rear-facing dropouts
 

Today there was a gorgeous open-frame steel
bike from the 60s or 70s, with the favorite
635 tires.

The only wrench in the machinery is that it has
rear-facing dropouts, and the o-bolts to grab
the rear wheel axle to tighten the chain were
missing. If it ever had any! Or were they
always there on such bikes?

I think such, now exotic spare parts can be
difficult to find... Can you get away
without them?

I read [1] that on track bikes, also with
rear-facing dropouts, they don't have them (the
o-bolts). But I suppose people set the tension
before every race! I also read that track bikes
do not have QRs, because "threaded nuts will
hold the chain tension far longer", and that
such bikes have a more robust, 1/8in chain.
I bring this up because it seems to contradict
what was said in another thread that QR is
stronger than nuts. Obviously, people don't
race track bikes as others do commuters!
Unless I'm missing something else (I never even
saw a track bike IRL).

BTW aren't all nuts "threaded"? Except those
who participate in reality TV shows...

[1] page 188 in
@book{complete-road-bike-maintenance,
author = {Guy Andrews},
ISBN = {978 1 4081 7093 9},
publisher = {Bloomsbury},
title = {Complete Road Bike Maintenance},
year = 2013
}

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

rear-facing dropouts
 

On Wednesday, October 24, 2018 at 6:59:59 AM UTC-4, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Today there was a gorgeous open-frame steel
bike from the 60s or 70s, with the favorite
635 tires.

The only wrench in the machinery is that it has
rear-facing dropouts, and the o-bolts to grab
the rear wheel axle to tighten the chain were
missing. If it ever had any! Or were they
always there on such bikes?

I think such, now exotic spare parts can be
difficult to find... Can you get away
without them?

I read [1] that on track bikes, also with
rear-facing dropouts, they don't have them (the
o-bolts). But I suppose people set the tension
before every race! I also read that track bikes
do not have QRs, because "threaded nuts will
hold the chain tension far longer", and that
such bikes have a more robust, 1/8in chain.
I bring this up because it seems to contradict
what was said in another thread that QR is
stronger than nuts. Obviously, people don't
race track bikes as others do commuters!
Unless I'm missing something else (I never even
saw a track bike IRL).

BTW aren't all nuts "threaded"? Except those
who participate in reality TV shows...

[1] page 188 in
@book{complete-road-bike-maintenance,
author = {Guy Andrews},
ISBN = {978 1 4081 7093 9},
publisher = {Bloomsbury},
title = {Complete Road Bike Maintenance},
year = 2013
}

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Rearward facing slots for holding the rear wheel in place are called TRACK ENDS not dropout.

No, the thread bolt with washer and nut to go on the threaded axle of a coaster brake or 3-speed bicycle aren't mandatory. they were mostly used to make it easier to replace the wheel in the same location it was in before removal for changing a tube or tire.

Track bicycles can have every bit as much strain on the drivetrain as any derailleur equipped bicycle. Since most rack bicycle racing is done on an indoor track there is not the same need for a quick release as there is on a road bicycle racing on the road where there is a lot more chance of getting a puncture and thus needing to QUICKLY change the wheel.

I don't know if it's still going on but in recent years there was quite the movement of bicyclists using fixed gear or track bicycles for commuting due to the simplicity of such bicycles i.e. no derailleurs or shifters ,or (in a lot of cases) brake levers and brake calipers.

Cheers

rear-facing dropouts
 

On 10/24/2018 5:59 AM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Today there was a gorgeous open-frame steel
bike from the 60s or 70s, with the favorite
635 tires.

The only wrench in the machinery is that it has
rear-facing dropouts, and the o-bolts to grab
the rear wheel axle to tighten the chain were
missing. If it ever had any! Or were they
always there on such bikes?

I think such, now exotic spare parts can be
difficult to find... Can you get away
without them?

I read [1] that on track bikes, also with
rear-facing dropouts, they don't have them (the
o-bolts). But I suppose people set the tension
before every race! I also read that track bikes
do not have QRs, because "threaded nuts will
hold the chain tension far longer", and that
such bikes have a more robust, 1/8in chain.
I bring this up because it seems to contradict
what was said in another thread that QR is
stronger than nuts. Obviously, people don't
race track bikes as others do commuters!
Unless I'm missing something else (I never even
saw a track bike IRL).

BTW aren't all nuts "threaded"? Except those
who participate in reality TV shows...

[1] page 188 in
@book{complete-road-bike-maintenance,
author = {Guy Andrews},
ISBN = {978 1 4081 7093 9},
publisher = {Bloomsbury},
title = {Complete Road Bike Maintenance},
year = 2013
}


Chain tensioners are handy on roadsters to get the wheel
centered what with full mudguards, chain case, stirrup brake
and so on before tightening the axle nuts. They are not
necessary by any means and in fact the #1 problem with them
is riders setting chain tension too high which causes
excessive chain and bearing wear.

A QR holds as tight or tighter than axle nuts but either are
adequate especially on single speed where the gearing is not
as low as touring setups. Racing rules for track prohibit
QR. That and tradition are why real track bikes use solid
axles. (My own fixie is QR, never posed any problem whatsoever))

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

rear-facing dropouts
 

On Wednesday, October 24, 2018 at 1:13:48 PM UTC+1, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

Rearward facing slots for holding the rear wheel in place are called TRACK ENDS not dropout.

Is there a reason, besides the common use of hub gearboxes, so many Dutch commuters these days have track ends rather than dropouts?

Andre Jute
The greatest icon ever is -- ?

rear-facing dropouts
 

AMuzi wrote:

Chain tensioners are handy on roadsters to
get the wheel centered what with full
mudguards, chain case, stirrup brake and so
on before tightening the axle nuts. They are
not necessary by any means

Great, that's what I thought!

and in fact the #1 problem with them is
riders setting chain tension too high which
causes excessive chain and bearing wear.

And bearing wear BEFORE chain wear, so one
cannot ride it until chain wear makes it right,
even if one is that destructive/lazy!
Many people put there chains too tight on
dropout bikes. But it happens easily enough!
OTOH as many people ride their bikes until the
chain is so loose it starts to hang and rattle
with everything else, and they still don't
bother (or know/care) as long as the bike
rides. I don't know. I'd like to know at least
something about everything that goes on around
me. But I suppose it is a good sign that not
everyone only thinks about bikes, computers,
gear, and so on...

A QR holds as tight or tighter than axle nuts
but either are adequate especially on single
speed where the gearing is not as low as
touring setups. Racing rules for track
prohibit QR. That and tradition are why real
track bikes use solid axles. (My own fixie is
QR, never posed any problem whatsoever))

Great!

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

rear-facing dropouts
 

Andre Jute wrote:

Is there a reason, besides the common use of
hub gearboxes, so many Dutch commuters these
days have track ends rather than dropouts?

Must be some modern thing because here at least
the Torpedo 2 (Duomatic), the
Torpedo 3 (Dreigang), as well as the
Torpedo 5 (Pentasport) are all used with
dropouts, and dome nuts, sometimes with holes
in them to allow for the gear chain :)

I don't see why they wouldn't work with tracks
tho or what influence that would have?

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

rear-facing dropouts
 

As for terminology, here is what it says:

Track bikes have rear-facing dropouts and
120mm-space hubs (rather than 130mm of
a road bike). Rear-facing dropouts offer
a stronger and simpler solution to
adjusting chain tension and accommodating
variations in sprocket (gear) sizes.

Page 188,

@book{complete-road-bike-maintenance,
author = {Guy Andrews},
ISBN = {978 1 4081 7093 9},
publisher = {Bloomsbury},
title = {Complete Road Bike Maintenance},
year = 2013
}

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

rear-facing dropouts
 

On 10/24/2018 9:37 AM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
As for terminology, here is what it says:

Track bikes have rear-facing dropouts and
120mm-space hubs (rather than 130mm of
a road bike). Rear-facing dropouts offer
a stronger and simpler solution to
adjusting chain tension and accommodating
variations in sprocket (gear) sizes.

Page 188,

@book{complete-road-bike-maintenance,
author = {Guy Andrews},
ISBN = {978 1 4081 7093 9},
publisher = {Bloomsbury},
title = {Complete Road Bike Maintenance},
year = 2013
}


Nonsense.

There's no functional difference for chain tension or
gearing between this:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...ast/mer11b.jpg
and this:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/endaxis.jpg

Author probably meant to contrast single-point ends; either
composed badly or you snipped the relevant part.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

rear-facing dropouts
 

AMuzi wrote:

Nonsense.

There's no functional difference for chain
tension or gearing between this:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...ast/mer11b.jpg
and this:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/endaxis.jpg

Author probably meant to contrast
single-point ends; either composed badly or
you snipped the relevant part.

It is an exact quote of an entire paragraph.
The paragraph before that is about QR vs. nuts;
the paragraph after is about 1/8in chain vs
3/32in.

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

rear-facing dropouts
 

On 10/24/18 3:59 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Wednesday, October 24, 2018 at 1:13:48 PM UTC+1, Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

Rearward facing slots for holding the rear wheel in place are
called TRACK ENDS not dropout.

Is there a reason, besides the common use of hub gearboxes, so many
Dutch commuters these days have track ends rather than dropouts?

Stops the rear wheel falling off.

rear-facing dropouts
 

Tosspot wrote:

Is there a reason, besides the common use of
hub gearboxes, so many Dutch commuters these
days have track ends rather than dropouts?

Stops the rear wheel falling off.

Is this a joke or do you mean if the nuts come
loose the chain will still hold the wheel to
make time for an emergency stop?

Yeah, what *are* the "functional difference[s]"
between track ends and dropouts? I always
considered dropouts better and more modern but
now that I think about it I don't know how or
why I came to that.

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

rear-facing dropouts
 

On 10/24/2018 1:14 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Tosspot wrote:

Is there a reason, besides the common use of
hub gearboxes, so many Dutch commuters these
days have track ends rather than dropouts?

Stops the rear wheel falling off.

Is this a joke or do you mean if the nuts come
loose the chain will still hold the wheel to
make time for an emergency stop?

Yeah, what *are* the "functional difference[s]"
between track ends and dropouts? I always
considered dropouts better and more modern but
now that I think about it I don't know how or
why I came to that.


Click to enlarge images:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/sisend.html

For single gear (fixed, FW, internal gearbox) you need an
inch of horizontal adjustment so any design except
single-point ends work. For modern index derailleur gearing
there are other subtleties to optimize shift response.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

rear-facing dropouts
 

On Wednesday, October 24, 2018 at 2:14:41 PM UTC-4, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Tosspot wrote:

Is there a reason, besides the common use of
hub gearboxes, so many Dutch commuters these
days have track ends rather than dropouts?

Stops the rear wheel falling off.

Is this a joke or do you mean if the nuts come
loose the chain will still hold the wheel to
make time for an emergency stop?

Yeah, what *are* the "functional difference[s]"
between track ends and dropouts? I always
considered dropouts better and more modern but
now that I think about it I don't know how or
why I came to that.

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

One advantage with rear facing track ends is that you can have the tire nearly touching the seat tube and still be able to get the wheel off without having to deflate it. That's because you don't need space with track ends to pull the wheel forward so the axle clears the slot. You do with forward facing dropouts.

Forward facing dropouts give you a good place to hang your derailleur.

Cheers

rear-facing dropouts
 

On Wednesday, October 24, 2018 at 4:55:46 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/24/2018 9:37 AM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
As for terminology, here is what it says:

Track bikes have rear-facing dropouts and
120mm-space hubs (rather than 130mm of
a road bike). Rear-facing dropouts offer
a stronger and simpler solution to
adjusting chain tension and accommodating
variations in sprocket (gear) sizes.

Page 188,

@book{complete-road-bike-maintenance,
author = {Guy Andrews},
ISBN = {978 1 4081 7093 9},
publisher = {Bloomsbury},
title = {Complete Road Bike Maintenance},
year = 2013
}


Nonsense.

There's no functional difference for chain tension or
gearing between this:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...ast/mer11b.jpg
and this:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/endaxis.jpg

Hell, yes, of course there is a difference between rear facing and forward facing slots. The weight of the chain cannot pull the wheel out of the slot while you're trying to fix it with rear facing slots, whereas with forward facing slots you need a second person to hold the wheel in the slot while you turn the spanner.

Andre Jute
In real life people don't have a third, fourth and fifth hand. Well, my bonobo often seemed to be quadridexterous, but they were chimps, not bicyclists.

rear-facing dropouts
 

On 10/24/18 9:29 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Wednesday, October 24, 2018 at 2:14:41 PM UTC-4, Emanuel Berg
wrote:
Tosspot wrote:

Is there a reason, besides the common use of hub gearboxes, so
many Dutch commuters these days have track ends rather than
dropouts?

Stops the rear wheel falling off.

Is this a joke or do you mean if the nuts come loose the chain will
still hold the wheel to make time for an emergency stop?

Yeah, what *are* the "functional difference[s]" between track ends
and dropouts? I always considered dropouts better and more modern
but now that I think about it I don't know how or why I came to
that.

-- underground experts united http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

One advantage with rear facing track ends is that you can have the
tire nearly touching the seat tube and still be able to get the wheel
off without having to deflate it. That's because you don't need space
with track ends to pull the wheel forward so the axle clears the
slot. You do with forward facing dropouts.

Forward facing dropouts give you a good place to hang your
derailleur.

There is no real reason 'track' fork ends can't have a derailleur, they
just don't. The advantages of each style are well known, but basically
single/fixes/hubs like a track end for 'easy' chain adjustment, every
body else would use forward facing or vertical for ease of getting the
rear wheel off/on. In my case, I use a vertical, with one of these,
albeit generic,

https://surlybikes.com/parts/drivetrain/singleator

Which works very well imho, giving me the perceived advantages of a hub
drive, without the hassle of chain tensioning or the fudge or a short
reach derailleur. Yes Andre, I know, I can live with it.

See also

https://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/Drop..._101_3354.html

rear-facing dropouts
 

On Thursday, October 25, 2018 at 1:16:32 AM UTC-4, Tosspot wrote:
Snipped

There is no real reason 'track' fork ends can't have a derailleur, they
just don't. The advantages of each style are well known, but basically
single/fixes/hubs like a track end for 'easy' chain adjustment, every
body else would use forward facing or vertical for ease of getting the
rear wheel off/on. In my case, I use a vertical, with one of these,
albeit generic,

https://surlybikes.com/parts/drivetrain/singleator

Which works very well imho, giving me the perceived advantages of a hub
drive, without the hassle of chain tensioning or the fudge or a short
reach derailleur. Yes Andre, I know, I can live with it.

See also

https://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/Drop..._101_3354.html

Looks a lot as though that Sinleator was developed from either a V-brake caliper or an old school straight arm cantilever brake arm.

Cheers

rear-facing dropouts
 

Andre Jute wrote:

whereas with forward facing slots you need
a second person to hold the wheel in the slot
while you turn the spanner.

Easier to turn the bike upside down and let the
axis fall into the dropout with the chain on.

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

rear-facing dropouts
 

On Thursday, October 25, 2018 at 3:37:48 AM UTC-4, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:

whereas with forward facing slots you need
a second person to hold the wheel in the slot
while you turn the spanner.

Easier to turn the bike upside down and let the
axis fall into the dropout with the chain on.

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Yet MILLIONS of people who own bicycles with forward facing dropouts and nutted rear axles manage to replace a rear wheel all by themselves often at the side of the road and without having to turn the bicycle upside down either.

Cheers

rear-facing dropouts
 

On 10/25/2018 12:16 AM, Tosspot wrote:
On 10/24/18 9:29 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Wednesday, October 24, 2018 at 2:14:41 PM UTC-4,
Emanuel Berg
wrote:
Tosspot wrote:

Is there a reason, besides the common use of hub
gearboxes, so
many Dutch commuters these days have track ends rather
than
dropouts?

Stops the rear wheel falling off.

Is this a joke or do you mean if the nuts come loose the
chain will
still hold the wheel to make time for an emergency stop?

Yeah, what *are* the "functional difference[s]" between
track ends
and dropouts? I always considered dropouts better and
more modern
but now that I think about it I don't know how or why I
came to
that.

-- underground experts united http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

One advantage with rear facing track ends is that you can
have the
tire nearly touching the seat tube and still be able to
get the wheel
off without having to deflate it. That's because you don't
need space
with track ends to pull the wheel forward so the axle
clears the
slot. You do with forward facing dropouts.

Forward facing dropouts give you a good place to hang your
derailleur.

There is no real reason 'track' fork ends can't have a
derailleur, they just don't. The advantages of each style
are well known, but basically single/fixes/hubs like a track
end for 'easy' chain adjustment, every body else would use
forward facing or vertical for ease of getting the rear
wheel off/on. In my case, I use a vertical, with one of
these, albeit generic,

https://surlybikes.com/parts/drivetrain/singleator

Which works very well imho, giving me the perceived
advantages of a hub drive, without the hassle of chain
tensioning or the fudge or a short reach derailleur. Yes
Andre, I know, I can live with it.

See also

https://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/Drop..._101_3354.html


see also :
http://www.yellowjersey.org/RIVTRACK.JPG

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

rear-facing dropouts
 

On Thursday, October 25, 2018 at 11:59:37 AM UTC+1, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, October 25, 2018 at 3:37:48 AM UTC-4, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:

whereas with forward facing slots you need
a second person to hold the wheel in the slot
while you turn the spanner.

Easier to turn the bike upside down and let the
axis fall into the dropout with the chain on.

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Yet MILLIONS of people who own bicycles with forward facing dropouts and nutted rear axles manage to replace a rear wheel all by themselves often at the side of the road and without having to turn the bicycle upside down either.

Cheers

Congratulations to you and to them, Ridealot. You've all failed Ergonomics 101.

Andre Jute
"Best I can do, guv," isn't good enough

rear-facing dropouts
 

On Thursday, October 25, 2018 at 6:16:32 AM UTC+1, Tosspot wrote:

https://surlybikes.com/parts/drivetrain/singleator

Which works very well imho, giving me the perceived advantages of a hub
drive, without the hassle of chain tensioning or the fudge or a short
reach derailleur. Yes Andre, I know, I can live with it.

I saw that, Frank; it's not a crime to insist on beautiful bicycle components. Actually I'm an admirer of Surly. Always use their stainless steel chainrings when I can.

Andre Jute
Karate Monkey

rear-facing dropouts
 

On Wed, 24 Oct 2018 08:05:34 -0500,
AMuzi wrote:
On 10/24/2018 5:59 AM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Today there was a gorgeous open-frame steel bike from the 60s
or 70s

Sounds lovely.


The only wrench in the machinery is that it has rear-facing
dropouts, and the o-bolts to grab the rear wheel axle to
tighten the chain were missing. If it ever had any! Or were
they always there on such bikes?

I think such, now exotic spare parts can be difficult to
find... Can you get away without them?

Chain tensioners are handy on roadsters to get the wheel
centered what with full mudguards, chain case, stirrup brake
and so on before tightening the axle nuts. They are not
necessary by any means and in fact the #1 problem with them is
riders setting chain tension too high which causes excessive
chain and bearing wear.

A QR holds as tight or tighter than axle nuts but either are
adequate especially on single speed where the gearing is not as
low as touring setups. Racing rules for track prohibit QR. That
and tradition are why real track bikes use solid axles. (My own
fixie is QR, never posed any problem whatsoever))

Mine too, also with zero problems.

--
Ted Heise West Lafayette, IN, USA

rear-facing dropouts
 

On 10/25/18 3:46 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Thursday, October 25, 2018 at 6:16:32 AM UTC+1, Tosspot wrote:

https://surlybikes.com/parts/drivetrain/singleator

Which works very well imho, giving me the perceived advantages of a
hub drive, without the hassle of chain tensioning or the fudge or a
short reach derailleur. Yes Andre, I know, I can live with it.

I saw that, Frank; it's not a crime to insist on beautiful bicycle
components. Actually I'm an admirer of Surly. Always use their
stainless steel chainrings when I can.

I was converted to them around 7 years ago, they work well and in a
hub/fixed/single environment work well. The current commuter is going
in to it's third winter on this drive-train which was unheard of in my
derailleur days. I think it's a KMC Z510HX. No complaints at all

rear-facing dropouts
 

On Friday, October 26, 2018 at 6:18:14 AM UTC+1, Tosspot wrote:
On 10/25/18 3:46 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Thursday, October 25, 2018 at 6:16:32 AM UTC+1, Tosspot wrote:

https://surlybikes.com/parts/drivetrain/singleator

Which works very well imho, giving me the perceived advantages of a
hub drive, without the hassle of chain tensioning or the fudge or a
short reach derailleur. Yes Andre, I know, I can live with it.

I saw that, Frank; it's not a crime to insist on beautiful bicycle
components. Actually I'm an admirer of Surly. Always use their
stainless steel chainrings when I can.

I was converted to them around 7 years ago, they work well and in a
hub/fixed/single environment work well. The current commuter is going
in to it's third winter on this drive-train which was unheard of in my
derailleur days. I think it's a KMC Z510HX. No complaints at all

KMC chains are another fave of mine, especially the KMC X8, which I buy in bulk at CRC sales and give away to pedal pals. Back in my Shimano Nexus gruppo days I used to consider myself lucky if I got a thousand miles out of an entire transmission chain of crankset/chainring, chain and sprocket, and considered people who bragged that they got 10K out of a chain as liars. Since I switched to Rohloff sprockets, Surly Stainless chainrings and KMC chains I get three thousand miles out of the chain and already over 6K out of the chainring and sprocket, both unmarked.

I'll tell you something else that has been utterly surprising: I used to get a thousand miles max out of a set of tyres (the usual crap my LBS stocked, including some surprisingly reputable names) until I switched to Schwalbe's Big Apples: I've swapped out a pair at over 5K that still had tread on the front. Schwalbe says you can run them until the protection band appears through he rubber but I swapped that pair out earlier because after years flat-free, suddenly I had two flats in a few months, the second one a violent header on a downhill with three cars close behind me; they all stopped in time and all three drivers came to offer assistance. Since I run the tyres at low pressure and typically do not swerve for potholes and often jump onto kerbs, both flats were caused by fishbites, which led me to look into other fat tyres but there's nothing quite like the Big Apple for comfort and, surprisingly, speed and control at speed, so I just fitted the same again.

Andre Jute
May all the cycling gods bless the nostalgia that brough back the balloon tyre

rear-facing dropouts
 

Andre Jute wrote:

which led me to look into other fat tyres but
there's nothing quite like the Big Apple for
comfort and, surprisingly, speed and control
at speed, so I just fitted the same again.

There seems to be Big Apples in different
sizes... [1]

I have Maxxis Ikon 57-622 (or 29x2.20") and the
comfort and speed is amazing. Now that MTBs are
so fast I think the common guy should get
a MTB, rather than a road bike, if [s]he is
only getting one bike. It is more adventurous,
much better suited as a utility, and also more
creative, as you can put on lots of extra stuff
without having to really worry about making the
bike too heavy. It is more versatile, and fun.
Expensive road bikes will be for the cycling
elite is my prediction, that is with the whole
lycra and helmet gear, cycling almost
exclusively for the sake of cycling...

[1] https://www.schwalbe.com/en/tour-reader/big-apple.html

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

rear-facing dropouts
 

On Friday, October 26, 2018 at 4:03:53 PM UTC+1, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:

which led me to look into other fat tyres but
there's nothing quite like the Big Apple for
comfort and, surprisingly, speed and control
at speed, so I just fitted the same again.

There seems to be Big Apples in different
sizes... [1]

Yes. Most of my bikes are Dutch commuter types with some kind extra edge, called "vakansiefietse", luxurious holiday bikes. But one is a very well developed modern copy of the 1936 Locomotive Unisex Crossframe Deluxe, which was kept in production by Gazelle until 1963 as the "priester rijwiel" (priest's bicycle, for priests who typically wore long coats with a division front and rear so they could ride a bicycle). The development by Utopia of Germany with the Dutch firm Van Raam as their technical partner was intended to turn it into the world's most capable loaded tourer, in which they succeeded. But the price of the bike, and its features, were such that solid citizens bought it as an everyday bike, a utility bike, a bike to speed down Alpine passes with confidence, a shopping bike. The keys are that the redevelopment centred around the biggest Big Apple, 60x622, for which the bike was designed from the ground up, and the very stiff three-dimensional cross frame it inherited from the Locomotief bestseller for which the tubes and lugs for the modernized version were specially developed and drawn by Columbus of Italy whose main business is chasses for Ferrari. The result is an awesomely competent bike. Mine has coachlines painted by Meister Kluwer in his 89th year; he worked with the designer of the Locomotive Unisex Crossframe Deluxe in 1935 and the next year when the bike was put into series production worked on the line; Volkswagen a couple of years ago made a big search for the best European craftsman, and chose Meister Kluwer.

The late Herr Kalkhoff of Hannover, who put the Pedersen back into modern production, used to say that the 50mm Big Apple is almost as good as the 60mm, but the last photo of him I saw showed that he took the mudguards off his personal Pedersen to be able to fit 60mm Big Apples.

I have Maxxis Ikon 57-622 (or 29x2.20") and the
comfort and speed is amazing. Now that MTBs are
so fast I think the common guy should get
a MTB, rather than a road bike, if [s]he is
only getting one bike. It is more adventurous,
much better suited as a utility, and also more
creative, as you can put on lots of extra stuff
without having to really worry about making the
bike too heavy. It is more versatile, and fun.
Expensive road bikes will be for the cycling
elite is my prediction, that is with the whole
lycra and helmet gear, cycling almost
exclusively for the sake of cycling...

That's already the case in nations in Europe where cycling is the norm rather than the exception. All my Dutch commuter bikes have frames that can double as mountain bikes, and I go offroad on them when they're fitted with Schwalbe's Marathon Plus tyres, and my Trek Smover (from the Benelux Trek Design Office, not the American one) with electronic automatic gears and active suspension, designed as an ultra-luxe tourer for the finicky Dutch, is built on a frame that also did duty under their more expensive mountain bikes; it works well.

I don't have any lycra; I have rippling muscles instead, and in summer I tie a silk shirt made without any buttons under my navel. Generally speaking, I just cycle in what I'm wearing, which could be khakis or a pinstripe suit or an artist's leather smock which is great when it is cold and the wind hunches the lycra fashion queens over on their bikes with pained expressions on their faces. I developed my bike thoroughly for minimum service and zero cleaning, so it doesn't matter what I wear as it won't get dirty.

But I wear a helmet on all rides, first of all because the visor has saved my face on several occasions (I had plastic surgery in Switzerland after a motor racing incident many years ago in which I was burned, and I'm not planning on having any more), and secondly because I'm so fair-skinned that without a hat of some kind I burn even in the mild sun of Ireland; oddly enough, the easiest hat to control on a bicycle is a cycling helmet.

Andre Jute
Can't stand the clowns who think it essential for a cyclist to suffer, and to show he's suffering