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Dry lube?
Dear cyclists,
After years using wet lubes in all conditions (currently, a specific chain oil with PTFE from 3in1 http://www.3-en-un.fr/produit/lubrifiant-chaines-et-cables-250ml/), and being used to seing my chain getting very dirty, I have just learnt that I may avoid this by using dry lube instead. Actually, I have heard of one specific product, the Squirt dry lube http://www.squirtlube.com/our-products/. It is about twice more expensive than the lubricant I am currently using, but it is supposed to reduce cleaning work, and if it does make the chain cleaner, it may as well reduce its wear and extend its life. So, have any of you tried that lubricant, or any other dry one? Would you recommend it rather than wet lubes? My most important usage is a daily commuting through suburb streets and forest paths (in all weather conditions, therfore quite muddy when it rains, but now that summer is coming, it is going to be rather dry). -- Â*Â*__o Tanguy Â*__\,_ (_)|'(_) |
Dry lube?
On 4/24/2018 4:06 AM, Tanguy Ortolo wrote:
Dear cyclists, After years using wet lubes in all conditions (currently, a specific chain oil with PTFE from 3in1 http://www.3-en-un.fr/produit/lubrifiant-chaines-et-cables-250ml/), and being used to seing my chain getting very dirty, I have just learnt that I may avoid this by using dry lube instead. Actually, I have heard of one specific product, the Squirt dry lube http://www.squirtlube.com/our-products/. It is about twice more expensive than the lubricant I am currently using, but it is supposed to reduce cleaning work, and if it does make the chain cleaner, it may as well reduce its wear and extend its life. So, have any of you tried that lubricant, or any other dry one? Would you recommend it rather than wet lubes? My most important usage is a daily commuting through suburb streets and forest paths (in all weather conditions, therfore quite muddy when it rains, but now that summer is coming, it is going to be rather dry). Because the dry lubricant is pushed out from under the rollers but doesn't flow back in, you'll need to apply it more frequently. Some riders prefer dry lubes and neither is better once you adjust the replenishing interval to suit your mileage and riding conditions. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
Dry lube?
One other thing, I have seen suggestions of lubricating only the chain,
and not the sprockets and derailleur. However, I think the derailleur sprockets still need some lubrication to roll with few friction, do they not? -- Tanguy |
Dry lube?
On 4/25/2018 4:54 AM, Tanguy Ortolo wrote:
One other thing, I have seen suggestions of lubricating only the chain, and not the sprockets and derailleur. However, I think the derailleur sprockets still need some lubrication to roll with few friction, do they not? No. The friction between the chain's rollers and the sprocket teeth is negligible. And if you add any lubricant to those surfaces, the lubricant will soon be filled with abrasive grime. That will accelerate wear and probably increase the friction. That's my estimation, anyway. -- - Frank Krygowski |
Dry lube?
On 24/04/18 19:06, Tanguy Ortolo wrote:
Dear cyclists, After years using wet lubes in all conditions (currently, a specific chain oil with PTFE from 3in1 http://www.3-en-un.fr/produit/lubrifiant-chaines-et-cables-250ml/), and being used to seing my chain getting very dirty, I have just learnt that I may avoid this by using dry lube instead. Actually, I have heard of one specific product, the Squirt dry lube http://www.squirtlube.com/our-products/. It is about twice more expensive than the lubricant I am currently using, but it is supposed to reduce cleaning work, and if it does make the chain cleaner, it may as well reduce its wear and extend its life. So, have any of you tried that lubricant, or any other dry one? Would you recommend it rather than wet lubes? My most important usage is a daily commuting through suburb streets and forest paths (in all weather conditions, therfore quite muddy when it rains, but now that summer is coming, it is going to be rather dry). Like Frank said, wax alone allows and the chain will squeak sooner rather than later. I use much more oil than Frank though, about 50/50 candle wax and EP gear oil. Paraffin oil is also apparently quite good. My mixture cost me sweet F.A., and lasts at least 1000km between applications including some wet rides. Heat the mix in an old cooking pot until it is liquid and immerse the chain. Use a Connex quick link for convenience. Ok, you might get a little black on your fingers to put a dropped chain back on, but the chain, chain rings, cassette and jockey wheels don't get gummed up with thick hardened crud either. It's the best of three worlds. 1/ Long chain life. 2/ Low maintenance. 3/ Low cost. -- JS |
Dry lube?
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 08:54:51 -0000 (UTC), Tanguy Ortolo
wrote: One other thing, I have seen suggestions of lubricating only the chain, and not the sprockets and derailleur. However, I think the derailleur sprockets still need some lubrication to roll with few friction, do they not? If you lube the chain (with whatever) some of that lube will be transferred to the sprockets. For proof simply handle a newly lubed chain :-) -- Cheers, John B. |
Dry lube?
On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 09:55:06 +1000, James
wrote: On 24/04/18 19:06, Tanguy Ortolo wrote: Dear cyclists, After years using wet lubes in all conditions (currently, a specific chain oil with PTFE from 3in1 http://www.3-en-un.fr/produit/lubrifiant-chaines-et-cables-250ml/), and being used to seing my chain getting very dirty, I have just learnt that I may avoid this by using dry lube instead. Actually, I have heard of one specific product, the Squirt dry lube http://www.squirtlube.com/our-products/. It is about twice more expensive than the lubricant I am currently using, but it is supposed to reduce cleaning work, and if it does make the chain cleaner, it may as well reduce its wear and extend its life. So, have any of you tried that lubricant, or any other dry one? Would you recommend it rather than wet lubes? My most important usage is a daily commuting through suburb streets and forest paths (in all weather conditions, therfore quite muddy when it rains, but now that summer is coming, it is going to be rather dry). Like Frank said, wax alone allows and the chain will squeak sooner rather than later. I use much more oil than Frank though, about 50/50 candle wax and EP gear oil. Paraffin oil is also apparently quite good. My mixture cost me sweet F.A., and lasts at least 1000km between applications including some wet rides. Heat the mix in an old cooking pot until it is liquid and immerse the chain. Use a Connex quick link for convenience. Ok, you might get a little black on your fingers to put a dropped chain back on, but the chain, chain rings, cassette and jockey wheels don't get gummed up with thick hardened crud either. It's the best of three worlds. 1/ Long chain life. 2/ Low maintenance. 3/ Low cost. What is the consistency of your oil/wax mixture at room temperature? I've been using a bee's wax/paraffin/grease mixture that when hardened feels greaseless. The bee's wax addition came about simply because the shop where I bought the paraffin wax had some bee's wax and I thought "why not", although it was about double the paraffin cost. It does make the wax mixture a bit softer though. -- Cheers, John B. |
Dry lube?
On 26/04/18 13:14, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 09:55:06 +1000, James wrote: Like Frank said, wax alone allows and the chain will squeak sooner rather than later. I use much more oil than Frank though, about 50/50 candle wax and EP gear oil. Paraffin oil is also apparently quite good. My mixture cost me sweet F.A., and lasts at least 1000km between applications including some wet rides. Heat the mix in an old cooking pot until it is liquid and immerse the chain. Use a Connex quick link for convenience. Ok, you might get a little black on your fingers to put a dropped chain back on, but the chain, chain rings, cassette and jockey wheels don't get gummed up with thick hardened crud either. It's the best of three worlds. 1/ Long chain life. 2/ Low maintenance. 3/ Low cost. What is the consistency of your oil/wax mixture at room temperature? On a very hot day, say 40C+, it softens. Below that it is solid, but has a slightly oily feel on the surface. I've been using a bee's wax/paraffin/grease mixture that when hardened feels greaseless. The bee's wax addition came about simply because the shop where I bought the paraffin wax had some bee's wax and I thought "why not", although it was about double the paraffin cost. It does make the wax mixture a bit softer though. My only experience with bees wax is to wax fly tying thread. From that I would say it might be a little sticky. -- JS |
Dry lube?
James, 2018-04-26 01:55+0200:
Like Frank said, wax alone allows and the chain will squeak sooner rather than later. I use much more oil than Frank though, about 50/50 candle wax and EP gear oil. Paraffin oil is also apparently quite good. Thank you for the advice! My mixture cost me sweet F.A., and lasts at least 1000km between applications including some wet rides. Heat the mix in an old cooking pot until it is liquid and immerse the chain. Use a Connex quick link for convenience. So, to sum up, I can get some paraffin wax, put it in a pot with some oil (paraffin or motor oil), heat it until it melts, stir to make an homogeneous mix, and immerse my previously cleaned chain in it. All right? The mixture will solidify again so I can then remove it from the pot and store it in some jar. It's the best of three worlds. 1/ Long chain life. 2/ Low maintenance. 3/ Low cost. Great, I have to try this! With some adaptation to enhance the wife acceptance factor, because I expect some trouble if I use a kitchen pot for such a mechanic work. :-D -- Tanguy |
Dry lube?
Frank Krygowski, 2018-04-25 17:43+0200:
On 4/25/2018 4:54 AM, Tanguy Ortolo wrote: One other thing, I have seen suggestions of lubricating only the chain, and not the sprockets and derailleur. However, I think the derailleur sprockets still need some lubrication to roll with few friction, do they not? No. The friction between the chain's rollers and the sprocket teeth is negligible. And if you add any lubricant to those surfaces, the lubricant will soon be filled with abrasive grime. That will accelerate wear and probably increase the friction. I was more thinking about the friction between the derailleur sprockets and their axles, actually. -- Tanguy |
Dry lube?
On 4/26/2018 4:03 AM, Tanguy Ortolo wrote:
Frank Krygowski, 2018-04-25 17:43+0200: On 4/25/2018 4:54 AM, Tanguy Ortolo wrote: One other thing, I have seen suggestions of lubricating only the chain, and not the sprockets and derailleur. However, I think the derailleur sprockets still need some lubrication to roll with few friction, do they not? No. The friction between the chain's rollers and the sprocket teeth is negligible. And if you add any lubricant to those surfaces, the lubricant will soon be filled with abrasive grime. That will accelerate wear and probably increase the friction. I was more thinking about the friction between the derailleur sprockets and their axles, actually. Indeed those squeak when run dry and the steel ones show bright red oxide from heat. Yes, do lubricate them, which for most models means slacking the bolt to get your lubricant inside. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
Dry lube?
AMuzi wrote:
On 4/26/2018 4:03 AM, Tanguy Ortolo wrote: Frank Krygowski, 2018-04-25 17:43+0200: On 4/25/2018 4:54 AM, Tanguy Ortolo wrote: One other thing, I have seen suggestions of lubricating only the chain, and not the sprockets and derailleur. However, I think the derailleur sprockets still need some lubrication to roll with few friction, do they not? No. The friction between the chain's rollers and the sprocket teeth is negligible. And if you add any lubricant to those surfaces, the lubricant will soon be filled with abrasive grime. That will accelerate wear and probably increase the friction. I was more thinking about the friction between the derailleur sprockets and their axles, actually. Indeed those squeak when run dry and the steel ones show bright red oxide from heat. Yes, do lubricate them, which for most models means slacking the bolt to get your lubricant inside. But Tanguy has so little time! When damaged more than the rest of the deraileur has aged, just get cheap sealed bearing jockey wheels, fit and "forget" https://tacx.com/fr/products/galets-de-derailleurs/ |
Dry lube?
Sepp Ruf, 2018-04-26 16:36+0200:
But Tanguy has so little time! When damaged more than the rest of the deraileur has aged, just get cheap sealed bearing jockey wheels, fit and "forget" https://tacx.com/fr/products/galets-de-derailleurs/ I will indeed buy new derailleur wheels when they are used, but I do not think they are right now, so lubricating them is the way to go. -- Tanguy |
Dry lube?
On 4/26/2018 9:36 AM, Sepp Ruf wrote:
AMuzi wrote: On 4/26/2018 4:03 AM, Tanguy Ortolo wrote: Frank Krygowski, 2018-04-25 17:43+0200: On 4/25/2018 4:54 AM, Tanguy Ortolo wrote: One other thing, I have seen suggestions of lubricating only the chain, and not the sprockets and derailleur. However, I think the derailleur sprockets still need some lubrication to roll with few friction, do they not? No. The friction between the chain's rollers and the sprocket teeth is negligible. And if you add any lubricant to those surfaces, the lubricant will soon be filled with abrasive grime. That will accelerate wear and probably increase the friction. I was more thinking about the friction between the derailleur sprockets and their axles, actually. Indeed those squeak when run dry and the steel ones show bright red oxide from heat. Yes, do lubricate them, which for most models means slacking the bolt to get your lubricant inside. But Tanguy has so little time! When damaged more than the rest of the deraileur has aged, just get cheap sealed bearing jockey wheels, fit and "forget" https://tacx.com/fr/products/galets-de-derailleurs/ We like those - great product and well priced too. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
Dry lube?
On 4/26/2018 4:46 AM, Tanguy Ortolo wrote:
James, 2018-04-26 01:55+0200: Like Frank said, wax alone allows and the chain will squeak sooner rather than later. I use much more oil than Frank though, about 50/50 candle wax and EP gear oil. Paraffin oil is also apparently quite good. Thank you for the advice! My mixture cost me sweet F.A., and lasts at least 1000km between applications including some wet rides. Heat the mix in an old cooking pot until it is liquid and immerse the chain. Use a Connex quick link for convenience. So, to sum up, I can get some paraffin wax, put it in a pot with some oil (paraffin or motor oil), heat it until it melts, stir to make an homogeneous mix, and immerse my previously cleaned chain in it. All right? The mixture will solidify again so I can then remove it from the pot and store it in some jar. It's the best of three worlds. 1/ Long chain life. 2/ Low maintenance. 3/ Low cost. Great, I have to try this! With some adaptation to enhance the wife acceptance factor, because I expect some trouble if I use a kitchen pot for such a mechanic work. :-D The other common advice with this method: Don't heat the wax-oil mix indoors over an open flame. Supposedly the vapors are flammable and any resulting fire can be fierce and difficult to extinguish. So your gas kitchen stove is out. Some people say it's OK if you use that stove but have the wax in a double boiler, to keep the temperature down to 100C. I've heated a pot of wax outdoors, single pot (not double boiler) over a camping stove and had no fire. But I'd be very cautious with a gas kitchen stove. I think some people have used a microwave oven to melt the wax, but I'm not sure. -- - Frank Krygowski |
Dry lube?
Tanguy Ortolo wrote:
Dear cyclists, After years using wet lubes in all conditions (currently, a specific chain oil with PTFE from 3in1 http://www.3-en-un.fr/produit/lubrifiant-chaines-et-cables-250ml/), and being used to seing my chain getting very dirty, I have just learnt that I may avoid this by using dry lube instead. Actually, I have heard of one specific product, the Squirt dry lube http://www.squirtlube.com/our-products/. It is about twice more expensive than the lubricant I am currently using, but it is supposed to reduce cleaning work, and if it does make the chain cleaner, it may as well reduce its wear and extend its life. So, have any of you tried that lubricant, or any other dry one? Would you recommend it rather than wet lubes? My most important usage is a daily commuting through suburb streets and forest paths (in all weather conditions, therfore quite muddy when it rains, but now that summer is coming, it is going to be rather dry). Depends on use case, for the commute bike, dry lube which resists gumming up, which if your doing 400+ commuting miles per month is handy, for the MTB/Gravel bike much more likely to use a wet lube as itâs much more likely to be bog snorkelling in them! And I clean them after every ride or close enough. Roger Merriman |
Dry lube?
On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 11:50:03 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote: On 4/26/2018 4:46 AM, Tanguy Ortolo wrote: James, 2018-04-26 01:55+0200: Like Frank said, wax alone allows and the chain will squeak sooner rather than later. I use much more oil than Frank though, about 50/50 candle wax and EP gear oil. Paraffin oil is also apparently quite good. Thank you for the advice! My mixture cost me sweet F.A., and lasts at least 1000km between applications including some wet rides. Heat the mix in an old cooking pot until it is liquid and immerse the chain. Use a Connex quick link for convenience. So, to sum up, I can get some paraffin wax, put it in a pot with some oil (paraffin or motor oil), heat it until it melts, stir to make an homogeneous mix, and immerse my previously cleaned chain in it. All right? The mixture will solidify again so I can then remove it from the pot and store it in some jar. It's the best of three worlds. 1/ Long chain life. 2/ Low maintenance. 3/ Low cost. Great, I have to try this! With some adaptation to enhance the wife acceptance factor, because I expect some trouble if I use a kitchen pot for such a mechanic work. :-D The other common advice with this method: Don't heat the wax-oil mix indoors over an open flame. Supposedly the vapors are flammable and any resulting fire can be fierce and difficult to extinguish. So your gas kitchen stove is out. Some people say it's OK if you use that stove but have the wax in a double boiler, to keep the temperature down to 100C. I've heated a pot of wax outdoors, single pot (not double boiler) over a camping stove and had no fire. But I'd be very cautious with a gas kitchen stove. I think some people have used a microwave oven to melt the wax, but I'm not sure. I would be a bit apprehensive about heating any hydrocarbon over an open flame.... after all their most important property is that they burn. I've recently been using an electric cooking pot, from the shape perhaps a "Wok", that I believe cost me about $10.00 and it even has a thermostat. -- Cheers, John B. |
Dry lube?
On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 08:46:02 -0000 (UTC), Tanguy Ortolo
wrote: Great, I have to try this! With some adaptation to enhance the wife acceptance factor, because I expect some trouble if I use a kitchen pot for such a mechanic work. :-D Once used for lubricating oil, a pot can never be food-safe again[1]. Buy a small pot at Goodwill, and store your wax in it. If the lid has a knob, you can attach it to the pot with rubber bands. (Assuming that there are two protrusions on the pot.) Since the stuff can't spill once cool, you could buy a lidless pot and store it in a plastic bag to keep the dust out. Don't forget that the wax must be melted over or in hot water, never directly over fire or a stove coil. As someone who used to cater house fires, I can tell you that when oil or wax gets too hot, Really Nasty things happen. (NEVER throw a skillet of blazing bacon into a sink filled with water.) ========== [1] Well, it can, but it has to be an expensive pot to be worth the trouble. We used tin cans as disposable pans for melting paraffin when I was a child, and paraffin *is* food safe. But very, very hard to get out of a pot. (I've forgotten what children were doing with molten paraffin, but Mom made very sure I didn't forget how to melt it.) -- Joy Beeson joy beeson at comcast dot net http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/ |
Dry lube?
On 26/04/18 18:46, Tanguy Ortolo wrote:
James, 2018-04-26 01:55+0200: Like Frank said, wax alone allows and the chain will squeak sooner rather than later. I use much more oil than Frank though, about 50/50 candle wax and EP gear oil. Paraffin oil is also apparently quite good. Thank you for the advice! My mixture cost me sweet F.A., and lasts at least 1000km between applications including some wet rides. Heat the mix in an old cooking pot until it is liquid and immerse the chain. Use a Connex quick link for convenience. So, to sum up, I can get some paraffin wax, put it in a pot with some oil (paraffin or motor oil), heat it until it melts, stir to make an homogeneous mix, and immerse my previously cleaned chain in it. All right? I used 80/90 EP gear oil. I don't know the effect of motor oil, but otherwise yes. My wife had no use for a large candle. The wax cost me nothing, and is scented ;-) The mixture will solidify again so I can then remove it from the pot and store it in some jar. I just leave mine in the pot ready for next time. Put a lid on it so it doesn't fill with dust and so on. It's the best of three worlds. 1/ Long chain life. 2/ Low maintenance. 3/ Low cost. Great, I have to try this! With some adaptation to enhance the wife acceptance factor, because I expect some trouble if I use a kitchen pot for such a mechanic work. :-D A second hand store / opportunity shop would be a place to find a cheap cooking pot. People say heating wax & oil over a flame is dangerous, but I've not had any bad experiences. Just be careful and be aware the wax solution will likely burn you while it is hot. Handle the chain with pliers or put a piece of wire through a link so you can dip it in, leave it for a couple of minutes, and lift it out. Wipe off any excess that doesn't drip off. -- JS |
Dry lube?
On 27/04/18 01:50, Frank Krygowski wrote:
The other common advice with this method: Don't heat the wax-oil mix indoors over an open flame. Supposedly the vapors are flammable and any resulting fire can be fierce and difficult to extinguish. So your gas kitchen stove is out. I've used an indoor gas stove and now an outdoor gas BBQ. I'm waiting for a fire. Not to say it can't happen, but it might be more likely if the mix is spilled. Care is necessary. -- JS |
Dry lube?
On 27/04/18 10:14, John B. wrote:
I would be a bit apprehensive about heating any hydrocarbon over an open flame.... after all their most important property is that they burn. So does most cooking oil. The interesting bit is the flashpoint. Motor oil seems fairly high. 420-485F = 215C. Similar for paraffin wax at 250C. Food oil is a bit higher at 315C But keep in mind, you usually see smoke before fire. If the solution is smoking hot, turn off the heat source. Or use a thermometer to monitor the temperature and keep it at or below 150C to be safe. -- JS |
Dry lube?
Frank Krygowski, 2018-04-26 17:50+0200:
The other common advice with this method: Don't heat the wax-oil mix indoors over an open flame. Supposedly the vapors are flammable and any resulting fire can be fierce and difficult to extinguish. So your gas kitchen stove is out. I already fought such a fire, due to the negligence of a friend that was melting wax to make some torchs. It was on an electric kitchen stove, but he left if unattended for so long that the was started to boil, and the vapor autoignited! It made a flame of about one meter, which I managed to shut off by simply covering it with a metal lid, and waiting for the wax to cool down. You clearly do not want that to happen in your kitchen, and it is useful to know that it can happen even with no external flame. -- Tanguy |
Dry lube?
Tanguy Ortolo, 2018-04-26 10:46+0200:
Great, I have to try this! With some adaptation to enhance the wife acceptance factor, because I expect some trouble if I use a kitchen pot for such a mechanic work. :-D In fact, I think I will use a glass jar initially meant for jam, both as a double boiler and to store afterwards. The glass will make the melting slower of course, but it will resist the heat and it has a lid. I am already using a jar full of white gas to clean the chain, so that would just be another jar with a different label. Now I wonder, after I have done my mixture and deep-waxed the chain, I could add some solvent to keep that liquid, and use that later to lubricate the chain without removing it, could I not? Once applied, can I expect the solvent to evaporate, leaving only the paraffin wax and oil mixture? I will try that on something else anyway, preparing a small amount of that and leaving it on something metallic to see the result after a couple of hours. -- Tanguy |
Dry lube?
On 4/24/2018 2:06 AM, Tanguy Ortolo wrote:
Dear cyclists, After years using wet lubes in all conditions (currently, a specific chain oil with PTFE from 3in1 http://www.3-en-un.fr/produit/lubrifiant-chaines-et-cables-250ml/), and being used to seing my chain getting very dirty, I have just learnt that I may avoid this by using dry lube instead. Actually, I have heard of one specific product, the Squirt dry lube http://www.squirtlube.com/our-products/. It is about twice more expensive than the lubricant I am currently using, but it is supposed to reduce cleaning work, and if it does make the chain cleaner, it may as well reduce its wear and extend its life. So, have any of you tried that lubricant, or any other dry one? Would you recommend it rather than wet lubes? My most important usage is a daily commuting through suburb streets and forest paths (in all weather conditions, therfore quite muddy when it rains, but now that summer is coming, it is going to be rather dry). I recall when I was in my teens and read somewhere about molybdenum disulfide being a great dry lubricant for bicycle chains. But it had the same issue as most dry lubricants, you can't get them inside the chain where they're needed, it just makes a mess on the outside. It was difficult to find at the time, but one distributor sold me a single can. Hot wax at least can get inside the rollers and sleeves, but once it cools and hardens it is quickly displaced. That's why all the experts advise against hot wax. It causes all sorts of problems. Of course some people mix the wax with some kind of oil to ensure that there is some actual lubricant inside, but they could just leave out the wax and they'd be just as well off. But for some people. recreational chain cleaning and lubing is a hobby, so if it make them happy then there's no harm in messing with pots, pans, double boilers, etc. Whatever lubricant you use, be sure that it can penetrate inside. Foaming chain lubes for non-O ring chains are the best at lubricating, but of course you'll have to wipe the excess off the outside of the chain after you apply it. |
Dry lube?
On Fri, 27 Apr 2018 16:41:54 +1000, James
wrote: On 27/04/18 10:14, John B. wrote: I would be a bit apprehensive about heating any hydrocarbon over an open flame.... after all their most important property is that they burn. So does most cooking oil. The interesting bit is the flashpoint. Motor oil seems fairly high. 420-485F = 215C. Similar for paraffin wax at 250C. Food oil is a bit higher at 315C But keep in mind, you usually see smoke before fire. If the solution is smoking hot, turn off the heat source. Or use a thermometer to monitor the temperature and keep it at or below 150C to be safe. I use a Chinese made electric "Wok". I let the pot melt the wax and cycle through at least one thermostat cycle and then drop in the chain and leave it for two cycles. By this time the chain is at approximately the same temperature as the liquid wax. I then remove the chain from the wax and "hang it up to dry" until it reaches ambient temperatures and then reinstall it. When the chain is first handled after waxing it is slightly stiff proving that the wax has penetrated into the inner regions of the chain. As for those that assert that the wax is squeezed out of the chain I can only comment that I took a couple of links apart on a waxed chain after use and the wax was not squeezed out of the links. It was still there. -- Cheers, John B. |
Dry lube?
On 4/27/2018 6:29 PM, sms wrote:
Hot wax at least can get inside the rollers and sleeves, but once it cools and hardens it is quickly displaced. That's why all the experts advise against hot wax. It causes all sorts of problems. sigh Mr. Scharf AKA "sms" never tires of spreading misinformation. See https://www.bikeradar.com/us/road/ne...formula-36424/ http://www.velonews.com/2013/03/bike...ith-wax_279148 There are other sources I could quote or link. But anyone new to this group should understand, Scharf's definition of "expert" is: "someone who happens to agree with Scharf." -- - Frank Krygowski |
Dry lube?
On Fri, 27 Apr 2018 23:25:52 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote: On 4/27/2018 6:29 PM, sms wrote: Hot wax at least can get inside the rollers and sleeves, but once it cools and hardens it is quickly displaced. That's why all the experts advise against hot wax. It causes all sorts of problems. sigh Mr. Scharf AKA "sms" never tires of spreading misinformation. See https://www.bikeradar.com/us/road/ne...formula-36424/ http://www.velonews.com/2013/03/bike...ith-wax_279148 There are other sources I could quote or link. But anyone new to this group should understand, Scharf's definition of "expert" is: "someone who happens to agree with Scharf." Well he is a politician now and isn't that what politicians do? Make loud, positive, comments with the assumption that if they talk loud enough someone will listen. -- Cheers, John B. |
Dry lube?
On Saturday, April 28, 2018 at 5:25:55 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/27/2018 6:29 PM, sms wrote: Hot wax at least can get inside the rollers and sleeves, but once it cools and hardens it is quickly displaced. That's why all the experts advise against hot wax. It causes all sorts of problems. sigh Mr. Scharf AKA "sms" never tires of spreading misinformation. See https://www.bikeradar.com/us/road/ne...formula-36424/ http://www.velonews.com/2013/03/bike...ith-wax_279148 There are other sources I could quote or link. But anyone new to this group should understand, Scharf's definition of "expert" is: "someone who happens to agree with Scharf." -- - Frank Krygowski Stop, stop it is getting into a religion discussion already. Lou |
Dry lube?
wrote:
On Saturday, April 28, 2018 at 5:25:55 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 4/27/2018 6:29 PM, sms wrote: Hot wax at least can get inside the rollers and sleeves, but once it cools and hardens it is quickly displaced. That's why all the experts advise against hot wax. It causes all sorts of problems. sigh Mr. Scharf AKA "sms" never tires of spreading misinformation. See https://www.bikeradar.com/us/road/ne...formula-36424/ http://www.velonews.com/2013/03/bike...ith-wax_279148 There are other sources I could quote or link. But anyone new to this group should understand, Scharf's definition of "expert" is: "someone who happens to agree with Scharf." -- - Frank Krygowski Stop, stop it is getting into a religion discussion already. Lou Oh yeah?! Well my God's chain lasts longer than your God's chain. |
Dry lube?
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Dry lube?
On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 10:19:23 -0700, sms
wrote: For a good chain lube, that penetrates into the chain use PJ1. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00AAGEF96 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000UKH86Y https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000GV978Y "Features a foaming action that penetrates into the pins and rollers Specially optimized for a standard non-O-ring chains" You can't be serious. The pins and rollers are made from steel. I don't see how PJ1 can penetrate solid steel unless you also prefer to ride on sintered steel or steel sponge (if there is such a thing). The promo page (first URL above) also says: "After penetrating the inside of the chain, the lube becomes a sticky lubricant that bounces back or has a "memory" effect that withstands the continual mechanical stress of the chain." Oil is incompressible and does not bounce. If you want a good simulation of how bouncy oil works, fill the brake lines of your car with air bubbles and try using the brakes. Kinda looks like the stuff was made for motorcycles, not bicycles: "Specially optimized for a standard non-O-ring chains, yet is O-Ring safe and compatible with either type of motorcycle chain." This one is great: "New super tacky formulation reduces dirty fly-off, displaces and repels water, protects against rust and corrosion, extending sprocket and chain life." In other words, it's super sticky and both collects and attracts dirt. In my never humble opinion, the product might be good for motorcycle chain, but is probably the same as chainsaw bar oil for bicycles. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
Dry lube?
On 4/28/2018 10:19 AM, sms wrote:
On 4/28/2018 1:30 AM, wrote: Stop, stop it is getting into a religion discussion already. Can't stop. Can't stop. Worried that someone on the Internet will believe Frank, as unlikely as that might seem to most people here. The priorities of folks on usenet. Sheesh. -Mark J. |
Dry lube?
On Saturday, April 28, 2018 at 5:45:46 PM UTC+1, Ralph Barone wrote:
wrote: On Saturday, April 28, 2018 at 5:25:55 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 4/27/2018 6:29 PM, sms wrote: Hot wax at least can get inside the rollers and sleeves, but once it cools and hardens it is quickly displaced. That's why all the experts advise against hot wax. It causes all sorts of problems. sigh Mr. Scharf AKA "sms" never tires of spreading misinformation. See https://www.bikeradar.com/us/road/ne...formula-36424/ http://www.velonews.com/2013/03/bike...ith-wax_279148 There are other sources I could quote or link. But anyone new to this group should understand, Scharf's definition of "expert" is: "someone who happens to agree with Scharf." -- - Frank Krygowski Stop, stop it is getting into a religion discussion already. Lou Oh yeah?! Well my God's chain lasts longer than your God's chain. Heretic! |
Dry lube?
On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 10:19:23 -0700, sms
wrote: On 4/28/2018 1:30 AM, wrote: Stop, stop it is getting into a religion discussion already. Can't stop. Can't stop. Worried that someone on the Internet will believe Frank, as unlikely as that might seem to most people here. Hmm, who do you want to believe long-time bicycle shop owners & expert bicycle mechanics, chain experts, and Jobst, or Frank? Tough decision--not. What the Experts say About Chain Waxing: "When wax was popular, we'd get customers coming in all the time complaining about shifting problems on their bikes. Removed the wax and lubed with conventional stuff and voila, shifting back to normal." Mike Jacoubowsky, co-owner of Chain Reaction Bicycles. "Wax is not mobile and cannot return to a location from which it has been removed by rotation of one part on another." Jobst Brandt, author of The Bicycle Wheel "If you use dry lube or wax, follow product directions and use it often. In some cases, dry lube should be used for every ride. It wears off very quickly and no new lube can flow to the critical wear areas." Craig Metalcraft, manufacturer of Super Link III. "Downsides of the wax approach include the fact that it is a great deal of trouble, and that wax is probably not as good a lubricant as oil or grease." Sheldon Brown For a good chain lube, that penetrates into the chain use PJ1. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00AAGEF96 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000UKH86Y https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000GV978Y "Features a foaming action that penetrates into the pins and rollers Specially optimized for a standard non-O-ring chains" Very obviously you seem to have ignored https://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/...formula-36424/ Which describes the formulation of the chain lube that resulted in the lowest friction losses of all chain lubes tested for an article in BikeRadar. Or maybe https://www.friction-facts.com/#simple-forum-post-55 which gives some indication of what the industry thinks of Jason Smith the owner of Friction Facts. "Thanks to Friction Facts, we now have some better data to help us make an informed decision." -Cycling News "Jason is closer to solving the black art of drivetrain friction reduction than anybody" -Slowtwitch "The data is there, and it is compelling." -Lava Magazine But of course as Jason seems to have by actual testing disagreed with all of your "experts" I'm sure that you will ignore his findings. But Ayn Rand once said: "We can ignore reality, but we cannot ignore the consequences of ignoring reality." -- Cheers, John B. |
Dry lube?
On Saturday, April 28, 2018 at 7:19:26 PM UTC+2, sms wrote:
On 4/28/2018 1:30 AM, wrote: Stop, stop it is getting into a religion discussion already. Can't stop. Can't stop. Worried that someone on the Internet will believe Frank, as unlikely as that might seem to most people here. Hmm, who do you want to believe long-time bicycle shop owners & expert bicycle mechanics, chain experts, and Jobst, or Frank? Tough decision--not. What the Experts say About Chain Waxing: "When wax was popular, we'd get customers coming in all the time complaining about shifting problems on their bikes. Removed the wax and lubed with conventional stuff and voila, shifting back to normal." Mike Jacoubowsky, co-owner of Chain Reaction Bicycles. "Wax is not mobile and cannot return to a location from which it has been removed by rotation of one part on another." Jobst Brandt, author of The Bicycle Wheel "If you use dry lube or wax, follow product directions and use it often. In some cases, dry lube should be used for every ride. It wears off very quickly and no new lube can flow to the critical wear areas." Craig Metalcraft, manufacturer of Super Link III. "Downsides of the wax approach include the fact that it is a great deal of trouble, and that wax is probably not as good a lubricant as oil or grease." Sheldon Brown For a good chain lube, that penetrates into the chain use PJ1. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00AAGEF96 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000UKH86Y https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000GV978Y "Features a foaming action that penetrates into the pins and rollers Specially optimized for a standard non-O-ring chains" For the record: Jobst didn't keep up with latest developments the last 10 years he was around, I disagreed with some of Sheldons statements and Mike had als o some personal preferences and opinions. Lou |
Dry lube?
On 4/28/2018 12:46 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 10:19:23 -0700, sms wrote: For a good chain lube, that penetrates into the chain use PJ1. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00AAGEF96 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000UKH86Y https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000GV978Y "Features a foaming action that penetrates into the pins and rollers Specially optimized for a standard non-O-ring chains" You can't be serious. The pins and rollers are made from steel. I don't see how PJ1 can penetrate solid steel unless you also prefer to ride on sintered steel or steel sponge (if there is such a thing). I don't think that you understand how these foaming chain lubes work. It's a very thin foaming solvent that penetrates inside the chain, carrying the lubricant with it. Then the solvent evaporates and the lubricant is thick enough that it doesn't just leak out. It's the same way liquid hot wax gets into the chain, but the wax hardens and is quickly rubbed off. That's why this observation "If you use dry lube or wax, follow product directions and use it often. In some cases, dry lube should be used for every ride. It wears off very quickly and no new lube can flow to the critical wear areas" is especially relevant. Or as one manufacturer states "As the foam breaks, the lubricant penetrates into wire rope and roller chain mechanisms, depositing a molybdenum disulfide based grease to provide superior lubricating properties to surfaces." I don't think it should surprise anyone that the best lubricant for a chain is a lubricant designed for a chain. |
Dry lube?
On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 23:01:25 -0700, sms
wrote: On 4/28/2018 12:46 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 10:19:23 -0700, sms wrote: For a good chain lube, that penetrates into the chain use PJ1. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00AAGEF96 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000UKH86Y https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000GV978Y "Features a foaming action that penetrates into the pins and rollers Specially optimized for a standard non-O-ring chains" You can't be serious. The pins and rollers are made from steel. I don't see how PJ1 can penetrate solid steel unless you also prefer to ride on sintered steel or steel sponge (if there is such a thing). I don't think that you understand how these foaming chain lubes work. It's a very thin foaming solvent that penetrates inside the chain, carrying the lubricant with it. Then the solvent evaporates and the lubricant is thick enough that it doesn't just leak out. It's the same way liquid hot wax gets into the chain, but the wax hardens and is quickly rubbed off. That's why this observation "If you use dry lube or wax, follow product directions and use it often. In some cases, dry lube should be used for every ride. It wears off very quickly and no new lube can flow to the critical wear areas" is especially relevant. Or as one manufacturer states "As the foam breaks, the lubricant penetrates into wire rope and roller chain mechanisms, depositing a molybdenum disulfide based grease to provide superior lubricating properties to surfaces." I don't think it should surprise anyone that the best lubricant for a chain is a lubricant designed for a chain. One can only gaze in wonder at the foaming solvent? But out of curiosity can you comment on exactly what this foaming solvent is? Who makes it? Where it can be obtained? I ask as we were using grease and heavy oils diluted with a volatile thinner to lube crane lift cables at least 40 years ago and I don't believe that it was a new process even then, while you appear to be describing something that is NEW and BETTER, apparently because it foams? Another thing that is puzzling is that while you are recommending this remarkable foaming stuff and don't actually say so your language seems to hint that without foam it just won't penetrate into the chain links yet I have worked on chain driven equipment with chains that were ten or more years old. Still perfectly usable and no foam at all. Just a SAE 40 oil bath. So the question is, is foam really necessary? By the way, here is a company that makes wax lubrication for industrial use as a chain lubricant. https://www.klueber.com/en/lubricant...icating-waxes/ In fact they write: "Dust, dirt and lint influence the function of your chains in the long run. Our lubricating waxes protect this important component against contamination and premature wear. They should also be your first choice for chains in frequent contact with humidity." "Our lubricating waxes for chains, for example Klüberplus SK 11-299, are applied via warm immersion baths. Once dried, the lubricant protects your component for an extended time, sometimes even for the entire lifetime of the chain." I find it strange that a company manufactures a wax specifically to lubricate chains while a group of people, apparently with no experience in the field are shouting "won't work!" -- Cheers, John B. |
Dry lube?
On Sunday, April 29, 2018 at 10:52:15 AM UTC+2, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 23:01:25 -0700, sms wrote: On 4/28/2018 12:46 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 10:19:23 -0700, sms wrote: For a good chain lube, that penetrates into the chain use PJ1. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00AAGEF96 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000UKH86Y https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000GV978Y "Features a foaming action that penetrates into the pins and rollers Specially optimized for a standard non-O-ring chains" You can't be serious. The pins and rollers are made from steel. I don't see how PJ1 can penetrate solid steel unless you also prefer to ride on sintered steel or steel sponge (if there is such a thing). I don't think that you understand how these foaming chain lubes work. It's a very thin foaming solvent that penetrates inside the chain, carrying the lubricant with it. Then the solvent evaporates and the lubricant is thick enough that it doesn't just leak out. It's the same way liquid hot wax gets into the chain, but the wax hardens and is quickly rubbed off. That's why this observation "If you use dry lube or wax, follow product directions and use it often. In some cases, dry lube should be used for every ride. It wears off very quickly and no new lube can flow to the critical wear areas" is especially relevant. Or as one manufacturer states "As the foam breaks, the lubricant penetrates into wire rope and roller chain mechanisms, depositing a molybdenum disulfide based grease to provide superior lubricating properties to surfaces." I don't think it should surprise anyone that the best lubricant for a chain is a lubricant designed for a chain. One can only gaze in wonder at the foaming solvent? But out of curiosity can you comment on exactly what this foaming solvent is? Who makes it? Where it can be obtained? I ask as we were using grease and heavy oils diluted with a volatile thinner to lube crane lift cables at least 40 years ago and I don't believe that it was a new process even then, while you appear to be describing something that is NEW and BETTER, apparently because it foams? Another thing that is puzzling is that while you are recommending this remarkable foaming stuff and don't actually say so your language seems to hint that without foam it just won't penetrate into the chain links yet I have worked on chain driven equipment with chains that were ten or more years old. Still perfectly usable and no foam at all. Just a SAE 40 oil bath. It is easy to penetrate a chain. The lube just has to have a low enough viscosity that is all. Thats why wax based lubes have some volatile component. The cheapest is iso propanol. Oil has a low enough viscosity of his own. So the question is, is foam really necessary? Of course not. Lou |
Dry lube?
On 4/28/2018 10:21 PM, wrote:
On Saturday, April 28, 2018 at 7:19:26 PM UTC+2, sms wrote: On 4/28/2018 1:30 AM, wrote: Stop, stop it is getting into a religion discussion already. Can't stop. Can't stop. Worried that someone on the Internet will believe Frank, as unlikely as that might seem to most people here. Hmm, who do you want to believe long-time bicycle shop owners & expert bicycle mechanics, chain experts, and Jobst, or Frank? Tough decision--not. What the Experts say About Chain Waxing: "When wax was popular, we'd get customers coming in all the time complaining about shifting problems on their bikes. Removed the wax and lubed with conventional stuff and voila, shifting back to normal." Mike Jacoubowsky, co-owner of Chain Reaction Bicycles. "Wax is not mobile and cannot return to a location from which it has been removed by rotation of one part on another." Jobst Brandt, author of The Bicycle Wheel "If you use dry lube or wax, follow product directions and use it often. In some cases, dry lube should be used for every ride. It wears off very quickly and no new lube can flow to the critical wear areas." Craig Metalcraft, manufacturer of Super Link III. "Downsides of the wax approach include the fact that it is a great deal of trouble, and that wax is probably not as good a lubricant as oil or grease." Sheldon Brown For a good chain lube, that penetrates into the chain use PJ1. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00AAGEF96 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000UKH86Y https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000GV978Y "Features a foaming action that penetrates into the pins and rollers Specially optimized for a standard non-O-ring chains" For the record: Jobst didn't keep up with latest developments the last 10 years he was around, I disagreed with some of Sheldons statements and Mike had als o some personal preferences and opinions. Mike and Sheldon both worked at bicycle shops (Mike owns a shop) and if they take the time to explain the issues with hot waxing I think they are worth listening to. Jobst had a lot of opinions of course, but most were based on facts and logic, something that trumps the emotional feeling of hot waxing. Of course the trend now appears to be to mix hot wax with some sort of oil. Once the wax hardens and is displaced then at least the oil is still providing lubrication, but the wax is not, and there's less oil than if you just used oil alone. If you eliminate the wax from the mixture of wax and oil then it would be fine to hot wax. The hot oil is thinner than cold oil and will penetrate inside before cooling and thickening. Similar to how the foaming chain lube is thin when it comes out and thickens as the carrier evaporates. The two key things in chain lubrication a 1. Ensure that the lubricant doesn't just remain on the surface but penetrates into the pins and rollers. It needs to be thin to do this. 2. Ensure that the lubricant is not quickly displaced. Solid lubricants like wax are not suitable unless you could rig something up that keeps the chain hot and the wax fluid. Maybe this butane torch https://www.harborfreight.com/butane-micro-torch-63170.html keeping the chain hot. |
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