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Handlebar rotation
I was looking at photos and you tube films of bicycle racing during the 70's and 80's and it seems that the handle bars were at a very different position then in more recent times. Example: Eddie Marckx time trial 1974, note the downward twist of the handle bars. with the brake levers mounted at almost the center of the "U" bend. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvJSB4gAq3o During a race in 1977 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEAlxGC4Kzg In 1987, still turned down https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwU7GXvbjlM In 1990 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eojc3AKSWGE in 1994 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtBetiDPPfg In 2001 what may be an intermediate position https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAqIVanqbuw In 2007 note how much flatter the bars are with the brake levers fixed almost as an extension of the top flat section of the bars. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbB2O0SmwJw I am wondering. From the revival of bicycle racing in 1946 until the very late 1990's or early 2000's, some 50 years, handle bar position amongst the top riders was very similar with the top of the bars turned down and the bottom "drops" nearly level and then it all changed with the top section of the bars level, or nearly so and the drops angled downward. What happened? Did bicycle geometry suddenly change. Did bicycles get better? Were handlebars suddenly a different shape? -- Cheers, John B. |
Handlebar rotation
On 2017-07-04 04:05, John B. wrote:
I was looking at photos and you tube films of bicycle racing during the 70's and 80's and it seems that the handle bars were at a very different position then in more recent times. Example: Eddie Marckx time trial 1974, note the downward twist of the handle bars. with the brake levers mounted at almost the center of the "U" bend. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvJSB4gAq3o During a race in 1977 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEAlxGC4Kzg In 1987, still turned down https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwU7GXvbjlM In 1990 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eojc3AKSWGE in 1994 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtBetiDPPfg In 2001 what may be an intermediate position https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAqIVanqbuw In 2007 note how much flatter the bars are with the brake levers fixed almost as an extension of the top flat section of the bars. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbB2O0SmwJw I am wondering. From the revival of bicycle racing in 1946 until the very late 1990's or early 2000's, some 50 years, handle bar position amongst the top riders was very similar with the top of the bars turned down and the bottom "drops" nearly level and then it all changed with the top section of the bars level, or nearly so and the drops angled downward. What happened? Did bicycle geometry suddenly change. Did bicycles get better? Were handlebars suddenly a different shape? Maybe riders complained of wrist pain? My bike from 1982 has the downward drop up top like in your older links. I can't ride it on the hoods for too long because then the wrists hurt from having to twist them too far. Especially on rough roads or dirt/gravel roads. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
Handlebar rotation
On 7/4/2017 4:05 AM, John B. wrote:
I was looking at photos and you tube films of bicycle racing during the 70's and 80's and it seems that the handle bars were at a very different position then in more recent times. Example: Eddie Marckx time trial 1974, note the downward twist of the handle bars. with the brake levers mounted at almost the center of the "U" bend. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvJSB4gAq3o During a race in 1977 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEAlxGC4Kzg In 1987, still turned down https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwU7GXvbjlM In 1990 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eojc3AKSWGE in 1994 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtBetiDPPfg In 2001 what may be an intermediate position https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAqIVanqbuw In 2007 note how much flatter the bars are with the brake levers fixed almost as an extension of the top flat section of the bars. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbB2O0SmwJw I am wondering. From the revival of bicycle racing in 1946 until the very late 1990's or early 2000's, some 50 years, handle bar position amongst the top riders was very similar with the top of the bars turned down and the bottom "drops" nearly level and then it all changed with the top section of the bars level, or nearly so and the drops angled downward. What happened? Did bicycle geometry suddenly change. Did bicycles get better? Were handlebars suddenly a different shape? Handlebar shapes definitely changed, though subtly. Compare a Cinelli "Giro d'Italia" or especially a "Campione del Mundo" bar from the 80's with a modern bar. Brake levers changed dramatically around 90-95 with the addition of shifters to the brake levers. I think their geometry tends to suit the later position you mention. Their use strongly encourages riding on top of the hoods, which (IMHO) is more comfortable when they "extend the top flat section of the bars." Perhaps separately, style changed (which may have been for legitimate mechanical/biomechanical reasons, but that's never been necessary for a change.) Mark J. |
Handlebar rotation
On Tue, 04 Jul 2017 07:52:14 -0700, Joerg
wrote: On 2017-07-04 04:05, John B. wrote: I was looking at photos and you tube films of bicycle racing during the 70's and 80's and it seems that the handle bars were at a very different position then in more recent times. Example: Eddie Marckx time trial 1974, note the downward twist of the handle bars. with the brake levers mounted at almost the center of the "U" bend. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvJSB4gAq3o During a race in 1977 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEAlxGC4Kzg In 1987, still turned down https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwU7GXvbjlM In 1990 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eojc3AKSWGE in 1994 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtBetiDPPfg In 2001 what may be an intermediate position https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAqIVanqbuw In 2007 note how much flatter the bars are with the brake levers fixed almost as an extension of the top flat section of the bars. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbB2O0SmwJw I am wondering. From the revival of bicycle racing in 1946 until the very late 1990's or early 2000's, some 50 years, handle bar position amongst the top riders was very similar with the top of the bars turned down and the bottom "drops" nearly level and then it all changed with the top section of the bars level, or nearly so and the drops angled downward. What happened? Did bicycle geometry suddenly change. Did bicycles get better? Were handlebars suddenly a different shape? Maybe riders complained of wrist pain? My bike from 1982 has the downward drop up top like in your older links. I can't ride it on the hoods for too long because then the wrists hurt from having to twist them too far. Especially on rough roads or dirt/gravel roads. But for almost fifty years, and maybe even longer (I didn't search for pre-WW II photos) top riders used essentially the same style of bars, and relatively suddenly they all seemed to have changed to a much flatter setup. Are bicycle riders somehow mentally deficient that it takes them 50 years to figure out why their wrists are getting sore? -- Cheers, John B. |
Handlebar rotation
On Tue, 4 Jul 2017 12:15:59 -0700, "Mark J."
wrote: On 7/4/2017 4:05 AM, John B. wrote: I was looking at photos and you tube films of bicycle racing during the 70's and 80's and it seems that the handle bars were at a very different position then in more recent times. Example: Eddie Marckx time trial 1974, note the downward twist of the handle bars. with the brake levers mounted at almost the center of the "U" bend. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvJSB4gAq3o During a race in 1977 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEAlxGC4Kzg In 1987, still turned down https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwU7GXvbjlM In 1990 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eojc3AKSWGE in 1994 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtBetiDPPfg In 2001 what may be an intermediate position https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAqIVanqbuw In 2007 note how much flatter the bars are with the brake levers fixed almost as an extension of the top flat section of the bars. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbB2O0SmwJw I am wondering. From the revival of bicycle racing in 1946 until the very late 1990's or early 2000's, some 50 years, handle bar position amongst the top riders was very similar with the top of the bars turned down and the bottom "drops" nearly level and then it all changed with the top section of the bars level, or nearly so and the drops angled downward. What happened? Did bicycle geometry suddenly change. Did bicycles get better? Were handlebars suddenly a different shape? Handlebar shapes definitely changed, though subtly. Compare a Cinelli "Giro d'Italia" or especially a "Campione del Mundo" bar from the 80's with a modern bar. Brake levers changed dramatically around 90-95 with the addition of shifters to the brake levers. I think their geometry tends to suit the later position you mention. Their use strongly encourages riding on top of the hoods, which (IMHO) is more comfortable when they "extend the top flat section of the bars." Perhaps separately, style changed (which may have been for legitimate mechanical/biomechanical reasons, but that's never been necessary for a change.) Mark J. I think that you may have hit the nail on the head, as it were. I hadn't thought that the change to flatter bars did coincide, at least to some extent, with the change to "brifters" which would be awkward to use with the old "bars twisted down" position. -- Cheers, John B. |
Handlebar rotation
On Tuesday, July 4, 2017 at 4:05:32 AM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
I was looking at photos and you tube films of bicycle racing during the 70's and 80's and it seems that the handle bars were at a very different position then in more recent times. Example: Eddie Marckx time trial 1974, note the downward twist of the handle bars. with the brake levers mounted at almost the center of the "U" bend. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvJSB4gAq3o During a race in 1977 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEAlxGC4Kzg In 1987, still turned down https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwU7GXvbjlM In 1990 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eojc3AKSWGE in 1994 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtBetiDPPfg In 2001 what may be an intermediate position https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAqIVanqbuw In 2007 note how much flatter the bars are with the brake levers fixed almost as an extension of the top flat section of the bars. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbB2O0SmwJw I am wondering. From the revival of bicycle racing in 1946 until the very late 1990's or early 2000's, some 50 years, handle bar position amongst the top riders was very similar with the top of the bars turned down and the bottom "drops" nearly level and then it all changed with the top section of the bars level, or nearly so and the drops angled downward. What happened? Did bicycle geometry suddenly change. Did bicycles get better? Were handlebars suddenly a different shape? I would think it would be clear what happened. Shimano introduced the brifters and they required the bar to be angled slightly differently in order to be in the proper position for the rider to be able to use them. |
Handlebar rotation
On 2017-07-04 16:33, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 04 Jul 2017 07:52:14 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2017-07-04 04:05, John B. wrote: I was looking at photos and you tube films of bicycle racing during the 70's and 80's and it seems that the handle bars were at a very different position then in more recent times. Example: Eddie Marckx time trial 1974, note the downward twist of the handle bars. with the brake levers mounted at almost the center of the "U" bend. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvJSB4gAq3o During a race in 1977 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEAlxGC4Kzg In 1987, still turned down https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwU7GXvbjlM In 1990 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eojc3AKSWGE in 1994 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtBetiDPPfg In 2001 what may be an intermediate position https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAqIVanqbuw In 2007 note how much flatter the bars are with the brake levers fixed almost as an extension of the top flat section of the bars. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbB2O0SmwJw I am wondering. From the revival of bicycle racing in 1946 until the very late 1990's or early 2000's, some 50 years, handle bar position amongst the top riders was very similar with the top of the bars turned down and the bottom "drops" nearly level and then it all changed with the top section of the bars level, or nearly so and the drops angled downward. What happened? Did bicycle geometry suddenly change. Did bicycles get better? Were handlebars suddenly a different shape? Maybe riders complained of wrist pain? My bike from 1982 has the downward drop up top like in your older links. I can't ride it on the hoods for too long because then the wrists hurt from having to twist them too far. Especially on rough roads or dirt/gravel roads. But for almost fifty years, and maybe even longer (I didn't search for pre-WW II photos) top riders used essentially the same style of bars, and relatively suddenly they all seemed to have changed to a much flatter setup. It can take a long time to notice adverse health effects. For example, computer mice were not very ergonomical until 10-15 years ago. And they still sell the old style. Probably the industry didn't react until enough people developed hardcore carpal tunnel problems. I switched to a trackball within my first year because I thought this can't be good. Are bicycle riders somehow mentally deficient that it takes them 50 years to figure out why their wrists are getting sore? Who knows :-) It took the bicycle industry a whopping 100 years and they still haven't figured out a good electrical system. Unless you build your own like I do. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
Handlebar rotation
On 2017-07-04 16:38, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 4 Jul 2017 12:15:59 -0700, "Mark J." wrote: On 7/4/2017 4:05 AM, John B. wrote: I was looking at photos and you tube films of bicycle racing during the 70's and 80's and it seems that the handle bars were at a very different position then in more recent times. Example: Eddie Marckx time trial 1974, note the downward twist of the handle bars. with the brake levers mounted at almost the center of the "U" bend. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvJSB4gAq3o During a race in 1977 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEAlxGC4Kzg In 1987, still turned down https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwU7GXvbjlM In 1990 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eojc3AKSWGE in 1994 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtBetiDPPfg In 2001 what may be an intermediate position https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAqIVanqbuw In 2007 note how much flatter the bars are with the brake levers fixed almost as an extension of the top flat section of the bars. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbB2O0SmwJw I am wondering. From the revival of bicycle racing in 1946 until the very late 1990's or early 2000's, some 50 years, handle bar position amongst the top riders was very similar with the top of the bars turned down and the bottom "drops" nearly level and then it all changed with the top section of the bars level, or nearly so and the drops angled downward. What happened? Did bicycle geometry suddenly change. Did bicycles get better? Were handlebars suddenly a different shape? Handlebar shapes definitely changed, though subtly. Compare a Cinelli "Giro d'Italia" or especially a "Campione del Mundo" bar from the 80's with a modern bar. Brake levers changed dramatically around 90-95 with the addition of shifters to the brake levers. I think their geometry tends to suit the later position you mention. Their use strongly encourages riding on top of the hoods, which (IMHO) is more comfortable when they "extend the top flat section of the bars." Perhaps separately, style changed (which may have been for legitimate mechanical/biomechanical reasons, but that's never been necessary for a change.) Mark J. I think that you may have hit the nail on the head, as it were. I hadn't thought that the change to flatter bars did coincide, at least to some extent, with the change to "brifters" which would be awkward to use with the old "bars twisted down" position. Though the rider in the 2001 video at, for example, 1:04 min seems to have classic downtube shifters. The bar is still slanted but the hoods are formed such that his hands rest flat like on new flatter bars. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAqIVanqbuw -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
Handlebar rotation
On Wednesday, July 5, 2017 at 7:08:01 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
It can take a long time to notice adverse health effects. For example, computer mice were not very ergonomical until 10-15 years ago. And they still sell the old style. Probably the industry didn't react until enough people developed hardcore carpal tunnel problems. On B52's the Bomb/Nav system would set the cross-hairs on the target with a "joy stick" which was shaped as the name would imply. You could set the cross hairs on the target and hold them there and the bombing computer would automatically compensate for wind and the effects it was having on the aircraft. When I designed a robotic chemical placement mechanism with a computer interface I designed a joystick into it. The mechanical engineer constructed this as a light weight plastic structure. The end result was that you had to hold the base of the joystick in one hand while setting the cross-hairs on each vial to be moved from point A to point B. This was pretty clumsy so Dr. Michael McCown removed the top of the mechanism so that the gears that moved the variable resisters were showing. He tipped this upside down and would use it just like a mouse. At this time there were no mice. Not a long time after than mice showed up on the scene. I don't know if it was my and Dr. McCown's cooperation improved or if someone else came up with that independently but I do know that Dr.. McCown most certainly was the first to be using a mouse-like mechanism. |
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