DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS
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DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS
On Wednesday, October 4, 2017 at 9:52:38 AM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 4 Oct 2017 07:54:47 -0700 (PDT), wrote: OH JOY https://www.nytimes.com/video/techno...rless-car.html "Bikes May Have To Talk To Self-Driving Cars For Safety's Sake" http://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2017/07/24/537746346/bikes-may-have-to-talk-to-self-driving-cars-for-safetys-sake I guess the next step is a semi-self-driving-bicycle that detects road and vehicle hazards and takes over control of the bicycle if it detects something dangerous or unsafe. Hint: - Would you fly in an autonomous airplane? - Would you ride in a self driving bus or train? - How do you feel in a driverless elevator? - Would you really want to do the same in an automobile or bicycle? -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 Google Fairfield and Pittsburgh are over the horizon definitive, both ignore the now fact we can't hear an electric car DUH |
DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS
On Wed, 4 Oct 2017 14:36:59 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
On Wednesday, October 4, 2017 at 9:52:38 AM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Wed, 4 Oct 2017 07:54:47 -0700 (PDT), wrote: OH JOY https://www.nytimes.com/video/techno...rless-car.html "Bikes May Have To Talk To Self-Driving Cars For Safety's Sake" http://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2017/07/24/537746346/bikes-may-have-to-talk-to-self-driving-cars-for-safetys-sake I guess the next step is a semi-self-driving-bicycle that detects road and vehicle hazards and takes over control of the bicycle if it detects something dangerous or unsafe. Hint: - Would you fly in an autonomous airplane? - Would you ride in a self driving bus or train? - How do you feel in a driverless elevator? - Would you really want to do the same in an automobile or bicycle? Google Fairfield and Pittsburgh are over the horizon definitive, Nothing found. both ignore the now fact we can't hear an electric car "Electric cars are now required to make noise at low speeds so they don’t sneak up and kill us" https://www.theverge.com/2016/11/16/13651106/electric-car-noise-nhtsa-rule-blind-pedestrian-safety https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_vehicle_warning_sounds Sample sounds: https://web.archive.org/web/20130306092938/http://www.nhtsa.gov/SampleSounds I wonder how long it will take for drivers to substitute the sounds of horses, cattle stampede, steam trains, covered wagons, tanks, toys, and such? You didn't answer my question. Do you really want a semi-self-driving-bicycle? I'm told that it's for your safety. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS
On Wed, 04 Oct 2017 09:52:39 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote: On Wed, 4 Oct 2017 07:54:47 -0700 (PDT), wrote: OH JOY https://www.nytimes.com/video/techno...rless-car.html "Bikes May Have To Talk To Self-Driving Cars For Safety's Sake" http://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2017/07/24/537746346/bikes-may-have-to-talk-to-self-driving-cars-for-safetys-sake I guess the next step is a semi-self-driving-bicycle that detects road and vehicle hazards and takes over control of the bicycle if it detects something dangerous or unsafe. Hint: - Would you fly in an autonomous airplane? - Would you ride in a self driving bus or train? - How do you feel in a driverless elevator? - Would you really want to do the same in an automobile or bicycle? I believe that essentially most modern subway trains are computer controlled although they may have a "driver" in the control cab and I can't remember ever being in an elevator that had a driver :-) -- Cheers, John B. |
DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS
SUPER !
have not heard anything from them. |
DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS
On Thu, 05 Oct 2017 07:37:01 +0700, John B.
wrote: On Wed, 04 Oct 2017 09:52:39 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Wed, 4 Oct 2017 07:54:47 -0700 (PDT), wrote: OH JOY https://www.nytimes.com/video/techno...rless-car.html "Bikes May Have To Talk To Self-Driving Cars For Safety's Sake" http://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2017/07/24/537746346/bikes-may-have-to-talk-to-self-driving-cars-for-safetys-sake I guess the next step is a semi-self-driving-bicycle that detects road and vehicle hazards and takes over control of the bicycle if it detects something dangerous or unsafe. Hint: - Would you fly in an autonomous airplane? - Would you ride in a self driving bus or train? - How do you feel in a driverless elevator? - Would you really want to do the same in an automobile or bicycle? I believe that essentially most modern subway trains are computer controlled although they may have a "driver" in the control cab and I can't remember ever being in an elevator that had a driver :-) I live on the left coast of the USofA. We don't have subways except for BART. Subways are an east coast thing. Trains and subways have various levels of automation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automated_urban_metro_subway_systems#Degre es_of_Automation I think there has been sufficient experience to consider a self driving train to be safe. Probably same for an elevator. Airplanes have been able to takeoff, fly, and land without a pilot for many years. I'm not sure if the airlines actually do that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoland So, are you ready and willing to have your bicycle do many of the same things? Incidentally, the last time I rode in an elevator with an operator was in the late 1950's or early 1960's. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS
On 10/5/2017 12:37 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Thu, 05 Oct 2017 07:37:01 +0700, John B. wrote: On Wed, 04 Oct 2017 09:52:39 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Wed, 4 Oct 2017 07:54:47 -0700 (PDT), wrote: OH JOY https://www.nytimes.com/video/techno...rless-car.html "Bikes May Have To Talk To Self-Driving Cars For Safety's Sake" http://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2017/07/24/537746346/bikes-may-have-to-talk-to-self-driving-cars-for-safetys-sake I guess the next step is a semi-self-driving-bicycle that detects road and vehicle hazards and takes over control of the bicycle if it detects something dangerous or unsafe. Hint: - Would you fly in an autonomous airplane? - Would you ride in a self driving bus or train? - How do you feel in a driverless elevator? - Would you really want to do the same in an automobile or bicycle? I believe that essentially most modern subway trains are computer controlled although they may have a "driver" in the control cab and I can't remember ever being in an elevator that had a driver :-) I live on the left coast of the USofA. We don't have subways except for BART. Subways are an east coast thing. Trains and subways have various levels of automation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automated_urban_metro_subway_systems#Degre es_of_Automation I think there has been sufficient experience to consider a self driving train to be safe. Probably same for an elevator. Airplanes have been able to takeoff, fly, and land without a pilot for many years. I'm not sure if the airlines actually do that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoland So, are you ready and willing to have your bicycle do many of the same things? Incidentally, the last time I rode in an elevator with an operator was in the late 1950's or early 1960's. Pittsburgh International Airport uses self-driving subway shuttles to carry passengers between terminals. I've never experienced or even heard of a problem. -- - Frank Krygowski |
DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
:On Thu, 05 Oct 2017 07:37:01 +0700, John B. :wrote: :On Wed, 04 Oct 2017 09:52:39 -0700, Jeff Liebermann :wrote: : :On Wed, 4 Oct 2017 07:54:47 -0700 (PDT), wrote: : :OH JOY :https://www.nytimes.com/video/techno...rless-car.html : :"Bikes May Have To Talk To Self-Driving Cars For Safety's Sake" :http://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2017/07/24/537746346/bikes-may-have-to-talk-to-self-driving-cars-for-safetys-sake :I guess the next step is a semi-self-driving-bicycle that detects road :and vehicle hazards and takes over control of the bicycle if it :detects something dangerous or unsafe. : :Hint: :- Would you fly in an autonomous airplane? :- Would you ride in a self driving bus or train? :- How do you feel in a driverless elevator? :- Would you really want to do the same in an automobile or bicycle? :I believe that essentially most modern subway trains are computer :controlled although they may have a "driver" in the control cab and I :can't remember ever being in an elevator that had a driver :-) :I live on the left coast of the USofA. We don't have subways except :for BART. Subways are an east coast thing. :Trains and subways have various levels of automation: :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automated_urban_metro_subway_systems#Degre es_of_Automation :I think there has been sufficient experience to consider a self :driving train to be safe. Probably same for an elevator. Airplanes :have been able to takeoff, fly, and land without a pilot for many :years. I'm not sure if the airlines actually do that: :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoland :So, are you ready and willing to have your bicycle do many of the same :things? :Incidentally, the last time I rode in an elevator with an operator was :in the late 1950's or early 1960's. I rode one last month. (Fine Arts building in Chicago has completely manually operated elevators, operator has to stop in the right place.) -- This is a randomly numbered sig. |
DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS
For your reference, records indicate that
Jeff Liebermann wrote: I think there has been sufficient experience to consider a self driving train to be safe. Probably same for an elevator. It’s not even a question of experience, but of environment. Elevators operate in a very controlled space. It should come as no surprise that they were easy to automate a long time ago, and that people are comfortable with their automation. Trains also operate in a fairly restricted space. Being on rails, they’re essentially a low-hanging-fruit version of an autonomous vehicle. If they aren’t the *first* vehicles being universally controlled by computers, that technology is not road worthy. Airplanes have been able to takeoff, fly, and land without a pilot for many years. Air travel is “easy” because there’s very little in the way of physical restrictions on the vehicle. So, are you ready and willing to have your bicycle do many of the same things? Cars, motorcycles, and (lastly) bikes are used in *very* different conditions from those other vehicles. The driving environment is inherently messy, and the smaller the vehicle is the less equipment you can put on it to process that data. It doesn’t help that smaller vehicles will also be able to travel into places that a larger vehicle cannot. So, no, I wouldn’t want my bike to always operate like a car, just like I’m sure most people don’t want a car that operates like a train. Or, put another way, why would I go biking if the only thing I’m acting as is a weak engine? Just slap an electric motor on it at that point and make it like every other autonomous vehicle on the road. -- "Also . . . I can kill you with my brain." River Tam, Trash, Firefly |
DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS
no haven't heard any noises from slow trajectory electrics.
small cars like Fit and uh the low space coupe are so curious I feel an urge for driving one. Not like going for a Camo Cayenne but .... where we're headed here is Big Bro will ask us to carry a trashponder ...an appleponder or a goolex...there being then fewer appleponders over the road than on the berm. works gut no ? |
DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS
On Thursday, October 5, 2017 at 8:54:37 PM UTC-7, wrote:
no haven't heard any noises from slow trajectory electrics. small cars like Fit and uh the low space coupe are so curious I feel an urge for driving one. Not like going for a Camo Cayenne but .... where we're headed here is Big Bro will ask us to carry a trashponder ...an appleponder or a goolex...there being then fewer appleponders over the road than on the berm. works gut no ? A week ago I was riding along on a mountain road, I had been watching behind me but was passing the occasional home. I pull out a couple of inches to miss a crack in the pavement and a Transit van JUST missed me by mere inches. He had purposely aimed to pass me with his right mirror just missing me and so when I pulled over my elbow almost hit the side of his van. Mark that there was clear road and sight ahead so that he COULD have cleared me by feet. There was NO SOUND either of his approach or after he passed. Or at least none that could be heard above my vocal opinion of him. Looking in the rear window he gave a "then get out of my way" sign. Good thing he didn't stop. I don't believe these are made in electric so there should be laws that ALL vehicles should make sufficient sound to be detected. I know that you can hear a bicycle overtaking you so why not a motor vehicle? |
DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS
On Wed, 04 Oct 2017 09:52:39 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote: "Bikes May Have To Talk To Self-Driving Cars For Safety's Sake" http://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2017/07/24/537746346/bikes-may-have-to-talk-to-self-driving-cars-for-safetys-sake I guess the next step is a semi-self-driving-bicycle that detects road and vehicle hazards and takes over control of the bicycle if it detects something dangerous or unsafe. Hint: - Would you fly in an autonomous airplane? - Would you ride in a self driving bus or train? - How do you feel in a driverless elevator? - Would you really want to do the same in an automobile or bicycle? I can see that I'm not making my point, so I'll try again. It's highly likely that we're going to have driverless cars inflicted upon the American public either the choice of government edict. My guess(tm) is that such driverless cars will need to communicate with each other and with some manner of central traffic authority via some kind of mesh network. It's this network that controls which roadway the vehicles will travel, distributes the traffic to prevent bottlenecks, and hopefully helps prevent accidents. If bicycles are going to continue riding on the same roads, they will need to check into the same mesh network that will be used by cars, buses, trucks, and such in order to be deemed safe. Are you ready for the semi-self-driving-bicycle of the future? If not, you might want to practice your hands free bicycle riding. (Sorry for the delayed retort. I've been rather busy lately). -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS
On Sat, 07 Oct 2017 20:08:08 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote: On Wed, 04 Oct 2017 09:52:39 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote: "Bikes May Have To Talk To Self-Driving Cars For Safety's Sake" http://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2017/07/24/537746346/bikes-may-have-to-talk-to-self-driving-cars-for-safetys-sake I guess the next step is a semi-self-driving-bicycle that detects road and vehicle hazards and takes over control of the bicycle if it detects something dangerous or unsafe. Hint: - Would you fly in an autonomous airplane? - Would you ride in a self driving bus or train? - How do you feel in a driverless elevator? - Would you really want to do the same in an automobile or bicycle? I can see that I'm not making my point, so I'll try again. It's highly likely that we're going to have driverless cars inflicted upon the American public either the choice of government edict. My guess(tm) is that such driverless cars will need to communicate with each other and with some manner of central traffic authority via some kind of mesh network. It's this network that controls which roadway the vehicles will travel, distributes the traffic to prevent bottlenecks, and hopefully helps prevent accidents. If bicycles are going to continue riding on the same roads, they will need to check into the same mesh network that will be used by cars, buses, trucks, and such in order to be deemed safe. Are they actually made to communicate with each other? I see some tests being carried out (in Singapore) and in one case a driverless car drove into a lorry. Or maybe they only talk with each other :-) Are you ready for the semi-self-driving-bicycle of the future? If not, you might want to practice your hands free bicycle riding. (Sorry for the delayed retort. I've been rather busy lately). -- Cheers, John B. |
DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS
Yes but the personal transponder creates a net for .50 where a complete NET for DLC is millions
A system approach to DLC is more sci fi. BUT ! a commuting corridor system ? Need to check goo scolar We are concerned abt your health when you're absent. |
DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?h...analysis&btnG=
This exists now ...4 cars on green...go no go ramp entry Or instead of a jam at Ave Z, a system would acquire Z vehicles n process dribbling Z onto exit with TSD ...would that. Mean total involvement between all vehicles ? Is that possible ? where's the economic gain, social justice, common welfare ? |
DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS
On Saturday, October 7, 2017 at 8:08:00 PM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
It's highly likely that we're going to have driverless cars inflicted upon the American public either the choice of government edict. My guess(tm) is that such driverless cars will need to communicate with each other and with some manner of central traffic authority via some kind of mesh network. It's this network that controls which roadway the vehicles will travel, distributes the traffic to prevent bottlenecks, and hopefully helps prevent accidents. If bicycles are going to continue riding on the same roads, they will need to check into the same mesh network that will be used by cars, buses, trucks, and such in order to be deemed safe. Are you ready for the semi-self-driving-bicycle of the future? If not, you might want to practice your hands free bicycle riding. Jeff, I have no doubt that we will see self-driving cars on the road. Tesla already has a self driving feature. But because of the number of older cars on the road they will not operate via intercommunications but the same way you and I drive - by sensing everything around us. Will the government demand that everyone install a detector in their car so that self-driving cars can detect ahead of time that there is an asshole afloat in the sea of traffic? Do you really thing that hot-rodders are about to accept that? And from what I've seen of heavy traffic the worst drivers are those that appear to have the most money. So it's more likely that a bicyclist will be in far less danger from self driving cars that work properly that from driven cars. But note the "work properly" component. I do not think that will occur. |
DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS
On Saturday, October 7, 2017 at 10:02:04 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
Are they actually made to communicate with each other? I see some tests being carried out (in Singapore) and in one case a driverless car drove into a lorry. Or maybe they only talk with each other :-) When they have a strong connection. |
DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS
On Sun, 08 Oct 2017 12:01:58 +0700, John B.
wrote: Are they actually made to communicate with each other? I see some tests being carried out (in Singapore) and in one case a driverless car drove into a lorry. Or maybe they only talk with each other :-) No, or rather not yet. The "autonomous vehicle", which implies that all the intelligence is on-board, is being deprecated in favor of "driverless vehicle". I'm not sure of the status of "self-driving car" and "robo-car". When the carnage of totally autonomous vehicles is over, the obvious solution is to have the vehicle talk to other vehicles, potential hazards, traffic control devices, and perhaps bicycles. My guess(tm) is this will manifest itself in the form of an ad-hoc wireless network between all the autonomous vehicles and similar devices within range. In my never humble opinion, it's the only effective way to do traffic management over wide areas. The article: "Bikes May Have To Talk To Self-Driving Cars For Safety's Sake" http://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2017/07/24/537746346/bikes-may-have-to-talk-to-self-driving-cars-for-safetys-sake is the first one that I've seen that suggests a bicycle "talk" to an autonomous vehicle under the banner of safety. Would you want to ride your bicycle on a roadway full of bumper cars without any way to warn the cars to keep their distance? https://www.google.com/search?q=bumper+cars&tbm=isch Since everyone seems to be avoiding the question, perhaps rephrasing the question will help: Are you prepared to cede some of your bicycle autonomy in order to be allowed to ride the highway of the future? Are you ready for robo-bike? -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS
On Sun, 8 Oct 2017 06:20:29 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
Jeff, I have no doubt that we will see self-driving cars on the road. Tesla already has a self driving feature. But because of the number of older cars on the road they will not operate via intercommunications but the same way you and I drive - by sensing everything around us. The current idea of an autonomous car was borrowed from the DARPA trials of autonomous military vehicles used to carry supplies, munitions, and such. Someone thought it might be useful for solving the drunk driving, distracted driving, tailgating, and general stupidity behind the wheel, for the average driver. So, it's being sold on the basis of safety which will allegedly save 30,000 lives per year. That could have been done cheaper and easier by simply hiring chauffeurs for all the clueless drivers, but that's not how things work in our technological society. So, the first generation of driverless vehicles will be totally autonomous, with no connection to any other autonomous vehicles or road hazards because the infrastructure currently doesn't exist to do this. I predict that there will be a sufficiently large number of undesirable incidents, which will inspire an ad-hoc wireless network scheme to enhance the system and take the load off the autonomous computer trying to identify various objects. Will the government demand that everyone install a detector in their car so that self-driving cars can detect ahead of time that there is an asshole afloat in the sea of traffic? You're getting ahead of me a little, but yes, it will shove it down our safety conscious throats, exactly like seat belts, crash resistant bumpers, dashboard padding, air bags, autie-lock brakes, extra tail lights, and other expensive safety features. As an added bonus, we'll probably be blessed with a crude flight recorder, which already exists in some automobiles, to collect data during last few seconds before impact. In the name of safety, there's no limit to what can be justified. Do you really think that hot-rodders are about to accept that? Of course not. But I'm not talking about hot rod motorists. I'm talking about bicyclists, although I could lump the e-bike hot rodders into a similar class. Will cyclists accept computer control over their speed and direction in order to check into the roadway of the future? And from what I've seen of heavy traffic the worst drivers are those that appear to have the most money. Maybe. I've always suspected that the new car buyers were those who had totaled their previous vehicle. So it's more likely that a bicyclist will be in far less danger from self driving cars that work properly that from driven cars. But note the "work properly" component. I do not think that will occur. Less danger is not the goal. It's zero danger. With a bicycle mounted transponder or full blown directional control, the idea is to make the bicycle equal to any autonomous car and make it part of some kind of collision avoidance system. Relying on the pattern recognition software to do this for bicyclists strikes me as a bit risky. More later. One cord of firewood just arrive. Time to get some exercise stacking it. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS
On 10/8/2017 11:42 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 08 Oct 2017 12:01:58 +0700, John B. wrote: When the carnage of totally autonomous vehicles is over... Jeff, you are SUCH an optimist. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS
robo cycle ? no, again too expensive and again a .50 transponder suits an 11 year olds cycle.
the bottom line with cycle are kids n kids costs. |
DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS
For your reference, records indicate that
Jeff Liebermann wrote: It's highly likely that we're going to have driverless cars inflicted upon the American public either the choice of government edict. My guess(tm) is that such driverless cars will need to communicate with each other and with some manner of central traffic authority via some kind of mesh network. It's this network that controls which roadway the vehicles will travel, distributes the traffic to prevent bottlenecks, and hopefully helps prevent accidents. If bicycles are going to continue riding on the same roads, they will need to check into the same mesh network that will be used by cars, buses, trucks, and such in order to be deemed safe. That’s quite a leap. The streets are and will continue to be full of vehicles that *aren’t* going to be part of that sort of network for a long, long time. Add to that all sorts of other traffic like pedestrians and pets and things that fall from trucks, downed trees and rocks and snow drifts, and on and on. If autonomous vehicles can’t be safe without active communication, they are a danger to everyone and don’t belong on the road. There’s nothing special about bikes from that viewpoint. -- "Also . . . I can kill you with my brain." River Tam, Trash, Firefly |
DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS
On 10/8/2017 2:46 PM, Doc O'Leary wrote:
For your reference, records indicate that Jeff Liebermann wrote: It's highly likely that we're going to have driverless cars inflicted upon the American public either the choice of government edict. My guess(tm) is that such driverless cars will need to communicate with each other and with some manner of central traffic authority via some kind of mesh network. It's this network that controls which roadway the vehicles will travel, distributes the traffic to prevent bottlenecks, and hopefully helps prevent accidents. If bicycles are going to continue riding on the same roads, they will need to check into the same mesh network that will be used by cars, buses, trucks, and such in order to be deemed safe. That’s quite a leap. The streets are and will continue to be full of vehicles that *aren’t* going to be part of that sort of network for a long, long time. Add to that all sorts of other traffic like pedestrians and pets and things that fall from trucks, downed trees and rocks and snow drifts, and on and on. If autonomous vehicles can’t be safe without active communication, they are a danger to everyone and don’t belong on the road. There’s nothing special about bikes from that viewpoint. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1uYrMlhdWE Maybe it's in the algorithm, maybe it's not. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS
On Sun, 08 Oct 2017 12:33:07 -0500, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/8/2017 11:42 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Sun, 08 Oct 2017 12:01:58 +0700, John B. wrote: When the carnage of totally autonomous vehicles is over... Jeff, you are SUCH an optimist. I prefer realist. Few new technologies have ever been introduced without sacrificing a few people in order to learn what doesn't work. Prognostications, predictions, and pontifications: 1. Driverless cars will include optional ejection seats. 2. Someone on Kickstarter will offer a driverless eBike, probably for pickup and deliver errands. 3. Someone in government will suggest that the only safe way to operate a driverless car is to have it centrally managed by yet another inept and expensive state or federal agency. 4. Driving a driverless car will not require a driving license. 5. The Calif Vehicle Code will add a requirement for a MINIMUM speed for vehicles (including bicycles) that use the safe highway of the future. 6. Driverless anything will be required to make engine like noises to warn pedestrians and cyclists of their approach. eBikes are next. 7. There will be a problem with people getting out of their driverless vehicles, and then watching the driverless vehicle drive off into the sunset to who knows where. 8. The first successful driverless vehicle with be a large truck (because replacing the union driver has the highest payback). 9. Delivering a bomb by driverless vehicle will become a problem. 10. The shortest distance through traffic will NOT be where the driverless car wants to go. "Smarter Cycling Series: Watch out for laws that demand cyclists get out of the way of driverless cars" https://ecf.com/news-and-events/news/smarter-cycling-series-watch-out-laws-demand-cyclists-get-out-way-driverless -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS
On 10/8/2017 5:03 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 08 Oct 2017 12:33:07 -0500, AMuzi wrote: On 10/8/2017 11:42 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Sun, 08 Oct 2017 12:01:58 +0700, John B. wrote: When the carnage of totally autonomous vehicles is over... Jeff, you are SUCH an optimist. I prefer realist. Few new technologies have ever been introduced without sacrificing a few people in order to learn what doesn't work. Prognostications, predictions, and pontifications: 1. Driverless cars will include optional ejection seats. 2. Someone on Kickstarter will offer a driverless eBike, probably for pickup and deliver errands. 3. Someone in government will suggest that the only safe way to operate a driverless car is to have it centrally managed by yet another inept and expensive state or federal agency. 4. Driving a driverless car will not require a driving license. 5. The Calif Vehicle Code will add a requirement for a MINIMUM speed for vehicles (including bicycles) that use the safe highway of the future. 6. Driverless anything will be required to make engine like noises to warn pedestrians and cyclists of their approach. eBikes are next. 7. There will be a problem with people getting out of their driverless vehicles, and then watching the driverless vehicle drive off into the sunset to who knows where. 8. The first successful driverless vehicle with be a large truck (because replacing the union driver has the highest payback). 9. Delivering a bomb by driverless vehicle will become a problem. 10. The shortest distance through traffic will NOT be where the driverless car wants to go. "Smarter Cycling Series: Watch out for laws that demand cyclists get out of the way of driverless cars" https://ecf.com/news-and-events/news/smarter-cycling-series-watch-out-laws-demand-cyclists-get-out-way-driverless All interesting observations. What I meant about optimism was, what makes you think the carnage will slow or stop? -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS
On 10/8/2017 3:46 PM, Doc O'Leary wrote:
For your reference, records indicate that Jeff Liebermann wrote: It's highly likely that we're going to have driverless cars inflicted upon the American public either the choice of government edict. My guess(tm) is that such driverless cars will need to communicate with each other and with some manner of central traffic authority via some kind of mesh network. It's this network that controls which roadway the vehicles will travel, distributes the traffic to prevent bottlenecks, and hopefully helps prevent accidents. If bicycles are going to continue riding on the same roads, they will need to check into the same mesh network that will be used by cars, buses, trucks, and such in order to be deemed safe. That’s quite a leap. The streets are and will continue to be full of vehicles that *aren’t* going to be part of that sort of network for a long, long time. Agreed. Yesterday, a friend and I attended an event somewhere east of his home and west of mine. He arrived in his 1930 Model A. I arrived on my 1972 motorcycle. Also: We spent today walking and biking around a major city. That meant frequently negotiating with motorists as we walked across streets using crosswalks. As has been pointed out many times, the per-mile fatality rate for pedestrians is triple that of bicyclists. So: Transponders in shoes? -- - Frank Krygowski |
DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS
On Sunday, October 8, 2017 at 9:42:27 AM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 08 Oct 2017 12:01:58 +0700, John B. wrote: Are they actually made to communicate with each other? I see some tests being carried out (in Singapore) and in one case a driverless car drove into a lorry. Or maybe they only talk with each other :-) No, or rather not yet. The "autonomous vehicle", which implies that all the intelligence is on-board, is being deprecated in favor of "driverless vehicle". I'm not sure of the status of "self-driving car" and "robo-car". When the carnage of totally autonomous vehicles is over, the obvious solution is to have the vehicle talk to other vehicles, potential hazards, traffic control devices, and perhaps bicycles. My guess(tm) is this will manifest itself in the form of an ad-hoc wireless network between all the autonomous vehicles and similar devices within range. In my never humble opinion, it's the only effective way to do traffic management over wide areas. The article: "Bikes May Have To Talk To Self-Driving Cars For Safety's Sake" http://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2017/07/24/537746346/bikes-may-have-to-talk-to-self-driving-cars-for-safetys-sake is the first one that I've seen that suggests a bicycle "talk" to an autonomous vehicle under the banner of safety. Would you want to ride your bicycle on a roadway full of bumper cars without any way to warn the cars to keep their distance? https://www.google.com/search?q=bumper+cars&tbm=isch Since everyone seems to be avoiding the question, perhaps rephrasing the question will help: Are you prepared to cede some of your bicycle autonomy in order to be allowed to ride the highway of the future? Are you ready for robo-bike? Not only is it not over but it has hardly begun. If you think for one second that young men are going to turn their cars over to an artificial intelligence you're going to have to think a little harder on that Jeff. |
DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS
On Sunday, October 8, 2017 at 11:59:21 AM UTC-7, wrote:
robo cycle ? no, again too expensive and again a .50 transponder suits an 11 year olds cycle. the bottom line with cycle are kids n kids costs. Well, I don't think you have a tight grasp on transponders yet but I do agree with your general ideas. |
DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS
On Sunday, October 8, 2017 at 12:46:50 PM UTC-7, Doc O'Leary wrote:
For your reference, records indicate that Jeff Liebermann wrote: It's highly likely that we're going to have driverless cars inflicted upon the American public either the choice of government edict. My guess(tm) is that such driverless cars will need to communicate with each other and with some manner of central traffic authority via some kind of mesh network. It's this network that controls which roadway the vehicles will travel, distributes the traffic to prevent bottlenecks, and hopefully helps prevent accidents. If bicycles are going to continue riding on the same roads, they will need to check into the same mesh network that will be used by cars, buses, trucks, and such in order to be deemed safe. That’s quite a leap. The streets are and will continue to be full of vehicles that *aren’t* going to be part of that sort of network for a long, long time. Add to that all sorts of other traffic like pedestrians and pets and things that fall from trucks, downed trees and rocks and snow drifts, and on and on. If autonomous vehicles can’t be safe without active communication, they are a danger to everyone and don’t belong on the road. There’s nothing special about bikes from that viewpoint. I came down a street this morning at about 30 mph dodging pot holes the entire distance. Some 5 miles. No auto-car could do that. |
DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS
On Sunday, October 8, 2017 at 3:03:22 PM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 08 Oct 2017 12:33:07 -0500, AMuzi wrote: On 10/8/2017 11:42 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Sun, 08 Oct 2017 12:01:58 +0700, John B. wrote: When the carnage of totally autonomous vehicles is over... Jeff, you are SUCH an optimist. I prefer realist. Few new technologies have ever been introduced without sacrificing a few people in order to learn what doesn't work. Prognostications, predictions, and pontifications: 1. Driverless cars will include optional ejection seats. 2. Someone on Kickstarter will offer a driverless eBike, probably for pickup and deliver errands. 3. Someone in government will suggest that the only safe way to operate a driverless car is to have it centrally managed by yet another inept and expensive state or federal agency. 4. Driving a driverless car will not require a driving license. 5. The Calif Vehicle Code will add a requirement for a MINIMUM speed for vehicles (including bicycles) that use the safe highway of the future. 6. Driverless anything will be required to make engine like noises to warn pedestrians and cyclists of their approach. eBikes are next. 7. There will be a problem with people getting out of their driverless vehicles, and then watching the driverless vehicle drive off into the sunset to who knows where. 8. The first successful driverless vehicle with be a large truck (because replacing the union driver has the highest payback). 9. Delivering a bomb by driverless vehicle will become a problem. 10. The shortest distance through traffic will NOT be where the driverless car wants to go. "Smarter Cycling Series: Watch out for laws that demand cyclists get out of the way of driverless cars" https://ecf.com/news-and-events/news/smarter-cycling-series-watch-out-laws-demand-cyclists-get-out-way-driverless 1. Why? So that they can land into the pathway of another vehicle? 2. Driverless e-bikes will NEVER exist. 3. I'm absolutely sure you're correct. But they will be given the thumbs down. 4. That could be correct but is somewhat questionable. 5. No. 6. Bicycles are already too quiet. I almost bought it today when a man stopped for a car backing out of a slanted parking spot and then as I was passing pulled into that spot without ever signaling. He apologized but what difference would that have made if I was less alert. 7. That is absolutely the LAST worry that would be possible. They are tied to the occupant's phone. 8. No, you have to have driven a truck to understand that. 9. Possibly but unlikely. Too easily thwarted. 10. Err, auto-mapping already finds the quickest route to anywhere. |
DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS
On Sunday, October 8, 2017 at 4:22:13 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
All interesting observations. What I meant about optimism was, what makes you think the carnage will slow or stop? As I see it it will remain unchanged and driverless cars will not exist because they will be and remain unsafe as a truck rolling down a hill without a driver or brakes. |
DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS
On Sunday, October 8, 2017 at 7:20:16 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/8/2017 3:46 PM, Doc O'Leary wrote: For your reference, records indicate that Jeff Liebermann wrote: It's highly likely that we're going to have driverless cars inflicted upon the American public either the choice of government edict. My guess(tm) is that such driverless cars will need to communicate with each other and with some manner of central traffic authority via some kind of mesh network. It's this network that controls which roadway the vehicles will travel, distributes the traffic to prevent bottlenecks, and hopefully helps prevent accidents. If bicycles are going to continue riding on the same roads, they will need to check into the same mesh network that will be used by cars, buses, trucks, and such in order to be deemed safe. That’s quite a leap. The streets are and will continue to be full of vehicles that *aren’t* going to be part of that sort of network for a long, long time. Agreed. Yesterday, a friend and I attended an event somewhere east of his home and west of mine. He arrived in his 1930 Model A. I arrived on my 1972 motorcycle. Also: We spent today walking and biking around a major city. That meant frequently negotiating with motorists as we walked across streets using crosswalks. As has been pointed out many times, the per-mile fatality rate for pedestrians is triple that of bicyclists. So: Transponders in shoes? I rode past a school and there was a car show on the field consisting of virtually every sports car built before 1960. |
DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS
On Sun, 08 Oct 2017 18:22:03 -0500, AMuzi wrote:
What I meant about optimism was, what makes you think the carnage will slow or stop? Oh that. Well, it can go either way. Initially, it will be a balance between early adopters, who are generally competent and reasonably affluent, and customer tested beta quality software, which is certain to be FOB (full of bugs). These early adopters are generally willing to tolerate a few bugs and fatalities in order to win points among their peers for being a technical pioneer or adventurer. Once these are gone, the next wave of buyers will be less competent and less affluent. At the same time, the lessons learned by the fatal accidents of the early adopters will improve the software to keep the second wave of buyers alive long enough to run the driverless car into a commodity. Of course, government will try to help accelerate progress, but more likely will simply hinder progress with bureaucratic impediments. In other words, I don't have any idea if a driverless car will actually save 30,000 lives per year. It might simply kill the same number of drivers in a different manner. My guess(tm) is that the carnage will initially slow down but later increase as the software becomes old, communications protocols change, and the roads become even more clogged with additional driverless "things". Talk to anyone with an older car that has a dashboard GPS mapping display, who has tried to obtain an up to date map. The key to the puzzle is the word "safety". I've dealt with safety equipment in an industrial environment. Once safety interlocks and shields are introduced, the accident rate usually increases rather than decreases. That's because workers genuinely believe that the safety device will protect them from harm, no matter how stupid they act. So, they do risky things and soon learn that safety devices only protect against a limited number of possible actions. Methinks that much the same will be when driverless cars are introduced while chanting the "safety" mantra. Drivers will believe that the driverless car technology will protect them from harm, and proceed to perform new and original stupid stunts, testing the limits of the new technology. If the programmers have anticipated such stunts, then these drivers might live to tell the story at the next party. If not, the drivers become a statistic. I'm not worried because natural selection should be able to eliminate drivers with more faith in the new technology than understanding. Now, back to my question. How much are you willing to relinquish for the privilege of riding your bicycle on the driverless highway of the future? Are you ready for robo-bike? -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS
Average vehicle life is 12 years so 7-9 years from now is electric driverless territory.
Advanced 1 liter car ... There is an assumption in the background that cleanER energy generation is possible The entire scheme is similar to the cat convertor n vinyl/acrylic paint. There are way to many cars n way to few pools n it's gonna get air worse not better |
DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS
On Sun, 8 Oct 2017 20:14:20 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
I came down a street this morning at about 30 mph dodging pot holes the entire distance. Some 5 miles. No auto-car could do that. At this time, that's probably true. However, they're working on the problem. "Driverless Cars Stay In Their Lane - Even If It Means Hitting Potholes" https://www.newsy.com/stories/autonomous-cars-take-pothole-hits-to-keep-other-drivers-safe/ "5 Things That Give Self-Driving Cars Headaches" https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/06/06/automobiles/autonomous-cars-problems.html "But potholes are tough. They lie below the road surface, not above it. A dark patch in the road ahead could be a pothole. Or an oil spot. Or a puddle. Or even a filled-in pothole." -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS
On Sun, 8 Oct 2017 11:59:19 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
robo cycle ? no, again too expensive and again a .50 transponder suits an 11 year olds cycle. the bottom line with cycle are kids n kids costs. Nothing is too expensive for the safety of our children. There will probably be some minimal IFF (Identification Friend or Foe) type transponder built into the kids smartphone to warn approaching driverless cars that the speeding maniac on a bicycle, going the wrong way on the street, across traffic, wearing clothes invisible on LIDAR, is an 11 year old. "The Suit You Will Need to Avoid Surveillance in the Future" https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/10/where-the-lasers-cant-see-you/409303/ -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS
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DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS
On 10/8/2017 10:32 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 08 Oct 2017 18:22:03 -0500, AMuzi wrote: What I meant about optimism was, what makes you think the carnage will slow or stop? Oh that. Well, it can go either way. Initially, it will be a balance between early adopters, who are generally competent and reasonably affluent, and customer tested beta quality software, which is certain to be FOB (full of bugs). These early adopters are generally willing to tolerate a few bugs and fatalities in order to win points among their peers for being a technical pioneer or adventurer. Once these are gone, the next wave of buyers will be less competent and less affluent. At the same time, the lessons learned by the fatal accidents of the early adopters will improve the software to keep the second wave of buyers alive long enough to run the driverless car into a commodity. Of course, government will try to help accelerate progress, but more likely will simply hinder progress with bureaucratic impediments. In other words, I don't have any idea if a driverless car will actually save 30,000 lives per year. It might simply kill the same number of drivers in a different manner. My guess(tm) is that the carnage will initially slow down but later increase as the software becomes old, communications protocols change, and the roads become even more clogged with additional driverless "things". Talk to anyone with an older car that has a dashboard GPS mapping display, who has tried to obtain an up to date map. The key to the puzzle is the word "safety". I've dealt with safety equipment in an industrial environment. Once safety interlocks and shields are introduced, the accident rate usually increases rather than decreases. That's because workers genuinely believe that the safety device will protect them from harm, no matter how stupid they act. So, they do risky things and soon learn that safety devices only protect against a limited number of possible actions. Methinks that much the same will be when driverless cars are introduced while chanting the "safety" mantra. Drivers will believe that the driverless car technology will protect them from harm, and proceed to perform new and original stupid stunts, testing the limits of the new technology. If the programmers have anticipated such stunts, then these drivers might live to tell the story at the next party. If not, the drivers become a statistic. I'm not worried because natural selection should be able to eliminate drivers with more faith in the new technology than understanding. Now, back to my question. How much are you willing to relinquish for the privilege of riding your bicycle on the driverless highway of the future? Are you ready for robo-bike? I'll take my bad attitude and antiauthoritarian streak wherever my bike wants to go, sans tracking device. We're USAians - defiance is among our dearest cultural values. To the phrase, "Everyone ought to...", my reply is a raised middle finger. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS
On Monday, October 9, 2017 at 5:35:39 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/8/2017 10:11 PM, wrote: Not only is it not over but it has hardly begun. If you think for one second that young men are going to turn their cars over to an artificial intelligence you're going to have to think a little harder on that Jeff. Tom, you might spend a little time with teenagers of my grandsons' cohort. They don't think as we did. Their world has always been safe, adventure proscribed, opportunity closed. Cars have little attraction or meaning for most of that generation. I'm uncomfortable with their ethos, but then again it's not my generation. I find it difficult to believe that this is what humans have become. Shaking in their boots that someone in another state used a gun to kill people while ignoring the deaths of thousands of people every year due to vehicular accidents. But perhaps you're correct. Today children are kept inside with very limited access to adventure of any sort. I spent most of my childhood above the age of 6 walking miles and playing in salt marshes collecting snakes and lizards. The other day I was riding up one of the local hills through a canyon and there was a medium sized tarantula walking down the road. I rode around it without a second though and they later reading email from the riding group was fearful complaints that it's the season which tarantulas are out. One time we were riding in a group on the Bay Trail and there was a garter snake slithering across the trail and people started screaming, "Kill it, kill it!". It took them all by surprise that I simply picked it up and put it on the other side of the trail through a fence so none of them could get at it to kill it. Perhaps the horror movies are having this sort of effect on people. I don't go to crap like that and so do not even understand the sort of fears these people have. |
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