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EdwardDolan February 26th 14 04:22 AM

The Joys & Pleasures of Cycling on Trails
 
"Blackblade" wrote in message ...

I don't have to refute what you think Ed ... it's just

your opinion. I HAVE refuted most of your propositions ... but you can
continue to think whatever you like.

Your refutations only work if one accepts your ethos, which
civilized hikers reject.


You've not shown that. YOU reject it but you're hardly objective, or that civilised given your penchant for profanity.


What constitutes a superior ethos? Just one thing. The judgment of your superiors. Democracy is for slobs. I use profanity when I am dealing with slobs. After all, it is their language which they understand fully. Why waste civilized discourse on them?

And ? So what ? They are still both

recreations ... deserving of equal treatment and access to public
resources. One is not axiomatically better than the other ...

Not to be able to make meaningful distinctions marks you as an
idiot. You did go to college, did you not?


Ah well, I suppose consistency would be too much to expect. You're usually accusing me of making meaningless distinctions. Your distinction, in this case, is simply that you prefer one recreation over another. You can't objectively assert why this should be the case hence your retreat into emotive language and "it's obvious" type statements.


You want all recreations and recreationalists to be treated equally, This marks you as an idiot. You do indeed make many meaningless distinctions but seem unable to make meaningful distinctions. You need to ask yourself why this is so. If you were college educated, you should be able to make MEANINGFUL distinctions with ease.
[...]

I am for free choice too, accept when it conflicts with
someone else's free choice. When choices conflict, decisions have to be made by
authorities as to whom has priority. It is called government.


When choices conflict, and the merits of the activities are similar, then what is needed is compromise. Something I suggest you consider.


I have compromised, by allowing cyclists to have their own trails separate from hiking trails, something Mr. Vandeman would never permit.

No Ed, I did NOT advocate that others do what I do. I

said they should have the choice.

It amounts to the same thing. I want others to do what I do
because it is safe and fun. It will not injure or kill them.


How ? That's a ludicrous statement. I don't want to go base jumping but I am fully supportive of others' rights to do so if they wish. I'm not promoting an activity, I'm promoting freedom of choice.

“It amounts to the same thing. I want others to do what I do because it is safe and fun. It will not injure or kill them.” – Ed Dolan

Live a little Ed .. you might enjoy it. If everyone

was as risk averse as you we would still be sitting in caves. Remember
mountainbiking is pretty safe ... safer than road cycling, rugby, american
football, driving a car etc etc etc.

Accidents happen in any field of activity, but almost always
due to errors involved. Mountain biking is different. You do what you are
suppose to do and still have terrible inevitable accidents, accidents that
paralyze and kill. It is actually a form of insanity.


I was almost tempted to let this slide as it's so ridiculous. When you tackle someone on the American Football or Rugby fields you are doing what you are supposed to do. It does sometimes result in injury. You are NOT intending to fall off a mountain bike. That just happens sometimes.


However, the statistics don't lie ... there are way more serious injuries from American Football and Rugby (and many other sports) than mountain biking.


Statistics lie all the time because they never precisely measure what they purport to measure. Reports from the field are what matter and they prove that cycling on hiking trails is extremely dangerous. This is glossed over by the mountain biking community so that even kids, women and the elderly are encouraged to go mountain biking. The only ludicrous one here is you.

However, you are quite right to compare mountain biking to rough contact sports. Hiking on the other hand has never been considered any kind of sport as far as I know. It is simply an actively, good for body and soul.

Unlike Mr. Vandeman I am not opposed to cycling on trails. I
just want cyclists to get their own trails entirely separated from trails used
by hikers. I think if cycling trails were properly designed they could be made
fairly safe for casual cyclists. The macho types will always find ways to kill
themselves. That is a given.


Sometimes I agree ... some tracks should be exclusive. But, from the evidence in the videos that you posted, you can see the sparsity of use on most trails. I cannot see any validity in suggesting that it is necessary to double up on trails in such cases.


Separate trails for cyclists are the ONLY solution. I do not want cyclists on my trails anymore than you want motorcyclists on your trails. Sparsity of use has nothing to do with it. Hikers and cyclists are DOING different things on the trails and in fact are there for DIFFERENT purposes. Therefore, different trails are called for.

Mountain bikes have wheels. Wheels are for roads.

Trails are for walking. What’s the matter? Can’t walk?

Ed Dolan the Great
aka
Saint Edward the Great



EdwardDolan February 28th 14 01:10 AM

The Joys & Pleasures of Cycling on Trails
 
Just whenever I think there can’t possibly be a God, I am brought up short by a report such as this one. Yea, there must be a God after all if there can be this kind of strict justice in the world.

”Mountain bikers think nothing of riding illegally -- until they are
the victim of it.

http://www.illawarramercury.com.au/s...es-toll/?cs=12

Bulli trail bike ride takes toll

By BREE FULLER

Feb. 26, 2014, 4:10 a.m.

A Wollongong council worker hit and seriously injured a mountain
biker while riding his trail bike illegally.

Bulli trail bike ride takes toll

A Wollongong City Council worker who hit and seriously injured a
mountain biker while riding his trail bike illegally in bushland has
been criticised by a magistrate for his irresponsible behaviour.

Wollongong Local Court heard Tim Crinnion was riding illegally in the
Illawarra Escarpment State Conservation Area on December 22, 2012,
when he hit a cyclist travelling south on the Lower Escarpment Trail at Bulli.

The collision, on a blind corner, threw both men from their bikes and
knocked them unconscious.

The impact was so severe it snapped the carbon fibre mountain bike
frame and witnesses reported hearing a "loud cracking noise".

Both men suffered significant injuries and were airlifted from Bulli
Showground to hospital.

The court heard that Crinnion was riding illegally on the trail,
despite clear signage banning trail bikes from the environmentally
sensitive area.

Magistrate Geraldine Beattie, who accepted Crinnion had no criminal
history and was otherwise of good character, said the signs were
there to prevent such accidents.

"That is the very thing we are trying to stop by keeping motorbikes
out of there.

"It is of concern that someone of good character and in a responsible
position thought it was OK to ride a [trail] bike in that area in
contravention of those signs," she said.

The cyclist, who spent five days in hospital as a result of the
accident, suffered fractures to his right leg, hand, elbow, ribs, and
a suspected skull fracture.

He was unable to return to work until late February 2013.

The court heard Crinnion suffered a badly broken jaw and multiple
fractures to the skull.

He has also suffered from depression and anxiety following the
accident and sold his bike.

The magistrate accepted Crinnion was remorseful for the crime and had
attempted to contact his victim personally.

The court heard he had already paid the victim $5000 as compensation
for damages to his mountain bike. She fined him $2250 and ordered him
to pay an additional $1000 for professional costs.”

These two bozos richly deserved one another. This is the world of risk that Blackblade would willing undertake, all in the name of fun and games. The “thrill” would have been worth it according to him. Well, if you want to have this kind of fun, then this is how you pay for it. I don’t think hikers would ever have suffered an accident like this one no matter how hard they tried. Of course, given cyclists on hiking trails, anything is possible.

Mountain bikes have wheels. Wheels are for roads.

Trails are for walking. What’s the matter? Can’t walk?

Ed Dolan the Great
aka
Saint Edward the Great



EdwardDolan February 28th 14 06:16 AM

The Joys & Pleasures of Cycling on Trails
 
Another mountain biker bites the dust! He was a scientist, but as dumb as a rock for mountain biking when he should have been hiking.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/nelson-mail/n...-dies-suddenly

A Motueka scientist and Member of the New Zealand Order of Merit has died suddenly while mountainbiking.

Tony Whitaker dedicated his working life to studying New Zealand and Pacific amphibians. He was also deeply involved in several conservation projects and biosecurity work...

Mr Whitaker said then that one of his achievements in New Zealand had been becoming the first person to recognise that rodents were a problem for native lizards.

(But the guy could not see past his mtbing blindness to realize his mtn bike was also a problem??! I can't feel sorry for people like this...Are they all that daft?)”

Hey, this is the price you pay for thrills and spills. Is it worth it? Just ask Blackblade. He will tell you that it is worth it because the guy was doing what he wanted to do (freedom of choice), even if it killed him. Typical mountain biker ethos. Damn the torpedoes – full speed ahead!

I have got hundreds of reports like this one in my grubby little hands, yet Blackblade the Blind will tell you that the statistics say this “sport” is safe. I wish death and destruction on all who desecrate nature with their god damn ****ing bikes. It is nothing but just deserts – God punishing the Wicked.

“Tread softly! All the earth is holy ground.”
~ Christina Rossetti (Psalm 24),
from "A Later Life: A Double Sonnet of Sonnets"

Mountain bikes have wheels. Wheels are for roads.

Trails are for walking. What’s the matter? Can’t walk?

Ed Dolan the Great
aka
Saint Edward the Great


EdwardDolan February 28th 14 07:50 AM

The Joys & Pleasures of Cycling on Trails
 
Mountain biking is not only dangerous to the riders themselves, but is also devastating to the trails and trail sides and destroys values that other users would enjoy.

“Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2014 20:56:14 -0800
Subject: The Hidden Costs of Mountain Biking A Trip Up Romero Canyon With
Native Plant Enthusiast Frank Sovich
From: Karen Sullivan

have you seen this?

http://www.independent.com/news/2008...untain-biking/

Thursday, May 8, 2008
by RAY FORD (CONTACT)

Frank Sovich loves hiking Romero Canyon and you can tell it as we walk
up the trail. We stop at one point to check out a cluster lupine along
the edge of the trail, perfectly placed to provide a dash of color to
the overwhelmingly green canopy that covers most of the skyline. The
joy on his face as he tells me about them says it all.

Frank is from Carpinteria but with no trail access there he spends
much of his time hiking Romero - often once or twice a week. "I've got
a thing for native plants," Frank explains, "and the canyon is a great
place to enjoy them. Over the course of the next hour we check out a
dozen or more other plant species including one of my favorites, the
Humboldt lily (Lilium humboldtii), a tall thin reed-like perennial
that grows to heights of 8 feet and produce clusters of the most
intensely brilliant orangish-yellow flowers, jewels of the canyon if
only for the few weeks when they are in blossom.

"I'm not quite sure why this year," Frank tells me, "but they've come
up in much larger number than I've seen in quite a while." At one
point just above one of the many creek crossings there is a small
pool, perfectly located about halfway up the canyon trail. We stop to
splash a bit of water on our faces, sit back enjoy the sound of a
nearby canyon wren and the small waterfall that cascades into the
pool. It is an idyllic moment, the kind that makes having such places
so close to Santa Barbara such a special treat.

Trailside plants are especially susceptible to damage by users. Frank
has added rocks along the edges of the lillies to discourage bikers
from hitting the plants. Click to enlarge photo Ray Ford
Trailside plants are especially susceptible to damage by users. Frank
has added rocks along the edges of the lillies to discourage bikers
from hitting the plants.
Then we are back on the trail again. A few minutes later Frank points
a long section by the side of the trail that is filled with several
dozen of the lilies. "Look closely," Frank shows me, "many of the
stems are broken in half. A few others are just plain crushed." It
becomes evident after a bit of looking about that the reason for the
damage is the increased use of the trail by mountain bikers who aren't
always good at staying on the trail.

As we continue up the trail Frank points out numerous places where the
trail is being widened as the bikers seek out new lines to follow.
"I've been hiking Romero since the early 1990s and regularly for the
past 4-5 years and I'm seeing more and more damage," Frank adds. "It
isn't just the impacts from the mountain biking but the rapidity of
the damage they are causing."

It has gotten to such a point that Sovich is now placing small rocks
along the sides of the trail where the lupine lilies and other fragile
canyon vegetation grows to help keep them from being run over. That
may save a few plants but he wonders what the canyon will look like
another ten years from now if the use increases.

Mountain bikes cause the trail to become grooved when they speed down
the trail and brake hard into the corners. Click to enlarge photo Ray
Ford
Mountain bikes cause the trail to become grooved when they speed down
the trail and brake hard into the corners.
The damage is especially evident where the trail gets steeper and
particularly where it is both steep and rocky - which is about 80% of
the trail. "Not only are some parts of the trail now 5-6 feet wide, in
many places the bikes are riding up on the side of the hills above the
trail, widening them even further," Frank adds. "Then there are the
impacts caused by over use of the brakes when the riders go so fast
down the trails. The trail getting more grooved and the tires are
knocking rocks down on the trail, making it especially difficult to
hike back down the trail without slipping all over the place."

This past March 22 marked the day Sovich decided he couldn't take it
anymore. Over the forty-five minutes that it usually takes him to hike
up the canyon with his dogs, 17 mountain bikers came by. "They were
all polite," he remembers, "and there wasn't a question of either me
or the dogs being in danger. It was what this kind of use was going to
do to the canyon over time.

This is an example of a spot along the trail where mountain bikes have
cut a new shortcut down a steep section. The branches have been put in
place to discourage continued use by bikers.
"I'm not normally very aggressive when it comes to standing up and
saying enough is enough, but that day that many mountain bikers coming
down the trail was a few too many. When I got home I took out a list
I'd gotten from one of the local trail groups of newspapers, agencies
and organizations and started writing to anyone and everyone."

While many trail user organizations, especially those committed to
keeping the trails open to mountain biking, were busy defending their
rights at the Task Force meetings set up to study user conflict issues
on the trails, Sovich was taking a different point of tack, choosing
to speak out for the protection of the trails themselves and the
canyon ecosystems rather than the users themselves.

Once the grooves begin developing the trail can break down quite
rapidly. Click to enlarge photo Ray Ford
Once the grooves begin developing the trail can break down quite rapidly.
"Is anyone out there talking about what the costs are for allowing
downhill use of the trails by mountain bikers?" he asked. "It isn't
just the damage to the plants or the trails, it's the increased cost
of maintenance, the added trail signage, the money we'll need to come
up with to rebuild the trails to accommodate mountain biking, the
impacts on other trail users rights, the difference it makes
psychologically when you add mechanized vehicles on the trail - these
are big costs.

"Does the community really understand how much it will really cost and
what the impacts will be if we don't close at least some of the trails
to mountain biking? If I were king for a day, I'd close the Romero
Canyon Trail for sure, especially since the old road provides a
perfectly great route for them to get up to the top of the mountains.

Mountain bikers have the capability of going off the two-foot wide
tread and often do as shown here where they've scarred the hillside
above the trail.
"Then I'd take a new look at how we define multi-use. For mechanized
uses such as mountain biking, generally the trails are open until
someone proves they shouldn't be. It ought to be the other way around:
the trails should be closed to those uses until it's proved they're
not only safe but the damage they cause can be dealt with.”

But Blackblade sees none of this. He is too busy looking at the latest numbers (statistics) to come out of some research agency about how safe mountain biking is compared to some other stupid sport. Numbers are all that matter to him. What of any of the finer things that only hikers and equestrians will notice? He cares not a wit at what may be beside the trail and what damage he may be doing to it. Hells Bells, he does not even SEE anything – except the trail itself as an obstacle course to be overcome.

Mountain bikers are barbarians and have no right to be on any trail used by hikers – unless they want to get off their god damn ****ing bikes and walk like everyone else. When they crash and injury themselves, I rejoice! If and when the manage to kill themselves, I say good riddance to bad rubbish! Death to mountain bikers!

“Tread softly! All the earth is holy ground.”
~ Christina Rossetti (Psalm 24),
from "A Later Life: A Double Sonnet of Sonnets"

Mountain bikes have wheels. Wheels are for roads.

Trails are for walking. What’s the matter? Can’t walk?

Ed Dolan the Great
aka
Saint Edward the Great


Blackblade[_2_] February 28th 14 12:14 PM

The Joys & Pleasures of Cycling on Trails
 
I have already conceded that they are both recreations (not
sure how "valid" mountain biking is though), but they have to be managed
differently. Hiking is clearly a superior recreation compared to mountain
biking, but even if it weren't, it would still have to be managed
differently.


Hiking is NOT "clearly a superior recreation". That's a value judgement that many (possibly most) would not share.

All recreations have to be managed sensibly ... but that means pragmatic solutions to individual circumstances ... not messianic proclamations !

YOU posted the video links Ed ! Are you mentally impaired

? Why do you keep posting evidence that refutes your own positions ?

If you really want to see how mountain bikers behave on
trails, go to YouTube where you can see tons and tons of videos showing bikers
****ing up the trails. Trust me on this, you would not want to be on any hiking
trails used by mountain bikers.


Ed, YOU posted these links. Are they not representative of reality now ? If so, why did you post them ?

I think you'll find that, provided you can stop within the

distance that you can see to be clear, that there is no issue whatsoever with
disparate speeds. Why do you care what speed I'm doing elsewhere as long
as I pass you carefully and slowly and don't put you at risk ?

Trails wend and wind and sightlines are sometimes practically
nil.


What bit of "stop within the distance you can see to be clear" was unclear Ed ? If the sightline is practically nil then the speed needs to be that much slower. If it's a long way ahead then speed can be much higher. Simple.

A biker can be on you before he even sees you. The truth of the matter is
that bikers do not like to brake under any circumstances. You need to answer the question of why motorcycles and bikes should not
share the same trails. After all, they both not only have wheels, but have
brakes too!


Oh do stop going in circles ... it's very tiresome. I've addressed this issue ad nauseum. If power, speed, weight, noise and environmental damage differences between powered trail bikes and mountain bikes are not obvious to you then you need glasses and a hearing aid.


Blackblade[_2_] February 28th 14 12:24 PM

The Joys & Pleasures of Cycling on Trails
 
You've not shown that. YOU reject it but you're hardly
objective, or that civilised given your penchant for profanity.

What constitutes a superior ethos? Just one thing. The
judgment of your superiors.


Well, I think I am superior to you ...

I guess you think the opposite.

I'm happy to be judged by others based on what I've written here ... are you ?

When choices conflict, and the merits of the activities are

similar, then what is needed is compromise. Something I suggest you
consider.

I have compromised, by allowing cyclists to have their own
trails separate from hiking trails, something Mr. Vandeman would never
permit.


It's not your decision to make Ed ... you don't own the resource.

How ? That's a ludicrous statement. I don't want to go base
jumping but I am fully supportive of others' rights to do so if they wish..
I'm not promoting an activity, I'm promoting freedom of choice.

"It amounts to the same thing. I want others to do what I do because it is
safe and fun. It will not injure or kill them." - Ed Dolan


You are clearly missing the point ... suggest you go back, re-read and think some more. Permitting others to make a free choice does not equate to promotion.

I was almost tempted to let this slide as it's so

ridiculous. When you tackle someone on the American Football or Rugby
fields you are doing what you are supposed to do. It does sometimes result
in injury. You are NOT intending to fall off a mountain bike. That
just happens sometimes.

However, the statistics don't lie ... there are way more serious

injuries from American Football and Rugby (and many other sports) than mountain
biking.

Statistics lie all the time because they never precisely
measure what they purport to measure. Reports from the field are what matter and
they prove that cycling on hiking trails is extremely dangerous. This is glossed
over by the mountain biking community so that even kids, women and the elderly
are encouraged to go mountain biking. The only ludicrous one here is
you.


Well, all the "reports from the field" that your pal Vandeman can come up with equate to a death rate of 0.00123 per million miles travelled ... making mountainbiking a pretty safe endeavour. Even the reports from your supporters don't support your proposition.

However, you are quite right to compare mountain biking to
rough contact sports. Hiking on the other hand has never been considered any
kind of sport as far as I know. It is simply an actively, good for body and
soul.


Sport is good for body and soul ... I suggest you try it. Not everyone wants to amble slowly ... perhaps you have forgotten what it is to be young ?

Separate trails for cyclists are the ONLY solution. I do not
want cyclists on my trails anymore than you want motorcyclists on your trails.
Sparsity of use has nothing to do with it. Hikers and cyclists are DOING
different things on the trails and in fact are there for DIFFERENT purposes.
Therefore, different trails are called for.


They are not yours !!!! Nor mine for that matter. Cyclists and hikers are participating in a recreational activity. There is only such much resource to go around. Therefore, they are going to have to SHARE sometimes ! Not all the time, but sometimes.


Blackblade[_2_] February 28th 14 12:29 PM

The Joys & Pleasures of Cycling on Trails
 
I don't know about you, but I would rather hear from an expert in the field
than from bozo mountain bikers who are mostly jerk-offs and ****-ups with their
brains in their groin.


Despite what appears to be the ever increasing
diversity of WIIFM supporters that includes some
members of the more radical recreational groups
of four-wheel drivers, motorcycle riders,
prospectors, hunters and fishermen, they often
seem to be using very similar words.


You've heard from him ... he's concerned about four-wheel drivers, motorcycle riders, prospectors, hunters and fishermen. I don't see mountainbikers in that list ... probably because they have about the same impact as hikers.

If an area needs to be off limits then so be it ... but that includes hiking too as it is also a recreation and similarly impacting !

Blackblade[_2_] February 28th 14 12:31 PM

The Joys & Pleasures of Cycling on Trails
 
These two bozos richly deserved one another. This is the world of risk that
Blackblade would willing undertake, all in the name of fun and games. The
"thrill" would have been worth it according to him. Well, if you want to have
this kind of fun, then this is how you pay for it. I don't think hikers would
ever have suffered an accident like this one no matter how hard they tried. Of
course, given cyclists on hiking trails, anything is possible.


I was very clear that you are entitled to risk only your own neck ... not others. Stop willfully misrepresenting what I said.

The trail bike rider was breaking the law, clearly not riding within the 'be able to stop within the distance you can see to be clear' guideline and therefore wholly at fault. If a mountainbiker rode into a hiker in similar circumstances I would happily condemn that too ...

Blackblade[_2_] February 28th 14 12:43 PM

The Joys & Pleasures of Cycling on Trails
 
This past March 22 marked the day Sovich decided he couldn't take it
anymore. Over the forty-five minutes that it usually takes him to
hike up the canyon with his dogs, 17 mountain bikers came by. "They were
all polite," he remembers, "and there wasn't a question of either me
or the dogs being in danger. It was what this kind of use was going
to do to the canyon over time.


Ah, at last, we can cut to the chase. The issue has very little to do with mountainbikes vs hikers ... if there were 17 hikers also on that trail they would have caused similar levels of erosion.

I note also that this guy concedes that he did not feel threatened or endangered.

There is absolutely an issue ... we have to preserve the natural environment for future generations. My argument with you is that you seem to believe that hiking is entirely beneficial and mountainbiking harmful. The facts are that they are both activities which cause similar levels of erosion and there have to be user limits if we are not to destroy the things we love.

EdwardDolan March 1st 14 07:53 AM

The Joys & Pleasures of Cycling on Trails
 
"Blackblade" wrote in message ...

This past March 22 marked the day Sovich decided he couldn't take it
anymore. Over the forty-five minutes that it usually takes him to
hike up the canyon with his dogs, 17 mountain bikers came by. "They were
all polite," he remembers, "and there wasn't a question of either me
or the dogs being in danger. It was what this kind of use was going
to do to the canyon over time.


Ah, at last, we can cut to the chase. The issue has very little to do with mountainbikes vs hikers ... if there were 17 hikers also on that trail they would have caused similar levels of erosion.


I note also that this guy concedes that he did not feel threatened or endangered.


There are always saps in the world who do mind being pushed aside provided it is done with politeness. Mr. Vandeman is the expert on who causes what kind of erosion. I am the expert on who should be on a trail in the first place. It has to do with purpose, not who causes the most erosion.

There is absolutely an issue ... we have to preserve the natural environment for future generations. My argument with you is that you seem to believe that hiking is entirely beneficial and mountainbiking harmful. The facts are that they are both activities which cause similar levels of erosion and there have to be user limits if we are not to destroy the things we love.


I suppose you would think that motorcycles and all-terrain vehicles would also cause “similar” levels of erosion. All of that is a minor issue in my view. What matters to me is what one is doing on a trail in the first place. Are you contemplating nature (hikers) or are you sport riding a trail (bikers).

Mountain bikers are barbarians and have no right to be on any trail used by hikers – unless they want to get off their god damn ****ing bikes and walk like everyone else. When they crash and injury themselves, I rejoice! If and when the manage to kill themselves, I say good riddance to bad rubbish! Death to mountain bikers!

“Tread softly! All the earth is holy ground.”
~ Christina Rossetti (Psalm 24),
from "A Later Life: A Double Sonnet of Sonnets"

Mountain bikes have wheels. Wheels are for roads.

Trails are for walking. What’s the matter? Can’t walk?

Ed Dolan the Great
aka
Saint Edward the Great




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