The death of rim brakes?
I keep reading see all the bikes coming out and basically all disc brakes. I cannot believe rim brakes are going to be gone but maybe I am just kidding myself. I frankly hate the disc brake look and certainly for a long time parts will be around but are these rim brakes a dead deal.
Deacon Mark |
The death of rim brakes?
On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 2:34:24 PM UTC+1, wrote:
I keep reading see all the bikes coming out and basically all disc brakes.. I cannot believe rim brakes are going to be gone but maybe I am just kidding myself. I frankly hate the disc brake look and certainly for a long time parts will be around but are these rim brakes a dead deal. Deacon Mark Try to find a ATB without disc brakes. I think that is also gonna happen with road bikes. I was surprised how fast manufacturers adapted their frames to disc brakes. Lou |
The death of rim brakes?
|
The death of rim brakes?
On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 11:22:10 AM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/10/2019 11:07 AM, wrote: On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 2:34:24 PM UTC+1, wrote: I keep reading see all the bikes coming out and basically all disc brakes. I cannot believe rim brakes are going to be gone but maybe I am just kidding myself. I frankly hate the disc brake look and certainly for a long time parts will be around but are these rim brakes a dead deal. Deacon Mark Try to find a ATB without disc brakes. I think that is also gonna happen with road bikes. Fashion is weird and powerful. -- - Frank Krygowski A few years ago I nearly bought a new disc brake equipped MTB when my buddy bought his Da Vinci disc brake equipped MTB. However, after having seen how his bike ate disc brake pads I decide not to replace my old MTB after all.. I wonder how the cost of replacement disc brake pads over a number of years compares to the cost of a new rim over those same number of years? I've never worn out an MTB rim but my buddy was going thorough a pair of disc brake pads every week or so and that was just from riding or paved roads or crushed limestone stone dust rail-trails. He was NOT using the brakes all that much either. Three bicycle shops here in town could not figure out why his bike ate pads so fast and that includes the shop that specializes in cyclo-cross and MTB trails and has a cyclo-cross team. Just weird. Rim brakes are fine for a lot of bicyclists yet it seems that once again a choice will eventually be denied to consumers. On top of that, if your present bicycle is equipped with racks you'll most likely have to buy new ones that are disc brake compatible if you do buy a new bike. Those new racks aren't that cheap either. Cheers |
The death of rim brakes?
On 3/10/2019 10:47 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 11:22:10 AM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/10/2019 11:07 AM, wrote: On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 2:34:24 PM UTC+1, wrote: I keep reading see all the bikes coming out and basically all disc brakes. I cannot believe rim brakes are going to be gone but maybe I am just kidding myself. I frankly hate the disc brake look and certainly for a long time parts will be around but are these rim brakes a dead deal. Deacon Mark Try to find a ATB without disc brakes. I think that is also gonna happen with road bikes. Fashion is weird and powerful. -- - Frank Krygowski A few years ago I nearly bought a new disc brake equipped MTB when my buddy bought his Da Vinci disc brake equipped MTB. However, after having seen how his bike ate disc brake pads I decide not to replace my old MTB after all. I wonder how the cost of replacement disc brake pads over a number of years compares to the cost of a new rim over those same number of years? I've never worn out an MTB rim but my buddy was going thorough a pair of disc brake pads every week or so and that was just from riding or paved roads or crushed limestone stone dust rail-trails. He was NOT using the brakes all that much either. Three bicycle shops here in town could not figure out why his bike ate pads so fast and that includes the shop that specializes in cyclo-cross and MTB trails and has a cyclo-cross team. Just weird. Rim brakes are fine for a lot of bicyclists yet it seems that once again a choice will eventually be denied to consumers. On top of that, if your present bicycle is equipped with racks you'll most likely have to buy new ones that are disc brake compatible if you do buy a new bike. Those new racks aren't that cheap either. Cheers Depends on which frame you choose. Many quality frames don't have that problem: http://gunnarbikes.com/site/wp-conte...up-494x425.jpg https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1413/5...b85111f481.jpg -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
The death of rim brakes?
On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 3:06:56 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/10/2019 10:47 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 11:22:10 AM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/10/2019 11:07 AM, wrote: On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 2:34:24 PM UTC+1, wrote: I keep reading see all the bikes coming out and basically all disc brakes. I cannot believe rim brakes are going to be gone but maybe I am just kidding myself. I frankly hate the disc brake look and certainly for a long time parts will be around but are these rim brakes a dead deal. Deacon Mark Try to find a ATB without disc brakes. I think that is also gonna happen with road bikes. Fashion is weird and powerful. -- - Frank Krygowski A few years ago I nearly bought a new disc brake equipped MTB when my buddy bought his Da Vinci disc brake equipped MTB. However, after having seen how his bike ate disc brake pads I decide not to replace my old MTB after all. I wonder how the cost of replacement disc brake pads over a number of years compares to the cost of a new rim over those same number of years? I've never worn out an MTB rim but my buddy was going thorough a pair of disc brake pads every week or so and that was just from riding or paved roads or crushed limestone stone dust rail-trails. He was NOT using the brakes all that much either. Three bicycle shops here in town could not figure out why his bike ate pads so fast and that includes the shop that specializes in cyclo-cross and MTB trails and has a cyclo-cross team. Just weird. Rim brakes are fine for a lot of bicyclists yet it seems that once again a choice will eventually be denied to consumers. On top of that, if your present bicycle is equipped with racks you'll most likely have to buy new ones that are disc brake compatible if you do buy a new bike. Those new racks aren't that cheap either. Cheers Depends on which frame you choose. Many quality frames don't have that problem: http://gunnarbikes.com/site/wp-conte...up-494x425.jpg https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1413/5...b85111f481.jpg -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 Right! I forgot that I'd need to use through axles too. In other words nearly everything I have for a bicycle would be obsolete if I went to a disc brake equipped bike. Bummer. I think I'll just stay with my rim brakes. after all, I have enough spare parts including NOS Uniglide cassettes to keep my bicycles in operation until I'm 100 years old or dead whichever comes first. |
The death of rim brakes?
On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 8:22:10 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/10/2019 11:07 AM, wrote: On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 2:34:24 PM UTC+1, wrote: I keep reading see all the bikes coming out and basically all disc brakes. I cannot believe rim brakes are going to be gone but maybe I am just kidding myself. I frankly hate the disc brake look and certainly for a long time parts will be around but are these rim brakes a dead deal. Deacon Mark Try to find a ATB without disc brakes. I think that is also gonna happen with road bikes. Fashion is weird and powerful. For off road, discs are clearly better. It is not even debatable. Discs are better for some road applications as well, but clearly rim brakes are fine for dry weather road riding with aluminum rims. I'm sure they will be around forever. -- Jay Beattie. |
The death of rim brakes?
On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 4:08:34 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/10/2019 2:19 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 3:06:56 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote: On 3/10/2019 10:47 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 11:22:10 AM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/10/2019 11:07 AM, wrote: On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 2:34:24 PM UTC+1, wrote: I keep reading see all the bikes coming out and basically all disc brakes. I cannot believe rim brakes are going to be gone but maybe I am just kidding myself. I frankly hate the disc brake look and certainly for a long time parts will be around but are these rim brakes a dead deal. Deacon Mark Try to find a ATB without disc brakes. I think that is also gonna happen with road bikes. Fashion is weird and powerful. -- - Frank Krygowski A few years ago I nearly bought a new disc brake equipped MTB when my buddy bought his Da Vinci disc brake equipped MTB. However, after having seen how his bike ate disc brake pads I decide not to replace my old MTB after all. I wonder how the cost of replacement disc brake pads over a number of years compares to the cost of a new rim over those same number of years? I've never worn out an MTB rim but my buddy was going thorough a pair of disc brake pads every week or so and that was just from riding or paved roads or crushed limestone stone dust rail-trails. He was NOT using the brakes all that much either. Three bicycle shops here in town could not figure out why his bike ate pads so fast and that includes the shop that specializes in cyclo-cross and MTB trails and has a cyclo-cross team. Just weird. Rim brakes are fine for a lot of bicyclists yet it seems that once again a choice will eventually be denied to consumers. On top of that, if your present bicycle is equipped with racks you'll most likely have to buy new ones that are disc brake compatible if you do buy a new bike. Those new racks aren't that cheap either. Depends on which frame you choose. Many quality frames don't have that problem: http://gunnarbikes.com/site/wp-conte...up-494x425.jpg https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1413/5...b85111f481.jpg Right! I forgot that I'd need to use through axles too. In other words nearly everything I have for a bicycle would be obsolete if I went to a disc brake equipped bike. Bummer. I think I'll just stay with my rim brakes. after all, I have enough spare parts including NOS Uniglide cassettes to keep my bicycles in operation until I'm 100 years old or dead whichever comes first. Sorta. Through axle is an option but not necessary: http://gunnarbikes.com/site/bikes/fast-lane/ Regular wheels, regular carrier + mudguards. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 $1542.00 CDN for just the frame? No thanks; that's another 1542 reasons for me to stay with what I have for both on and off-road riding/touring. That'd buy me a LOT of new wheelsets if I ever needed them not to mention the number of spare wheels I have here already some with Dura Ace hubs. Cheers |
The death of rim brakes?
On 3/10/2019 3:51 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 8:22:10 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/10/2019 11:07 AM, wrote: On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 2:34:24 PM UTC+1, wrote: I keep reading see all the bikes coming out and basically all disc brakes. I cannot believe rim brakes are going to be gone but maybe I am just kidding myself. I frankly hate the disc brake look and certainly for a long time parts will be around but are these rim brakes a dead deal. Deacon Mark Try to find a ATB without disc brakes. I think that is also gonna happen with road bikes. Fashion is weird and powerful. For off road, discs are clearly better. It is not even debatable. Discs are better for some road applications as well... Agreed - but what is the magnitude on "better"? As I've said, we're deep into diminishing returns on bikes. Sales literature pushes people to buy a 17 pound bike instead of a 19 pound one, so the bike+rider weight diminishes by 1%. Get Dura-Ace instead of 105 because the shifts are 20 milliseconds faster. Ditch your front derailleur and reduce your aerodynamic drag. In real life, stopping "better" almost never means anything practical. but clearly rim brakes are fine for dry weather road riding with aluminum rims. I'm sure they will be around forever. Yes, and those of us who don't have to do panic stops in the rain on 10% downhills don't have to respond to this market churning. -- - Frank Krygowski |
The death of rim brakes?
On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 12:19:26 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 3:06:56 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote: On 3/10/2019 10:47 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 11:22:10 AM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/10/2019 11:07 AM, wrote: On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 2:34:24 PM UTC+1, wrote: I keep reading see all the bikes coming out and basically all disc brakes. I cannot believe rim brakes are going to be gone but maybe I am just kidding myself. I frankly hate the disc brake look and certainly for a long time parts will be around but are these rim brakes a dead deal. Deacon Mark Try to find a ATB without disc brakes. I think that is also gonna happen with road bikes. Fashion is weird and powerful. -- - Frank Krygowski A few years ago I nearly bought a new disc brake equipped MTB when my buddy bought his Da Vinci disc brake equipped MTB. However, after having seen how his bike ate disc brake pads I decide not to replace my old MTB after all. I wonder how the cost of replacement disc brake pads over a number of years compares to the cost of a new rim over those same number of years? I've never worn out an MTB rim but my buddy was going thorough a pair of disc brake pads every week or so and that was just from riding or paved roads or crushed limestone stone dust rail-trails. He was NOT using the brakes all that much either. Three bicycle shops here in town could not figure out why his bike ate pads so fast and that includes the shop that specializes in cyclo-cross and MTB trails and has a cyclo-cross team. Just weird. Rim brakes are fine for a lot of bicyclists yet it seems that once again a choice will eventually be denied to consumers. On top of that, if your present bicycle is equipped with racks you'll most likely have to buy new ones that are disc brake compatible if you do buy a new bike. Those new racks aren't that cheap either. Cheers Depends on which frame you choose. Many quality frames don't have that problem: http://gunnarbikes.com/site/wp-conte...up-494x425.jpg https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1413/5...b85111f481.jpg -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 Right! I forgot that I'd need to use through axles too. In other words nearly everything I have for a bicycle would be obsolete if I went to a disc brake equipped bike. Bummer. I think I'll just stay with my rim brakes. after all, I have enough spare parts including NOS Uniglide cassettes to keep my bicycles in operation until I'm 100 years old or dead whichever comes first. Cheers Well, now, that's a really happy thought. Got any other joyful comments which we can dust off and use? |
The death of rim brakes?
On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 12:51:54 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 8:22:10 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/10/2019 11:07 AM, wrote: On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 2:34:24 PM UTC+1, wrote: I keep reading see all the bikes coming out and basically all disc brakes. I cannot believe rim brakes are going to be gone but maybe I am just kidding myself. I frankly hate the disc brake look and certainly for a long time parts will be around but are these rim brakes a dead deal. Deacon Mark Try to find a ATB without disc brakes. I think that is also gonna happen with road bikes. Fashion is weird and powerful. For off road, discs are clearly better. It is not even debatable. Discs are better for some road applications as well, but clearly rim brakes are fine for dry weather road riding with aluminum rims. I'm sure they will be around forever. -- Jay Beattie. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pb-ntb7RNKE |
The death of rim brakes?
On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 12:51:54 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 8:22:10 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/10/2019 11:07 AM, wrote: On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 2:34:24 PM UTC+1, wrote: I keep reading see all the bikes coming out and basically all disc brakes. I cannot believe rim brakes are going to be gone but maybe I am just kidding myself. I frankly hate the disc brake look and certainly for a long time parts will be around but are these rim brakes a dead deal. Deacon Mark Try to find a ATB without disc brakes. I think that is also gonna happen with road bikes. Fashion is weird and powerful. For off road, discs are clearly better. It is not even debatable. Discs are better for some road applications as well, but clearly rim brakes are fine for dry weather road riding with aluminum rims. I'm sure they will be around forever. -- Jay Beattie. https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...187D&FORM=VIRE I cannot understand what could have happened to that other video where the owner said that his were not spoked tight enough. These things of mine are so tight that it is difficult to take out the 1 mm untrue that came with. On the tubeless I just bought they were perfect. |
The death of rim brakes?
On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 1:28:28 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/10/2019 3:51 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 8:22:10 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/10/2019 11:07 AM, wrote: On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 2:34:24 PM UTC+1, wrote: I keep reading see all the bikes coming out and basically all disc brakes. I cannot believe rim brakes are going to be gone but maybe I am just kidding myself. I frankly hate the disc brake look and certainly for a long time parts will be around but are these rim brakes a dead deal. Deacon Mark Try to find a ATB without disc brakes. I think that is also gonna happen with road bikes. Fashion is weird and powerful. For off road, discs are clearly better. It is not even debatable. Discs are better for some road applications as well... Agreed - but what is the magnitude on "better"? As I've said, we're deep into diminishing returns on bikes. Sales literature pushes people to buy a 17 pound bike instead of a 19 pound one, so the bike+rider weight diminishes by 1%. Get Dura-Ace instead of 105 because the shifts are 20 milliseconds faster. Ditch your front derailleur and reduce your aerodynamic drag. In real life, stopping "better" almost never means anything practical. but clearly rim brakes are fine for dry weather road riding with aluminum rims. I'm sure they will be around forever. Yes, and those of us who don't have to do panic stops in the rain on 10% downhills don't have to respond to this market churning. Nobody needs anything better than Cambio Corsa! Those getting into the market are not being price gouged for discs (except perhaps pad costs), and discs are better than rim brakes in many ways. Discs allow you to run massive tires and stop way better than cantis in conditions that justify using massive tires, like mud and snow. If you are a one-bike-quiver kind of person, a disc is really the way to go. Get a bike like my Norco Search, and you could race crits on Saturday, switch the wheels and go ride light single-track on Sunday. Or spend a ton of dough and get one of the 3T aero gravel bikes! https://us.3t.bike/en/products/bikes...mount-565.html Throw on fenders and big tires and be an all-weather hard man! Yes, if you jump into the disc and through axle market, don't expect to swap wheels with your 1987 Cannondale -- but then again, don't expect to swap your 1987 wheels with your 1997 wheels. Your rack should work with some spacers on a disc frame. Your disc frame will also have an internal headset, BB30 or something like it (unless you shop for a threaded BB), and probably a half-dozen things that will make you cry about the modern era. Some crying is justified, particularly if you get a frame with all internally routed cabling. But when its all put together, it's quite nice. Again, though, I'm perfectly content with caliper brakes on my dry weather Emonda. Great ride today. -- Jay Beattie. |
The death of rim brakes?
On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 8:34:24 AM UTC-5, wrote:
I keep reading see all the bikes coming out and basically all disc brakes.. I cannot believe rim brakes are going to be gone but maybe I am just kidding myself. I frankly hate the disc brake look and certainly for a long time parts will be around but are these rim brakes a dead deal. Deacon Mark One of my issues is that I realize we will have rim brake bikes for awhile but I just hope to keep the nice looks and basic set up. If it is not broke don't fix the puppy. The one item I have never experience is the idea on a long descend you can blow a tube. In the flatlands that to me seems impossible. To blow a tube on a long descend does the speed have to be really fast like about 40mph or say at 25mph for a long time. The biggest descend I have done is about 7% grade total for about a mile and the last say 1/4 mile is got to 9%. I could easily feather the brakes to avoid heat but maybe my experience is really limited for true mountain riding. Can you just pull the brakes up pretty good to get to a speed that is comfortable. In my case this descend got me to about 43mph my top speed for sure. Had the it been longer I don't know long I could have continued before I got to damn scared. Confession of the deacon in lent Deacon Mark |
The death of rim brakes?
wrote:
On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 8:34:24 AM UTC-5, wrote: I keep reading see all the bikes coming out and basically all disc brakes. I cannot believe rim brakes are going to be gone but maybe I am just kidding myself. I frankly hate the disc brake look and certainly for a long time parts will be around but are these rim brakes a dead deal. Deacon Mark One of my issues is that I realize we will have rim brake bikes for awhile but I just hope to keep the nice looks and basic set up. If it is not broke don't fix the puppy. The one item I have never experience is the idea on a long descend you can blow a tube. In the flatlands that to me seems impossible. To blow a tube on a long descend does the speed have to be really fast like about 40mph or say at 25mph for a long time. The biggest descend I have done is about 7% grade total for about a mile and the last say 1/4 mile is got to 9%. I could easily feather the brakes to avoid heat but maybe my experience is really limited for true mountain riding. Can you just pull the brakes up pretty good to get to a speed that is comfortable. In my case this descend got me to about 43mph my top speed for sure. Had the it been longer I don't know long I could have continued before I got to damn scared. Confession of the deacon in lent Deacon Mark It’s dragging brakes that does it, not personally had it and have more experience of seeing lorries with burning brakes for the same reason, around the area I grew up that has some steep and reasonably long hills, as kids the main road though the village passing over it via a footbridge you’d see lorries either in the sandpit on fire or driving past smoking. I’ve ridden down 0.5-22 mile hills on rims and discs, shorter sharper braking is generally better, and smooth! Is the trick to being quick and safe. Roger Merriman |
The death of rim brakes?
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/10/2019 3:51 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 8:22:10 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/10/2019 11:07 AM, wrote: On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 2:34:24 PM UTC+1, wrote: I keep reading see all the bikes coming out and basically all disc brakes. I cannot believe rim brakes are going to be gone but maybe I am just kidding myself. I frankly hate the disc brake look and certainly for a long time parts will be around but are these rim brakes a dead deal. Deacon Mark Try to find a ATB without disc brakes. I think that is also gonna happen with road bikes. Fashion is weird and powerful. For off road, discs are clearly better. It is not even debatable. Discs are better for some road applications as well... Agreed - but what is the magnitude on "better"? As I've said, we're deep into diminishing returns on bikes. Sales literature pushes people to buy a 17 pound bike instead of a 19 pound one, so the bike+rider weight diminishes by 1%. Get Dura-Ace instead of 105 because the shifts are 20 milliseconds faster. Ditch your front derailleur and reduce your aerodynamic drag. In real life, stopping "better" almost never means anything practical. but clearly rim brakes are fine for dry weather road riding with aluminum rims. I'm sure they will be around forever. Yes, and those of us who don't have to do panic stops in the rain on 10% downhills don't have to respond to this market churning. I have a Gravel bike, it replaces the CX bike. At that size of tyre your on canti which for a CX race is fine, but rapidly feel underpowered on big hills even in the dry, on tarmac. Discs make 30-40mm road bikes much less of a compromise. I agree that in the dry rims particularly good dual pivots are great brakes but unless that’s your Sunday best bike that only sees dry roads, it seems foolish to plan for best case. Roger Merriman |
The death of rim brakes?
Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 11:22:10 AM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/10/2019 11:07 AM, wrote: On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 2:34:24 PM UTC+1, wrote: I keep reading see all the bikes coming out and basically all disc brakes. I cannot believe rim brakes are going to be gone but maybe I am just kidding myself. I frankly hate the disc brake look and certainly for a long time parts will be around but are these rim brakes a dead deal. Deacon Mark Try to find a ATB without disc brakes. I think that is also gonna happen with road bikes. Fashion is weird and powerful. -- - Frank Krygowski A few years ago I nearly bought a new disc brake equipped MTB when my buddy bought his Da Vinci disc brake equipped MTB. However, after having seen how his bike ate disc brake pads I decide not to replace my old MTB after all. I wonder how the cost of replacement disc brake pads over a number of years compares to the cost of a new rim over those same number of years? I've never worn out an MTB rim but my buddy was going thorough a pair of disc brake pads every week or so and that was just from riding or paved roads or crushed limestone stone dust rail-trails. He was NOT using the brakes all that much either. Three bicycle shops here in town could not figure out why his bike ate pads so fast and that includes the shop that specializes in cyclo-cross and MTB trails and has a cyclo-cross team. Just weird. Rim brakes are fine for a lot of bicyclists yet it seems that once again a choice will eventually be denied to consumers. On top of that, if your present bicycle is equipped with racks you'll most likely have to buy new ones that are disc brake compatible if you do buy a new bike. Those new racks aren't that cheap either. Cheers That probably depends on your use case, personally I found wet gritty MTB rides shredded pads on Canti back in the day, and CX bikes until recently. Disc pads particularly sintered last a fair bit 3k on the gravel bike and commute bike, MTB hugely varied though it’s a much more capable than the old rim MTB I used and thus gets used harder so not a terribly fair comparison. I’ve had some cheap rack on my old MTB for commute for few years, now disc ones aren’t a problem, there have been discs for over 10 years now it’s mildly new for road bikes but for MTBs it’s old tech it’s self! Roger Merriman |
The death of rim brakes?
On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 4:48:00 PM UTC+1, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 11:22:10 AM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/10/2019 11:07 AM, wrote: On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 2:34:24 PM UTC+1, wrote: I keep reading see all the bikes coming out and basically all disc brakes. I cannot believe rim brakes are going to be gone but maybe I am just kidding myself. I frankly hate the disc brake look and certainly for a long time parts will be around but are these rim brakes a dead deal. Deacon Mark Try to find a ATB without disc brakes. I think that is also gonna happen with road bikes. Fashion is weird and powerful. -- - Frank Krygowski A few years ago I nearly bought a new disc brake equipped MTB when my buddy bought his Da Vinci disc brake equipped MTB. However, after having seen how his bike ate disc brake pads I decide not to replace my old MTB after all. I wonder how the cost of replacement disc brake pads over a number of years compares to the cost of a new rim over those same number of years? I've never worn out an MTB rim but my buddy was going thorough a pair of disc brake pads every week or so and that was just from riding or paved roads or crushed limestone stone dust rail-trails. He was NOT using the brakes all that much either. Three bicycle shops here in town could not figure out why his bike ate pads so fast and that includes the shop that specializes in cyclo-cross and MTB trails and has a cyclo-cross team. Just weird. Rim brakes are fine for a lot of bicyclists yet it seems that once again a choice will eventually be denied to consumers. On top of that, if your present bicycle is equipped with racks you'll most likely have to buy new ones that are disc brake compatible if you do buy a new bike. Those new racks aren't that cheap either. Cheers That is an unusual wear of pads. Lou |
The death of rim brakes?
On 3/10/2019 6:15 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/10/2019 3:51 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 8:22:10 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/10/2019 11:07 AM, wrote: On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 2:34:24 PM UTC+1, wrote: I keep reading see all the bikes coming out and basically all disc brakes. I cannot believe rim brakes are going to be gone but maybe I am just kidding myself. I frankly hate the disc brake look and certainly for a long time parts will be around but are these rim brakes a dead deal. Deacon Mark Try to find a ATB without disc brakes. I think that is also gonna happen with road bikes. Fashion is weird and powerful. For off road, discs are clearly better. It is not even debatable. Discs are better for some road applications as well... Agreed - but what is the magnitude on "better"? As I've said, we're deep into diminishing returns on bikes. Sales literature pushes people to buy a 17 pound bike instead of a 19 pound one, so the bike+rider weight diminishes by 1%. Get Dura-Ace instead of 105 because the shifts are 20 milliseconds faster. Ditch your front derailleur and reduce your aerodynamic drag. In real life, stopping "better" almost never means anything practical. but clearly rim brakes are fine for dry weather road riding with aluminum rims. I'm sure they will be around forever. Yes, and those of us who don't have to do panic stops in the rain on 10% downhills don't have to respond to this market churning. I have a Gravel bike, it replaces the CX bike. At that size of tyre your on canti which for a CX race is fine, but rapidly feel underpowered on big hills even in the dry, on tarmac. Discs make 30-40mm road bikes much less of a compromise. I agree that in the dry rims particularly good dual pivots are great brakes but unless that’s your Sunday best bike that only sees dry roads, it seems foolish to plan for best case. Well, the rim brakes on my various bikes are the ones that were used for _every_ case since 1976. The only brake failure I ever experienced was before them, on my first super-cheap 10 speed with chrome steel rims, during a pouring thunderstorm. I had to overshoot the turn I was planning to make. I don't care if people prefer discs. But it bothers me when manufacturers or others start implying that rim brakes are inadequate for even ordinary riding. -- - Frank Krygowski |
The death of rim brakes?
|
The death of rim brakes?
On 3/10/2019 6:38 PM, wrote:
On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 4:48:00 PM UTC+1, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 11:22:10 AM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/10/2019 11:07 AM, wrote: On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 2:34:24 PM UTC+1, wrote: I keep reading see all the bikes coming out and basically all disc brakes. I cannot believe rim brakes are going to be gone but maybe I am just kidding myself. I frankly hate the disc brake look and certainly for a long time parts will be around but are these rim brakes a dead deal. Deacon Mark Try to find a ATB without disc brakes. I think that is also gonna happen with road bikes. Fashion is weird and powerful. -- - Frank Krygowski A few years ago I nearly bought a new disc brake equipped MTB when my buddy bought his Da Vinci disc brake equipped MTB. However, after having seen how his bike ate disc brake pads I decide not to replace my old MTB after all. I wonder how the cost of replacement disc brake pads over a number of years compares to the cost of a new rim over those same number of years? I've never worn out an MTB rim but my buddy was going thorough a pair of disc brake pads every week or so and that was just from riding or paved roads or crushed limestone stone dust rail-trails. He was NOT using the brakes all that much either. Three bicycle shops here in town could not figure out why his bike ate pads so fast and that includes the shop that specializes in cyclo-cross and MTB trails and has a cyclo-cross team. Just weird. Rim brakes are fine for a lot of bicyclists yet it seems that once again a choice will eventually be denied to consumers. On top of that, if your present bicycle is equipped with racks you'll most likely have to buy new ones that are disc brake compatible if you do buy a new bike. Those new racks aren't that cheap either. Cheers That is an unusual wear of pads. I've said this before, but if you're heading out on a long tour with a disc brake bike, take extra pads. We hosted a guy whose pads suddenly wore out during a tour, leaving him without brakes until he could find a bike shop on his route. -- - Frank Krygowski |
The death of rim brakes?
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/10/2019 6:15 PM, Roger Merriman wrote: Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/10/2019 3:51 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 8:22:10 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/10/2019 11:07 AM, wrote: On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 2:34:24 PM UTC+1, wrote: I keep reading see all the bikes coming out and basically all disc brakes. I cannot believe rim brakes are going to be gone but maybe I am just kidding myself. I frankly hate the disc brake look and certainly for a long time parts will be around but are these rim brakes a dead deal. Deacon Mark Try to find a ATB without disc brakes. I think that is also gonna happen with road bikes. Fashion is weird and powerful. For off road, discs are clearly better. It is not even debatable. Discs are better for some road applications as well... Agreed - but what is the magnitude on "better"? As I've said, we're deep into diminishing returns on bikes. Sales literature pushes people to buy a 17 pound bike instead of a 19 pound one, so the bike+rider weight diminishes by 1%. Get Dura-Ace instead of 105 because the shifts are 20 milliseconds faster. Ditch your front derailleur and reduce your aerodynamic drag. In real life, stopping "better" almost never means anything practical. but clearly rim brakes are fine for dry weather road riding with aluminum rims. I'm sure they will be around forever. Yes, and those of us who don't have to do panic stops in the rain on 10% downhills don't have to respond to this market churning. I have a Gravel bike, it replaces the CX bike. At that size of tyre your on canti which for a CX race is fine, but rapidly feel underpowered on big hills even in the dry, on tarmac. Discs make 30-40mm road bikes much less of a compromise. I agree that in the dry rims particularly good dual pivots are great brakes but unless that’s your Sunday best bike that only sees dry roads, it seems foolish to plan for best case. Well, the rim brakes on my various bikes are the ones that were used for _every_ case since 1976. The only brake failure I ever experienced was before them, on my first super-cheap 10 speed with chrome steel rims, during a pouring thunderstorm. I had to overshoot the turn I was planning to make. I don't care if people prefer discs. But it bothers me when manufacturers or others start implying that rim brakes are inadequate for even ordinary riding. I think it’s been more rider than manufacture lead, partially if you’re grown up with MTB which have had big stonking Hydro systems for years, I can remember a number of younger guys with their first road bike commenting on the lack of brakes in comparison. Stuff changes roadies do tend to be generally more conservative than MTB so I’d not be surprised if rim brakes survive in some form, after all you can get rim braked MTB still only cheap hardtail but it’s been 15/20 years now? So I could see rim brakes surviving in some form, apart from anything else there is a lot of road bikes with rim brakes out there! But I could see even a few new bikes which aren’t BSO like MTB using rim brakes being continued to be made if only niche. Roger Merriman |
The death of rim brakes?
On Sun, 10 Mar 2019 20:21:40 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote: On 3/10/2019 5:52 PM, wrote: On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 8:34:24 AM UTC-5, wrote: I keep reading see all the bikes coming out and basically all disc brakes. I cannot believe rim brakes are going to be gone but maybe I am just kidding myself. I frankly hate the disc brake look and certainly for a long time parts will be around but are these rim brakes a dead deal. Deacon Mark One of my issues is that I realize we will have rim brake bikes for awhile but I just hope to keep the nice looks and basic set up. If it is not broke don't fix the puppy. The one item I have never experience is the idea on a long descend you can blow a tube. In the flatlands that to me seems impossible. To blow a tube on a long descend does the speed have to be really fast like about 40mph or say at 25mph for a long time. The biggest descend I have done is about 7% grade total for about a mile and the last say 1/4 mile is got to 9%. I could easily feather the brakes to avoid heat but maybe my experience is really limited for true mountain riding. Can you just pull the brakes up pretty good to get to a speed that is comfortable. In my case this descend got me to about 43mph my top speed for sure. Had the it been longer I don't know long I could have continued before I got to damn scared. Long, long ago I read a technical article in some bike magazine. (There used to be real technical articles in bike magazines.) This one was about brake energy (or really, power in the engineering sense of work per unit time) and temperature rise during long descents. The article explained that the braking power depended on brake force and speed. For any given hill, you could always use the brakes to go super slow. Brake force will be high, but speed will be low and power will be low, leading to less temperature rise. Alternately, you could descend very fast, braking only lightly or not at all. Brake force will be low or zero. (There's also more aerodynamic cooling.) This too will lead to less temperature rise. The author claimed, using lots of calculations summarized in graphs, that the greatest temperature rise occurred by using the brakes to keep the speed about 30 mph or 50 kph. Trouble is, this is exactly the speed lots of cyclists choose for long descents. Any slower and they feel like slugs. Any faster and they get scared. I blew only one tire on a downhill, on the rear of our tandem, creeping down a short ( 1/10 mile) steep grade well over 10%. We just rode the bike to the bottom and I changed the tube. But I can see it would be a problem if the front tire blew. Phuket, Thailand has several extremely steep hills on the western side of the island, steep enough that it is difficult to push a bike up them. Out of curiosity I did push the bike up one and coasted down the eastern side. Having read all the hoopalla about the rims getting hot and tires blowing I stopped about half way down and felt the rims... they were, perhaps, a bit warmer than ambient temperature. But. As the east side of the hill is a series of "S" turns one can't just coast down the mountain but must slow down every hundred yards or so to make the next corner so my braking was a series of pretty hard brake applications followed by, perhaps, an equal period of coasting. I have since used that method when descending hills and an occasional check shows that the rims do not get excessively hot. -- Cheers, John B. |
The death of rim brakes?
On 3/10/2019 10:10 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 10 Mar 2019 20:21:40 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/10/2019 5:52 PM, wrote: On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 8:34:24 AM UTC-5, wrote: I keep reading see all the bikes coming out and basically all disc brakes. I cannot believe rim brakes are going to be gone but maybe I am just kidding myself. I frankly hate the disc brake look and certainly for a long time parts will be around but are these rim brakes a dead deal. Deacon Mark One of my issues is that I realize we will have rim brake bikes for awhile but I just hope to keep the nice looks and basic set up. If it is not broke don't fix the puppy. The one item I have never experience is the idea on a long descend you can blow a tube. In the flatlands that to me seems impossible. To blow a tube on a long descend does the speed have to be really fast like about 40mph or say at 25mph for a long time. The biggest descend I have done is about 7% grade total for about a mile and the last say 1/4 mile is got to 9%. I could easily feather the brakes to avoid heat but maybe my experience is really limited for true mountain riding. Can you just pull the brakes up pretty good to get to a speed that is comfortable. In my case this descend got me to about 43mph my top speed for sure. Had the it been longer I don't know long I could have continued before I got to damn scared. Long, long ago I read a technical article in some bike magazine. (There used to be real technical articles in bike magazines.) This one was about brake energy (or really, power in the engineering sense of work per unit time) and temperature rise during long descents. The article explained that the braking power depended on brake force and speed. For any given hill, you could always use the brakes to go super slow. Brake force will be high, but speed will be low and power will be low, leading to less temperature rise. Alternately, you could descend very fast, braking only lightly or not at all. Brake force will be low or zero. (There's also more aerodynamic cooling.) This too will lead to less temperature rise. The author claimed, using lots of calculations summarized in graphs, that the greatest temperature rise occurred by using the brakes to keep the speed about 30 mph or 50 kph. Trouble is, this is exactly the speed lots of cyclists choose for long descents. Any slower and they feel like slugs. Any faster and they get scared. I blew only one tire on a downhill, on the rear of our tandem, creeping down a short ( 1/10 mile) steep grade well over 10%. We just rode the bike to the bottom and I changed the tube. But I can see it would be a problem if the front tire blew. Phuket, Thailand has several extremely steep hills on the western side of the island, steep enough that it is difficult to push a bike up them. Out of curiosity I did push the bike up one and coasted down the eastern side. Having read all the hoopalla about the rims getting hot and tires blowing I stopped about half way down and felt the rims... they were, perhaps, a bit warmer than ambient temperature. But. As the east side of the hill is a series of "S" turns one can't just coast down the mountain but must slow down every hundred yards or so to make the next corner so my braking was a series of pretty hard brake applications followed by, perhaps, an equal period of coasting. I have since used that method when descending hills and an occasional check shows that the rims do not get excessively hot. Omega and others make temperature indicator dots. They turn black and stay black when their rated temperature is reached. https://www.omega.com/pptst/TL-C5_LABELS.html They're single use products. Back when Jobst was with us, there was talk of sticking these on some rims and doing tests, but I don't recall if anyone actually did that, or what the results were. -- - Frank Krygowski |
The death of rim brakes?
On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 11:46:16 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Snipped Back when Jobst was with us, there was talk of sticking these on some rims and doing tests, but I don't recall if anyone actually did that, or what the results were. -- - Frank Krygowski Jobst and Carl Fogel are both missed. Cheers |
The death of rim brakes?
On 3/11/19 1:24 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/10/2019 6:38 PM, wrote: On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 4:48:00 PM UTC+1, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 11:22:10 AM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/10/2019 11:07 AM, wrote: On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 2:34:24 PM UTC+1, wrote: I keep reading see all the bikes coming out and basically all disc brakes. I cannot believe rim brakes are going to be gone but maybe I am just kidding myself. I frankly hate the disc brake look and certainly for a long time parts will be around but are these rim brakes a dead deal. Deacon Mark Try to find a ATB without disc brakes. I think that is also gonna happen with road bikes. Fashion is weird and powerful. -- - Frank Krygowski A few years ago I nearly bought a new disc brake equipped MTB when my buddy bought his Da Vinci disc brake equipped MTB. However, after having seen how his bike ate disc brake pads I decide not to replace my old MTB after all. I wonder how the cost of replacement disc brake pads over a number of years compares to the cost of a new rim over those same number of years? I've never worn out an MTB rim but my buddy was going thorough a pair of disc brake pads every week or so and that was just from riding or paved roads or crushed limestone stone dust rail-trails. He was NOT using the brakes all that much either. Three bicycle shops here in town could not figure out why his bike ate pads so fast and that includesÂ* the shop that specializes in cyclo-cross and MTB trails and has a cyclo-cross team. Just weird. Rim brakes are fine for a lot of bicyclists yet it seems that once again a choice will eventually be denied to consumers. On top of that, if your present bicycle is equipped with racks you'll most likely have to buy new ones that are disc brake compatible if you do buy a new bike. Those new racks aren't that cheap either. Cheers That is an unusual wear of pads. I've said this before, but if you're heading out on a long tour with a disc brake bike, take extra pads. We hosted a guy whose pads suddenly wore out during a tour, leaving him without brakes until he could find a bike shop on his route. I'm wearing out discs (every 4 years) faster than pads. What am I doing wrong? |
The death of rim brakes?
On 3/11/19 1:10 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
snip Well, the rim brakes on my various bikes are the ones that were used for _every_ case since 1976. The only brake failure I ever experienced was before them, on my first super-cheap 10 speed with chrome steel rims, during a pouring thunderstorm. I had to overshoot the turn I was planning to make. I don't care if people prefer discs. But it bothers me when manufacturers or others start implying that rim brakes are inadequate for even ordinary riding. Why did we ever move away from chromed steel rims? Cheap and easy to manufacture, lasted for ever (you still see them about!) and looked great! |
The death of rim brakes?
On Mon, 11 Mar 2019 07:13:52 +0100, Tosspot
wrote: On 3/11/19 1:10 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote: snip Well, the rim brakes on my various bikes are the ones that were used for _every_ case since 1976. The only brake failure I ever experienced was before them, on my first super-cheap 10 speed with chrome steel rims, during a pouring thunderstorm. I had to overshoot the turn I was planning to make. I don't care if people prefer discs. But it bothers me when manufacturers or others start implying that rim brakes are inadequate for even ordinary riding. Why did we ever move away from chromed steel rims? Cheap and easy to manufacture, lasted for ever (you still see them about!) and looked great! And you had to drag your feet to stop :-) -- Cheers, John B. |
The death of rim brakes?
On 3/11/2019 2:13 AM, Tosspot wrote:
On 3/11/19 1:10 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote: snip Well, the rim brakes on my various bikes are the ones that were used for _every_ case since 1976. The only brake failure I ever experienced was before them, on my first super-cheap 10 speed with chrome steel rims, during a pouring thunderstorm. I had to overshoot the turn I was planning to make. I don't care if people prefer discs. But it bothers me when manufacturers or others start implying that rim brakes are inadequate for even ordinary riding. Why did we ever move away from chromed steel rims?Â* Cheap and easy to manufacture, lasted for ever (you still see them about!) and looked great! I suspect the main reason was weight. But there were tremendous differences in braking when wet. The incident I mentioned was an example. The rain was pouring down heavily. I coasted down a slight hill intending to turn right into a little road at the bottom. But the brakes had no effect for perhaps five seconds or more. I rolled right past that little road. Those were probably the worst style of chrome steel rims. They featured little pits on their braking surface, perhaps intended to provide roughness and aid braking, I don't know. But they acted as little water reservoirs, keeping the brake pads from wiping the rims dry. I've heard that there were hard-to-find brake blocks that worked well with wet chrome steel rims, but I've never seen them in the flesh, let alone tested them. -- - Frank Krygowski |
The death of rim brakes?
On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 3:15:24 PM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
wrote: On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 8:34:24 AM UTC-5, wrote: I keep reading see all the bikes coming out and basically all disc brakes. I cannot believe rim brakes are going to be gone but maybe I am just kidding myself. I frankly hate the disc brake look and certainly for a long time parts will be around but are these rim brakes a dead deal. Deacon Mark One of my issues is that I realize we will have rim brake bikes for awhile but I just hope to keep the nice looks and basic set up. If it is not broke don't fix the puppy. The one item I have never experience is the idea on a long descend you can blow a tube. In the flatlands that to me seems impossible. To blow a tube on a long descend does the speed have to be really fast like about 40mph or say at 25mph for a long time. The biggest descend I have done is about 7% grade total for about a mile and the last say 1/4 mile is got to 9%. I could easily feather the brakes to avoid heat but maybe my experience is really limited for true mountain riding. Can you just pull the brakes up pretty good to get to a speed that is comfortable. In my case this descend got me to about 43mph my top speed for sure. Had the it been longer I don't know long I could have continued before I got to damn scared. Confession of the deacon in lent Deacon Mark It’s dragging brakes that does it, not personally had it and have more experience of seeing lorries with burning brakes for the same reason, around the area I grew up that has some steep and reasonably long hills, as kids the main road though the village passing over it via a footbridge you’d see lorries either in the sandpit on fire or driving past smoking. I’ve ridden down 0.5-22 mile hills on rims and discs, shorter sharper braking is generally better, and smooth! Is the trick to being quick and safe. Roger Merriman I agree but I also know that since I had that tire blow completely off of the rim the other day, that you always have to have tires you have complete faith in. There most definitely was some sort of damage to the bead on that tire. Since it really wasn't a tubeless tire we can expect that the loadings on clinches is quite a bit different than on a tubeless but I think that I will have to have a great deal of experience with tubeless tires before I have sufficient faith in them to do the 40-50 mph descents I was doing with clinchers in order to avoid using the brakes and overheating the rims. As to disks taking over - I don't believe that will ever occur. If for no other reason than rim brakes can be aerodynamically invisible whereas disks cannot be. |
The death of rim brakes?
On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 7:10:21 PM UTC-7, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 10 Mar 2019 20:21:40 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/10/2019 5:52 PM, wrote: On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 8:34:24 AM UTC-5, wrote: I keep reading see all the bikes coming out and basically all disc brakes. I cannot believe rim brakes are going to be gone but maybe I am just kidding myself. I frankly hate the disc brake look and certainly for a long time parts will be around but are these rim brakes a dead deal. Deacon Mark One of my issues is that I realize we will have rim brake bikes for awhile but I just hope to keep the nice looks and basic set up. If it is not broke don't fix the puppy. The one item I have never experience is the idea on a long descend you can blow a tube. In the flatlands that to me seems impossible. To blow a tube on a long descend does the speed have to be really fast like about 40mph or say at 25mph for a long time. The biggest descend I have done is about 7% grade total for about a mile and the last say 1/4 mile is got to 9%. I could easily feather the brakes to avoid heat but maybe my experience is really limited for true mountain riding. Can you just pull the brakes up pretty good to get to a speed that is comfortable. In my case this descend got me to about 43mph my top speed for sure. Had the it been longer I don't know long I could have continued before I got to damn scared. Long, long ago I read a technical article in some bike magazine. (There used to be real technical articles in bike magazines.) This one was about brake energy (or really, power in the engineering sense of work per unit time) and temperature rise during long descents. The article explained that the braking power depended on brake force and speed. For any given hill, you could always use the brakes to go super slow. Brake force will be high, but speed will be low and power will be low, leading to less temperature rise. Alternately, you could descend very fast, braking only lightly or not at all. Brake force will be low or zero. (There's also more aerodynamic cooling.) This too will lead to less temperature rise. The author claimed, using lots of calculations summarized in graphs, that the greatest temperature rise occurred by using the brakes to keep the speed about 30 mph or 50 kph. Trouble is, this is exactly the speed lots of cyclists choose for long descents. Any slower and they feel like slugs. Any faster and they get scared. I blew only one tire on a downhill, on the rear of our tandem, creeping down a short ( 1/10 mile) steep grade well over 10%. We just rode the bike to the bottom and I changed the tube. But I can see it would be a problem if the front tire blew. Phuket, Thailand has several extremely steep hills on the western side of the island, steep enough that it is difficult to push a bike up them. Out of curiosity I did push the bike up one and coasted down the eastern side. Having read all the hoopalla about the rims getting hot and tires blowing I stopped about half way down and felt the rims... they were, perhaps, a bit warmer than ambient temperature. But. As the east side of the hill is a series of "S" turns one can't just coast down the mountain but must slow down every hundred yards or so to make the next corner so my braking was a series of pretty hard brake applications followed by, perhaps, an equal period of coasting. I have since used that method when descending hills and an occasional check shows that the rims do not get excessively hot. -- Cheers, John B. John, it has to do with energy dispersal into the rim/tire combination. Steep isn't enough. If you're holding your brakes on to keep a low speed all the way down you don't gain enough energy due to gravitational acceleration to overheat them. But you do wear out the brake pads and rim brake area depth. |
The death of rim brakes?
On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 11:10:49 PM UTC-7, Tosspot wrote:
On 3/11/19 1:24 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/10/2019 6:38 PM, wrote: On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 4:48:00 PM UTC+1, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 11:22:10 AM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/10/2019 11:07 AM, wrote: On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 2:34:24 PM UTC+1, wrote: I keep reading see all the bikes coming out and basically all disc brakes. I cannot believe rim brakes are going to be gone but maybe I am just kidding myself. I frankly hate the disc brake look and certainly for a long time parts will be around but are these rim brakes a dead deal. Deacon Mark Try to find a ATB without disc brakes. I think that is also gonna happen with road bikes. Fashion is weird and powerful. -- - Frank Krygowski A few years ago I nearly bought a new disc brake equipped MTB when my buddy bought his Da Vinci disc brake equipped MTB. However, after having seen how his bike ate disc brake pads I decide not to replace my old MTB after all. I wonder how the cost of replacement disc brake pads over a number of years compares to the cost of a new rim over those same number of years? I've never worn out an MTB rim but my buddy was going thorough a pair of disc brake pads every week or so and that was just from riding or paved roads or crushed limestone stone dust rail-trails. He was NOT using the brakes all that much either. Three bicycle shops here in town could not figure out why his bike ate pads so fast and that includesÂ* the shop that specializes in cyclo-cross and MTB trails and has a cyclo-cross team. Just weird. Rim brakes are fine for a lot of bicyclists yet it seems that once again a choice will eventually be denied to consumers. On top of that, if your present bicycle is equipped with racks you'll most likely have to buy new ones that are disc brake compatible if you do buy a new bike. Those new racks aren't that cheap either. Cheers That is an unusual wear of pads. I've said this before, but if you're heading out on a long tour with a disc brake bike, take extra pads. We hosted a guy whose pads suddenly wore out during a tour, leaving him without brakes until he could find a bike shop on his route. I'm wearing out discs (every 4 years) faster than pads. What am I doing wrong? I wore out three sets of pads in a number of weeks and they deformed the disks that it was causing accelerated wear. Groves had been burned into the disks. Now these were from 2008 but when I bought the bike it hasn't really been used at all. Perhaps materials have been changed but on my CX bike I have had to change pads in only 300 miles or so. Though there isn't any severe marking on the disks neither have I ridden it all that hard through rather extreme off-road. |
The death of rim brakes?
On 3/10/2019 8:46 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/10/2019 10:10 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Sun, 10 Mar 2019 20:21:40 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/10/2019 5:52 PM, wrote: On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 8:34:24 AM UTC-5, wrote: I keep reading see all the bikes coming out and basically all disc brakes. I cannot believe rim brakes are going to be gone but maybe I am just kidding myself. I frankly hate the disc brake look and certainly for a long time parts will be around but are these rim brakes a dead deal. Deacon Mark One of my issues is that I realize we will have rim brake bikes for awhile but I just hope to keep the nice looks and basic set up. If it is not broke don't fix the puppy. The one item I have never experience is the idea on a long descend you can blow a tube. In the flatlands that to me seems impossible. To blow a tube on a long descend does the speed have to be really fast like about 40mph or say at 25mph for a long time. The biggest descend I have done is about 7% grade total for about a mile and the last say 1/4 mile is got to 9%. I could easily feather the brakes to avoid heat but maybe my experience is really limited for true mountain riding. Can you just pull the brakes up pretty good to get to a speed that is comfortable. In my case this descend got me to about 43mph my top speed for sure. Had the it been longer I don't know long I could have continued before I got to damn scared. Long, long ago I read a technical article in some bike magazine. (There used to be real technical articles in bike magazines.) This one was about brake energy (or really, power in the engineering sense of work per unit time) and temperature rise during long descents. The article explained that the braking power depended on brake force and speed. For any given hill, you could always use the brakes to go super slow. Brake force will be high, but speed will be low and power will be low, leading to less temperature rise. Alternately, you could descend very fast, braking only lightly or not at all. Brake force will be low or zero. (There's also more aerodynamic cooling.) This too will lead to less temperature rise. The author claimed, using lots of calculations summarized in graphs, that the greatest temperature rise occurred by using the brakes to keep the speed about 30 mph or 50 kph. Trouble is, this is exactly the speed lots of cyclists choose for long descents. Any slower and they feel like slugs. Any faster and they get scared. I blew only one tire on a downhill, on the rear of our tandem, creeping down a short ( 1/10 mile) steep grade well over 10%. We just rode the bike to the bottomÂ* and I changed the tube. But I can see it would be a problem if the front tire blew. Phuket, Thailand has several extremely steep hills on the western side of the island, steep enough that it is difficult to push a bike up them. Out of curiosity I did push the bike up one and coasted down the eastern side. Having read all the hoopalla about the rims getting hot and tires blowing I stopped about half way down and felt the rims... they were, perhaps, a bit warmer than ambient temperature. But. As the east side of the hill is a series of "S" turns one can't just coast down the mountain but must slow down every hundred yards or so to make the next corner so my braking was a series of pretty hard brake applications followed by, perhaps, an equal period of coasting. I have since used that method when descending hills and an occasional check shows that the rims do not get excessively hot. Omega and others make temperature indicator dots. They turn black and stay black when their rated temperature is reached. https://www.omega.com/pptst/TL-C5_LABELS.html They're single use products. Back when Jobst was with us, there was talk of sticking these on some rims and doing tests, but I don't recall if anyone actually did that, or what the results were. Yes, there were tests, I was a test subject. It was in about 1984. I can't remember for certain, but my guess is the test was sponsored by Buycycling magazine. I got sent the stick-on temperature indicators. They were rectangular and had multiple, labeled temp. "windows". When you reached the indicated temp, the window went (permanently) dark. At some point I'm sure you sent in results, but I really can't recall that part. I'll look in my shop to see if any of the rims (and stickers) are still around, but I doubt it. In those days we were running 36 spoke rims and 25mm (mis-labeled 1-1/8) Specialized Turbos, and rear rims lasted mostly a year or two, mostly dying of spoke-hole cracks, and sometimes of pothole-induced flat spots. Oh to be young and greyhound thin again! Mark J. |
The death of rim brakes?
On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 10:36:06 AM UTC-7, Mark J. wrote:
On 3/10/2019 8:46 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/10/2019 10:10 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Sun, 10 Mar 2019 20:21:40 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/10/2019 5:52 PM, wrote: On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 8:34:24 AM UTC-5, wrote: I keep reading see all the bikes coming out and basically all disc brakes. I cannot believe rim brakes are going to be gone but maybe I am just kidding myself. I frankly hate the disc brake look and certainly for a long time parts will be around but are these rim brakes a dead deal. Deacon Mark One of my issues is that I realize we will have rim brake bikes for awhile but I just hope to keep the nice looks and basic set up. If it is not broke don't fix the puppy. The one item I have never experience is the idea on a long descend you can blow a tube. In the flatlands that to me seems impossible. To blow a tube on a long descend does the speed have to be really fast like about 40mph or say at 25mph for a long time. The biggest descend I have done is about 7% grade total for about a mile and the last say 1/4 mile is got to 9%. I could easily feather the brakes to avoid heat but maybe my experience is really limited for true mountain riding. Can you just pull the brakes up pretty good to get to a speed that is comfortable. In my case this descend got me to about 43mph my top speed for sure. Had the it been longer I don't know long I could have continued before I got to damn scared. Long, long ago I read a technical article in some bike magazine. (There used to be real technical articles in bike magazines.) This one was about brake energy (or really, power in the engineering sense of work per unit time) and temperature rise during long descents. The article explained that the braking power depended on brake force and speed. For any given hill, you could always use the brakes to go super slow. Brake force will be high, but speed will be low and power will be low, leading to less temperature rise. Alternately, you could descend very fast, braking only lightly or not at all. Brake force will be low or zero. (There's also more aerodynamic cooling.) This too will lead to less temperature rise. The author claimed, using lots of calculations summarized in graphs, that the greatest temperature rise occurred by using the brakes to keep the speed about 30 mph or 50 kph. Trouble is, this is exactly the speed lots of cyclists choose for long descents. Any slower and they feel like slugs. Any faster and they get scared. I blew only one tire on a downhill, on the rear of our tandem, creeping down a short ( 1/10 mile) steep grade well over 10%. We just rode the bike to the bottomÂ* and I changed the tube. But I can see it would be a problem if the front tire blew. Phuket, Thailand has several extremely steep hills on the western side of the island, steep enough that it is difficult to push a bike up them. Out of curiosity I did push the bike up one and coasted down the eastern side. Having read all the hoopalla about the rims getting hot and tires blowing I stopped about half way down and felt the rims... they were, perhaps, a bit warmer than ambient temperature. But. As the east side of the hill is a series of "S" turns one can't just coast down the mountain but must slow down every hundred yards or so to make the next corner so my braking was a series of pretty hard brake applications followed by, perhaps, an equal period of coasting. I have since used that method when descending hills and an occasional check shows that the rims do not get excessively hot. Omega and others make temperature indicator dots. They turn black and stay black when their rated temperature is reached. https://www.omega.com/pptst/TL-C5_LABELS.html They're single use products. Back when Jobst was with us, there was talk of sticking these on some rims and doing tests, but I don't recall if anyone actually did that, or what the results were. Yes, there were tests, I was a test subject. It was in about 1984. I can't remember for certain, but my guess is the test was sponsored by Buycycling magazine. I got sent the stick-on temperature indicators. They were rectangular and had multiple, labeled temp. "windows". When you reached the indicated temp, the window went (permanently) dark. At some point I'm sure you sent in results, but I really can't recall that part. I'll look in my shop to see if any of the rims (and stickers) are still around, but I doubt it. In those days we were running 36 spoke rims and 25mm (mis-labeled 1-1/8) Specialized Turbos, and rear rims lasted mostly a year or two, mostly dying of spoke-hole cracks, and sometimes of pothole-induced flat spots. Oh to be young and greyhound thin again! I don't think the selling point for discs is that they prevent your tires from exploding. There has never been a tire-exploding epidemic from over-heating. Like Frank, I blew one tire on a tandem front descending Rocky Point on a hot day. The wet version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NPqQptjbF0 My wife was on the back yelling at me to slow down, so I complied. This was on a tandem with cantis and no drum or disk brake -- and the rims did get very hot. Discs get super hot on tandems and thus the mega giant 203mm rotors. Tandems are a special case. Brake fade is a problem with all brakes -- and discs probably get less fade than rim brakes, so heating matters, but the likelihood of blowing a tire off the rim due to over-heating on a road single is pretty remote and not why one would or should buy discs. That's not even something I hear from zealous sales people. The usual pitch is better modulation and stopping in wet weather. Rim heating was an issue in the tubular days because it didn't take tire-popping heat to soften tubular cement. Having squirming tubulars on a long descent was not uncommon, particularly in hot climates. It was one of the selling points of the new crop of light clinchers in the mid to late '70s. I think discs would be an easy sale to the mountain-climbing clydesdales using CF rims and tubulars. -- Jay Beattie. |
The death of rim brakes?
On 3/11/2019 3:30 PM, jbeattie wrote:
I think discs would be an easy sale to the mountain-climbing clydesdales using CF rims and tubulars. That's true and very reasonable. But you're never going to save the bicycling industry with that kind of reasonable talk! -- - Frank Krygowski |
The death of rim brakes?
On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 9:34:24 AM UTC-4, wrote:
I keep reading see all the bikes coming out and basically all disc brakes.. I cannot believe rim brakes are going to be gone but maybe I am just kidding myself. I frankly hate the disc brake look and certainly for a long time parts will be around but are these rim brakes a dead deal. Deacon Mark I wouldn't say they are dead, but I can certainly understand how one could interpret that trend. As lou mentioned, they are pretty much on life support for MTBs. Yes, brake parts are available, but you won'd find anything except for walmart special MTBs with rim brakes. I'd say you'll still see rim brakes on road bikes for some time to come, but it probably won't be long before you see some manufacturers making nothing but disc brake road bikes. As of now, very few manufacturers are making rim brake CX bikes, and cannondale has gone so far as to replace the rear brake bridge with a "rear fender mounting bridge" on their CAADX. I don't think you'll have much of a problem buying rim brake road wheels for quite a while though. |
The death of rim brakes?
On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 8:24:18 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/10/2019 6:38 PM, wrote: On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 4:48:00 PM UTC+1, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 11:22:10 AM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/10/2019 11:07 AM, wrote: On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 2:34:24 PM UTC+1, wrote: I keep reading see all the bikes coming out and basically all disc brakes. I cannot believe rim brakes are going to be gone but maybe I am just kidding myself. I frankly hate the disc brake look and certainly for a long time parts will be around but are these rim brakes a dead deal. Deacon Mark Try to find a ATB without disc brakes. I think that is also gonna happen with road bikes. Fashion is weird and powerful. -- - Frank Krygowski A few years ago I nearly bought a new disc brake equipped MTB when my buddy bought his Da Vinci disc brake equipped MTB. However, after having seen how his bike ate disc brake pads I decide not to replace my old MTB after all. I wonder how the cost of replacement disc brake pads over a number of years compares to the cost of a new rim over those same number of years? I've never worn out an MTB rim but my buddy was going thorough a pair of disc brake pads every week or so and that was just from riding or paved roads or crushed limestone stone dust rail-trails. He was NOT using the brakes all that much either. Three bicycle shops here in town could not figure out why his bike ate pads so fast and that includes the shop that specializes in cyclo-cross and MTB trails and has a cyclo-cross team. Just weird. Rim brakes are fine for a lot of bicyclists yet it seems that once again a choice will eventually be denied to consumers. On top of that, if your present bicycle is equipped with racks you'll most likely have to buy new ones that are disc brake compatible if you do buy a new bike. Those new racks aren't that cheap either. Cheers That is an unusual wear of pads. I've said this before, but if you're heading out on a long tour with a disc brake bike, take extra pads. We hosted a guy whose pads suddenly wore out during a tour, leaving him without brakes until he could find a bike shop on his route. -- - Frank Krygowski Many years ago a friend of mine ate through a new set of canti pads on a particularly wet and muddy vermont 50 - a 50 mile mountain bike race. He was quite literally metal on metal by the time he got across the line. |
The death of rim brakes?
On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 3:30:23 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 10:36:06 AM UTC-7, Mark J. wrote: On 3/10/2019 8:46 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/10/2019 10:10 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Sun, 10 Mar 2019 20:21:40 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/10/2019 5:52 PM, wrote: On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 8:34:24 AM UTC-5, wrote: I keep reading see all the bikes coming out and basically all disc brakes. I cannot believe rim brakes are going to be gone but maybe I am just kidding myself. I frankly hate the disc brake look and certainly for a long time parts will be around but are these rim brakes a dead deal. Deacon Mark One of my issues is that I realize we will have rim brake bikes for awhile but I just hope to keep the nice looks and basic set up. If it is not broke don't fix the puppy. The one item I have never experience is the idea on a long descend you can blow a tube. In the flatlands that to me seems impossible. To blow a tube on a long descend does the speed have to be really fast like about 40mph or say at 25mph for a long time. The biggest descend I have done is about 7% grade total for about a mile and the last say 1/4 mile is got to 9%. I could easily feather the brakes to avoid heat but maybe my experience is really limited for true mountain riding. Can you just pull the brakes up pretty good to get to a speed that is comfortable. In my case this descend got me to about 43mph my top speed for sure. Had the it been longer I don't know long I could have continued before I got to damn scared. Long, long ago I read a technical article in some bike magazine. (There used to be real technical articles in bike magazines.) This one was about brake energy (or really, power in the engineering sense of work per unit time) and temperature rise during long descents. The article explained that the braking power depended on brake force and speed. For any given hill, you could always use the brakes to go super slow. Brake force will be high, but speed will be low and power will be low, leading to less temperature rise. Alternately, you could descend very fast, braking only lightly or not at all. Brake force will be low or zero. (There's also more aerodynamic cooling.) This too will lead to less temperature rise. The author claimed, using lots of calculations summarized in graphs, that the greatest temperature rise occurred by using the brakes to keep the speed about 30 mph or 50 kph. Trouble is, this is exactly the speed lots of cyclists choose for long descents. Any slower and they feel like slugs. Any faster and they get scared. I blew only one tire on a downhill, on the rear of our tandem, creeping down a short ( 1/10 mile) steep grade well over 10%. We just rode the bike to the bottomÂ* and I changed the tube. But I can see it would be a problem if the front tire blew. Phuket, Thailand has several extremely steep hills on the western side of the island, steep enough that it is difficult to push a bike up them. Out of curiosity I did push the bike up one and coasted down the eastern side. Having read all the hoopalla about the rims getting hot and tires blowing I stopped about half way down and felt the rims... they were, perhaps, a bit warmer than ambient temperature. But. As the east side of the hill is a series of "S" turns one can't just coast down the mountain but must slow down every hundred yards or so to make the next corner so my braking was a series of pretty hard brake applications followed by, perhaps, an equal period of coasting.. I have since used that method when descending hills and an occasional check shows that the rims do not get excessively hot. Omega and others make temperature indicator dots. They turn black and stay black when their rated temperature is reached. https://www.omega.com/pptst/TL-C5_LABELS.html They're single use products. Back when Jobst was with us, there was talk of sticking these on some rims and doing tests, but I don't recall if anyone actually did that, or what the results were. Yes, there were tests, I was a test subject. It was in about 1984. I can't remember for certain, but my guess is the test was sponsored by Buycycling magazine. I got sent the stick-on temperature indicators. They were rectangular and had multiple, labeled temp. "windows". When you reached the indicated temp, the window went (permanently) dark. At some point I'm sure you sent in results, but I really can't recall that part. I'll look in my shop to see if any of the rims (and stickers) are still around, but I doubt it. In those days we were running 36 spoke rims and 25mm (mis-labeled 1-1/8) Specialized Turbos, and rear rims lasted mostly a year or two, mostly dying of spoke-hole cracks, and sometimes of pothole-induced flat spots. Oh to be young and greyhound thin again! I don't think the selling point for discs is that they prevent your tires from exploding. There has never been a tire-exploding epidemic from over-heating. Like Frank, I blew one tire on a tandem front descending Rocky Point on a hot day. The wet version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NPqQptjbF0 My wife was on the back yelling at me to slow down, so I complied. This was on a tandem with cantis and no drum or disk brake -- and the rims did get very hot. Discs get super hot on tandems and thus the mega giant 203mm rotors. Tandems are a special case. Brake fade is a problem with all brakes -- and discs probably get less fade than rim brakes, so heating matters, but the likelihood of blowing a tire off the rim due to over-heating on a road single is pretty remote and not why one would or should buy discs. That's not even something I hear from zealous sales people. The usual pitch is better modulation and stopping in wet weather. Rim heating was an issue in the tubular days because it didn't take tire-popping heat to soften tubular cement. Having squirming tubulars on a long descent was not uncommon, particularly in hot climates. It was one of the selling points of the new crop of light clinchers in the mid to late '70s. I think discs would be an easy sale to the mountain-climbing clydesdales using CF rims and tubulars. I've never blown a tire from heat, but I did get hit on the back of the thigh with a small dot of hot glue going down flagstaff road in boulder once. |
The death of rim brakes?
On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 3:40:09 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/11/2019 3:30 PM, jbeattie wrote: I think discs would be an easy sale to the mountain-climbing clydesdales using CF rims and tubulars. That's true and very reasonable. But you're never going to save the bicycling industry with that kind of reasonable talk! -- - Frank Krygowski Remember back in the days when MTB and touring bicycles cantilevers stuck straight out from the mounting post? IIRC it was Minoura that made a rear rack with a metal hoop that fitted over the cantilever so that saddle bags wouldn't hold the cantilever against the rim. At that time a b icycle with disc brakes would have been very attractive id buyng a new bike. I also remember reading about disc brakes that one has to be very creful when removing a wheel shortly after using the brakes as the parts can fuse together if the brake lever is accidentally squeezed. I do see a number of MTB in Canadian Tire stores coming with disc brakes now. I wonder what quality those brake parts are? If interested here's a link to CT NTB bikes. https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/sport...ain-bikes.html Cheers |
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