation is presented to them that
would be unseemly. They want all the yelling to happen before that
time. If we can't compromise, nothing will be done. The road will
continue to deteriorate; unsafe conditions will only worsen for
everyone.

(Trudi Marrapodi) wrote in message >...
> I think what Claire has run into is your typical people who think, now
> that they're wealthy (or maybe because they've always been wealthy), they
> can throw money at anything they personally don't like, for whatever
> reason, and make it go away.
>
> Sounds like the spoiled brats need to learn a lesson.

Which is why, when we won in Redmond, the mayor of the City of
Woodinville wrote a letter in congratulations to the Redmond City
Council, for standing up to the wealthy lakeside homeowners. I'm don't
know if our council has similar balls.

When I asked a parkway resident what alternative the cars should take,
rather than the parkway, the answer was 164th Avenue, ie, mostly a
neighborhood of these little 1950s starter home ramblers that probably
have the lowest housing values in our city. I was sorely tempted to
ask why people who live right on a road (rather than having major
set-backs with a big curtain of trees) should have all the cars
whizzing by, but again, this was my time to listen, not argue.

Patrick Lamb > wrote in message >...

> Just out of curiosity, has anyone surveyed the area for the density of
> Asperger's Syndrome-afflicted residents? It sounds to me as though this
> should be a support group, instead of a city-sponsored barbecue. (If AS
> support group isn't already an oxymoron!)

Y'know, I have some AS members of my immediate and extended family,
and I'd much rather deal with Aspies than deal with this crowd. My
experience with Aspies is that they have no hidden agenda what you
see is what you get and ones I know are terribly concerned with
fairness. I could work with Aspies.

> (I should guess that there's probably a high proportion of residents, if
> it is a MS suburb, that's getting to middle age and finding it difficult
> to keep up with the endless 20-hour work days, enormous pressure, and
> unrealistic deadlines. And if they've been there long enough to buy the
> multi-million houses with the proceeds of stock options, they probably
> don't know or don't remember that sane work places exist. Or that it's
> possible to work AND have a life...)

I will just note that I believe that people who live along the lake
are generally not Microsofties, nor do Microsofties live along the
lake. Rather, it is the Microsoft employees who are targeted here as
the Evil Ones who speed along the parkway, desperate to make it into
the enslavement camp in a timely fashion.

In fact, you'd find a number of current and former MS employees among
the cyclists who will be fighting for these facilities, as the parkway
is a major bike-commuting route. Thinking of the Redmond effort, I'm
now realizing that nearly all of the people who fought for the bicycle
and pedestrian improvements were either existing or former MS
employees, or married to one, or both.

Rather, the people who I met at the barbecue were older (50s and 60s)
boating types. If I were to guess their PRIZM demographic group, I'd
say Pools and Patios
(http://houseandhome.msn.com/pickaplace/demographicdetail.aspx?id=4&NHName=Bellevue+(98008)&Zip=98008&County=King&State=WA&sRegion=p%3a7600&src=nf
or if you prefer: http://tinyurl.com/cf3c)

(Chalo) wrote in message >...

> The Eastside is lost, Claire. There really isn't anything there worth
> trying to improve. That area suffers the characteristic blight of
> many suburbs; it's an anti-community of people who chose their place
> of residence based on what they were trying to avoid, rather than on
> an environment they wanted to be a part of. It's a living testament
> to how fear, greed, arrogance and hate are antithetical to right
> action.
>
> Move into town; you'll recognize a lot more rational human beings
> around you.

Someone from a bicycling organization deigned to come to the Eastside
(first time that's happened that I've noticed) and attended the
barbecue. Someone else from the bike-ped advisory group and I talked
with him for a bit, and rather than him having anything constructive
to say, he spent 90% of his air time with us putting down the
Eastside.

Chalo, I know you meant only the best when you wrote unpleasant things
about where I grew up and where I've lived about three-quarters of my
life, because you invited me to leave it and go to some place that you
consider to be more enlightened. However, believe it or not, I like my
house and my little neighborhood, and unlike your stereotypes, not all
people around me are full of all the nasty attributes you listed. You
may not believe that there is anything to improve maybe I should
leave it as that I beg to differ.

(Tom Keats) speculated in message
>...

> I wonder if there are any Native land claims on this area.

Archeology shows that natives lived along the lake as early as 6,000
years ago, with a major settlement at the Redmond end of the lake
around 1000 BCE. In the 1850s, the Sammamish clan of the Duwamish
tribe numbered about one hundred. The usual hostilities ensued between
white settlers and the natives, and they were eventually either killed
or disbursed. The remnants of this band currently live with the
Tulalips near Everett.

Warm Regards,

Claire Petersky )
Home of the meditative cyclist:
http://home.earthlink.net/~cpetersky/Welcome.htm
Singing with you at: http://www.tiferet.net/
Books just wanna be FREE! See what I mean at:
http://bookcrossing.com/friend/Cpetersky

July 29th 03, 07:05 AM
Claire Petersky > wrote:

> One of the things that was very helpful was having *local* residents
> speak on the behalf of the project. As a Bellevue resident, I mostly
> kept my mouth shut publicly, and having a Seattle person speak would
> have been at best neutral.

I doubt it would matter who spoke out. These people are all part of
the religion of "No Change". They are comfortable in their niche, and
they don't care about anything else. Anything that changes their
environment is greeted not with a rational balancing of relative good
and bad aspects, but rationalization. i.e. I don't like it, so here's
a list of reasons to justify why I don't like it.

I know I would like to see the project go through, because I do use the
road everyday. I travel on the side of the road that is decently
traffic friendly (even if the pavement does needs work). But I
do hate to see the bike commuters coming the other way (riding against
traffic). Ick.

--
Dane Jackson - z u v e m b i @ u n i x b i g o t s . o r g
"Nothing says 'This is serious' like a corpse on the floor."
-Thanks to Michelle Wincek

Karen M.
July 29th 03, 08:34 PM
Claire wrote:
> ... One of the things that was very helpful was having *local* residents
> speak on the behalf of the project. As a Bellevue resident, I mostly
> kept my mouth shut publicly, and having a Seattle person speak would
> have been at best neutral.
>
> One thing that will help is that out of my forty-ahem years of life,
> all but ten of them have been spent as a Bellevue resident. You know
> about the popsicle index? It's a measure of the quality of life for a
> community, and it works like this: it's the percentage of people who
> would feel comfortable sending their kid to the local convenience
> store to buy a popsicle. When I was a kid, my best friend lived on the
> lake (when normal people could afford to live on the lake), and we'd
> walk from her house to the Little Store to buy popsicles. I can tell
> that story, and ask, what's the popsicle index for that road today?
> Outside agitators, especially spandex clad and from Seattle, are
> highly, highly suspicious. If you say you are a local resident, when
> you come in with your kids, when you talk about safety for your
> children, not just yourself -- these are winners.
>
> What would be great would be to find a lakeside resident willing to
> speak on the behalf of the project, but peer pressure is very great.
> On the Redmond project we had lakeside residents tell us privately
> that they supported the City's improvements, but didn't dare say
> anything because they have to live next door to all these people for
> the rest of their lives, and don't want to stick their necks out....

How about contacting the local school and finding someone in the
PTO who's an advocate for the Safe Routes to School thing? Although
the Pool & Patio types are pretty much out of the kid business,
there's gotta be some older dad with a young wife who is So Concerned
About Our Children.
Last fall I attended a SRTS seminar (co-sponsored by state DOT) and
met with a Mother type who lives in a 'hood with a golf course and no
sidewalks. Their fear is that the 19th-holers will hit children trying
to walk anywhere, so it's "soccer moms, start your engines!" They
wanted more concrete to make themselves feel safe. I turned her on to
the idea of a walk/bike to school day, and hallelulah! She became the
local contact for this effort! (I also suggested increased enforcement
around closing time, traffic calming, neighborhood watch to get the
kids to & from safely, and other non-engineering endeavors.)
You could also sneak in some info on property values from other
locales where rail-trails are being implemented. Not quite the same
thing, but even those who typically voiced the loudest opposition
(about vagrants riding out from the rail yards and dumping trash,
stealing their stuff, and urinating) change their tune when the trail
turns out to be a realtor feature.
Maybe the car repair angle? Those busted-up roads have to be
affecting the suspension in the Beemer. Traffic safety? Swerving
around potholes might smash into someone's land yacht or landscaping.
Fire truck thing: sounds like an earthquake-sort of land use to me.
Can they get insurance? Are they on city water (with hydrants)? They
can always make their lucious approach drives into switchbacks and
landscape the heck out of them. Maybe they need private fire service
on a higher elevation.
As for private gated road: not if they want maintenance and police
protection and mail delivery.
HTH. What a potential headache.
--Karen M.

Tom Keats
July 30th 03, 08:10 AM
In article >,
(Karen M.) writes:

> Not quite the same
> thing, but even those who typically voiced the loudest opposition
> (about vagrants riding out from the rail yards and dumping trash,
> stealing their stuff, and urinating) change their tune when the trail
> turns out to be a realtor feature.

I've seen the same sort of thing happen here. Nay sayers become
yea sayers, especially when such improvements have had a good
history and reputation nearby.

You've got a whole bunch of good ideas.


cheers,
Tom

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