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-   -   Dry lube? (http://www.cyclebanter.com/showthread.php?t=255762)

SMS April 28th 18 06:19 PM

Dry lube?
 
On 4/28/2018 1:30 AM, wrote:

Stop, stop it is getting into a religion discussion already.


Can't stop. Can't stop. Worried that someone on the Internet will
believe Frank, as unlikely as that might seem to most people here.

Hmm, who do you want to believe long-time bicycle shop owners & expert
bicycle mechanics, chain experts, and Jobst, or Frank? Tough decision--not.

What the Experts say About Chain Waxing:

"When wax was popular, we'd get customers coming in all the time
complaining about shifting problems on their bikes. Removed the wax and
lubed with conventional stuff and voila, shifting back to normal." Mike
Jacoubowsky, co-owner of Chain Reaction Bicycles.

"Wax is not mobile and cannot return to a location from which it has
been removed by rotation of one part on another." Jobst Brandt, author
of The Bicycle Wheel

"If you use dry lube or wax, follow product directions and use it often.
In some cases, dry lube should be used for every ride. It wears off very
quickly and no new lube can flow to the critical wear areas." Craig
Metalcraft, manufacturer of Super Link III.

"Downsides of the wax approach include the fact that it is a great deal
of trouble, and that wax is probably not as good a lubricant as oil or
grease." Sheldon Brown

For a good chain lube, that penetrates into the chain use PJ1.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00AAGEF96
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000UKH86Y
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000GV978Y

"Features a foaming action that penetrates into the pins and rollers
Specially optimized for a standard non-O-ring chains"

Jeff Liebermann April 28th 18 08:46 PM

Dry lube?
 
On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 10:19:23 -0700, sms
wrote:

For a good chain lube, that penetrates into the chain use PJ1.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00AAGEF96
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000UKH86Y
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000GV978Y

"Features a foaming action that penetrates into the pins and rollers
Specially optimized for a standard non-O-ring chains"


You can't be serious. The pins and rollers are made from steel. I
don't see how PJ1 can penetrate solid steel unless you also prefer to
ride on sintered steel or steel sponge (if there is such a thing).

The promo page (first URL above) also says:
"After penetrating the inside of the chain, the lube
becomes a sticky lubricant that bounces back or has a
"memory" effect that withstands the continual mechanical
stress of the chain."
Oil is incompressible and does not bounce. If you want a good
simulation of how bouncy oil works, fill the brake lines of your car
with air bubbles and try using the brakes.

Kinda looks like the stuff was made for motorcycles, not bicycles:
"Specially optimized for a standard non-O-ring chains, yet
is O-Ring safe and compatible with either type of motorcycle chain."

This one is great:
"New super tacky formulation reduces dirty fly-off, displaces
and repels water, protects against rust and corrosion,
extending sprocket and chain life."
In other words, it's super sticky and both collects and attracts dirt.

In my never humble opinion, the product might be good for motorcycle
chain, but is probably the same as chainsaw bar oil for bicycles.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Mark J. April 29th 18 12:58 AM

Dry lube?
 
On 4/28/2018 10:19 AM, sms wrote:
On 4/28/2018 1:30 AM, wrote:

Stop, stop it is getting into a religion discussion already.


Can't stop. Can't stop. Worried that someone on the Internet will
believe Frank, as unlikely as that might seem to most people here.


The priorities of folks on usenet. Sheesh.

-Mark J.

Andre Jute[_2_] April 29th 18 01:20 AM

Dry lube?
 
On Saturday, April 28, 2018 at 5:45:46 PM UTC+1, Ralph Barone wrote:
wrote:
On Saturday, April 28, 2018 at 5:25:55 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/27/2018 6:29 PM, sms wrote:


Hot wax at least can get inside the rollers and sleeves, but once it
cools and hardens it is quickly displaced. That's why all the experts
advise against hot wax. It causes all sorts of problems.

sigh Mr. Scharf AKA "sms" never tires of spreading misinformation.

See
https://www.bikeradar.com/us/road/ne...formula-36424/

http://www.velonews.com/2013/03/bike...ith-wax_279148

There are other sources I could quote or link. But anyone new to this
group should understand, Scharf's definition of "expert" is: "someone
who happens to agree with Scharf."


--
- Frank Krygowski


Stop, stop it is getting into a religion discussion already.

Lou


Oh yeah?! Well my God's chain lasts longer than your God's chain.


Heretic!

John B.[_3_] April 29th 18 02:34 AM

Dry lube?
 
On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 10:19:23 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 4/28/2018 1:30 AM, wrote:

Stop, stop it is getting into a religion discussion already.


Can't stop. Can't stop. Worried that someone on the Internet will
believe Frank, as unlikely as that might seem to most people here.

Hmm, who do you want to believe long-time bicycle shop owners & expert
bicycle mechanics, chain experts, and Jobst, or Frank? Tough decision--not.

What the Experts say About Chain Waxing:

"When wax was popular, we'd get customers coming in all the time
complaining about shifting problems on their bikes. Removed the wax and
lubed with conventional stuff and voila, shifting back to normal." Mike
Jacoubowsky, co-owner of Chain Reaction Bicycles.

"Wax is not mobile and cannot return to a location from which it has
been removed by rotation of one part on another." Jobst Brandt, author
of The Bicycle Wheel

"If you use dry lube or wax, follow product directions and use it often.
In some cases, dry lube should be used for every ride. It wears off very
quickly and no new lube can flow to the critical wear areas." Craig
Metalcraft, manufacturer of Super Link III.

"Downsides of the wax approach include the fact that it is a great deal
of trouble, and that wax is probably not as good a lubricant as oil or
grease." Sheldon Brown

For a good chain lube, that penetrates into the chain use PJ1.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00AAGEF96
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000UKH86Y
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000GV978Y

"Features a foaming action that penetrates into the pins and rollers
Specially optimized for a standard non-O-ring chains"


Very obviously you seem to have ignored
https://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/...formula-36424/
Which describes the formulation of the chain lube that resulted in the
lowest friction losses of all chain lubes tested for an article in
BikeRadar.

Or maybe https://www.friction-facts.com/#simple-forum-post-55
which gives some indication of what the industry thinks of Jason Smith
the owner of Friction Facts.

"Thanks to Friction Facts, we now have some better data to help us
make an informed decision." -Cycling News

"Jason is closer to solving the black art of drivetrain friction
reduction than anybody" -Slowtwitch

"The data is there, and it is compelling." -Lava Magazine

But of course as Jason seems to have by actual testing disagreed with
all of your "experts" I'm sure that you will ignore his findings. But
Ayn Rand once said: "We can ignore reality, but we cannot ignore the
consequences of ignoring reality."
--
Cheers,

John B.


[email protected] April 29th 18 06:21 AM

Dry lube?
 
On Saturday, April 28, 2018 at 7:19:26 PM UTC+2, sms wrote:
On 4/28/2018 1:30 AM, wrote:

Stop, stop it is getting into a religion discussion already.


Can't stop. Can't stop. Worried that someone on the Internet will
believe Frank, as unlikely as that might seem to most people here.

Hmm, who do you want to believe long-time bicycle shop owners & expert
bicycle mechanics, chain experts, and Jobst, or Frank? Tough decision--not.

What the Experts say About Chain Waxing:

"When wax was popular, we'd get customers coming in all the time
complaining about shifting problems on their bikes. Removed the wax and
lubed with conventional stuff and voila, shifting back to normal." Mike
Jacoubowsky, co-owner of Chain Reaction Bicycles.

"Wax is not mobile and cannot return to a location from which it has
been removed by rotation of one part on another." Jobst Brandt, author
of The Bicycle Wheel

"If you use dry lube or wax, follow product directions and use it often.
In some cases, dry lube should be used for every ride. It wears off very
quickly and no new lube can flow to the critical wear areas." Craig
Metalcraft, manufacturer of Super Link III.

"Downsides of the wax approach include the fact that it is a great deal
of trouble, and that wax is probably not as good a lubricant as oil or
grease." Sheldon Brown

For a good chain lube, that penetrates into the chain use PJ1.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00AAGEF96
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000UKH86Y
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000GV978Y

"Features a foaming action that penetrates into the pins and rollers
Specially optimized for a standard non-O-ring chains"


For the record: Jobst didn't keep up with latest developments the last 10 years he was around, I disagreed with some of Sheldons statements and Mike had als o some personal preferences and opinions.

Lou

SMS April 29th 18 07:01 AM

Dry lube?
 
On 4/28/2018 12:46 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 10:19:23 -0700, sms
wrote:

For a good chain lube, that penetrates into the chain use PJ1.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00AAGEF96
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000UKH86Y
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000GV978Y

"Features a foaming action that penetrates into the pins and rollers
Specially optimized for a standard non-O-ring chains"


You can't be serious. The pins and rollers are made from steel. I
don't see how PJ1 can penetrate solid steel unless you also prefer to
ride on sintered steel or steel sponge (if there is such a thing).


I don't think that you understand how these foaming chain lubes work.
It's a very thin foaming solvent that penetrates inside the chain,
carrying the lubricant with it. Then the solvent evaporates and the
lubricant is thick enough that it doesn't just leak out.

It's the same way liquid hot wax gets into the chain, but the wax
hardens and is quickly rubbed off. That's why this observation "If you
use dry lube or wax, follow product directions and use it often. In some
cases, dry lube should be used for every ride. It wears off very quickly
and no new lube can flow to the critical wear areas" is especially
relevant. Or as one manufacturer states "As the foam breaks, the
lubricant penetrates into wire rope and roller chain mechanisms,
depositing a molybdenum disulfide based grease to provide superior
lubricating properties to surfaces."

I don't think it should surprise anyone that the best lubricant for a
chain is a lubricant designed for a chain.

John B.[_3_] April 29th 18 09:52 AM

Dry lube?
 
On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 23:01:25 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 4/28/2018 12:46 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 10:19:23 -0700, sms
wrote:

For a good chain lube, that penetrates into the chain use PJ1.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00AAGEF96
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000UKH86Y
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000GV978Y

"Features a foaming action that penetrates into the pins and rollers
Specially optimized for a standard non-O-ring chains"


You can't be serious. The pins and rollers are made from steel. I
don't see how PJ1 can penetrate solid steel unless you also prefer to
ride on sintered steel or steel sponge (if there is such a thing).


I don't think that you understand how these foaming chain lubes work.
It's a very thin foaming solvent that penetrates inside the chain,
carrying the lubricant with it. Then the solvent evaporates and the
lubricant is thick enough that it doesn't just leak out.

It's the same way liquid hot wax gets into the chain, but the wax
hardens and is quickly rubbed off. That's why this observation "If you
use dry lube or wax, follow product directions and use it often. In some
cases, dry lube should be used for every ride. It wears off very quickly
and no new lube can flow to the critical wear areas" is especially
relevant. Or as one manufacturer states "As the foam breaks, the
lubricant penetrates into wire rope and roller chain mechanisms,
depositing a molybdenum disulfide based grease to provide superior
lubricating properties to surfaces."

I don't think it should surprise anyone that the best lubricant for a
chain is a lubricant designed for a chain.


One can only gaze in wonder at the foaming solvent?

But out of curiosity can you comment on exactly what this foaming
solvent is? Who makes it? Where it can be obtained?

I ask as we were using grease and heavy oils diluted with a volatile
thinner to lube crane lift cables at least 40 years ago and I don't
believe that it was a new process even then, while you appear to be
describing something that is NEW and BETTER, apparently because it
foams?

Another thing that is puzzling is that while you are recommending this
remarkable foaming stuff and don't actually say so your language seems
to hint that without foam it just won't penetrate into the chain links
yet I have worked on chain driven equipment with chains that were ten
or more years old. Still perfectly usable and no foam at all. Just a
SAE 40 oil bath.

So the question is, is foam really necessary?


By the way, here is a company that makes wax lubrication for
industrial use as a chain lubricant.
https://www.klueber.com/en/lubricant...icating-waxes/

In fact they write:

"Dust, dirt and lint influence the function of your chains in the long
run. Our lubricating waxes protect this important component against
contamination and premature wear. They should also be your first
choice for chains in frequent contact with humidity."

"Our lubricating waxes for chains, for example Klüberplus SK 11-299,
are applied via warm immersion baths. Once dried, the lubricant
protects your component for an extended time, sometimes even for the
entire lifetime of the chain."

I find it strange that a company manufactures a wax specifically to
lubricate chains while a group of people, apparently with no
experience in the field are shouting "won't work!"

--
Cheers,

John B.


[email protected] April 29th 18 04:19 PM

Dry lube?
 
On Sunday, April 29, 2018 at 10:52:15 AM UTC+2, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 23:01:25 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 4/28/2018 12:46 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 10:19:23 -0700, sms
wrote:

For a good chain lube, that penetrates into the chain use PJ1.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00AAGEF96
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000UKH86Y
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000GV978Y

"Features a foaming action that penetrates into the pins and rollers
Specially optimized for a standard non-O-ring chains"

You can't be serious. The pins and rollers are made from steel. I
don't see how PJ1 can penetrate solid steel unless you also prefer to
ride on sintered steel or steel sponge (if there is such a thing).


I don't think that you understand how these foaming chain lubes work.
It's a very thin foaming solvent that penetrates inside the chain,
carrying the lubricant with it. Then the solvent evaporates and the
lubricant is thick enough that it doesn't just leak out.

It's the same way liquid hot wax gets into the chain, but the wax
hardens and is quickly rubbed off. That's why this observation "If you
use dry lube or wax, follow product directions and use it often. In some
cases, dry lube should be used for every ride. It wears off very quickly
and no new lube can flow to the critical wear areas" is especially
relevant. Or as one manufacturer states "As the foam breaks, the
lubricant penetrates into wire rope and roller chain mechanisms,
depositing a molybdenum disulfide based grease to provide superior
lubricating properties to surfaces."

I don't think it should surprise anyone that the best lubricant for a
chain is a lubricant designed for a chain.


One can only gaze in wonder at the foaming solvent?

But out of curiosity can you comment on exactly what this foaming
solvent is? Who makes it? Where it can be obtained?

I ask as we were using grease and heavy oils diluted with a volatile
thinner to lube crane lift cables at least 40 years ago and I don't
believe that it was a new process even then, while you appear to be
describing something that is NEW and BETTER, apparently because it
foams?

Another thing that is puzzling is that while you are recommending this
remarkable foaming stuff and don't actually say so your language seems
to hint that without foam it just won't penetrate into the chain links
yet I have worked on chain driven equipment with chains that were ten
or more years old. Still perfectly usable and no foam at all. Just a
SAE 40 oil bath.


It is easy to penetrate a chain. The lube just has to have a low enough viscosity that is all. Thats why wax based lubes have some volatile component. The cheapest is iso propanol. Oil has a low enough viscosity of his own.

So the question is, is foam really necessary?


Of course not.

Lou

SMS April 29th 18 05:24 PM

Dry lube?
 
On 4/28/2018 10:21 PM, wrote:
On Saturday, April 28, 2018 at 7:19:26 PM UTC+2, sms wrote:
On 4/28/2018 1:30 AM,
wrote:

Stop, stop it is getting into a religion discussion already.


Can't stop. Can't stop. Worried that someone on the Internet will
believe Frank, as unlikely as that might seem to most people here.

Hmm, who do you want to believe long-time bicycle shop owners & expert
bicycle mechanics, chain experts, and Jobst, or Frank? Tough decision--not.

What the Experts say About Chain Waxing:

"When wax was popular, we'd get customers coming in all the time
complaining about shifting problems on their bikes. Removed the wax and
lubed with conventional stuff and voila, shifting back to normal." Mike
Jacoubowsky, co-owner of Chain Reaction Bicycles.

"Wax is not mobile and cannot return to a location from which it has
been removed by rotation of one part on another." Jobst Brandt, author
of The Bicycle Wheel

"If you use dry lube or wax, follow product directions and use it often.
In some cases, dry lube should be used for every ride. It wears off very
quickly and no new lube can flow to the critical wear areas." Craig
Metalcraft, manufacturer of Super Link III.

"Downsides of the wax approach include the fact that it is a great deal
of trouble, and that wax is probably not as good a lubricant as oil or
grease." Sheldon Brown

For a good chain lube, that penetrates into the chain use PJ1.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00AAGEF96
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000UKH86Y
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000GV978Y

"Features a foaming action that penetrates into the pins and rollers
Specially optimized for a standard non-O-ring chains"


For the record: Jobst didn't keep up with latest developments the last 10 years he was around, I disagreed with some of Sheldons statements and Mike had als o some personal preferences and opinions.


Mike and Sheldon both worked at bicycle shops (Mike owns a shop) and if
they take the time to explain the issues with hot waxing I think they
are worth listening to. Jobst had a lot of opinions of course, but most
were based on facts and logic, something that trumps the emotional
feeling of hot waxing.

Of course the trend now appears to be to mix hot wax with some sort of
oil. Once the wax hardens and is displaced then at least the oil is
still providing lubrication, but the wax is not, and there's less oil
than if you just used oil alone.

If you eliminate the wax from the mixture of wax and oil then it would
be fine to hot wax. The hot oil is thinner than cold oil and will
penetrate inside before cooling and thickening. Similar to how the
foaming chain lube is thin when it comes out and thickens as the carrier
evaporates.

The two key things in chain lubrication a

1. Ensure that the lubricant doesn't just remain on the surface but
penetrates into the pins and rollers. It needs to be thin to do this.

2. Ensure that the lubricant is not quickly displaced. Solid lubricants
like wax are not suitable unless you could rig something up that keeps
the chain hot and the wax fluid. Maybe this butane torch
https://www.harborfreight.com/butane-micro-torch-63170.html keeping
the chain hot.


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