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drill/tap in frames
Are there any secrets to drilling holes in
steel bike frames? I have a couple of discarded ones I can test on but I thought I'd ask anyway. Do you use normal power hand tools like a drill-screwdriver and/or a drill press (if possible with the desired bolt position)? Do the normal rules apply, e.g. to get a threaded hole for an M6, you first drill with a 5.0mm drill? And you can use chainsaw oil, right? -- underground experts united http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 |
drill/tap in frames
On 7/7/2018 10:27 AM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Are there any secrets to drilling holes in steel bike frames? I have a couple of discarded ones I can test on but I thought I'd ask anyway. Do you use normal power hand tools like a drill-screwdriver and/or a drill press (if possible with the desired bolt position)? Do the normal rules apply, e.g. to get a threaded hole for an M6, you first drill with a 5.0mm drill? And you can use chainsaw oil, right? Exactly what are you planning to attach, and where? If you're drilling and tapping in (say) rear dropouts, normal practices should be fine. But if you're planning on drilling and tapping frame tubes, you probably wont' have sufficient wall thickness in the tubes. It's usually considered proper to give tapped holes a thread depth at least 1.5 times the screw diameter. So for a 5mm screw, you'd want 7.5mm of thickness. Sometimes a little less can be OK. But your frame tube walls are probably less than 1mm thickness. That's not enough. So you probably want to install "Rivnuts" instead. https://www.boellhoff.com/us-en/prod...uts-rivnut.php This group has debated Rivnuts extensively. One poster claims nobody should install a Rivnut unless he has access to a complete machine shop. Others with more experience have said that the installation is easy for anyone with normal mechanical skills. Here's a video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_uu_ba6qAM but it's also easy to install these without special tools. -- - Frank Krygowski |
drill/tap in frames
Frank Krygowski wrote:
If you're drilling and tapping in (say) rear dropouts, normal practices should be fine. But if you're planning on drilling and tapping frame tubes, you probably wont' have sufficient wall thickness in the tubes. It's usually considered proper to give tapped holes a thread depth at least 1.5 times the screw diameter. So for a 5mm screw, you'd want 7.5mm of thickness. Sometimes a little less can be OK. But your frame tube walls are probably less than 1mm thickness. That's not enough. The stays that hold the chainguard, both from the front and under, are very thin, probably around 1mm. Still it is enough for a couple of Torx flat-headed M5 screws to hold it (1 from under, 2 front, the one at the rear is usually bolted tho with a nut on the other side). The down stay is also fastened in the same way to the frame. (I don't know how the front one is attached because you typically don't remove it. But I'll check it out.) With Loctite I suppose it'd be even more strength to it? -- underground experts united http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 |
drill/tap in frames
On 7/7/2018 9:27 AM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Are there any secrets to drilling holes in steel bike frames? I have a couple of discarded ones I can test on but I thought I'd ask anyway. Do you use normal power hand tools like a drill-screwdriver and/or a drill press (if possible with the desired bolt position)? Do the normal rules apply, e.g. to get a threaded hole for an M6, you first drill with a 5.0mm drill? And you can use chainsaw oil, right? Subtract pitch from major diameter, e.g., tap drill for an m5x0.8 is 4.2mm and use lard-sulphur cutting oil for drilling and tapping in steel. Yes use chainsaw oil on your chainsaw. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
drill/tap in frames
AMuzi wrote:
Subtract pitch from major diameter, e.g., tap drill for an m5x0.8 is 4.2mm Well, then you still have to look up the pitch, which is in the same table as the drill diameter, all of which is faster than the thread gauge... Yes use chainsaw oil on your chainsaw. Won't that trigger a dangerous chain reaction? -- underground experts united http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 |
drill/tap in frames
On 7/7/2018 9:27 AM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Are there any secrets to drilling holes in steel bike frames? I have a couple of discarded ones I can test on but I thought I'd ask anyway. Do you use normal power hand tools like a drill-screwdriver and/or a drill press (if possible with the desired bolt position)? Do the normal rules apply, e.g. to get a threaded hole for an M6, you first drill with a 5.0mm drill? And you can use chainsaw oil, right? From playing with the metalworking machines I have... 1) A drill press w/vise will work far better than a hand drill. If you use a hand drill in thicker (1mm) metal, the bits will go dull really fast and tend to break as they come out the back side of the hole. 2) there are tap/drill charts online that tell you what hole size is needed for which tap size. 3) for cutting fluid--real fluid is best but any lubricating oil you have is way better than nothing. 4) cheap taps tend to be really ****ty--there's no other word for it. The metal is weak, the thread fit is loose and even with lube they are hard to turn in (being ground poorly),,, which makes breaking them even more likely. They aren't worth stealing. But good taps,,, cost money (just like drill bits). The $50 set at Sears would cost you $400+ from a real machinist supply place. I would suggest you buy a single spiral-point tap online, as you need them. For am M6x1mm, this is what I'd get at McMaster: part # 2703A74, $10.72 https://www.mcmaster.com/#2703a74/=1dm1s97 5) and you didn't ask, but just FYI: stainless steel is a royal bitch. It is way, way, way tougher than carbon steel. Other than an angle grinder, cheap tools simply won't cut it. You pretty much need a BIG drill press or mill and good cobalt/carbide drill bits w/real cutting fluid. I have seen posts online where people wanted to drill a hole in a cheap stainless-steel mixing bowl, and they couldn't figure out why the drill bit would just spin around and not go through. |
drill/tap in frames
On Sat, 07 Jul 2018 16:27:01 +0200, Emanuel Berg
wrote: Are there any secrets to drilling holes in steel bike frames? I have a couple of discarded ones I can test on but I thought I'd ask anyway. Do you use normal power hand tools like a drill-screwdriver and/or a drill press (if possible with the desired bolt position)? Use a drill press and a tubing drilling jig. I use one of these: https://www.trick-tools.com/Center_It_Drill_Jig_CI_1_1154 I've had bad luck using an electric drill. A drill press (or vertical mill) is best. Do the normal rules apply, e.g. to get a threaded hole for an M6, you first drill with a 5.0mm drill? The tubing is probably too thin for threading the hole. You need at least 3 full threads wall thickness tubing to keep the mounting screw from stripping the threads out of the hole. For an M5x0.8, that's 0.8 mm per thread. So, the minimum tubing wall thickness would be 2.4mm. However, since the tubing on your bicycle is probably around 0.5mm wall thickness, the tubing wall will never be thick enough to support threading. To get more threads to grip is one reason why builders use braze on bosses for mount points. You should have a drill chart available. Print one and hang it somewhe https://www.google.com/search?q=tap+and+drill+chart&tbm=isch And you can use chainsaw oil, right? Maybe. High tack oil can be applied to the boss and left to harden into a passable glue. In a few months, it should be sufficiently hardened to support an empty water bottle for a few miles before it falls off. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
drill/tap in frames
On Sat, 7 Jul 2018 11:06:52 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote: This group has debated Rivnuts extensively. One poster claims nobody should install a Rivnut unless he has access to a complete machine shop. Others with more experience have said that the installation is easy for anyone with normal mechanical skills. That would be SMS (Steven Scharf) on one of his web pages: http://nordicgroup.us/cageboss/ Since I've made a mess with all the available technologies, Rivnuts (steel and aluminum), brazing (steel), TIG (aluminum), and epoxy glue (plastic boss on aluminum), I'll remain neutral on the matter. Hint: Use steel Rivnuts on steel frames, aluminum Rivnuts on aluminum frame, and plastic straps or clamps on CF (carbon fiber). -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
drill/tap in frames
Doug Cimperman wrote:
1) A drill press w/vise will work far better than a hand drill. If you use a hand drill in thicker (1mm) metal, the bits will go dull really fast and tend to break as they come out the back side of the hole. Drill bits, is there a reason to use those instead of just drills (round)? 2) there are tap/drill charts online that tell you what hole size is needed for which tap size. Yes, I have the table on virtually every calipers and ruler I have... -- underground experts united http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 |
drill/tap in frames
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
The tubing is probably too thin for threading the hole. You need at least 3 full threads wall thickness tubing to keep the mounting screw from stripping the threads out of the hole. For an M5x0.8, that's 0.8 mm per thread. So, the minimum tubing wall thickness would be 2.4mm. However, since the tubing on your bicycle is probably around 0.5mm wall thickness, the tubing wall will never be thick enough to support threading. To get more threads to grip is one reason why builders use braze on bosses for mount points. I keep hearing this, but it isn't the case for my bikes which have chainguards. These have three stays, and of those, two are mounted on the bike frame with M5 screws. Threaded hole, no nut on the other side! Then the chainguard is mounted on the stays, likewise with M5s, threaded holes (only here sometimes there are nuts as well). The stays are about 1mm. How thick the frame tube wall is I don't know, but I can take a discarded frame and cut it with an angle grinder to find out, God willing. This ain't to say that rivnuts ain't a good idea, of course. BTW, do you by them online? I don't think they are in our HW stores... (which is common with the stuff you guys mention: durometer, soft jaw pliers, etc.) -- underground experts united http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 |
drill/tap in frames
On Sun, 08 Jul 2018 01:08:28 +0200, Emanuel Berg
wrote: Jeff Liebermann wrote: The tubing is probably too thin for threading the hole. You need at least 3 full threads wall thickness tubing to keep the mounting screw from stripping the threads out of the hole. For an M5x0.8, that's 0.8 mm per thread. So, the minimum tubing wall thickness would be 2.4mm. However, since the tubing on your bicycle is probably around 0.5mm wall thickness, the tubing wall will never be thick enough to support threading. To get more threads to grip is one reason why builders use braze on bosses for mount points. I keep hearing this, Then, it doesn't hurt to repeat it a few more times until you become a believer. Please repeat a few hundred times: "Thin wall tubing should not be threaded" but it isn't the case for my bikes which have chainguards. These have three stays, and of those, two are mounted on the bike frame with M5 screws. Threaded hole, no nut on the other side! How thick is the tubing at the 3 stays? Are you sure that there isn't a Rivnut, PEM nut, or other threaded insert in the stays? Then the chainguard is mounted on the stays, likewise with M5s, threaded holes (only here sometimes there are nuts as well). How do you install a nut when the ends of the stays are all welded shut? There's no sane way to install a nut inside the stays. Hopefully, your machine does not have an M5 fastener going though both sides of the stays, and secured by a Nyloc nut? Overtighten and you'll crush the stays. The stays are about 1mm. How thick the frame tube wall is I don't know, but I can take a discarded frame and cut it with an angle grinder to find out, God willing. The stays are likely to be double butted, with different thicknesses at the ends, compared to the middle of the tube. If you don't mind drilling a tiny hole in your scrap bicycle frame, you can easily measure the thickness. 1. Drill a very small hole in one side of the tube. If you plan to ride this bike again, drill on side of the tube that will drain water. 2. Make a straight pin that is long enough to go through the hole and hit the opposite side while having a little stick out of the hole. 3. Measure the length of the pin accurately with calipers. Flatten the ends if necessary. 4. Using the same caliper as above, measure between the projecting pin end, and the far end of the tubing. 5. Subtract the length of the pin from the above measurement and you have the wall thickness. 6. Plug the drill hole so water doesn't enter. This ain't to say that rivnuts ain't a good idea, of course. Make sure you use steel Rivnuts on a steel frame. Never mind. It's a dumb idea. An M5 Rivnut is going to require a 7.0 mm (+0.1/-0 mm) hole. That's going to seriously weaken the stays. If you notch the hole to prevent rotation of the Rivnut, you also get a stress riser. Don't do it. BTW, do you by them online? I don't think they are in our HW stores... (which is common with the stuff you guys mention: durometer, soft jaw pliers, etc.) Actually, I steal them from former employers and companies where I consult. Same with other consumables, such as pop rivets, office supplies, electronic parts, etc. I'm still using parts that I stole perhaps 30 years ago. I bought my durometer on eBay. I've never seen one in a retail automotive parts sto https://www.ebay.com/itm/322919230951 My soft jaw pliers came with an ITT Cannon circular connector kit. I have three with different tubing diameters. https://www.google.com/search?q=cannon+connector+pliers&tbm=isch However, they're quite expensive from Cannon, so I would get something cheaper: https://www.google.com/search?q=soft+jaw+pliers&tbm=isch Someone sells plastic covers that slide over the jaws to convert channel locks into soft jaw pliers. Avoid. They don't work very well. 147 hardware stores in Stockholm: https://www.yelp.com/search?cflt=hardware&find_loc=Stockholm -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
drill/tap in frames
On 7/7/2018 4:08 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Jeff Liebermann wrote: The tubing is probably too thin for threading the hole. You need at least 3 full threads wall thickness tubing to keep the mounting screw from stripping the threads out of the hole. For an M5x0.8, that's 0.8 mm per thread. So, the minimum tubing wall thickness would be 2.4mm. However, since the tubing on your bicycle is probably around 0.5mm wall thickness, the tubing wall will never be thick enough to support threading. To get more threads to grip is one reason why builders use braze on bosses for mount points. I keep hearing this, but it isn't the case for my bikes which have chainguards. These have three stays, and of those, two are mounted on the bike frame with M5 screws. Threaded hole, no nut on the other side! Then the chainguard is mounted on the stays, likewise with M5s, threaded holes (only here sometimes there are nuts as well). The stays are about 1mm. How thick the frame tube wall is I don't know, but I can take a discarded frame and cut it with an angle grinder to find out, God willing. This ain't to say that rivnuts ain't a good idea, of course. BTW, do you by them online? I don't think they are in our HW stores... (which is common with the stuff you guys mention: durometer, soft jaw pliers, etc.) In my area you can by them over the counter at a fastener company (http://olander.com/). Probably few, if any, hardware stores carry them. |
drill/tap in frames
sms wrote:
In my area you can by them over the counter at a fastener company (http://olander.com/). Probably few, if any, hardware stores carry them. Ain't it the truth! I always said the hardware store were overrated, save for the hot chics in their early and mid 20s that works there, which BTW is a capitalist trick so that there won't be a prestige contest who supposedly knows more, and the relaxed and content customers will buy even more. -- underground experts united http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 |
drill/tap in frames
On Sun, 8 Jul 2018 09:10:49 -0700, sms
wrote: In my area you can by them over the counter at a fastener company (http://olander.com/). Probably few, if any, hardware stores carry them. Fastenal also carries Rivnuts: https://www.fastenal.com/product/fasteners/rivets/rivet-nuts/602457?categoryId=602457&level=3 Nearest stores are probably in Mtn View and Santa Clara. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
drill/tap in frames
On 7/7/2018 6:00 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Doug Cimperman wrote: 1) A drill press w/vise will work far better than a hand drill. If you use a hand drill in thicker (1mm) metal, the bits will go dull really fast and tend to break as they come out the back side of the hole. Drill bits, is there a reason to use those instead of just drills (round)? I am not sure what you mean by drill bits not being round? Drill bits with hex or triangle shanks tend to break if they snag in metal. It is better to use a smooth-shank drill bit since if it snags, it will just spin in the chuck instead of breaking. As I understand it, "drill" is the term for the entire tool--either hand-held, or bench- or floor-standing. A "drill bit" is the part that actually makes the hole: https://www.mcmaster.com/#30565a274/=1dmner9 (5.2mm, $2.89 each) I must admit that I kinda prefer buying drills elsewhere... McMaster is fast & easy but they usually do not say what brand you are getting. For HSS drills and taps I usually buy the Hertel brand at MSC: https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/01076504 (5.2mm, $2.91) |
drill/tap in frames
On 7/7/2018 7:27 AM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Are there any secrets to drilling holes in steel bike frames? I have a couple of discarded ones I can test on but I thought I'd ask anyway. Do you use normal power hand tools like a drill-screwdriver and/or a drill press (if possible with the desired bolt position)? Do the normal rules apply, e.g. to get a threaded hole for an M6, you first drill with a 5.0mm drill? And you can use chainsaw oil, right? As Jobst Brandt stated: "I don't know many riders who believe that drilling a hole in a frame tube is a reasonable concept." |
drill/tap in frames
On Sun, 8 Jul 2018 09:10:49 -0700, sms
wrote: On 7/7/2018 4:08 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote: Jeff Liebermann wrote: The tubing is probably too thin for threading the hole. You need at least 3 full threads wall thickness tubing to keep the mounting screw from stripping the threads out of the hole. For an M5x0.8, that's 0.8 mm per thread. So, the minimum tubing wall thickness would be 2.4mm. However, since the tubing on your bicycle is probably around 0.5mm wall thickness, the tubing wall will never be thick enough to support threading. To get more threads to grip is one reason why builders use braze on bosses for mount points. It depends a lot on what the tube set is design for. A top tier road bike (steel) will likely have tubes in the 0.5 - 1 mm thickness range. Spirit - a top of the line triple butted frame set with oversized tubes will be (top tube) 31mm O.D., and wall thickness of 0.5 - 0.38 - 0.5mm. Steel frames traditionally use a small threaded boss soldered on where the screw is required and other materials often use a "Rivnut", which before anyone starts to disparage them should understand that they were originally designed to provide blind holes in aircraft structure and used literally by the millions. Successfully :-) I keep hearing this, but it isn't the case for my bikes which have chainguards. These have three stays, and of those, two are mounted on the bike frame with M5 screws. Threaded hole, no nut on the other side! Then the chainguard is mounted on the stays, likewise with M5s, threaded holes (only here sometimes there are nuts as well). The stays are about 1mm. How thick the frame tube wall is I don't know, but I can take a discarded frame and cut it with an angle grinder to find out, God willing. The normal engaged thread length depends on the diameter of the bolt and the "standard" (strength) For example, an M5 screw (grade 6h/6g) will have a minimum stressed (threaded)area some 4.0103 mm long. This is usually felt to be a sufficient thread engagement to provide some 100% of shank strength. There are innumerable tables available giving the required data. This ain't to say that rivnuts ain't a good idea, of course. BTW, do you by them online? I don't think they are in our HW stores... (which is common with the stuff you guys mention: durometer, soft jaw pliers, etc.) In my area you can by them over the counter at a fastener company (http://olander.com/). Probably few, if any, hardware stores carry them. -- Cheers, John B. |
drill/tap in frames
On Sat, 07 Jul 2018 17:54:40 +0200, Emanuel Berg wrote:
AMuzi wrote: Subtract pitch from major diameter, e.g., tap drill for an m5x0.8 is 4.2mm Well, then you still have to look up the pitch, which is in the same table as the drill diameter, all of which is faster than the thread gauge... Yes use chainsaw oil on your chainsaw. Won't that trigger a dangerous chain reaction? I saw what you did there. -- davethedave |
drill/tap in frames
sms wrote:
:On 7/7/2018 7:27 AM, Emanuel Berg wrote: : Are there any secrets to drilling holes in : steel bike frames? I have a couple of discarded : ones I can test on but I thought I'd : ask anyway. : : Do you use normal power hand tools like : a drill-screwdriver and/or a drill press (if : possible with the desired bolt position)? : : Do the normal rules apply, e.g. to get : a threaded hole for an M6, you first drill with : a 5.0mm drill? : : And you can use chainsaw oil, right? :As Jobst Brandt stated: "I don't know many riders who believe that :drilling a hole in a frame tube is a reasonable concept." Who cares what riders think, what do the egineers do? -- sig 47 |
drill/tap in frames
On Mon, 9 Jul 2018 16:21:43 +0000 (UTC), David Scheidt
wrote: sms wrote: :On 7/7/2018 7:27 AM, Emanuel Berg wrote: : Are there any secrets to drilling holes in : steel bike frames? I have a couple of discarded : ones I can test on but I thought I'd : ask anyway. : : Do you use normal power hand tools like : a drill-screwdriver and/or a drill press (if : possible with the desired bolt position)? : : Do the normal rules apply, e.g. to get : a threaded hole for an M6, you first drill with : a 5.0mm drill? : : And you can use chainsaw oil, right? :As Jobst Brandt stated: "I don't know many riders who believe that :drilling a hole in a frame tube is a reasonable concept." Who cares what riders think, what do the egineers do? Jobst Brandt was a mechanical engineer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobst_Brandt What's an egineer? -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
drill/tap in frames
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
:On Mon, 9 Jul 2018 16:21:43 +0000 (UTC), David Scheidt wrote: :sms wrote: ::On 7/7/2018 7:27 AM, Emanuel Berg wrote: :: Are there any secrets to drilling holes in :: steel bike frames? I have a couple of discarded :: ones I can test on but I thought I'd :: ask anyway. :: :: Do you use normal power hand tools like :: a drill-screwdriver and/or a drill press (if :: possible with the desired bolt position)? :: :: Do the normal rules apply, e.g. to get :: a threaded hole for an M6, you first drill with :: a 5.0mm drill? :: :: And you can use chainsaw oil, right? : ::As Jobst Brandt stated: "I don't know many riders who believe that ::drilling a hole in a frame tube is a reasonable concept." :Who cares what riders think, what do the egineers do? :Jobst Brandt was a mechanical engineer. :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobst_Brandt he was also wrong about many things. Every bike I've ever had has had holes drilled in it. Clearly, there is a range of holes that do not cause failure, and some that do. The question is where does a rivnut fall? I wouldn't drill a 5 mm hole a on 26mm diameter tube, but they work fine on large diamter ones. -- sig 48 |
drill/tap in frames
On Mon, 9 Jul 2018 18:16:19 +0000 (UTC), David Scheidt
wrote: Jeff Liebermann wrote: :On Mon, 9 Jul 2018 16:21:43 +0000 (UTC), David Scheidt wrote: :sms wrote: ::On 7/7/2018 7:27 AM, Emanuel Berg wrote: :: Are there any secrets to drilling holes in :: steel bike frames? I have a couple of discarded :: ones I can test on but I thought I'd :: ask anyway. :: :: Do you use normal power hand tools like :: a drill-screwdriver and/or a drill press (if :: possible with the desired bolt position)? :: :: Do the normal rules apply, e.g. to get :: a threaded hole for an M6, you first drill with :: a 5.0mm drill? :: :: And you can use chainsaw oil, right? : ::As Jobst Brandt stated: "I don't know many riders who believe that ::drilling a hole in a frame tube is a reasonable concept." :Who cares what riders think, what do the egineers do? :Jobst Brandt was a mechanical engineer. :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobst_Brandt he was also wrong about many things. I know. I locked horns with him on several issues where I was certain that he was wrong. His mechanical engineering was superb. His chemistry, not so good. Electronics, I don't recall. Every bike I've ever had has had holes drilled in it. Clearly, there is a range of holes that do not cause failure, and some that do. The question is where does a rivnut fall? I wouldn't drill a 5 mm hole a on 26mm diameter tube, but they work fine on large diamter ones. The OP is talking about installing Rivnuts in his chain stays in order to repair some chain guard and fender supports. I'm too lazy to walk over to my bicycle and measure them, but methinks they're much too small diameter for a 5mm hole. The Rivnut would also not have much of a flat surface in which to seat and might loosen and spin. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
drill/tap in frames
On 7/8/2018 10:31 PM, sms wrote:
On 7/7/2018 7:27 AM, Emanuel Berg wrote: Are there any secrets to drilling holes in steel bike frames? I have a couple of discarded ones I can test on but I thought I'd ask anyway. Do you use normal power hand tools like a drill-screwdriver and/or a drill press (if possible with the desired bolt position)? Do the normal rules apply, e.g. to get a threaded hole for an M6, you first drill with a 5.0mm drill? And you can use chainsaw oil, right? As Jobst Brandt stated: "I don't know many riders who believe that drilling a hole in a frame tube is a reasonable concept." Typical "sms" argument technique: Ignore the technical details. Instead, appeal to authority. https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/...l-to-Authority -- - Frank Krygowski |
drill/tap in frames
On 7/9/2018 3:05 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 9 Jul 2018 18:16:19 +0000 (UTC), David Scheidt wrote: Jeff Liebermann wrote: :On Mon, 9 Jul 2018 16:21:43 +0000 (UTC), David Scheidt wrote: :sms wrote: ::On 7/7/2018 7:27 AM, Emanuel Berg wrote: :: Are there any secrets to drilling holes in :: steel bike frames? I have a couple of discarded :: ones I can test on but I thought I'd :: ask anyway. :: :: Do you use normal power hand tools like :: a drill-screwdriver and/or a drill press (if :: possible with the desired bolt position)? :: :: Do the normal rules apply, e.g. to get :: a threaded hole for an M6, you first drill with :: a 5.0mm drill? :: :: And you can use chainsaw oil, right? : ::As Jobst Brandt stated: "I don't know many riders who believe that ::drilling a hole in a frame tube is a reasonable concept." :Who cares what riders think, what do the egineers do? :Jobst Brandt was a mechanical engineer. :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobst_Brandt he was also wrong about many things. I know. I locked horns with him on several issues where I was certain that he was wrong. His mechanical engineering was superb. His chemistry, not so good. Electronics, I don't recall. Every bike I've ever had has had holes drilled in it. Clearly, there is a range of holes that do not cause failure, and some that do. The question is where does a rivnut fall? I wouldn't drill a 5 mm hole a on 26mm diameter tube, but they work fine on large diamter ones. The OP is talking about installing Rivnuts in his chain stays in order to repair some chain guard and fender supports. I'm too lazy to walk over to my bicycle and measure them, but methinks they're much too small diameter for a 5mm hole. The Rivnut would also not have much of a flat surface in which to seat and might loosen and spin. Actually, the OP was talking about drilling and tapping instead of Rivnuts. And it wasn't clear to me, at least, exactly what portions of the frame he was interested in tapping. A photo or two might help. -- - Frank Krygowski |
drill/tap in frames
On Mon, 9 Jul 2018 15:26:18 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote: Actually, the OP was talking about drilling and tapping instead of Rivnuts. And it wasn't clear to me, at least, exactly what portions of the frame he was interested in tapping. A photo or two might help. He started out talking about drilling and tapping, but switched in midstream to Rivnuts. See: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.bicycles.tech/Cx1f1zC9TsM/uWXvnWNGBQAJ I keep hearing this, but it isn't the case for my bikes which have chainguards. These have three stays, and of those, two are mounted on the bike frame with M5 screws. Threaded hole, no nut on the other side! Then the chainguard is mounted on the stays, likewise with M5s, threaded holes (only here sometimes there are nuts as well). The stays are about 1mm. How thick the frame tube wall is I don't know, but I can take a discarded frame and cut it with an angle grinder to find out, God willing. This ain't to say that rivnuts ain't a good idea, of course. This was the first mention of Rivnuts in the thread (I checked). Also note that he indicates that "the chainguard is mounted on the stays...". Which of the stays, he doesn't mention, but it doesn't matter. Chain stays and seat stays are both rather small diameter. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
drill/tap in frames
On 7/9/2018 9:05 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 9 Jul 2018 15:26:18 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: Actually, the OP was talking about drilling and tapping instead of Rivnuts. And it wasn't clear to me, at least, exactly what portions of the frame he was interested in tapping. A photo or two might help. He started out talking about drilling and tapping, but switched in midstream to Rivnuts. See: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.bicycles.tech/Cx1f1zC9TsM/uWXvnWNGBQAJ I keep hearing this, but it isn't the case for my bikes which have chainguards. These have three stays, and of those, two are mounted on the bike frame with M5 screws. Threaded hole, no nut on the other side! Then the chainguard is mounted on the stays, likewise with M5s, threaded holes (only here sometimes there are nuts as well). The stays are about 1mm. How thick the frame tube wall is I don't know, but I can take a discarded frame and cut it with an angle grinder to find out, God willing. This ain't to say that rivnuts ain't a good idea, of course. This was the first mention of Rivnuts in the thread (I checked). Actually, I mentioned Rivnuts when I posted the very first reply to Emanuel's original post. That was about eight hours before the post you quoted. Also note that he indicates that "the chainguard is mounted on the stays...". Which of the stays, he doesn't mention, but it doesn't matter. Chain stays and seat stays are both rather small diameter. The reason I'd like photos is that Emanuel seems to imply that a hole in the stays is the original method of mounting the chainguard. I think that's unlikely. I wondered if there are brazed-on tabs or some other feature that we don't know about. ISTM that Emanuel isn't very clear on many bike-related terms in English, and he seems to be a novice mechanic in general. Some of his descriptions may be unintentionally misleading. -- - Frank Krygowski |
drill/tap in frames
Frank Krygowski wrote:
:On 7/9/2018 9:05 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: : On Mon, 9 Jul 2018 15:26:18 -0400, Frank Krygowski : wrote: : Actually, the OP was talking about drilling and tapping instead of : Rivnuts. And it wasn't clear to me, at least, exactly what portions of : the frame he was interested in tapping. A photo or two might help. : : He started out talking about drilling and tapping, but switched in : midstream to Rivnuts. See: : https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.bicycles.tech/Cx1f1zC9TsM/uWXvnWNGBQAJ : I keep hearing this, but it isn't the case for : my bikes which have chainguards. : : These have three stays, and of those, two are : mounted on the bike frame with M5 screws. : Threaded hole, no nut on the other side! : : Then the chainguard is mounted on the stays, : likewise with M5s, threaded holes (only here : sometimes there are nuts as well). : : The stays are about 1mm. How thick the frame : tube wall is I don't know, but I can take : a discarded frame and cut it with an angle : grinder to find out, God willing. : : This ain't to say that rivnuts ain't a good : idea, of course. : : This was the first mention of Rivnuts in the thread (I checked). :Actually, I mentioned Rivnuts when I posted the very first reply to :Emanuel's original post. That was about eight hours before the post you :quoted. : Also note that he indicates that "the chainguard is mounted on the : stays...". Which of the stays, he doesn't mention, but it doesn't : matter. Chain stays and seat stays are both rather small diameter. :The reason I'd like photos is that Emanuel seems to imply that a hole in :the stays is the original method of mounting the chainguard. I think :that's unlikely. I wondered if there are brazed-on tabs or some other :feature that we don't know about. I've seen stays with a through hole, and a threaded insert in the hole. -- sig 14 |
drill/tap in frames
Why not use adel clamps? Some call them P clamps. It’s possible to attach them to the frame with rivnuts by enlarging the hole in the clamp and Installing the rivnut to secure the clamp. Then use a machine screw into the rivnut to attach the chain guard.
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drill/tap in frames
On Monday, July 9, 2018 at 10:54:54 AM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 9 Jul 2018 16:21:43 +0000 (UTC), David Scheidt wrote: sms wrote: :On 7/7/2018 7:27 AM, Emanuel Berg wrote: : Are there any secrets to drilling holes in : steel bike frames? I have a couple of discarded : ones I can test on but I thought I'd : ask anyway. : : Do you use normal power hand tools like : a drill-screwdriver and/or a drill press (if : possible with the desired bolt position)? : : Do the normal rules apply, e.g. to get : a threaded hole for an M6, you first drill with : a 5.0mm drill? : : And you can use chainsaw oil, right? :As Jobst Brandt stated: "I don't know many riders who believe that :drilling a hole in a frame tube is a reasonable concept." Who cares what riders think, what do the egineers do? Jobst Brandt was a mechanical engineer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobst_Brandt What's an egineer? http://media.nj.com/entertainment_im...0896-large.jpg It's a six year degree program at MIT. -- Jay Beattie. |
drill/tap in frames
On Tue, 10 Jul 2018 17:01:09 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote: On Monday, July 9, 2018 at 10:54:54 AM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote: What's an egineer? http://media.nj.com/entertainment_im...0896-large.jpg It's a six year degree program at MIT. -- Jay Beattie. Ummm... thanks, I think. The results of over-egineering are epidemic. Some examples: http://www.darkroastedblend.com/2010/07/kitchen-appliances-that-bite.html I have one of the egg cube makers shown: https://www.thegreenhead.com/2006/10/egg-cuber-makes-square-eggs.php I worked on a relatives chicken ranch for a summer when I was a pre-teen. Unfortunately, I was rather useless because I treated the chickens like pets, not food or egg producers. I got along better with the machinery. Fast forward about 7 years, and I'm attending an agricultural college slowly morphing into an engineering college. To get enough classes to avoid getting drafted, I found myself taking agricultural classes. I also started wearing cowboy boots, a string tie, and hanging around the horse unit. No poultry experience, but plenty with agricultural machinery. I can't imaging MIT with a poultry department. Maybe they're working on an egg drop project? https://www.google.com/search?q=egg+drop+project&tbm=isch -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
drill/tap in frames
On Mon, 9 Jul 2018 22:58:39 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote: Actually, I mentioned Rivnuts when I posted the very first reply to Emanuel's original post. That was about eight hours before the post you quoted. Sorry, I missed that. Also note that he indicates that "the chainguard is mounted on the stays...". Which of the stays, he doesn't mention, but it doesn't matter. Chain stays and seat stays are both rather small diameter. The reason I'd like photos is that Emanuel seems to imply that a hole in the stays is the original method of mounting the chainguard. I think that's unlikely. I wondered if there are brazed-on tabs or some other feature that we don't know about. Photos, from his web site: http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/work-photos/ This might be the bicycle. Notice the chain guard and welded mounting bracket in the middle of the right chain stay: http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/work-photos/hermes.jpg Mo http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/work-photos/stand.jpg ISTM that Emanuel isn't very clear on many bike-related terms in English, and he seems to be a novice mechanic in general. Some of his descriptions may be unintentionally misleading. Yep, probably because he thinks and writes like a programmer. In the middle of the main program, he services an interrupt and jumps to different topic. Since the there's no return pointer, he doesn't go back to the main program. He also tries to service all the interrupts and topic changes in parallel, when it would be better if they were handled serially. A general failure to define the parameters and variables used leave the user wondering what equipment he's working with. Without initial comments, it's also difficult to know what he's trying to accomplish. I think his postings would be less buggy if he masked all interrupts, executed only the main program, added enough comments to help debug the problem, and only then branch off into subroutines, which hopefully will eventually return control to the main program. Programming Review (poetry) http://members.cruzio.com/~jeffl/poetry/code.htm -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
drill/tap in frames
On Tuesday, July 10, 2018 at 9:33:34 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 9 Jul 2018 22:58:39 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: The reason I'd like photos is that Emanuel seems to imply that a hole in the stays is the original method of mounting the chainguard. I think that's unlikely. I wondered if there are brazed-on tabs or some other feature that we don't know about. Photos, from his web site: http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/work-photos/ This might be the bicycle. Notice the chain guard and welded mounting bracket in the middle of the right chain stay: http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/work-photos/hermes.jpg There also seems to be a horizontal welded tab protruding from the seat tube above the chainring. (Or underneath the chainring in the photo of the inverted bike.) That may be a mounting point for the top surface of the chainguard. The chainguard also seems to have a bracket that would connect the chainguard's bottom to the underside of the bottom bracket area of the frame. Perhaps that's the spot he wants to drill and tap? - Frank Krygowski |
drill/tap in frames
On 7/10/2018 5:36 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
snip I have one of the egg cube makers shown: https://www.thegreenhead.com/2006/10/egg-cuber-makes-square-eggs.php Who doesn't? No more eggs rolling off the plate. |
drill/tap in frames
On Sat, 07 Jul 2018 16:27:01 +0200, Emanuel Berg
wrote: Are there any secrets to drilling holes in steel bike frames? I have a couple of discarded ones I can test on but I thought I'd ask anyway. Do you use normal power hand tools like a drill-screwdriver and/or a drill press (if possible with the desired bolt position)? Do the normal rules apply, e.g. to get a threaded hole for an M6, you first drill with a 5.0mm drill? And you can use chainsaw oil, right? The greatest problem that I've encountered is that the two bottle cages are usually too close together at the junction of the seat - down tube to fit the drill motor :-) Re tap drill size look it up in any thread manual. The remarkable stand buy you mention isn't accurate at all. A 5x .8 requires a 4.2mm hole. A 10x1.5 a 8.5mm hole. The "1 mm smaller" is accurate twice over the 1mm - 10 mm bolt size ranges :-) -- Cheers, John B. |
drill/tap in frames
On Sat, 07 Jul 2018 12:33:38 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote: On Sat, 7 Jul 2018 11:06:52 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: This group has debated Rivnuts extensively. One poster claims nobody should install a Rivnut unless he has access to a complete machine shop. Others with more experience have said that the installation is easy for anyone with normal mechanical skills. That would be SMS (Steven Scharf) on one of his web pages: http://nordicgroup.us/cageboss/ Since I've made a mess with all the available technologies, Rivnuts (steel and aluminum), brazing (steel), TIG (aluminum), and epoxy glue (plastic boss on aluminum), I'll remain neutral on the matter. Hint: Use steel Rivnuts on steel frames, aluminum Rivnuts on aluminum frame, and plastic straps or clamps on CF (carbon fiber). One can only suppose that those "dumb asses: that manufacture rivnuts deliberately make their product in a number of materials :-) And, it might be added that not knowing what you are doing is not limited to bicycle maintenence :-) -- Cheers, John B. |
drill/tap in frames
On Sat, 7 Jul 2018 13:35:35 -0500, Doug Cimperman
wrote: On 7/7/2018 9:27 AM, Emanuel Berg wrote: Are there any secrets to drilling holes in steel bike frames? I have a couple of discarded ones I can test on but I thought I'd ask anyway. Do you use normal power hand tools like a drill-screwdriver and/or a drill press (if possible with the desired bolt position)? Do the normal rules apply, e.g. to get a threaded hole for an M6, you first drill with a 5.0mm drill? And you can use chainsaw oil, right? From playing with the metalworking machines I have... 1) A drill press w/vise will work far better than a hand drill. If you use a hand drill in thicker (1mm) metal, the bits will go dull really fast and tend to break as they come out the back side of the hole. 2) there are tap/drill charts online that tell you what hole size is needed for which tap size. 3) for cutting fluid--real fluid is best but any lubricating oil you have is way better than nothing. 4) cheap taps tend to be really ****ty--there's no other word for it. The metal is weak, the thread fit is loose and even with lube they are hard to turn in (being ground poorly),,, which makes breaking them even more likely. They aren't worth stealing. But good taps,,, cost money (just like drill bits). The $50 set at Sears would cost you $400+ from a real machinist supply place. I would suggest you buy a single spiral-point tap online, as you need them. For am M6x1mm, this is what I'd get at McMaster: part # 2703A74, $10.72 https://www.mcmaster.com/#2703a74/=1dm1s97 5) and you didn't ask, but just FYI: stainless steel is a royal bitch. It is way, way, way tougher than carbon steel. Other than an angle grinder, cheap tools simply won't cut it. You pretty much need a BIG drill press or mill and good cobalt/carbide drill bits w/real cutting fluid. I have seen posts online where people wanted to drill a hole in a cheap stainless-steel mixing bowl, and they couldn't figure out why the drill bit would just spin around and not go through. Stainless is a far more complex subject. For example, we used to drill holes in the SR-71 fuselage by hand using a simple air drill and high speed drill bit. I've also seen (as you say) people that couldn't drill a hole in a cooking bowl :-) The basic problem is usually that "stainless" frequently "work hardens" very rapidly, sometimes in one drill rotation and changes from a rather benine material to something nearly as hard as glass. -- Cheers, John B. |
drill/tap in frames
On Sun, 08 Jul 2018 01:00:09 +0200, Emanuel Berg
wrote: Doug Cimperman wrote: 1) A drill press w/vise will work far better than a hand drill. If you use a hand drill in thicker (1mm) metal, the bits will go dull really fast and tend to break as they come out the back side of the hole. Drill bits, is there a reason to use those instead of just drills (round)? 2) there are tap/drill charts online that tell you what hole size is needed for which tap size. Yes, I have the table on virtually every calipers and ruler I have... If you are working in the trade, a "drill is generally the machine used to make the hole while the drill BIT is what does the cutting. -- Cheers, John B. |
drill/tap in frames
On Sun, 8 Jul 2018 19:31:00 -0700, sms
wrote: On 7/7/2018 7:27 AM, Emanuel Berg wrote: Are there any secrets to drilling holes in steel bike frames? I have a couple of discarded ones I can test on but I thought I'd ask anyway. Do you use normal power hand tools like a drill-screwdriver and/or a drill press (if possible with the desired bolt position)? Do the normal rules apply, e.g. to get a threaded hole for an M6, you first drill with a 5.0mm drill? And you can use chainsaw oil, right? As Jobst Brandt stated: "I don't know many riders who believe that drilling a hole in a frame tube is a reasonable concept." Yes, I used to read Brandt's posts and I found him to argue false facts just about as frequently as he did true ones. -- Cheers, John B. |
drill/tap in frames
On Mon, 09 Jul 2018 10:55:00 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote: On Mon, 9 Jul 2018 16:21:43 +0000 (UTC), David Scheidt wrote: sms wrote: :On 7/7/2018 7:27 AM, Emanuel Berg wrote: : Are there any secrets to drilling holes in : steel bike frames? I have a couple of discarded : ones I can test on but I thought I'd : ask anyway. : : Do you use normal power hand tools like : a drill-screwdriver and/or a drill press (if : possible with the desired bolt position)? : : Do the normal rules apply, e.g. to get : a threaded hole for an M6, you first drill with : a 5.0mm drill? : : And you can use chainsaw oil, right? :As Jobst Brandt stated: "I don't know many riders who believe that :drilling a hole in a frame tube is a reasonable concept." Who cares what riders think, what do the egineers do? Jobst Brandt was a mechanical engineer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobst_Brandt What's an egineer? One might comment that a fairly large number of bridges, that subsequently fell down, were designed by the engineers of the times :-) -- Cheers, John B. |
drill/tap in frames
Frank Krygowski wrote:
There also seems to be a horizontal welded tab protruding from the seat tube above the chainring. (Or underneath the chainring in the photo of the inverted bike.) That may be a mounting point for the top surface of the chainguard. The chainguard also seems to have a bracket that would connect the chainguard's bottom to the underside of the bottom bracket area of the frame. Perhaps that's the spot he wants to drill and tap? The chainguard typically has a three stays. One down below, to the bottom bracket. There is a threaded hole both ways, i.e. two such occurrences. One stay front. There is usually two threaded holes on the stay/chainguard interface. But here there is more variation as sometimes it is a bent bracket screwed into the frame, also threaded with no nut. But sometimes the bracket appears to be an extention of the frame, I suppose it is welded as it is a steel frame. Then there is a stay at the back. This is sometimes a likewise extention of the frame as above (with a single threaded hole) but sometimes it is a loose part, a bracket bent around the seat stay tube, much like the component that connects the rear hub brake arm to the chain stay. If this is the case, there is no threading to it, save for the bolt that has a nut on the other side. Actually this is not what I had in mind for drilling and tapping, that was a bottle cage on the down/diagonal tube. I put it there with cable ties ("wires") but there was an annoying sound while riding the bike. The chainguard stay example I brought up to contradict the claim that it cannot be done because of too thin tube walls. The stays are not very thin, and besides they are screwed into the frame, so there are possibly two, at least one example how a small width would suffice. I write "possibly" because it was brought up possibly the tubes are butted. I doubt that because these bikes are commuter bikes, solid, but not optimized. But I suppose anything is possible. -- underground experts united http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 |
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