Dry lube?
 

On Fri, 4 May 2018 15:43:16 +1000, James
wrote:

On 04/05/18 02:28, wrote:


I don't think there is one best method for everyone who have
different requirements and priorities. I treat my chain and cassette
on my commuter bike different than on my high end road bike. Cassette
and chain for my commuter cost 50 euro's; for my high end road bike
almost 300 euro's. Bikes are ridden in different circumstances and
different frequencies


Indeed. I couldn't think of anything worse than having to put a drop of
expensive wax in solvent solution on each chain link before each ride.
What a ritual!

And then being a careful sort of bloke one should go back over the
entire chain to ensure that no links had been skipped :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

Dry lube?
 

On Friday, May 4, 2018 at 1:49:52 AM UTC+2, sms wrote:
On 5/3/2018 9:28 AM, wrote:

snip

I don't think there is one best method for everyone who have different requirements and priorities. I treat my chain and cassette on my commuter bike different than on my high end road bike. Cassette and chain for my commuter cost 50 euro's; for my high end road bike almost 300 euro's. Bikes are ridden in different circumstances and different frequencies

It's not rocket science. You want to get the dirt off and the lubricant
in. There are many ways to accomplish this, of various difficulty and
expense.

Every year at Interbike there must be twenty companies with the latest
and greatest chain cleaner and chain lubricant, but in essence it's all
repackaging of inexpensive solvents and lubricants into small bottles
with fancy names.

For cleaning, a non-water-based solvent like kerosene is as good as any
of these fancy cleaners. Diesel fuel also works fine. Just avoid water
based cleaners like Simple Green.

For lubrication, as long as you're not using a solid lubricant that
doesn't quickly get displaced, or a very thin lubricant that doesn't
stay between pins and rollers, there's no upside in using a high cost
lubricant over standard weight, non-detergent oil (for lubrication by
soaking). For on-bike lubrication, the thin carrier of motorcycle chain
lube allows the lubricant to penetrate between pins and rollers, then
the carrier evaporates.

SAE 30 Chain Oil, 1 gallon, $8.48: https://www.walmart.com/ip/16795133
Kerosene, 1 gallon, $8.75 https://www.walmart.com/ip/51741742
PJ-1 Chain Lube, 17 ounces $18.17 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000UKH86Y
Park Chain Cleaner, $24.65 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00094CWA8

I recall the two complaints about chain cleaning tools:
1. They splatter solvent everywhere
2. The solvent gets dirty really fast

The first issue has largely been solved, there is some dripping but
nothing that can't be contained.

The second issue is not an issue at all. You must repeatedly replace the
dirty solvent with clean solvent until it runs clear. A dirty chain
might require five or more solvent changes since the quantity of solvent
in these devices is very small.

Like many people here, I went through the hot paraffin waxing stage.
It's a lot of work for not very good results, and all the experts agree
that it's not really a good idea. I know that now most people mix an
oil-based lubricant in with the wax to solve at least some of the issues.

I wonder what busy bicycle shops use for cleaning and lubricating
chains. I doubt if they remove chains from bikes to clean and lubricate
them. I know one person who told me about a shop he worked at and how
they had a tank of solvent that was pumped into a chain cleaning device
with dirty solvent coming out, but I have never seen such a commercial
product and I think that that shop just modified a regular chain cleaner
in order to save time.

Yes it is very simple:
- keeping the grit out for durability and,
- keeping the chain lubed for efficiency,
- all the above in the minimum amount of time.

Lou

Dry lube?
 

On Friday, May 4, 2018 at 7:43:21 AM UTC+2, James wrote:
On 04/05/18 02:28, wrote:


I don't think there is one best method for everyone who have
different requirements and priorities. I treat my chain and cassette
on my commuter bike different than on my high end road bike. Cassette
and chain for my commuter cost 50 euro's; for my high end road bike
almost 300 euro's. Bikes are ridden in different circumstances and
different frequencies


Indeed. I couldn't think of anything worse than having to put a drop of
expensive wax in solvent solution on each chain link before each ride.
What a ritual!

--
JS

Before each ride?
Lubing the chain like this takes 1-2 minutes. Less time than taking the chain of the bike and putting in on again. Everyone is entitled to his own ritual.

Lou

Dry lube?
 

On Friday, May 4, 2018 at 8:53:24 AM UTC+2, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 4 May 2018 15:43:16 +1000, James
wrote:

On 04/05/18 02:28, wrote:


I don't think there is one best method for everyone who have
different requirements and priorities. I treat my chain and cassette
on my commuter bike different than on my high end road bike. Cassette
and chain for my commuter cost 50 euro's; for my high end road bike
almost 300 euro's. Bikes are ridden in different circumstances and
different frequencies


Indeed. I couldn't think of anything worse than having to put a drop of
expensive wax in solvent solution on each chain link before each ride.
What a ritual!

And then being a careful sort of bloke one should go back over the
entire chain to ensure that no links had been skipped :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

You start with the masterlink or at the link where the chain is put together with the special pin provided with the chain.

Lou

Dry lube?
 

On Fri, 4 May 2018 02:24:11 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Friday, May 4, 2018 at 1:49:52 AM UTC+2, sms wrote:
On 5/3/2018 9:28 AM, wrote:

snip

I don't think there is one best method for everyone who have different requirements and priorities. I treat my chain and cassette on my commuter bike different than on my high end road bike. Cassette and chain for my commuter cost 50 euro's; for my high end road bike almost 300 euro's. Bikes are ridden in different circumstances and different frequencies

It's not rocket science. You want to get the dirt off and the lubricant
in. There are many ways to accomplish this, of various difficulty and
expense.

Every year at Interbike there must be twenty companies with the latest
and greatest chain cleaner and chain lubricant, but in essence it's all
repackaging of inexpensive solvents and lubricants into small bottles
with fancy names.

For cleaning, a non-water-based solvent like kerosene is as good as any
of these fancy cleaners. Diesel fuel also works fine. Just avoid water
based cleaners like Simple Green.

For lubrication, as long as you're not using a solid lubricant that
doesn't quickly get displaced, or a very thin lubricant that doesn't
stay between pins and rollers, there's no upside in using a high cost
lubricant over standard weight, non-detergent oil (for lubrication by
soaking). For on-bike lubrication, the thin carrier of motorcycle chain
lube allows the lubricant to penetrate between pins and rollers, then
the carrier evaporates.

SAE 30 Chain Oil, 1 gallon, $8.48: https://www.walmart.com/ip/16795133
Kerosene, 1 gallon, $8.75 https://www.walmart.com/ip/51741742
PJ-1 Chain Lube, 17 ounces $18.17 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000UKH86Y
Park Chain Cleaner, $24.65 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00094CWA8

I recall the two complaints about chain cleaning tools:
1. They splatter solvent everywhere
2. The solvent gets dirty really fast

The first issue has largely been solved, there is some dripping but
nothing that can't be contained.

The second issue is not an issue at all. You must repeatedly replace the
dirty solvent with clean solvent until it runs clear. A dirty chain
might require five or more solvent changes since the quantity of solvent
in these devices is very small.

Like many people here, I went through the hot paraffin waxing stage.
It's a lot of work for not very good results, and all the experts agree
that it's not really a good idea. I know that now most people mix an
oil-based lubricant in with the wax to solve at least some of the issues.

I wonder what busy bicycle shops use for cleaning and lubricating
chains. I doubt if they remove chains from bikes to clean and lubricate
them. I know one person who told me about a shop he worked at and how
they had a tank of solvent that was pumped into a chain cleaning device
with dirty solvent coming out, but I have never seen such a commercial
product and I think that that shop just modified a regular chain cleaner
in order to save time.

Yes it is very simple:
- keeping the grit out for durability and,
- keeping the chain lubed for efficiency,
- all the above in the minimum amount of time.

Lou

A couple of shops I've seen, here, simply use a power washer. Frame,
wheels, chains and sprockets. Very quick and leaves everything looking
spick and span.

I don't know, but I assume that they hit the chain with some lube
after it dries off.
--
Cheers,

John B.

Dry lube?
 

On Thu, 3 May 2018 16:49:48 -0700,
sms wrote:
On 5/3/2018 9:28 AM, wrote:

snip

I don't think there is one best method for everyone who have
different requirements and priorities. I treat my chain and
cassette on my commuter bike different than on my high end
road bike. Cassette and chain for my commuter cost 50 euro's;
for my high end road bike almost 300 euro's. Bikes are ridden
in different circumstances and different frequencies

It's not rocket science. You want to get the dirt off and the
lubricant in. There are many ways to accomplish this, of
various difficulty and expense.

Like many people here, I went through the hot paraffin waxing
stage. It's a lot of work for not very good results

Recognizing the topic has probably been hashed and rehashed here
many times, I'd be interested in hearing more about the "not very
good results" you mention.

I've used Gulfwax on my bike chains for over 20 years now. For
each bike I keep two chains. I generally get between 500 to 1000
miles before they need reapplication. I just put the pot of wax
(no oil added) on the stove, and bring it up to just over 200
degrees F (so any water will boil off). One by one I immerse each
chain and stir it around for a minute or two, then fish it out and
lat it on newspaper. Once they are cool enough to handle, I put
one on the bike and fold the other up in a baggy.

I do have a fixed gear bike I use for commuting and knocking
around, and like someone else posted recently I just drip a small
bit of motor oil on that chain occasionally. Once every few years
or so, I take the chain off and clean it pretty well.

--
Ted Heise West Lafayette, IN, USA

Dry lube?
 

On 5/3/2018 10:43 PM, James wrote:
On 04/05/18 02:28, wrote:


I don't think there is one best method for everyone who have
different requirements and priorities. I treat my chain and cassette
on my commuter bike different than on my high end road bike. Cassette
and chain for my commuter cost 50 euro's; for my high end road bike
almost 300 euro's. Bikes are ridden in different circumstances and
different frequencies


Indeed.Â* I couldn't think of anything worse than having to put a drop of
expensive wax in solvent solution on each chain link before each ride.
What a ritual!

True. And you're assuming that the wax and solvent is not just making it
onto the chain's surface. I've never tried hot waxing of a chain on the
bike using a torch. I don't know how you'd do such a thing with solvent
or lubricant mixed in. Perhaps there are bars of paraffin with solvent
already mixed in.

Save the hot wax for skis. I do this all the time on my X-C skis. Maybe
I should try putting some lubricant on them to go faster.

Dry lube?
 

On Friday, May 4, 2018 at 1:22:51 PM UTC+2, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 4 May 2018 02:24:11 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Friday, May 4, 2018 at 1:49:52 AM UTC+2, sms wrote:
On 5/3/2018 9:28 AM, wrote:

snip

I don't think there is one best method for everyone who have different requirements and priorities. I treat my chain and cassette on my commuter bike different than on my high end road bike. Cassette and chain for my commuter cost 50 euro's; for my high end road bike almost 300 euro's. Bikes are ridden in different circumstances and different frequencies

It's not rocket science. You want to get the dirt off and the lubricant
in. There are many ways to accomplish this, of various difficulty and
expense.

Every year at Interbike there must be twenty companies with the latest
and greatest chain cleaner and chain lubricant, but in essence it's all
repackaging of inexpensive solvents and lubricants into small bottles
with fancy names.

For cleaning, a non-water-based solvent like kerosene is as good as any
of these fancy cleaners. Diesel fuel also works fine. Just avoid water
based cleaners like Simple Green.

For lubrication, as long as you're not using a solid lubricant that
doesn't quickly get displaced, or a very thin lubricant that doesn't
stay between pins and rollers, there's no upside in using a high cost
lubricant over standard weight, non-detergent oil (for lubrication by
soaking). For on-bike lubrication, the thin carrier of motorcycle chain
lube allows the lubricant to penetrate between pins and rollers, then
the carrier evaporates.

SAE 30 Chain Oil, 1 gallon, $8.48: https://www.walmart.com/ip/16795133
Kerosene, 1 gallon, $8.75 https://www.walmart.com/ip/51741742
PJ-1 Chain Lube, 17 ounces $18.17 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000UKH86Y
Park Chain Cleaner, $24.65 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00094CWA8

I recall the two complaints about chain cleaning tools:
1. They splatter solvent everywhere
2. The solvent gets dirty really fast

The first issue has largely been solved, there is some dripping but
nothing that can't be contained.

The second issue is not an issue at all. You must repeatedly replace the
dirty solvent with clean solvent until it runs clear. A dirty chain
might require five or more solvent changes since the quantity of solvent
in these devices is very small.

Like many people here, I went through the hot paraffin waxing stage.
It's a lot of work for not very good results, and all the experts agree
that it's not really a good idea. I know that now most people mix an
oil-based lubricant in with the wax to solve at least some of the issues.

I wonder what busy bicycle shops use for cleaning and lubricating
chains. I doubt if they remove chains from bikes to clean and lubricate
them. I know one person who told me about a shop he worked at and how
they had a tank of solvent that was pumped into a chain cleaning device
with dirty solvent coming out, but I have never seen such a commercial
product and I think that that shop just modified a regular chain cleaner
in order to save time.

Yes it is very simple:
- keeping the grit out for durability and,
- keeping the chain lubed for efficiency,
- all the above in the minimum amount of time.

Lou

A couple of shops I've seen, here, simply use a power washer. Frame,
wheels, chains and sprockets. Very quick and leaves everything looking
spick and span.

I don't know, but I assume that they hit the chain with some lube
after it dries off.
--
Cheers,

John B.

I clean my off road bikes at the carwash. Relube after drying of coarse. I don't think I can prevent grid getting in totally but here the wax based lubes excel.


Lou

Dry lube?
 

On Fri, 4 May 2018 08:02:16 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Friday, May 4, 2018 at 1:22:51 PM UTC+2, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 4 May 2018 02:24:11 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Friday, May 4, 2018 at 1:49:52 AM UTC+2, sms wrote:
On 5/3/2018 9:28 AM, wrote:

snip

I don't think there is one best method for everyone who have different requirements and priorities. I treat my chain and cassette on my commuter bike different than on my high end road bike. Cassette and chain for my commuter cost 50 euro's; for my high end road bike almost 300 euro's. Bikes are ridden in different circumstances and different frequencies

It's not rocket science. You want to get the dirt off and the lubricant
in. There are many ways to accomplish this, of various difficulty and
expense.

Every year at Interbike there must be twenty companies with the latest
and greatest chain cleaner and chain lubricant, but in essence it's all
repackaging of inexpensive solvents and lubricants into small bottles
with fancy names.

For cleaning, a non-water-based solvent like kerosene is as good as any
of these fancy cleaners. Diesel fuel also works fine. Just avoid water
based cleaners like Simple Green.

For lubrication, as long as you're not using a solid lubricant that
doesn't quickly get displaced, or a very thin lubricant that doesn't
stay between pins and rollers, there's no upside in using a high cost
lubricant over standard weight, non-detergent oil (for lubrication by
soaking). For on-bike lubrication, the thin carrier of motorcycle chain
lube allows the lubricant to penetrate between pins and rollers, then
the carrier evaporates.

SAE 30 Chain Oil, 1 gallon, $8.48: https://www.walmart.com/ip/16795133
Kerosene, 1 gallon, $8.75 https://www.walmart.com/ip/51741742
PJ-1 Chain Lube, 17 ounces $18.17 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000UKH86Y
Park Chain Cleaner, $24.65 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00094CWA8

I recall the two complaints about chain cleaning tools:
1. They splatter solvent everywhere
2. The solvent gets dirty really fast

The first issue has largely been solved, there is some dripping but
nothing that can't be contained.

The second issue is not an issue at all. You must repeatedly replace the
dirty solvent with clean solvent until it runs clear. A dirty chain
might require five or more solvent changes since the quantity of solvent
in these devices is very small.

Like many people here, I went through the hot paraffin waxing stage.
It's a lot of work for not very good results, and all the experts agree
that it's not really a good idea. I know that now most people mix an
oil-based lubricant in with the wax to solve at least some of the issues.

I wonder what busy bicycle shops use for cleaning and lubricating
chains. I doubt if they remove chains from bikes to clean and lubricate
them. I know one person who told me about a shop he worked at and how
they had a tank of solvent that was pumped into a chain cleaning device
with dirty solvent coming out, but I have never seen such a commercial
product and I think that that shop just modified a regular chain cleaner
in order to save time.

Yes it is very simple:
- keeping the grit out for durability and,
- keeping the chain lubed for efficiency,
- all the above in the minimum amount of time.

Lou

A couple of shops I've seen, here, simply use a power washer. Frame,
wheels, chains and sprockets. Very quick and leaves everything looking
spick and span.

I don't know, but I assume that they hit the chain with some lube
after it dries off.
--
Cheers,

John B.

I clean my off road bikes at the carwash. Relube after drying of coarse. I don't think I can prevent grid getting in totally but here the wax based lubes excel.

The main problem is that everyone is running their chains under very
adverse conditions and then bragging about what would be considered in
industrial use as very limited use. Somewhere I read about some bloke
that was re-lubricating his chain every 1,000 miles. In a plant using
a conveyer system that would be re-lubeing every 5 days and I, at
least, have never seen a plant shut down for re-lubeing every 5 days.

Every chain maker publishes manuals that provide exact instructions
about alignment of sprockets, chain tension, cleanliness, lubrication,
and even minimum sprocket size, all of which bicycles ignore.

Given the, what can only be termed as abuse, that bicycle chains
undergo I'd reckon that they do pretty well :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

Dry lube?
 

On 5/4/2018 8:07 PM, John B. wrote:

The main problem is that everyone is running their [bike] chains under very
adverse conditions and then bragging about what would be considered in
industrial use as very limited use. Somewhere I read about some bloke
that was re-lubricating his chain every 1,000 miles. In a plant using
a conveyer system that would be re-lubeing every 5 days and I, at
least, have never seen a plant shut down for re-lubeing every 5 days.

Every chain maker publishes manuals that provide exact instructions
about alignment of sprockets, chain tension, cleanliness, lubrication,
and even minimum sprocket size, all of which bicycles ignore.

Given the, what can only be termed as abuse, that bicycle chains
undergo I'd reckon that they do pretty well :-)

John's exactly right. Industrial roller chain manuals would never
condone the duty to which we subject derailleur chains.

And for proper industrial applications - enclosed, perfectly aligned,
kept clean - they specify various wet lubrication methods. Those include
even the possibility of continuous pumped streams of oil, or oil baths.

Obviously those industrial recommendations don't work for service so far
outside the normal industrial use. What does work is a lubrication
method that's also outside the normal industrial practice. Dry lube (wax
based) has been found by numerous tests to give the longest life and the
lowest friction.

On one hand, we have the testimonies of those here who have used it for
decades, plus the links to test results proving this. On the other hand,
we have a guy claiming "all the experts" say different. Go figure.


--
- Frank Krygowski