Spoke Over-Tension and Drifting Wheel Alignment
Last December I commuted 30 miles a day on an old Specialized Allez Sport
that increasingly suffered from cracked chain stays. As the bike fell apart, the cheap generic spokes broke frequently and the RX-100 components had degraded to near uselessness.With patience and greasy hands at the curbside, I was able to keep up with replacing the breaking spokes for several weeks, but with each broken spoke I got a close-up reality check on how fast the chain stays were giving way. Despite my crunch budget as a student, the specter of catastrophic frame failure was not only enough for me to keep my speed below 20 mph, but also to fork over $1500 at the LBS for a new bike. I depend upon the bike for transportation, and so this was the way to go. In January, I decided to buy a Redline Disc-R (disc-brake road bike) to replace my commuter/road bike and I walked into a LBS that was supposed to be receiving one in my size, and I told the staff I was there to buy. The shop promptly required a down payment, but I got a call later in the week and was told the bike was in the shop, assembled, tuned, and ready to roll. I showed up, saw the bike, and paid the balance. The sales person insisted on wheeling the bike back to the mechanics' shop for a "final check to be sure everything is adjusted right." Seconds later, the sales person rolled the bike back out to me on the showroom floor and announced the bike was all ready to go! I took the bike home, and the next day I returned the wheels to the LBS to have them re-tensioned because they were grossly out of true. Although with disc brakes the bike could function despite the wheel wobble, I was afraid that if I rode the wheels in that condition it would ruin them. The rear wheel actually had a 1/4" wobble. The mechanic was friendly, but dismissed the wheel wobble problem as a minor one. In a couple minutes, he made spoke adjustments that significantly reduced the wheel wobble, and he explained it was not necessary to re-tension the wheels because all the spokes were at a similar amount of tension. Four months later, while I sat on a park bench next to the bike, I heard a spoke snap. It seemed really strange for a spoke to break when the bike wasn't being ridden, but I recalled having just gone over a series of stutter bumps and I attributed thermal expansion of the rim to be the final straw since it was the first hot sunny day of the season. At the same time, the wheels had never been subjected to any hard collisions with curbs or potholes or anything like that, so I was concerned by the implications of this spontaneous failure. Coincidentally, I was only two blocks away from the shop where I purchased the bike. After buying the bike, in aversion to the original bright red finish and the many "steal-me" decals, I repainted the frame. When I wheeled it into the shop, nobody realized it was originally purchased there only a few months earlier. The shop's mechanic explained the spoke snapped because the spokes were badly tensioned and of cheap generic quality. The shop had no replacement spokes of correct length, and therefore sent me to a sister shop located several blocks away. At the sister shop, I got the same explanation: 'Bad work, bad parts.' The next day, I took the wheel to a different shop and learned the spokes are of brand quality (Sapim) but that they were all extremely over tightened. The mechanic at this shop expressed amazement that the wheel was surviving the high tension of the spokes. I asked him to re-tension the wheel, but the mechanic refused, saying the wheel was ruined and all he could do was replace the spoke and make some adjustments to minimize the hop caused by the wheel damage and help me get a few more miles before having to replace the wheel. I had truthfully told the mechanic that I'd never taken a spoke wrench to the wheel, nor hit anything with it, but the mechanic doubted my veracity. He insisted I must have hit something really hard with the wheel and then tried to fix it myself and caused further damage. Then he asked if I'd gotten the bike serviced since I bought it. I told him the truth and he decided that the spokes were too tight because I had not taken the bike in for a complete tune up after the first few hundred miles. I admit I privately disbelieved the statement that the spokes could have spontaneously self-tightened to the point of extreme tension, but the mechanic did provide convincing information that lead me to the following conclusions: One, the wheel had been poorly built because the spokes were way too tight. Two, this condition of excessive tension caused damage and resulted in reduced life expectancy for the wheel. Three, I'd likely have to replace the rim and spokes soon. As it has turned out, no more spokes have broken on this wheel in the 2,000 miles covered since the spontaneous spoke failure. Not all is hunky dory, however. Over time, it appears that the rim is actually drifting to the left, affecting the wheel alignment in the frame. When the bike was new, I observed the wheel was centered in the frame stays. Now, the bike has started to track a little bit to the right. Any ride of over 50 miles now causes a bit of pain on left side of my groin, as if I were sitting off-center over the nose of the saddle, and the bike no longer has the no-hands stability that is used to have. When I dismount and take a closer look, I can see things that don't add up right. The tire is visibly offset in the chain stays by an 1/8 of an inch; that is, the gap between the rim and the chain stay on the right is 1/4" greater than the gap on the left! At first, I was afraid the misalignment was a frame problem, but string-line measurements indicate the frame is actually pretty straight. Next, I was worried about the dropouts, and wondered if they are tweaked-out somehow. So I borrowed and installed a new wheel, just to see how the alignment looks with that, and observe no indications of alignment problems with the new wheel installed. Now, here is my theory: The spokes on the cassette side are the tightest, of course, since they are shorter to accommodate the dish of the wheel. In the alleged over-tensioned state, these spokes are stretching under the cyclic stressing of normal use. As the right-side spokes now yield to the excessive tension, the left-side spokes apparently are contracting as the yielding spokes effectively grow longer. The change in effective spoke length is enough to shift the rim to the left 1/8" and this is why the wheel is now 1/4" closer to the left chain stay, compared to its distance from the right chain stay. When I ride the bike, this offset of the rear wheel requires compensation by the direction of the front wheel or by the camber of tires exerted by leaning the bicycle slightly to the left. As such, the bike is generally tilted to the side and therefore I really do sit with extra pressure on the left side of my groin and the bike really is no longer as balanced and stable when underway. Comments? Recommendations? mykal in Seattle |
mCrux Wrote: Last December I commuted 30 miles a day on an old Specialized Alle Sport that increasingly suffered from cracked chain stays. As the bike fel apart, the cheap generic spokes broke frequently and the RX-100 component had degraded to near uselessness.With patience and greasy hands at th curbside, I was able to keep up with replacing the breaking spokes for severa weeks, but with each broken spoke I got a close-up reality check on how fas the chain stays were giving way. Despite my crunch budget as a student the specter of catastrophic frame failure was not only enough for me t keep my speed below 20 mph, but also to fork over $1500 at the LBS for a ne bike. I depend upon the bike for transportation, and so this was the way t go. In January, I decided to buy a Redline Disc-R (disc-brake road bike to replace my commuter/road bike and I walked into a LBS that was suppose to be receiving one in my size, and I told the staff I was there to buy The shop promptly required a down payment, but I got a call later in th week and was told the bike was in the shop, assembled, tuned, and ready t roll. I showed up, saw the bike, and paid the balance. The sales perso insisted on wheeling the bike back to the mechanics' shop for a "final check t be sure everything is adjusted right." Seconds later, the sales perso rolled the bike back out to me on the showroom floor and announced the bik was all ready to go! I took the bike home, and the next day I returned the wheels to the LB to have them re-tensioned because they were grossly out of true. Althoug with disc brakes the bike could function despite the wheel wobble, I wa afraid that if I rode the wheels in that condition it would ruin them. Th rear wheel actually had a 1/4" wobble. The mechanic was friendly, bu dismissed the wheel wobble problem as a minor one. In a couple minutes, he mad spoke adjustments that significantly reduced the wheel wobble, and h explained it was not necessary to re-tension the wheels because all the spokes wer at a similar amount of tension. Four months later, while I sat on a park bench next to the bike, heard a spoke snap. It seemed really strange for a spoke to break when th bike wasn't being ridden, but I recalled having just gone over a series of stutter bumps and I attributed thermal expansion of the rim to be th final straw since it was the first hot sunny day of the season. At the sam time, the wheels had never been subjected to any hard collisions with curb or potholes or anything like that, so I was concerned by the implication of this spontaneous failure. Coincidentally, I was only two blocks awa from the shop where I purchased the bike. After buying the bike, in aversion to the original bright red finis and the many "steal-me" decals, I repainted the frame. When I wheeled it int the shop, nobody realized it was originally purchased there only a fe months earlier. The shop's mechanic explained the spoke snapped because th spokes were badly tensioned and of cheap generic quality. The shop had no replacement spokes of correct length, and therefore sent me to a siste shop located several blocks away. At the sister shop, I got the sam explanation: 'Bad work, bad parts.' The next day, I took the wheel to a different shop and learned th spokes are of brand quality (Sapim) but that they were all extremely over tightened. The mechanic at this shop expressed amazement that the whee was surviving the high tension of the spokes. I asked him to re-tensio the wheel, but the mechanic refused, saying the wheel was ruined and al he could do was replace the spoke and make some adjustments to minimiz the hop caused by the wheel damage and help me get a few more miles befor having to replace the wheel. I had truthfully told the mechanic that I'd never taken a spoke wrenc to the wheel, nor hit anything with it, but the mechanic doubted my veracity. He insisted I must have hit something really hard with the wheel and then tried to fix it myself and caused further damage. Then he asked if I'd gotten the bike serviced since I bought it. I told him the truth and he decided that the spokes were too tight because I had not taken the bike in for a complete tune up after the first few hundred miles. I admit I privately disbelieved the statement that the spokes could have spontaneously self-tightened to the point of extreme tension, but the mechanic did provide convincing information that lead me to the following conclusions: One, the wheel had been poorly built because the spokes were way too tight. Two, this condition of excessive tension caused damage and resulted in reduced life expectancy for the wheel. Three, I'd likely have to replace the rim and spokes soon. As it has turned out, no more spokes have broken on this wheel in the 2,000 miles covered since the spontaneous spoke failure. Not all is hunky dory, however. Over time, it appears that the rim is actually drifting to the left, affecting the wheel alignment in the frame. When the bike was new, I observed the wheel was centered in the frame stays. Now, the bike has started to track a little bit to the right. Any ride of over 50 miles now causes a bit of pain on left side of my groin, as if I were sitting off-center over the nose of the saddle, and the bike no longer has the no-hands stability that is used to have. When I dismount and take a closer look, I can see things that don't add up right. The tire is visibly offset in the chain stays by an 1/8 of an inch; that is, the gap between the rim and the chain stay on the right is 1/4" greater than the gap on the left! At first, I was afraid the misalignment was a frame problem, but string-line measurements indicate the frame is actually pretty straight. Next, I was worried about the dropouts, and wondered if they are tweaked-out somehow. So I borrowed and installed a new wheel, just to see how the alignment looks with that, and observe no indications of alignment problems with the new wheel installed. Now, here is my theory: The spokes on the cassette side are the tightest, of course, since they are shorter to accommodate the dish of the wheel. In the alleged over-tensioned state, these spokes are stretching under the cyclic stressing of normal use. As the right-side spokes now yield to the excessive tension, the left-side spokes apparently are contracting as the yielding spokes effectively grow longer. The change in effective spoke length is enough to shift the rim to the left 1/8" and this is why the wheel is now 1/4" closer to the left chain stay, compared to its distance from the right chain stay. When I ride the bike, this offset of the rear wheel requires compensation by the direction of the front wheel or by the camber of tires exerted by leaning the bicycle slightly to the left. As such, the bike is generally tilted to the side and therefore I really do sit with extra pressure on the left side of my groin and the bike really is no longer as balanced and stable when underway. Comments? Recommendations? mykal in Seattle Take the wheel to a wheel builder that is trustworthy. Ask for a little instruction as well as the required adjustment(s). The instruction should include: 1. his or her use of a centering tool or at least a truing stand the is stable. You can see the same thing in your frame by flipping the wheel over and looking at the centering. 2. A spoke tension gague on each spoke and write down the readings and what they convert to based on your spokes 3. A lesson in how to tension relieve. You can learn all this on your own by reading "the Bicycle Wheel" by Jobst Brandt. Most library systems have the book and you can by it through most bicycle shops. -- daveornee |
My advice is similar to daveornee's; take the wheel to a competent
wheel builder or follow the recipe in any number of the books on the subject; retension, redish and stress-relieve the wheel yourself. That 1/4" difference indicates that the wheel is mis-dished by about 3mm, which is just enough, in my experience, to make a road bike misbehave in the manner you describe. I doubt that the wheel is beyond saving. -- Typoes are a feature, not a bug. Some gardening required to reply via email. Words processed in a facility that contains nuts. |
mCrux wrote in message ... Last December I commuted 30 miles a day on an old Specialized Allez Sport that increasingly suffered from cracked chain stays. As the bike fell apart, the cheap generic spokes broke frequently and the RX-100 components had degraded to near uselessness.With patience and greasy hands at the curbside, I was able to keep up with replacing the breaking spokes for several weeks, but with each broken spoke I got a close-up reality check on how fast the chain stays were giving way. Despite my crunch budget as a student, the specter of catastrophic frame failure was not only enough for me to keep my speed below 20 mph, but also to fork over $1500 at the LBS for a new bike. I depend upon the bike for transportation, and so this was the way to go. In January, I decided to buy a Redline Disc-R (disc-brake road bike) to replace my commuter/road bike and I walked into a LBS that was supposed to be receiving one in my size, and I told the staff I was there to buy. The shop promptly required a down payment, but I got a call later in the week and was told the bike was in the shop, assembled, tuned, and ready to roll. I showed up, saw the bike, and paid the balance. The sales person insisted on wheeling the bike back to the mechanics' shop for a "final check to be sure everything is adjusted right." Seconds later, the sales person rolled the bike back out to me on the showroom floor and announced the bike was all ready to go! I took the bike home, and the next day I returned the wheels to the LBS to have them re-tensioned because they were grossly out of true. Although with disc brakes the bike could function despite the wheel wobble, I was afraid that if I rode the wheels in that condition it would ruin them. The rear wheel actually had a 1/4" wobble. The mechanic was friendly, but dismissed the wheel wobble problem as a minor one. In a couple minutes, he made spoke adjustments that significantly reduced the wheel wobble, and he explained it was not necessary to re-tension the wheels because all the spokes were at a similar amount of tension. Four months later, while I sat on a park bench next to the bike, I heard a spoke snap. It seemed really strange for a spoke to break when the bike wasn't being ridden, but I recalled having just gone over a series of stutter bumps and I attributed thermal expansion of the rim to be the final straw since it was the first hot sunny day of the season. At the same time, the wheels had never been subjected to any hard collisions with curbs or potholes or anything like that, so I was concerned by the implications of this spontaneous failure. Coincidentally, I was only two blocks away from the shop where I purchased the bike. After buying the bike, in aversion to the original bright red finish and the many "steal-me" decals, I repainted the frame. When I wheeled it into the shop, nobody realized it was originally purchased there only a few months earlier. The shop's mechanic explained the spoke snapped because the spokes were badly tensioned and of cheap generic quality. The shop had no replacement spokes of correct length, and therefore sent me to a sister shop located several blocks away. At the sister shop, I got the same explanation: 'Bad work, bad parts.' The next day, I took the wheel to a different shop and learned the spokes are of brand quality (Sapim) but that they were all extremely over tightened. The mechanic at this shop expressed amazement that the wheel was surviving the high tension of the spokes. I asked him to re-tension the wheel, but the mechanic refused, saying the wheel was ruined and all he could do was replace the spoke and make some adjustments to minimize the hop caused by the wheel damage and help me get a few more miles before having to replace the wheel. I had truthfully told the mechanic that I'd never taken a spoke wrench to the wheel, nor hit anything with it, but the mechanic doubted my veracity. He insisted I must have hit something really hard with the wheel and then tried to fix it myself and caused further damage. Then he asked if I'd gotten the bike serviced since I bought it. I told him the truth and he decided that the spokes were too tight because I had not taken the bike in for a complete tune up after the first few hundred miles. I admit I privately disbelieved the statement that the spokes could have spontaneously self-tightened to the point of extreme tension, but the mechanic did provide convincing information that lead me to the following conclusions: One, the wheel had been poorly built because the spokes were way too tight. Two, this condition of excessive tension caused damage and resulted in reduced life expectancy for the wheel. Three, I'd likely have to replace the rim and spokes soon. As it has turned out, no more spokes have broken on this wheel in the 2,000 miles covered since the spontaneous spoke failure. Not all is hunky dory, however. Over time, it appears that the rim is actually drifting to the left, affecting the wheel alignment in the frame. When the bike was new, I observed the wheel was centered in the frame stays. Now, the bike has started to track a little bit to the right. Any ride of over 50 miles now causes a bit of pain on left side of my groin, as if I were sitting off-center over the nose of the saddle, and the bike no longer has the no-hands stability that is used to have. When I dismount and take a closer look, I can see things that don't add up right. The tire is visibly offset in the chain stays by an 1/8 of an inch; that is, the gap between the rim and the chain stay on the right is 1/4" greater than the gap on the left! At first, I was afraid the misalignment was a frame problem, but string-line measurements indicate the frame is actually pretty straight. Next, I was worried about the dropouts, and wondered if they are tweaked-out somehow. So I borrowed and installed a new wheel, just to see how the alignment looks with that, and observe no indications of alignment problems with the new wheel installed. Now, here is my theory: The spokes on the cassette side are the tightest, of course, since they are shorter to accommodate the dish of the wheel. In the alleged over-tensioned state, these spokes are stretching under the cyclic stressing of normal use. As the right-side spokes now yield to the excessive tension, the left-side spokes apparently are contracting as the yielding spokes effectively grow longer. The change in effective spoke length is enough to shift the rim to the left 1/8" and this is why the wheel is now 1/4" closer to the left chain stay, compared to its distance from the right chain stay. When I ride the bike, this offset of the rear wheel requires compensation by the direction of the front wheel or by the camber of tires exerted by leaning the bicycle slightly to the left. As such, the bike is generally tilted to the side and therefore I really do sit with extra pressure on the left side of my groin and the bike really is no longer as balanced and stable when underway. Lateral rim movement on a rear wheel is most easily affected by changes in the left spokes, not the right. (unless rim centred between hubshell.) 1/8" is not a great deviation, so I doubt this is the root of your comfort problem. Correct lateral deviation by relaxing left spoke nipples by 1/8 turn. Trevor |
mCrux wrote:
... The next day, I took the wheel to a different shop and learned the spokes are of brand quality (Sapim) but that they were all extremely over tightened. The mechanic at this shop expressed amazement that the wheel was surviving the high tension of the spokes.... Was the mechanic drinking Jim Beam? ;) -- Tom Sherman |
dave-includes all the post. mCrux Wrote:
Last December I commuted 30 miles a day on an old Specialized Allez Sport that increasingly suffered from cracked chain stays. As the bike fell apart, the cheap generic spokes broke frequently and the RX-100 components had degraded to near uselessness.With patience and greasy hands at the curbside, I was able to keep up with replacing the breaking spokes for several weeks, but with each broken spoke I got a close-up reality check on how fast the chain stays were giving way. Despite my crunch budget as a student, the specter of catastrophic frame failure was not only enough for me to keep my speed below 20 mph, but also to fork over $1500 at the LBS for a new bike. I depend upon the bike for transportation, BRBR ETC-ya know Dave, i like to read your posts but GEEZZZZZ, do ya need to include all the asker's post?? Snippage!!! Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302 (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene" |
SNIP3. A lesson in how to tension relieve. I meant lesson on how to stress relieve. "the Bicycle Wheel" by Jobst Brandt has this information and some of i at: http://yarchive.net/bike/stress_relieve.html I still think reading/owning the book is the best way. It is a goo reference. Sorry, Peter, I forgot to snip in my previous posting. You forgot t correct my error in Stress Vs. Tension relieve.. -- daveornee |
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