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Euphemism for Illegal Mountain Bike Trails: "Gray Trails"
From: "Jon Kennedy"
Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 17:55:24 -0000 Subject: Staff Night Out (5/30) -- Gray Area Conversation -- Come join Justin and Jon next Wednesday at the Redhook Brewery in Woodinville for the fourth BBTC Staff Night Out. At this pub night we want your feedback on what our policy on gray trails should be. A gray trail is one where the land owner informally allows us to maintain, build or use trails on their land, but there is no formal written policy. Sometimes they like us there to keep the meth heads and dumping out, but it is a "don't ask, don't tell" type thing. Should we ignore gray trails, encourage their use, try to shut them down, support their maintenance? We want to know what you think. -- I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.) Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of! http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande |
Euphemism for Illegal Mountain Bike Trails: "Gray Trails"
"Mike Vandeman" wrote in message ... From: "Jon Kennedy" Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 17:55:24 -0000 Subject: Staff Night Out (5/30) -- Gray Area Conversation -- Come join Justin and Jon next Wednesday at the Redhook Brewery in Woodinville for the fourth BBTC Staff Night Out. At this pub night we want your feedback on what our policy on gray trails should be. A gray trail is one where the land owner informally allows us to maintain, build or use trails on their land, but there is no formal written policy. Sometimes they like us there to keep the meth heads and dumping out, but it is a "don't ask, don't tell" type thing. Should we ignore gray trails, encourage their use, try to shut them down, support their maintenance? We want to know what you think. This is easy. The land owners have a problem, the bike riders keep the problem to a minimum level, or eliminate it altogether. Don't ask, don't tell. The land owner might turn around tomorrow and decide that crack heads are a better choice for whatever reason. No matter what policy is devised now, the land owner has the final say -- assuming we are discussing private property. Bottom line, you should not be there, but if nobody is objecting, take care to not get hurt and then turn around and sue somebody. |
Euphemism for Illegal Mountain Bike Trails: "Gray Trails"
On Wed, 23 May 2007 19:48:04 -0700, wrote:
In article , says... From: "Jon Kennedy" Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 17:55:24 -0000 Subject: Staff Night Out (5/30) -- Gray Area Conversation -- Come join Justin and Jon next Wednesday at the Redhook Brewery in Woodinville for the fourth BBTC Staff Night Out. At this pub night we want your feedback on what our policy on gray trails should be. A gray trail is one where the land owner informally allows us to maintain, build or use trails on their land, but there is no formal written policy. So it's illegal now for land owners to allow trails on their property? No, it's illegal to trespass and damage private property. DUH! Leave it to a mountain biker not to know that. -- I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.) Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of! http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande |
Euphemism for Illegal Mountain Bike Trails: "Gray Trails"
On May 24, 9:31 am, Mike Vandeman wrote:
On Wed, 23 May 2007 19:48:04 -0700, wrote: In article , says... From: "Jon Kennedy" Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 17:55:24 -0000 Subject: Staff Night Out (5/30) -- Gray Area Conversation -- Come join Justin and Jon next Wednesday at the Redhook Brewery in Woodinville for the fourth BBTC Staff Night Out. At this pub night we want your feedback on what our policy on gray trails should be. A gray trail is one where the land owner informally allows us to maintain, build or use trails on their land, but there is no formal written policy. So it's illegal now for land owners to allow trails on their property? No, it's illegal to trespass and damage private property. DUH! Leave it to a mountain biker not to know that. -- I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.) Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of! http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande What don't you understand about "informally allows". That's not trespassing. You spin faster than any politician. A gray trail is one the land owners knows about and approves of, but just doesn't want the riders to tell the world about it. The riders thank the owner by keeping the trails in shape, land garbage free and keeps the non desirables out. |
Euphemism for Illegal Mountain Bike Trails: "Gray Trails"
In article ,
says... On Wed, 23 May 2007 19:48:04 -0700, wrote: In article , says... From: "Jon Kennedy" Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 17:55:24 -0000 Subject: Staff Night Out (5/30) -- Gray Area Conversation -- Come join Justin and Jon next Wednesday at the Redhook Brewery in Woodinville for the fourth BBTC Staff Night Out. At this pub night we want your feedback on what our policy on gray trails should be. A gray trail is one where the land owner informally allows us to maintain, build or use trails on their land, but there is no formal written policy. So it's illegal now for land owners to allow trails on their property? No, it's illegal to trespass and damage private property. DUH! Leave it to a mountain biker not to know that. Which has exactly what to do with trails that the landowner has specifically allowed, though not in writing? Or did you not bother reading what you posted: "A gray trail is one where the land owner informally allows us to maintain, build or use trails on their land" -- is Joshua Putnam http://www.phred.org/~josh/ Updated Infrared Photography Gallery: http://www.phred.org/~josh/photo/ir.html |
Euphemism for Illegal Mountain Bike Trails: "Gray Trails"
On 2007-05-24, Mike Vandeman wrote:
On Wed, 23 May 2007 19:48:04 -0700, wrote: In article , says... From: "Jon Kennedy" Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 17:55:24 -0000 Subject: Staff Night Out (5/30) -- Gray Area Conversation -- Come join Justin and Jon next Wednesday at the Redhook Brewery in Woodinville for the fourth BBTC Staff Night Out. At this pub night we want your feedback on what our policy on gray trails should be. A gray trail is one where the land owner informally allows us to maintain, build or use trails on their land, but there is no formal written policy. So it's illegal now for land owners to allow trails on their property? No, it's illegal to trespass and damage private property. DUH! Leave it to a mountain biker not to know that. Actually, in many states being on other folks' land is not, in and of itself, illegal or trespassing. Depending of the state, the land may have to be fenced, posted at specific intervals, or the landowner may have to order folks off the land to make presence constitute trespass and be subject to civil and criminal penalties. California requires, IIRC, at a minimum of posting every third of a mile along a property boundary plus posting at all places where roads and trails enter the property. This is kinda important to hikers, or there would be even more access problems than there already are ... Cheers, Wolf. -- Dr. Brian Leverich Co-moderator, soc.genealogy.methods/GENMTD-L Angeles Chapter LTC Admin Chair http://angeles.sierraclub.org/ltc/ P.O. Box 6831, Frazier Park, CA 93222-6831 |
Euphemism for Illegal Mountain Bike Trails: "Gray Trails"
Wolf Leverich wrote:
snip Depending of the state, the land may have to be fenced, posted at specific intervals, or the landowner may have to order folks off the land to make presence constitute trespass and be subject to civil and criminal penalties. California requires, IIRC, at a minimum of posting every third of a mile along a property boundary plus posting at all places where roads and trails enter the property. Wrong. I live in California and the rangers will give out a ticket even knowing they are wrong. They play the odds that you won't plead not guilty. I came down off of an unmarked fire trail once, not even sure which park I was in, and the ranger wrote me a traffic ticket for riding on a non-bike trail. I ate the ticket and then it showed up on my driving record. This is kinda important to hikers, or there would be even more access problems than there already are ... May be some of us in California should write about bad rangers. Bill Baka Cheers, Wolf. -- Dr. Brian Leverich Co-moderator, soc.genealogy.methods/GENMTD-L Angeles Chapter LTC Admin Chair http://angeles.sierraclub.org/ltc/ P.O. Box 6831, Frazier Park, CA 93222-6831 |
Euphemism for Illegal Mountain Bike Trails: "Gray Trails"
On 2007-05-24, Bill wrote:
Wolf Leverich wrote: snip Depending of the state, the land may have to be fenced, posted at specific intervals, or the landowner may have to order folks off the land to make presence constitute trespass and be subject to civil and criminal penalties. California requires, IIRC, at a minimum of posting every third of a mile along a property boundary plus posting at all places where roads and trails enter the property. Wrong. I live in California and the rangers will give out a ticket even knowing they are wrong. They play the odds that you won't plead not guilty. I came down off of an unmarked fire trail once, not even sure which park I was in, and the ranger wrote me a traffic ticket for riding on a non-bike trail. I ate the ticket and then it showed up on my driving record. Oops, my bad. I was responding to MV's apparent assertion that riding on private property was automatically trespassing. It isn't. I wouldn't be terrifically surprised, though, if riding closed-to-bike trails on public lands is a citeable offense, even if the trail isn't marked where you got on it. One of my pet peeves is that if you're the CEO of Enron, the government has to fly up its own arse to prove you intended to break the law (though it's obvious even to the village idiot). But if you're an ordinary Joe who gets screwed on something like this, the fact that there was no reasonable way for you to know you were in the wrong place isn't a defense at all. This sucks. ### This is kinda important to hikers, or there would be even more access problems than there already are ... May be some of us in California should write about bad rangers. Bill Baka Not a bad plan. Might at least get the trails marked better. Cheers, Wolf. -- Dr. Brian Leverich Co-moderator, soc.genealogy.methods/GENMTD-L Angeles Chapter LTC Admin Chair http://angeles.sierraclub.org/ltc/ P.O. Box 6831, Frazier Park, CA 93222-6831 |
Euphemism for Illegal Mountain Bike Trails: "Gray Trails"
On 24 May 2007 09:57:04 -0700, SGK wrote:
On May 24, 9:31 am, Mike Vandeman wrote: On Wed, 23 May 2007 19:48:04 -0700, wrote: In article , says... From: "Jon Kennedy" Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 17:55:24 -0000 Subject: Staff Night Out (5/30) -- Gray Area Conversation -- Come join Justin and Jon next Wednesday at the Redhook Brewery in Woodinville for the fourth BBTC Staff Night Out. At this pub night we want your feedback on what our policy on gray trails should be. A gray trail is one where the land owner informally allows us to maintain, build or use trails on their land, but there is no formal written policy. So it's illegal now for land owners to allow trails on their property? No, it's illegal to trespass and damage private property. DUH! Leave it to a mountain biker not to know that. -- I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.) Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of! http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande What don't you understand about "informally allows". That's not trespassing. You spin faster than any politician. A gray trail is one the land owners knows about and approves of, but just doesn't want the riders to tell the world about it. You completely missed the point: the mountain bikers CLAIM that they have approval, but there is no proof, and none was presented. More likely, they have just done it without asking (as usual), and have not been caught yet. Why should they be any different from other mountain bikers, a huge number of whom simply do what they want, and claim ignorance later (they ARE ignorant, but not in that way; they are ignorant of their environmental impact). The riders thank the owner by keeping the trails in shape, land garbage free and keeps the non desirables out. -- I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.) Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of! http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande |
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