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-   -   Lithium Ion vs NiMh battery (http://www.cyclebanter.com/showthread.php?t=254965)

Sir Ridesalot October 21st 17 05:40 AM

Lithium Ion vs NiMh battery
 
A while back I asked about using an external NiMh battery instead of an external Lithium Ion battery on a light that came with a Lithium Ion battery. Due to a problem with the Lithium Ion battery pack of mine not holding a charge or for some other reason battery related for the light suddenly going out I put a Tamiya connector onto the light's wire and used my NiMh battery.. Guess what? It works perfectly and my battery run time is a LOT longer now than what it was. Seeing as I have a few of these 5000Mah NiMh batteries from my RC boats I can now ride VERY FAR at night with no worry about the light going out suddenly or dimming drastically at low speeds or when stopped.

Cheers

somebody[_2_] October 21st 17 05:52 PM

Lithium Ion vs NiMh battery
 
On Fri, 20 Oct 2017 21:40:42 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

A while back I asked about using an external NiMh battery instead of an external Lithium Ion battery on a light that came with a Lithium Ion battery. Due to a problem with the Lithium Ion battery pack of mine not holding a charge or for some other reason battery related for the light suddenly going out I put a Tamiya connector onto the light's wire and used my NiMh battery. Guess what? It works perfectly and my battery run time is a LOT longer now than what it was. Seeing as I have a few of these 5000Mah NiMh batteries from my RC boats I can now ride VERY FAR at night with no worry about the light going out suddenly or dimming drastically at low speeds or when stopped.

Cheers

You got a fake battery. Chinese sellers frequenty relabel
low-capacity batteries to show something much higher. Search youtube
for fake li-ion battery - lots of stuff like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFJUPZ0pkog

For me a Chinese li-ion cell is good if it measures 3/4 the label
capacity. Resellers will ship good batteries until they have a decent
number of good reviews and them start shipping the crap cells.

So if you buy some measure capacity right away. Document the results
with photos. Then go back to eBay or Aliexpress and go through the
dispute process. Works for me.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


Jeff Liebermann October 21st 17 06:01 PM

Lithium Ion vs NiMh battery
 
On Fri, 20 Oct 2017 21:40:42 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

A while back I asked about using an external NiMh battery instead of an external
Lithium Ion battery on a light that came with a Lithium Ion battery. Due to a
problem with the Lithium Ion battery pack of mine not holding a charge or for
some other reason battery related for the light suddenly going out I put a
Tamiya connector onto the light's wire and used my NiMh battery. Guess what?
It works perfectly and my battery run time is a LOT longer now than what it was.
Seeing as I have a few of these 5000Mah NiMh batteries from my RC boats I can
now ride VERY FAR at night with no worry about the light going out suddenly
or dimming drastically at low speeds or when stopped.


My guess(tm) is that there is either something wrong with your LiIon
battery pack, or the LiIon battery pack was assembled using cheap junk
LiIon cells. I've seen both, mostly from 18650 cells. Identifying
counterfeit cells is difficult:
https://batterybro.com/blogs/18650-wholesale-battery-reviews/104619270-can-you-identify-the-fake-lg-hg2-18650-battery
I used to weigh the cells and compare them with a known good cell, but
that hasn't worked since the counterfeiters started adding waxes sand
to the cell to increase the weight.

You NiMH substitute should work as long as the battery voltage is
roughly the same and you charge the NiMH battery with a charger made
for NiMH, not for LiIon. Measure the operating voltage and current
going to the unspecified light and make sure you're not exceeding its
ratings.

Another possible problem is that the NiMH battery pack may have a
higher self-discharge rate than the LiIon. If you're going for rides
that require long operating time, charging before riding might be
necessary.

It might be interesting if you do an autopsy on the defective LiIon
battery pack. Without charging the pack first, break it open or peel
off the wrapping, and measure each cell voltage. My guess(tm) is that
you'll find most of the cells at around 3.5VDC, and one cell measuring
zero volts.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Joerg[_2_] October 21st 17 08:13 PM

Lithium Ion vs NiMh battery
 
On 2017-10-21 09:52, somebody wrote:
On Fri, 20 Oct 2017 21:40:42 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

A while back I asked about using an external NiMh battery instead
of an external Lithium Ion battery on a light that came with a
Lithium Ion battery. Due to a problem with the Lithium Ion battery
pack of mine not holding a charge or for some other reason battery
related for the light suddenly going out I put a Tamiya connector
onto the light's wire and used my NiMh battery. Guess what? It
works perfectly and my battery run time is a LOT longer now than
what it was. Seeing as I have a few of these 5000Mah NiMh batteries
from my RC boats I can now ride VERY FAR at night with no worry
about the light going out suddenly or dimming drastically at low
speeds or when stopped.


As others have said you got taken to the cleaners with the Li-Ion
batteries. The energy density of NiMH is a far cry from that of Li-Ion.
That goes for weight and size. Li-Ion is roughly a factor of two better
in both domains.

http://www.epectec.com/batteries/cell-comparison.html

Therefore, I have now equipped both bikes with Li-Ion. The road bike has
eight 18650 cells, the MTB has four because I need full brightness less
often. The lights are the same and consume about 8W on highest power. On
the road bike I can ride 4-5h with the ship fully lit.


Cheers

You got a fake battery. Chinese sellers frequenty relabel
low-capacity batteries to show something much higher. Search
youtube for fake li-ion battery - lots of stuff like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFJUPZ0pkog

For me a Chinese li-ion cell is good if it measures 3/4 the label
capacity.



No kidding, sometimes way less than half. The topper so far was a
four-cell Li-Ion pack from China that cut out after less than 1.5h on
hi-beam. Opened it and two cells had no (!) connections. They seemed to
have sand in them.

I have heard that some Chinese vendors re-use 18650 cells plucked from
recycled electronics shipped in from the US and other Western countries.
They supposedly sell them in "new" shrink-wrap battery blocks.


Resellers will ship good batteries until they have a decent
number of good reviews and them start shipping the crap cells.

So if you buy some measure capacity right away. Document the
results with photos. Then go back to eBay or Aliexpress and go
through the dispute process. Works for me.


Except for that first one where I received a full refund I have to say
that even Chinese Li-Ion batteries run circles around NiMH. My current
ones are from a "brand" I believe is called "Tangsfire" and their
capacity is close to what the labels read.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[email protected] October 21st 17 08:18 PM

Lithium Ion vs NiMh battery
 
On Saturday, October 21, 2017 at 12:12:59 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-10-21 09:52, somebody wrote:
On Fri, 20 Oct 2017 21:40:42 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

A while back I asked about using an external NiMh battery instead
of an external Lithium Ion battery on a light that came with a
Lithium Ion battery. Due to a problem with the Lithium Ion battery
pack of mine not holding a charge or for some other reason battery
related for the light suddenly going out I put a Tamiya connector
onto the light's wire and used my NiMh battery. Guess what? It
works perfectly and my battery run time is a LOT longer now than
what it was. Seeing as I have a few of these 5000Mah NiMh batteries
from my RC boats I can now ride VERY FAR at night with no worry
about the light going out suddenly or dimming drastically at low
speeds or when stopped.


As others have said you got taken to the cleaners with the Li-Ion
batteries. The energy density of NiMH is a far cry from that of Li-Ion.
That goes for weight and size. Li-Ion is roughly a factor of two better
in both domains.

http://www.epectec.com/batteries/cell-comparison.html

Therefore, I have now equipped both bikes with Li-Ion. The road bike has
eight 18650 cells, the MTB has four because I need full brightness less
often. The lights are the same and consume about 8W on highest power. On
the road bike I can ride 4-5h with the ship fully lit.


Cheers

You got a fake battery. Chinese sellers frequenty relabel
low-capacity batteries to show something much higher. Search
youtube for fake li-ion battery - lots of stuff like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFJUPZ0pkog

For me a Chinese li-ion cell is good if it measures 3/4 the label
capacity.



No kidding, sometimes way less than half. The topper so far was a
four-cell Li-Ion pack from China that cut out after less than 1.5h on
hi-beam. Opened it and two cells had no (!) connections. They seemed to
have sand in them.

I have heard that some Chinese vendors re-use 18650 cells plucked from
recycled electronics shipped in from the US and other Western countries.
They supposedly sell them in "new" shrink-wrap battery blocks.


Resellers will ship good batteries until they have a decent
number of good reviews and them start shipping the crap cells.

So if you buy some measure capacity right away. Document the
results with photos. Then go back to eBay or Aliexpress and go
through the dispute process. Works for me.


Except for that first one where I received a full refund I have to say
that even Chinese Li-Ion batteries run circles around NiMH. My current
ones are from a "brand" I believe is called "Tangsfire" and their
capacity is close to what the labels read.


They're pretty close to having lithium metal cells now and they will have both a higher storage and little to no chance of exploding.

Joerg[_2_] October 21st 17 08:29 PM

Lithium Ion vs NiMh battery
 
On 2017-10-21 12:18, wrote:
On Saturday, October 21, 2017 at 12:12:59 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-10-21 09:52, somebody wrote:
On Fri, 20 Oct 2017 21:40:42 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

A while back I asked about using an external NiMh battery
instead of an external Lithium Ion battery on a light that came
with a Lithium Ion battery. Due to a problem with the Lithium
Ion battery pack of mine not holding a charge or for some other
reason battery related for the light suddenly going out I put a
Tamiya connector onto the light's wire and used my NiMh
battery. Guess what? It works perfectly and my battery run time
is a LOT longer now than what it was. Seeing as I have a few of
these 5000Mah NiMh batteries from my RC boats I can now ride
VERY FAR at night with no worry about the light going out
suddenly or dimming drastically at low speeds or when stopped.


As others have said you got taken to the cleaners with the Li-Ion
batteries. The energy density of NiMH is a far cry from that of
Li-Ion. That goes for weight and size. Li-Ion is roughly a factor
of two better in both domains.

http://www.epectec.com/batteries/cell-comparison.html

Therefore, I have now equipped both bikes with Li-Ion. The road
bike has eight 18650 cells, the MTB has four because I need full
brightness less often. The lights are the same and consume about 8W
on highest power. On the road bike I can ride 4-5h with the ship
fully lit.


Cheers
You got a fake battery. Chinese sellers frequenty relabel
low-capacity batteries to show something much higher. Search
youtube for fake li-ion battery - lots of stuff like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFJUPZ0pkog

For me a Chinese li-ion cell is good if it measures 3/4 the
label capacity.



No kidding, sometimes way less than half. The topper so far was a
four-cell Li-Ion pack from China that cut out after less than 1.5h
on hi-beam. Opened it and two cells had no (!) connections. They
seemed to have sand in them.

I have heard that some Chinese vendors re-use 18650 cells plucked
from recycled electronics shipped in from the US and other Western
countries. They supposedly sell them in "new" shrink-wrap battery
blocks.


Resellers will ship good batteries until they have a decent
number of good reviews and them start shipping the crap cells.

So if you buy some measure capacity right away. Document the
results with photos. Then go back to eBay or Aliexpress and go
through the dispute process. Works for me.


Except for that first one where I received a full refund I have to
say that even Chinese Li-Ion batteries run circles around NiMH. My
current ones are from a "brand" I believe is called "Tangsfire" and
their capacity is close to what the labels read.


They're pretty close to having lithium metal cells now and they will
have both a higher storage and little to no chance of exploding.


That would be nice. I remember a story where a cyclist strained to catch
up to another rider, to tell him that the little bag under his seat was
on fire.

I keep mine around 4.1V/cell when topped off to play it safe. If one of
the bikes is going to remain parked for more than a day I like to keep
them at 3.9V/cell or less which increases their life time. That still
represents plenty of charge for a surprise errand ride. The day before a
long ride or in the morning I plug it in for a top-off. Both bikes are
parked near an outlet and the charger is always ready.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Oculus Lights October 22nd 17 01:31 AM

Lithium Ion vs NiMh battery
 
Here's my source for Panasonic 18650 LI cells:
https://liionwholesale.com/?refer1=a...RoCFkgQAvD_BwE

Support a good American distributor selling tested and verified batteries, at competitive prices even for small quantities. They also sell the 6 cell LUC brand charger and 4 bay Opus analyzer/charger.

These test out in my Opus tester/charger at 3500+mAH in both charging and discharging. I test charging at 2A and drain at 1A,the Opus' limit. Burn time in the light is measured at each step from 9A max (in the 3000Extreme) down to 70mA.

My 26650 come in large quantities through a direct rep from Heter, a humongous scale better maker in China who makes many cells for other big brand name electronic companies, who are considered to make their own, but don't. Minimum quantities in the 1000 lot size for the measured 5500mAH unbranded ones I get for the Oculus lights and sell competitively versus the Chinesium crap. Maybe ~1 in 100 might not be up to spec, and only two out of 1000 have been DOA. The blue Tenergy brand 26650, unchipped, sold in Fry's, with a black seal around the + end contact, are likely the same but at Fry's much higher retail price, but never know the true capacity without testing, draining, recharging, repeatedly for at least a hundred cycles. Another problem with Chinesium is that they tend not to last nearly as many charge cycles as authentic first quality batteries, regardless of the capacity when allegedly new. That versus one of the Heter's I've been charging and draining almost daily since February, that still test charges at 5500mAH.

Ian Field October 22nd 17 09:00 PM

Lithium Ion vs NiMh battery
 


"Joerg" wrote in message
...
On 2017-10-21 12:18, wrote:
On Saturday, October 21, 2017 at 12:12:59 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-10-21 09:52, somebody wrote:
On Fri, 20 Oct 2017 21:40:42 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

A while back I asked about using an external NiMh battery
instead of an external Lithium Ion battery on a light that came
with a Lithium Ion battery. Due to a problem with the Lithium
Ion battery pack of mine not holding a charge or for some other
reason battery related for the light suddenly going out I put a
Tamiya connector onto the light's wire and used my NiMh
battery. Guess what? It works perfectly and my battery run time
is a LOT longer now than what it was. Seeing as I have a few of
these 5000Mah NiMh batteries from my RC boats I can now ride
VERY FAR at night with no worry about the light going out
suddenly or dimming drastically at low speeds or when stopped.


As others have said you got taken to the cleaners with the Li-Ion
batteries. The energy density of NiMH is a far cry from that of
Li-Ion. That goes for weight and size. Li-Ion is roughly a factor
of two better in both domains.

http://www.epectec.com/batteries/cell-comparison.html

Therefore, I have now equipped both bikes with Li-Ion. The road
bike has eight 18650 cells, the MTB has four because I need full
brightness less often. The lights are the same and consume about 8W
on highest power. On the road bike I can ride 4-5h with the ship
fully lit.


Cheers
You got a fake battery. Chinese sellers frequenty relabel
low-capacity batteries to show something much higher. Search
youtube for fake li-ion battery - lots of stuff like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFJUPZ0pkog

For me a Chinese li-ion cell is good if it measures 3/4 the
label capacity.


No kidding, sometimes way less than half. The topper so far was a
four-cell Li-Ion pack from China that cut out after less than 1.5h
on hi-beam. Opened it and two cells had no (!) connections. They
seemed to have sand in them.

I have heard that some Chinese vendors re-use 18650 cells plucked
from recycled electronics shipped in from the US and other Western
countries. They supposedly sell them in "new" shrink-wrap battery
blocks.


Resellers will ship good batteries until they have a decent
number of good reviews and them start shipping the crap cells.

So if you buy some measure capacity right away. Document the
results with photos. Then go back to eBay or Aliexpress and go
through the dispute process. Works for me.


Except for that first one where I received a full refund I have to
say that even Chinese Li-Ion batteries run circles around NiMH. My
current ones are from a "brand" I believe is called "Tangsfire" and
their capacity is close to what the labels read.


They're pretty close to having lithium metal cells now and they will
have both a higher storage and little to no chance of exploding.


That would be nice. I remember a story where a cyclist strained to catch
up to another rider, to tell him that the little bag under his seat was on
fire.


You can't just use any old lithium battery with any old charger. Full
terminal voltage is critical and its not a good idea to leave them float
charging longer than the topping charge period.

Early cells called for 4.1V, but most are 4.2V now - a while back I
encountered a cell with 4.3V specified on the data sheet.


Ian Field October 22nd 17 09:07 PM

Lithium Ion vs NiMh battery
 


"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 20 Oct 2017 21:40:42 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

A while back I asked about using an external NiMh battery instead of an
external
Lithium Ion battery on a light that came with a Lithium Ion battery. Due
to a
problem with the Lithium Ion battery pack of mine not holding a charge or
for
some other reason battery related for the light suddenly going out I put a
Tamiya connector onto the light's wire and used my NiMh battery. Guess
what?
It works perfectly and my battery run time is a LOT longer now than what
it was.
Seeing as I have a few of these 5000Mah NiMh batteries from my RC boats I
can
now ride VERY FAR at night with no worry about the light going out
suddenly
or dimming drastically at low speeds or when stopped.


My guess(tm) is that there is either something wrong with your LiIon
battery pack, or the LiIon battery pack was assembled using cheap junk
LiIon cells. I've seen both, mostly from 18650 cells. Identifying
counterfeit cells is difficult:
https://batterybro.com/blogs/18650-wholesale-battery-reviews/104619270-can-you-identify-the-fake-lg-hg2-18650-battery
I used to weigh the cells and compare them with a known good cell, but
that hasn't worked since the counterfeiters started adding waxes sand
to the cell to increase the weight.


All my 18650s were rescued from discarded laptop packs - if I get any duds,
there's no point complaining to anyone.

The 3W Tesco headlamp uses one, but my biggest application is my e
cigarette. That's been in service well over 5yrs and I've only had to swap
out a couple of battery sets.

The one that came with the Tesco unit is only 1800mAh - I get a lot more
running time from salvaged cells.


James[_8_] October 22nd 17 09:51 PM

Lithium Ion vs NiMh battery
 
On 22/10/17 11:31, Oculus Lights wrote:
Here's my source for Panasonic 18650 LI cells:
https://liionwholesale.com/?refer1=a...RoCFkgQAvD_BwE

Support a good American distributor selling tested and verified
batteries, at competitive prices even for small quantities. They
also sell the 6 cell LUC brand charger and 4 bay Opus
analyzer/charger.

These test out in my Opus tester/charger at 3500+mAH in both charging
and discharging. I test charging at 2A and drain at 1A,the Opus'
limit. Burn time in the light is measured at each step from 9A max
(in the 3000Extreme) down to 70mA.

My 26650 come in large quantities through a direct rep from Heter, a
humongous scale better maker in China who makes many cells for other
big brand name electronic companies, who are considered to make their
own, but don't. Minimum quantities in the 1000 lot size for the
measured 5500mAH unbranded ones I get for the Oculus lights and sell
competitively versus the Chinesium crap. Maybe ~1 in 100 might not
be up to spec, and only two out of 1000 have been DOA. The blue
Tenergy brand 26650, unchipped, sold in Fry's, with a black seal
around the + end contact, are likely the same but at Fry's much
higher retail price, but never know the true capacity without
testing, draining, recharging, repeatedly for at least a hundred
cycles. Another problem with Chinesium is that they tend not to last
nearly as many charge cycles as authentic first quality batteries,
regardless of the capacity when allegedly new. That versus one of
the Heter's I've been charging and draining almost daily since
February, that still test charges at 5500mAH.


The battery for my light went flat the other day so I ate a banana,
drank some water, and it was recharged.

(Dynamo users humour)

--
JS


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