definitely not cyclists
 

Theo Bekkers Wrote:
Zebee Johnstone wrote:
http://www.copenhagengirlsonbikes.blogspot.com/

all those women riding about, no lycra, daggy bikes.

Not cyclists, no way!

Never happen in Oz. Can't have people riding daggy bicycles just for
transport.

Just down to the shop? In normal shoes and everything? Nah, real
cyclists
only ride in bunches, on Sundays.

Not good publicity in Perth ATM, a ped got hit a week or so ago on the
South
Perth foreshore shared path, subsequently died.

Theo

Wasn't it at the bell tower on the city side? A tourist who was
standing on the bike path with a group of tourists who then scattered
as the cyclist tried to go around them?

Anyway, it has generated the usual calls in the letters to the editor
for registration of cyclists so they can be identified (although in this
case I believe the cyclist did not attempt to flee or hide his identity)

SteveA


--
SteveA

definitely not cyclists
 

SteveA wrote:
Theo Bekkers Wrote:

Not good publicity in Perth ATM, a ped got hit a week or so ago on
the South
Perth foreshore shared path, subsequently died.

Wasn't it at the bell tower on the city side? A tourist who was
standing on the bike path with a group of tourists who then scattered
as the cyclist tried to go around them?

Anyway, it has generated the usual calls in the letters to the editor
for registration of cyclists so they can be identified (although in
this case I believe the cyclist did not attempt to flee or hide his
identity)

Sorry, you're right. Apparently the tourists scattered at the sight of a mad
cyclist bearing down on them and one jumped the wrong way.

Theo

definitely not cyclists
 

On Nov 26, 10:31 am, wrote:
On Nov 22, 6:31 pm, tim wrote:

Also considering the option of old-school upright "city-bikes"...
single-speed with coaster brake, or hub-geared with drums. Chain
guards, mud guards, kick stands. Not compatible with lycra. Again,
priced to suit their target usage, as basic local transport.

As regards this point, you may have missed the boat:

http://www.theindianbicycleshop.com/index.html

Read this bit again:
"priced to suit their target usage, as basic local transport"

$600 for a coaster-braked single-speed steel-framed bike? Yeeeow!

tim

definitely not cyclists
 

In aus.bicycle on Mon, 26 Nov 2007 00:45:30 -0800 (PST)
tim wrote:

Read this bit again:
"priced to suit their target usage, as basic local transport"

$600 for a coaster-braked single-speed steel-framed bike? Yeeeow!

It is a bit rough.

Any rival would have to compete with k-mart bikes, which are what
people use for that job now.

Zebee

definitely not cyclists
 

Zebee Johnstone wrote:
In aus.bicycle on Mon, 26 Nov 2007 00:45:30 -0800 (PST)
tim wrote:
Read this bit again:
"priced to suit their target usage, as basic local transport"

$600 for a coaster-braked single-speed steel-framed bike? Yeeeow!

It is a bit rough.

Any rival would have to compete with k-mart bikes, which are what
people use for that job now.

Zebee

The prices for similar bikes from Europe are actually higher than that.

They do look good, but it's too hilly around here for single speeds (my
first real bike as a child proved that and I was fit then!).

I never managed to ride up the hill to home until I got my first 10
speed. [1]


G-S

[1] I avoid that particular hill and ride the long way around it these
days despite gears :)

Simple bikes for local transport
 

On Nov 26, 8:57 pm, G-S wrote:
Zebee Johnstone wrote:
In aus.bicycle on Mon, 26 Nov 2007 00:45:30 -0800 (PST)
tim wrote:
$600 for a coaster-braked single-speed steel-framed bike? Yeeeow!
Any rival would have to compete with k-mart bikes, which are what
people use for that job now.

That's my goal.

I've dispaired at the cheap bike options available in Australia for
years. BTH's good experiences with his BigW bike are refreshing, but
the fact remains - ultra-cheap bikes are very low quality and
generally unsuitable for their target and actual use. It makes no
sense to fit knobby tyres on a bike with the generic "not for off-road
use" sticker, for example.

The first few steps up the price ladder gets you more gimmicks and no
more quality. Dysfunctional suspension. Shockingly bad disc brakes.
Funky "Y-bike" frames that add weight, reduce strength and increase
the number of questionable welds.

Pay a bit more, the gimmicks get better in quality, until you're
paying $500+ for a reasonably good bike. I would still question
whether the style of the bike is appropriate for the target use - as
discussed in the thread that I've forked this from, Australian society
is set on the idea of cycling being a sport, and the categories of
bikes on the market ("road" or "mountain") reflect this. "Hybrid"
bikes are a change from this, but simply don't exist at the lower
price level... where many of the people who would be best served by
such a bike are shopping.

I want to offer functional bikes for a price comparable to department
store junk bikes. Cheap, comfortable, reliable, and adequate for short
local trips.

I'm not kidding myself that this is a huge market segment. I'm not
about to quitting my day job and build a lavish corporate HQ. In the
first instance I'm only planning on selling a few cargo-bikes
(bakfietsen), which is an even smaller segment. But if I'm setting up
import and distribution channels I may as well look at other options
too. A bit more inventory. A few more pallets in the garage. A bit
more money tied up in stuff I hope I can sell. Gulp.

(This whole debacle started because I want a bakfiets to carry my
little girls, and couldn't find them for sale outside of Europe and
Portland, OR.. Next thing I know I'm setting myself up as an import
tycoon. Eeep.)

The prices for similar bikes from Europe are actually higher than that.

That's why I'm looking to source from China.

People admire Dutch and Danish cycling culture, so they look to buy
Dutch- and Danish-built bikes to follow the "simple bike" philosophy.
If you can afford a genuine Dutch single-speed city bike, good luck to
you. I'm sure they're great bikes, but the price doesn't fit the
product.

There's nearly a billion people riding basic single-speed bikes in
China and India combined, and they sure as heck can't afford premium
quality European craftsmanship. If anybody knows how to put a basic
steel bike frame together it's the Chinese. They sure build enough of
them. I suspect there are more miles ridden on Chinese single-speed
bikes than all other bikes in the world combined.

They do look good, but it's too hilly around here for single speeds (my
first real bike as a child proved that and I was fit then!).

So we get to the point of this post - what do people think is
necessary (and/or desireable) for a basic, general purpose, local
transport bike for lycra-free "unreal cyclists" (as PeteSig so
elequently put it)?

Single-speed is as simple as it gets. But there's the hill issue. Cost
permitting, my preference would be hub gears. Derailers are great for
sporting bikes - there's no better, lighter or cheaper way to get such
a wide range of gears - but they require some shifting technique, and
present the possibility of the chain falling off. People like my Mum
are scared of derailer gears. Hub gears are more rugged, more
forgiving of (moderate) neglect, and more foolproof in operation. 3-
speed hubs have been used for nearly 100 years. There are now numerous
8-speed hubs on the market (Shimano, Sram and Sturmey) although none
of them are particularly cheap. I don't think the local transport bike
market can afford, nor requires, Rohloff :-P

A good chain guard (or full chain case) is a must-have, as are good
mudguards. These bikes should be rideable in street clothes, or a
business suit, without getting filthy. The chain case requirement fits
in with the "no derailers" idea - a single chainline is easier to
guard. Chain guards are also a deadset nuisance if you drop a chain,
which is much more likely with derailer gears (especially if the bike
ends up in small-small gears, which they inevitably do when ridden by
non-enthusiast cyclists).

Asian and European city bikes tend to run coaster (back-pedal) brakes
on the rear wheel only. I survived okay as a kid with my back-pedal
brake BMX, but Australian law now requires all new bikes to have front
and rear brakes. Are rim brakes really a good choice for bikes that
are unlikely to have their rims replaced if (when) damaged? What about
drum brakes? I don't think discs are a viable option at this end of
the market - cheap discs simply don't work, and the rotors are always
susceptible to damage when jammed into bike racks etc..

How about frame style? Traditional diamond frame is a given; how about
step-through frames ("grandmother bikes" as the Dutch would call
them)? Not good for frame stiffness, but intended to be easier to ride
in a skirt. I've never ridden in a long skirt, so I don't know how
much of an issue this is.

26" or 700c wheels?

Any other thoughts or suggestions?

tim
http://www.townbikes.com - work in progress behind the scenes :-P

Simple bikes for local transport
 

In aus.bicycle on Mon, 26 Nov 2007 15:39:38 -0800 (PST)
tim wrote:
discussed in the thread that I've forked this from, Australian society
is set on the idea of cycling being a sport, and the categories of
bikes on the market ("road" or "mountain") reflect this. "Hybrid"
bikes are a change from this, but simply don't exist at the lower
price level... where many of the people who would be best served by
such a bike are shopping.

I agree. I have no idea how much "fashion" comes into it. For kids a
lot, for adults, maybe not so much. Well.. maybe adult men :)

(My sister drives a 4WD but it was her husband who insisted on it. She
dislikes it.)

Single-speed is as simple as it gets. But there's the hill issue. Cost
permitting, my preference would be hub gears. Derailers are great for

definitely. And you don't need that many, but you do need a low one.


A good chain guard (or full chain case) is a must-have, as are good
mudguards. These bikes should be rideable in street clothes, or a

Again yes. Full case is a good idea, helps keep the water off too.


are unlikely to have their rims replaced if (when) damaged? What about
drum brakes? I don't think discs are a viable option at this end of
the market - cheap discs simply don't work, and the rotors are always
susceptible to damage when jammed into bike racks etc..

I think it is going to be a price point thing and probably an ease of
maintenance thing too. Which is easiest to write a "brake adjustment
for dummies" pamphlet about?

How about frame style? Traditional diamond frame is a given; how about
step-through frames ("grandmother bikes" as the Dutch would call
them)? Not good for frame stiffness, but intended to be easier to ride
in a skirt. I've never ridden in a long skirt, so I don't know how
much of an issue this is.

I think not so much a skirt as for ease of getting on and off. Modern
bikes have high BBs so high seats. If you can get lower BBs so people
can sit on the seat with feet on the ground - yes that's not "most
efficient" but they don't care - then that would be good.


26" or 700c wheels?

Whatever people can get decent tough comfortable tyres for. I suspect
26" is going to have more tough 80psi tyres. The whole "sport" thing
again.

Any other thoughts or suggestions?

I like dynamo lights.... Simple bolt on lights and bottle dynamos as
an option?

Baskets and racks, for sure. Baskets are such a damn useful thing.

Sprung saddles. I doubt your average commuter cyclist wants to break
in a Brooks.

Zebee

Simple bikes for local transport
 

Zebee Johnstone wrote:
Tim wrote

I agree. I have no idea how much "fashion" comes into it. For kids a
lot, for adults, maybe not so much. Well.. maybe adult men :)

(My sister drives a 4WD but it was her husband who insisted on it. She
dislikes it.)

My wife drives a 4WD (well, a RAV4) and she loves it. I'd sooner a sedan.

Single-speed is as simple as it gets. But there's the hill issue.
Cost permitting, my preference would be hub gears. Derailers are
great for

definitely. And you don't need that many, but you do need a low one.

I believe real bikes that are designed that way are around 70-75 inches.

are unlikely to have their rims replaced if (when) damaged? What
about drum brakes? I don't think discs are a viable option at this
end of the market - cheap discs simply don't work, and the rotors
are always susceptible to damage when jammed into bike racks etc..

I think it is going to be a price point thing and probably an ease of
maintenance thing too. Which is easiest to write a "brake adjustment
for dummies" pamphlet about?

Back-pedal brakes may be way out of style, but they work pretty well for 20
or 30 years with minimal maintenance. A 'town-bike' needs to have longevity
without weekly or monthly maintenance. Utility bikes should be able to
survive with an annual service for 30 years. You see Dutch town-bikes in
Bali still, and they must be 60-70 years old.

I think not so much a skirt as for ease of getting on and off. Modern
bikes have high BBs so high seats. If you can get lower BBs so people
can sit on the seat with feet on the ground - yes that's not "most
efficient" but they don't care - then that would be good.

Yup, granny isn't going to swing her leg around the back of the seat, and
when you get on a bike in a skirt, it's better to have the skirt in front of
you rather than behind.

I like dynamo lights.... Simple bolt on lights and bottle dynamos as
an option?
Sprung saddles. I doubt your average commuter cyclist wants to break
in a Brooks.

Yes and yes.

Theo

Simple bikes for local transport
 

Simple bikes for local transport
 

On Nov 27, 11:53 am, "Theo Bekkers" wrote:

Back-pedal brakes may be way out of style, but they work pretty well for 20
or 30 years with minimal maintenance.

The only brakes I've owned other than rim and disk brakes are the back-
pedal brake on my old BMX and the drum drag-brake on my old (1970s
vintage) tandem. From what I have heard about modern roller brakes and
service drum brakes (eg http://www.sturmey-archer.com/
hubs_fh_SBF.php and http://cycle.shimano-eu.com/catalog/cycle/
products/group.jsp?FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302050047&A SSORTMENT%3C
%3East_id=1408474395181667&bmUID=1196130764762) they're just as
durable as they ever were; nobody's getting rich selling replacement
friction elements for these things.

A 'town-bike' needs to have longevity
without weekly or monthly maintenance. Utility bikes should be able to
survive with an annual service for 30 years.

I suspect most of the people who'd buy this type of bike won't do
their own maintenance. An annual service will be recommended.

Although, I don't remember the coaster brake of my old BMX getting
much of a service after being ridden hub-deep in salt water...

I doubt your average commuter cyclist wants to break
in a Brooks.

I doubt your average townbikes.com customer wants to pay for a Brooks
either. Not without the Rohloff upgrade, anyway.

Hmmmm, cheap Chinese frames with Rohloff speedhubs and Brooks saddles,
I'm sure there's a market there :-P

I think one of the main comfort benefit of a Brooks saddle is that the
wallet in the rider's right hip pocket is so much thinner, so he can
sit more evenly.

I've seen some leather Brooks knock-off saddles available though...

Maybe that will be stage 3 of the business development. Cargo bikes,
then city bikes, then general commuter bike bits and pieces (including
chain cases and farkles as requested by Lemmi). Maybe not until stage
4 - I'll get the lavish corporate HQ cum lair sorted first. Including
a big tank full of sharks.

tim
making plans while he waits patiently for his approval sample
bakfietsen to be unloaded from the container... tap tap tap...