Moving Cleats Forward, now what.
 

After some back of the knee and hamstring pain I have decided to move
my cleats forward. My setback has my seat all the way forward on its
rails, and my seat height is as low as it can go without bothering the
front of my knees. Question is, if the cleats are moved forward, this
would put me ahead of KOPS. Should I make a corresponding change to
seat height or should I move the seat back? If I slide the seat back
the same amount as I pushed the cleats forward wouldn't this all just
shift everything back a bit and place more weight on my butt? Would
the cleat forward activate more calf eventhough Knee relative to pedal
has not changed?

Regards,
Craig

"Craig B" wrote in message
m...
After some back of the knee and hamstring pain I have decided to move
my cleats forward. My setback has my seat all the way forward on its
rails, and my seat height is as low as it can go without bothering the
front of my knees. Question is, if the cleats are moved forward, this
would put me ahead of KOPS. Should I make a corresponding change to
seat height or should I move the seat back? If I slide the seat back
the same amount as I pushed the cleats forward wouldn't this all just
shift everything back a bit and place more weight on my butt? Would
the cleat forward activate more calf eventhough Knee relative to pedal
has not changed?

Regards,
Craig


The following is some really great advice on position that considers your
body composition and flexibility rather than dogmatic rules.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/fitness/?...4/letters08-09
Knee over pedal spindle

http://www.cyclingnews.com/fitness/?...ers07-26#Cleat
Cleat position #1 and #2

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/kops.html
Myth of KOPS, Bontrager

Bill

Craig B wrote:
After some back of the knee and hamstring pain I have decided to move
my cleats forward. My setback has my seat all the way forward on its
rails, and my seat height is as low as it can go without bothering the
front of my knees. Question is, if the cleats are moved forward, this
would put me ahead of KOPS. Should I make a corresponding change to
seat height or should I move the seat back? If I slide the seat back
the same amount as I pushed the cleats forward wouldn't this all just
shift everything back a bit and place more weight on my butt? Would
the cleat forward activate more calf eventhough Knee relative to pedal
has not changed?

Moving the cleats forward will actually push you BACK from KOPS.

Bill "think about it" S.

Watch out you don't stress your achilles tendons when you move your cleats
fwd. Move a little at a time.
Bob C

"Craig B" wrote in message
m...
After some back of the knee and hamstring pain I have decided to move
my cleats forward. My setback has my seat all the way forward on its
rails, and my seat height is as low as it can go without bothering the
front of my knees. Question is, if the cleats are moved forward, this
would put me ahead of KOPS. Should I make a corresponding change to
seat height or should I move the seat back? If I slide the seat back
the same amount as I pushed the cleats forward wouldn't this all just
shift everything back a bit and place more weight on my butt? Would
the cleat forward activate more calf eventhough Knee relative to pedal
has not changed?

Regards,
Craig

S o r n i wrote in message ...
Craig B wrote:
After some back of the knee and hamstring pain I have decided to move
my cleats forward. My setback has my seat all the way forward on its
rails, and my seat height is as low as it can go without bothering the
front of my knees. Question is, if the cleats are moved forward, this
would put me ahead of KOPS. Should I make a corresponding change to
seat height or should I move the seat back? If I slide the seat back
the same amount as I pushed the cleats forward wouldn't this all just
shift everything back a bit and place more weight on my butt? Would
the cleat forward activate more calf eventhough Knee relative to pedal
has not changed?

Moving the cleats forward will actually push you BACK from KOPS.

The knee position remains the same it is the foot and lower leg which are
affected by cleat position.

Trevor

Trevor Jeffrey wrote:
S o r n i wrote in message ...

Craig B wrote:

After some back of the knee and hamstring pain I have decided to move
my cleats forward. My setback has my seat all the way forward on its
rails, and my seat height is as low as it can go without bothering the
front of my knees. Question is, if the cleats are moved forward, this
would put me ahead of KOPS. Should I make a corresponding change to
seat height or should I move the seat back? If I slide the seat back
the same amount as I pushed the cleats forward wouldn't this all just
shift everything back a bit and place more weight on my butt? Would
the cleat forward activate more calf eventhough Knee relative to pedal
has not changed?

Moving the cleats forward will actually push you BACK from KOPS.


The knee position remains the same it is the foot and lower leg which are
affected by cleat position.

Yes that's technically true, but it does change the
torso-to-upper-leg-angle slightly, as if one had moved one's seat
*forward* a little bit (not back, as Sorni was implying with the KOPS
reference). Even if the knee position relative to centre bracket is
unchanged, the new angle will cause different loadings on the leg
muscles and knees and this will be felt to a greater or lesser degree,
depending on how well your knees behave in general.

I moved my cleats *back* on my shoes and got a much more restful riding
position, but started getting slight knee pain as well. I have now
shifted my seat forward approx. 8 mm to get back to the original
torso-leg angle and problems have disappeared. Of course to get same arm
stretch forwards, I now have to choose between increasing my handlebar
stem length from 120 to 130 mm or cheating a bit by sawing 1 cm off my
steerer tube to drop the bars a bit.

/Robert

Robert wrote in message ...
Trevor Jeffrey wrote:

The knee position remains the same it is the foot and lower leg which are
affected by cleat position.

Yes that's technically true, but it does change the
torso-to-upper-leg-angle slightly, as if one had moved one's seat
*forward* a little bit (not back, as Sorni was implying with the KOPS
reference). Even if the knee position relative to centre bracket is
unchanged, the new angle will cause different loadings on the leg
muscles and knees and this will be felt to a greater or lesser degree,
depending on how well your knees behave in general.

I moved my cleats *back* on my shoes and got a much more restful riding
position, but started getting slight knee pain as well. I have now
shifted my seat forward approx. 8 mm to get back to the original
torso-leg angle and problems have disappeared. Of course to get same arm
stretch forwards, I now have to choose between increasing my handlebar
stem length from 120 to 130 mm or cheating a bit by sawing 1 cm off my
steerer tube to drop the bars a bit.


The knee pain is most probably due to over extension, a slight lowering of
the saddle would have left the knee more bent in its lower position so
reducing femur rotation. It is the femur rotation which seems to upset the
proper functioning of the knee during cycling. Generally a bad move to
lower handlebars except in short distance racing. Try the lowered seat
position.

Trevor

Trevor Jeffrey wrote:
Robert wrote in message ...

Trevor Jeffrey wrote:

The knee position remains the same it is the foot and lower leg which are
affected by cleat position.

Yes that's technically true, but it does change the
torso-to-upper-leg-angle slightly, as if one had moved one's seat
*forward* a little bit (not back, as Sorni was implying with the KOPS
reference). Even if the knee position relative to centre bracket is
unchanged, the new angle will cause different loadings on the leg
muscles and knees and this will be felt to a greater or lesser degree,
depending on how well your knees behave in general.

I moved my cleats *back* on my shoes and got a much more restful riding
position, but started getting slight knee pain as well. I have now
shifted my seat forward approx. 8 mm to get back to the original
torso-leg angle and problems have disappeared. Of course to get same arm
stretch forwards, I now have to choose between increasing my handlebar
stem length from 120 to 130 mm or cheating a bit by sawing 1 cm off my
steerer tube to drop the bars a bit.



The knee pain is most probably due to over extension, a slight lowering of
the saddle would have left the knee more bent in its lower position so
reducing femur rotation. It is the femur rotation which seems to upset the
proper functioning of the knee during cycling. Generally a bad move to
lower handlebars except in short distance racing. Try the lowered seat
position.

Trevor

Trevor, your idea works in my case. Moving the seat forward as I did
also had the effect of lowering the seat relative to the centre bracket
by about 3 mm. More or less; I didn't do the trig on it yet.

I rode this way for about 50 km today, pedalling mostly at 105-110
cadence with no trouble at all. Felt too good to be true so I raised the
seat that 3 mm and got that twinge across the back of the knee again,
after only 5 km. So, back down with the seat again . . .

BTW what's _your_ view of what constitutes correct seat height? Where
one can just rest the heel on the pedal without rotating hips? Or even
lower than that?

(this might spark of a ton of postings but it'll be interesting to see
what comes in)

/Robert

Robert wrote in message ...

Trevor, your idea works in my case. Moving the seat forward as I did
also had the effect of lowering the seat relative to the centre bracket
by about 3 mm. More or less; I didn't do the trig on it yet.

I rode this way for about 50 km today, pedalling mostly at 105-110
cadence with no trouble at all. Felt too good to be true so I raised the
seat that 3 mm and got that twinge across the back of the knee again,
after only 5 km. So, back down with the seat again . . .

BTW what's _your_ view of what constitutes correct seat height? Where
one can just rest the heel on the pedal without rotating hips? Or even
lower than that?

You've found it. At least for the present, with more riding you may be
able to extend the saddle again. A change in crank length will directly
change seat height. If you need shorter cranks to allow belly breathing,
lower the seat height by the same amount.

Trevor