The death of rim brakes?
On Thu, 14 Mar 2019 17:13:37 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote: On 3/14/2019 4:39 PM, James wrote: On 14/3/19 3:54 pm, John B. Slocomb wrote: I read something to that effect the other day. Some sort of environmentalist site I think. I wonder what the tree huggers do when a cougar eats their pet dog :-) I think that is acceptable because ... nature. I'm not against environmental issues at all, just those who propose some "solution" without any thought at all. People that protest fox hunting while eating a McDonalds hamburger, for instance :-) There was something similar I read a little while back, about a Queensland politician who was photographed next to a pile of dead feral pigs.* Apparently it is an annual event, to go shoot a heap of feral pigs, where he is from.* Some city greens got all up tight about it and proposed that the pigs should be rounded up and sent to a pasture of their own somewhere.* I think they were being serious.* Made it all the more laughable. Around here it's the extreme White Tailed Deer population. They are harming many other species in the forests by eating the entire understory. There are people who want to give them contraceptives instead of shooting them. I read somewhere that the population of white tailed deer in New Hampshire is actually higher today than it was in the late 1600's when the Pale Faces arrived. As for the use of contraceptives, think of the mental anguish of the poor female deer who cannot conceive. -- Cheers, John B. |
The death of rim brakes?
On Thu, 14 Mar 2019 16:22:10 -0500, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/14/2019 3:39 PM, James wrote: On 14/3/19 3:54 pm, John B. Slocomb wrote: I read something to that effect the other day. Some sort of environmentalist site I think. I wonder what the tree huggers do when a cougar eats their pet dog :-) I think that is acceptable because ... nature. I'm not against environmental issues at all, just those who propose some "solution" without any thought at all. People that protest fox hunting while eating a McDonalds hamburger, for instance :-) There was something similar I read a little while back, about a Queensland politician who was photographed next to a pile of dead feral pigs. Apparently it is an annual event, to go shoot a heap of feral pigs, where he is from. Some city greens got all up tight about it and proposed that the pigs should be rounded up and sent to a pasture of their own somewhere. I think they were being serious. Made it all the more laughable. This is why we can't have satire now. Our government in its wisdom is airdropping immigrant (Canadian) wolves into Isle Royale National Park to decrease the overpopulated elk/moose. Suggestions for a high-ticket hunt were rejected despite great interest. Being eaten alive by wolves is so much more humane... Doesn't one require a sleigh and a troika for that? -- Cheers, John B. |
The death of rim brakes?
On 15/3/19 10:11 am, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 14 Mar 2019 17:13:37 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/14/2019 4:39 PM, James wrote: On 14/3/19 3:54 pm, John B. Slocomb wrote: I read something to that effect the other day. Some sort of environmentalist site I think. I wonder what the tree huggers do when a cougar eats their pet dog :-) I think that is acceptable because ... nature. I'm not against environmental issues at all, just those who propose some "solution" without any thought at all. People that protest fox hunting while eating a McDonalds hamburger, for instance :-) There was something similar I read a little while back, about a Queensland politician who was photographed next to a pile of dead feral pigs.Â* Apparently it is an annual event, to go shoot a heap of feral pigs, where he is from.Â* Some city greens got all up tight about it and proposed that the pigs should be rounded up and sent to a pasture of their own somewhere.Â* I think they were being serious.Â* Made it all the more laughable. Around here it's the extreme White Tailed Deer population. They are harming many other species in the forests by eating the entire understory. There are people who want to give them contraceptives instead of shooting them. I read somewhere that the population of white tailed deer in New Hampshire is actually higher today than it was in the late 1600's when the Pale Faces arrived. As for the use of contraceptives, think of the mental anguish of the poor female deer who cannot conceive. The male deer might be in terrible distress thinking he's firing blanks! -- JS |
The death of rim brakes?
On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 11:27:14 +1100, James
wrote: On 15/3/19 10:11 am, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Thu, 14 Mar 2019 17:13:37 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/14/2019 4:39 PM, James wrote: On 14/3/19 3:54 pm, John B. Slocomb wrote: I read something to that effect the other day. Some sort of environmentalist site I think. I wonder what the tree huggers do when a cougar eats their pet dog :-) I think that is acceptable because ... nature. I'm not against environmental issues at all, just those who propose some "solution" without any thought at all. People that protest fox hunting while eating a McDonalds hamburger, for instance :-) There was something similar I read a little while back, about a Queensland politician who was photographed next to a pile of dead feral pigs.* Apparently it is an annual event, to go shoot a heap of feral pigs, where he is from.* Some city greens got all up tight about it and proposed that the pigs should be rounded up and sent to a pasture of their own somewhere.* I think they were being serious.* Made it all the more laughable. Around here it's the extreme White Tailed Deer population. They are harming many other species in the forests by eating the entire understory. There are people who want to give them contraceptives instead of shooting them. I read somewhere that the population of white tailed deer in New Hampshire is actually higher today than it was in the late 1600's when the Pale Faces arrived. As for the use of contraceptives, think of the mental anguish of the poor female deer who cannot conceive. The male deer might be in terrible distress thinking he's firing blanks! I'm not sure but I suspect that the Buck's attitude is " jump it and run" as I believe that the white tailed deer female is only receptive for a 24 hour period every year and a fellow needs to be fast on his feet :-) -- Cheers, John B. |
The death of rim brakes?
On Thursday, March 14, 2019 at 7:07:22 PM UTC-4, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 07:39:01 +1100, James wrote: On 14/3/19 3:54 pm, John B. Slocomb wrote: I read something to that effect the other day. Some sort of environmentalist site I think. I wonder what the tree huggers do when a cougar eats their pet dog :-) I think that is acceptable because ... nature. I'm not against environmental issues at all, just those who propose some "solution" without any thought at all. People that protest fox hunting while eating a McDonalds hamburger, for instance :-) There was something similar I read a little while back, about a Queensland politician who was photographed next to a pile of dead feral pigs. Apparently it is an annual event, to go shoot a heap of feral pigs, where he is from. Some city greens got all up tight about it and proposed that the pigs should be rounded up and sent to a pasture of their own somewhere. I think they were being serious. Made it all the more laughable. My usual argument for the more obnoxious Environmental is to ask something like "Oh! Will you take a pair of wild pigs at your house". Their usual response, "Oh! The government's got to do that" to which I reply, "Are you willing to pay more in taxes to take care of the pigs?" The point is that most, if not all, of the devoted are not willing to actually do anything about what they are ranting and waving their arms about. -- Cheers, John B. I just love the environmentalists and animal lovers. Some of them re absolutely clueless. Many years ago I rescued and raised to racoon kits*. One of them used to climb up on me and wrap himself around my neck and go to sleep. He liked children and because of that I'd often take him to a nearby school to do a presentation with the children there. One cool day I was walking to the school and the racoon was wrapped around my neck and dozing. Some woman came up to me and started to berate me for having a dead racoon fur just to keep my neck warm. then she tried to grab the racoon fur and abscond with it. I still chuckle today when I recall the look on her face when the racoon hissed at her and her response, "Oh my God it's alive!" I told her not to be so hasty to judge things. Cheers * When I found the two racoon kits it was clear they were abandoned. Unfortunately I could not interest any of the animal welfare groups in our area to look after them and thus I was the one who raised them. |
The death of rim brakes?
On Thursday, March 14, 2019 at 3:58:47 PM UTC-7, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 14 Mar 2019 10:07:53 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Thursday, March 14, 2019 at 12:59:35 PM UTC-4, Mark J. wrote: On 3/13/2019 4:36 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Wed, 13 Mar 2019 16:07:48 -0700, "Mark J." wrote: On 3/13/2019 3:40 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Wed, 13 Mar 2019 13:54:18 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Wednesday, March 13, 2019 at 3:17:05 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote: Snipped I don't get the obsession of reusing spokes. If that turns you on, fine. IMHO 'best rim for this rider/usage' can be severely limited by adding 'within poorly supported ERD'. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 I don't think it's an obsession to use the old spokes. I think it's because many of us just like to tape the new rim to the old rim and then move the spokes to the new rim without having to unlace t he old wheel. Plus it saves a fair bit of money. Where I am shops cut spokes to length and t hen thread them. My understanding is that those cut threads make a weaker spoke than do spokes with rolled threads. I have a couple of extra wheels here that have tubular rims on t hem but the hubs and spokes are in excellent condition. If I could get a clincher rim to match the tubular rim so I could use the old spokes by taping the new rim to the old and transferring the spokes to the new rim I would. YMMV Cheers I see 14 gauge spokes with nipples listed on Amazon for $0.10 each in lots of 36. Please point me there! The lowest I can find on Amazon are ~$0.27 (US) each. I looked on Ebay and couldn't get anywhere near that price point. If they look reliable I'll use them to build wheels at a local non-profit / pro-bono community bike shop. Mark J. I couldn't find the site I originally quoted :-( But there were a number of sites offering spokes in sets of 36 for $10.00 or less. Given that the TREK bikes I see listed range from $11,799, with disc's, to $849, with conventional brakes, a measly ten bucks is chicken feed. For high-end Treks, sure. For functional recycled utility bikes that will be sold on a sliding scale or given away, not so much. The shop is sitting on a bunch of new donated rims, and it harvests hubs, many decent ones, from otherwise dead donated wheels. My goal is to turn those resources into working wheels through donated labor. Put it all together, and it's marginally competitive with complete wholesale wheels due to the cost of spokes. (And it's a fair question whether wheel building is an efficient use of donated skilled time.) My conjecture is that the rise of the boxed-wheels market has raised the price of spokes dramatically, as spokes' drop in wholesale/retail volume requires a much higher price to be worth stocking. I remember getting basic but name-brand spokes for 20 cents each, now it's closer to a dollar. Andy M., did I guess right about the market? Mark J. Where I am the bicycle shops don't stock different lengths of spokes. They cut and thread spokes to the length you want. Those spokes are a little over a dollar a piece Canadian. SO a 36 spoke wheel is at least $36.00 for new spokes. Add in the cost of a new rim and you can get a reasonable quality Alex rim wheel. That further lessens the demand for spokes. It's a vicious downward spiral. Cheers Two or three years ago I popped a couple of spokes in my rear wheel and didn't have any new spokes so went down to my local bike shop and bought a set of brand new Shimano wheels. For which I paid something like $50. I'm still using the wheels today and they still run true. Why in the world would anyone want to go to all the trouble of building a set of wheels :-) It doesn't pay if you're building a cheap wheel and don't own the parts. It pays if you own the parts and only need to replace a rim -- and it can really pay if you're building an expensive set of wheels. You can build a 28s wheel on, say, DT240s with a nice rim like a H Plus Son Hydra/HED Belgium and end up with something as nice as a HED Ardennes disc for half the price and maybe even less weight. Knock yourself out -- go with a CF rim. And it will be user serviceable using conventional parts -- no Zicral $5 spokes and threaded rim sockets. You can easily (or pretty easily) build a wheel that is light and durable as an expensive name brand. And if you don't build, even getting the local Bohemian wheel builder to do it isn't that expensive. Enve wheels, for example, are just Enve rims on nice hubs with good spokes. Our local wheelbuilder, Sugar, builds essentially the same wheel for slightly less. https://sugarwheelworks.com/ Now, if the Enve goes on sale, the price gap goes the other way -- but at least you supported a local business and some nice folks. -- Jay Beattie |
The death of rim brakes?
On 3/14/2019 5:58 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 14 Mar 2019 10:07:53 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Thursday, March 14, 2019 at 12:59:35 PM UTC-4, Mark J. wrote: On 3/13/2019 4:36 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Wed, 13 Mar 2019 16:07:48 -0700, "Mark J." wrote: On 3/13/2019 3:40 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Wed, 13 Mar 2019 13:54:18 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Wednesday, March 13, 2019 at 3:17:05 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote: Snipped I don't get the obsession of reusing spokes. If that turns you on, fine. IMHO 'best rim for this rider/usage' can be severely limited by adding 'within poorly supported ERD'. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 I don't think it's an obsession to use the old spokes. I think it's because many of us just like to tape the new rim to the old rim and then move the spokes to the new rim without having to unlace t he old wheel. Plus it saves a fair bit of money. Where I am shops cut spokes to length and t hen thread them. My understanding is that those cut threads make a weaker spoke than do spokes with rolled threads. I have a couple of extra wheels here that have tubular rims on t hem but the hubs and spokes are in excellent condition. If I could get a clincher rim to match the tubular rim so I could use the old spokes by taping the new rim to the old and transferring the spokes to the new rim I would. YMMV Cheers I see 14 gauge spokes with nipples listed on Amazon for $0.10 each in lots of 36. Please point me there! The lowest I can find on Amazon are ~$0.27 (US) each. I looked on Ebay and couldn't get anywhere near that price point. If they look reliable I'll use them to build wheels at a local non-profit / pro-bono community bike shop. Mark J. I couldn't find the site I originally quoted :-( But there were a number of sites offering spokes in sets of 36 for $10.00 or less. Given that the TREK bikes I see listed range from $11,799, with disc's, to $849, with conventional brakes, a measly ten bucks is chicken feed. For high-end Treks, sure. For functional recycled utility bikes that will be sold on a sliding scale or given away, not so much. The shop is sitting on a bunch of new donated rims, and it harvests hubs, many decent ones, from otherwise dead donated wheels. My goal is to turn those resources into working wheels through donated labor. Put it all together, and it's marginally competitive with complete wholesale wheels due to the cost of spokes. (And it's a fair question whether wheel building is an efficient use of donated skilled time.) My conjecture is that the rise of the boxed-wheels market has raised the price of spokes dramatically, as spokes' drop in wholesale/retail volume requires a much higher price to be worth stocking. I remember getting basic but name-brand spokes for 20 cents each, now it's closer to a dollar. Andy M., did I guess right about the market? Mark J. Where I am the bicycle shops don't stock different lengths of spokes. They cut and thread spokes to the length you want. Those spokes are a little over a dollar a piece Canadian. SO a 36 spoke wheel is at least $36.00 for new spokes. Add in the cost of a new rim and you can get a reasonable quality Alex rim wheel. That further lessens the demand for spokes. It's a vicious downward spiral. Cheers Two or three years ago I popped a couple of spokes in my rear wheel and didn't have any new spokes so went down to my local bike shop and bought a set of brand new Shimano wheels. For which I paid something like $50. I'm still using the wheels today and they still run true. Why in the world would anyone want to go to all the trouble of building a set of wheels :-) Shimano are grey/black. 'nuff said! http://www.yellowjersey.org/fixrrec.jpg -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
The death of rim brakes?
On 15/3/19 2:17 am, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/13/2019 6:32 PM, Joerg wrote: On 2019-03-12 11:13, AMuzi wrote: How many new bicycles have drum brakes? Vanishingly few. This was just meant as an example. Bicycles have largely remained in the stone age, like chuck wagons where a chunk of wood pressed against the steel ring of the wheels to brake. So bicycles kind of skipped a technology. Bikes didn't skip drum brake technology because bikes are primitive. Only a very few bikes adopted drum brakes because that technology wasn't optimum for bikes. It's simplistic at best to pretend what's best for one application is best for all applications. Every design choice comes with benefits and detriments, and those are not the same for a 4000 pound car as for a 20 pound bike. Bicycle rim brakes have worked fine for over 99.999% users for the past 100+ years. When mountain bikes came into fashion, some off-roaders found a different set of benefits vs. detriments, and discs made sense for them. But then fashion and marketing took over, pushing discs toward road bikes. Yes, we'll get a few testimonials here claiming discs are "better." We get very few details on benefits vs. detriments. For a while, the trend for road bikes was very narrow tyres pumped up to very high pressure. 18 mm of tyre is pretty skinny. Gradually the tyre width had become standard at 23 mm for road bikes. Now there is an emerging trend to ride wider tyres, with some claiming much wider tyres are not only as fast but faster! I suspect there is a diminishing return with wind resistance. Now I use a 25 mm rear tyre (that measures 27 mm), and to remove the wheel I must release the brake lever (Campagnolo) or deflate the tyre. With a 23 mm tyre I don't need to do that. With a disc brake I don't need to fiddle with the brakes regardless of tyre width. That's a benefit. In fact sometimes when you go to shove a wheel in with rim brakes and centre or dual pivot callipers, you can catch the calliper and move it from centred. Then you have to fix that or have rubbing brakes. That doesn't happen with discs. It is possible with hydraulic disc callipers to squeeze the brake lever while the wheel is out, and then have trouble moving the pads apart again to insert the wheel. That's a detriment, but doesn't affect cable actuated disc brake callipers. Hydraulic disc callipers are self adjusting like car hydraulic disc callipers. Cable actuated disc callipers are not. Benefit and detriment. Hydraulic disc systems sometimes need bleeding. This requires either a visit to a shop or a bit more kit ($30 - $50) for the home maintenance person. Detriment. Probably not good if you are out on a tour. Cables are probably more reliable. Cable operated discs work fine, and there are also cable/hydraulic systems, where the calliper is hydraulic and self adjusting, and actuated via a cable. Disc brake modulation is generally better. That is you can hold the point of not quite skidding more easily. Benefit. Disc brakes tend to work better in wet weather, or IOW, work the same regardless of wet weather. Rim brakes rarely work as well when the rims are wet. Rim brakes on carbon fibre rims has never been a happy marriage, but with disc brakes that problem is eliminated. Thus aerodynamic, strong, stiff, light weight rims are now easier to manufacture and use - made of carbon fibre. Rim brakes do erode rims. Disc brakes do not. I guess the disc rotor will wear out, but I'd rather replace a rotor than a rim. It seems to me that many people try disc brakes and find few drawbacks. That's just my opinion, unsubstantiated by statistics. Are rim brakes good enough? Sure! They have been for a long time. Are disc brakes better? Yes I think so. Not outstandingly, but better. I'm not about to have my road bike modified to take disc brakes, and I wouldn't let the choice of brakes on a new bike dictate what I bought. YMMV. -- JS |
The death of rim brakes?
On 3/14/2019 8:36 PM, James wrote:
On 15/3/19 2:17 am, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/13/2019 6:32 PM, Joerg wrote: On 2019-03-12 11:13, AMuzi wrote: How many new bicycles have drum brakes? Vanishingly few. This was just meant as an example. Bicycles have largely remained in the stone age, like chuck wagons where a chunk of wood pressed against the steel ring of the wheels to brake. So bicycles kind of skipped a technology. Bikes didn't skip drum brake technology because bikes are primitive. Only a very few bikes adopted drum brakes because that technology wasn't optimum for bikes. It's simplistic at best to pretend what's best for one application is best for all applications. Every design choice comes with benefits and detriments, and those are not the same for a 4000 pound car as for a 20 pound bike. Bicycle rim brakes have worked fine for over 99.999% users for the past 100+ years. When mountain bikes came into fashion, some off-roaders found a different set of benefits vs. detriments, and discs made sense for them. But then fashion and marketing took over, pushing discs toward road bikes. Yes, we'll get a few testimonials here claiming discs are "better." We get very few details on benefits vs. detriments. For a while, the trend for road bikes was very narrow tyres pumped up to very high pressure. 18 mm of tyre is pretty skinny. Gradually the tyre width had become standard at 23 mm for road bikes. Now there is an emerging trend to ride wider tyres, with some claiming much wider tyres are not only as fast but faster! I suspect there is a diminishing return with wind resistance. Now I use a 25 mm rear tyre (that measures 27 mm), and to remove the wheel I must release the brake lever (Campagnolo) or deflate the tyre. With a 23 mm tyre I don't need to do that. With a disc brake I don't need to fiddle with the brakes regardless of tyre width. That's a benefit. In fact sometimes when you go to shove a wheel in with rim brakes and centre or dual pivot callipers, you can catch the calliper and move it from centred. Then you have to fix that or have rubbing brakes. That doesn't happen with discs. It is possible with hydraulic disc callipers to squeeze the brake lever while the wheel is out, and then have trouble moving the pads apart again to insert the wheel. That's a detriment, but doesn't affect cable actuated disc brake callipers. Hydraulic disc callipers are self adjusting like car hydraulic disc callipers. Cable actuated disc callipers are not. Benefit and detriment. Hydraulic disc systems sometimes need bleeding. This requires either a visit to a shop or a bit more kit ($30 - $50) for the home maintenance person. Detriment. Probably not good if you are out on a tour. Cables are probably more reliable. Cable operated discs work fine, and there are also cable/hydraulic systems, where the calliper is hydraulic and self adjusting, and actuated via a cable. Disc brake modulation is generally better. That is you can hold the point of not quite skidding more easily. Benefit. Disc brakes tend to work better in wet weather, or IOW, work the same regardless of wet weather. Rim brakes rarely work as well when the rims are wet. Rim brakes on carbon fibre rims has never been a happy marriage, but with disc brakes that problem is eliminated. Thus aerodynamic, strong, stiff, light weight rims are now easier to manufacture and use - made of carbon fibre. Rim brakes do erode rims. Disc brakes do not. I guess the disc rotor will wear out, but I'd rather replace a rotor than a rim. It seems to me that many people try disc brakes and find few drawbacks. That's just my opinion, unsubstantiated by statistics. Are rim brakes good enough? Sure! They have been for a long time. Are disc brakes better? Yes I think so. Not outstandingly, but better. I'm not about to have my road bike modified to take disc brakes, and I wouldn't let the choice of brakes on a new bike dictate what I bought. YMMV. So a rear hydraulic disc is just as good as a fixed gear wheel (without the warped rotor thing). Check. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
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