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Does anyone make a FWD / rear steer recumbent? Seems to me you'd save a lot
of chain length. Perhaps they'd struggle for grip up hills? |
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Doki wrote:
Does anyone make a FWD / rear steer recumbent? FWD, certainly. Zox and Flevo are the obvious examples, plus the Very Serious Speed machinery used at the likes of Battle Mountain is sometimes FWD (well, it's not like they have to go round hairpin bends...). Rear steer is a different matter. I think it was in C+ that someone asked this and Mike Burrows answered it. IIRC he basically said that what's fine in theory doesn't work quite so well in practice and rear steer bikes tend to be patronised by people called Koko with large red noses... The Flevo is an interesting exception to the usual rules: it doesn't steer at either wheel but has a hinge in the middle of the bike, and can be ridden completely no hands as far as steering goes (though bars are provided to mount brake and gear levers) Seems to me you'd save a lot of chain length. Perhaps they'd struggle for grip up hills? I believe that is an issue with some, though not bad enough to render the concept useless. I think it's combining the steering with the drive that causes more headaches. OTOH, long chains aren't as bad as you might think: less wear when used on derailleurs, for example, as the angles aren't so bad as you move across the cassette. Pete. -- Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/ |
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On 21/6/04 3:56 pm, in article , "Peter Clinch"
wrote: Rear steer is a different matter. I think it was in C+ that someone asked this and Mike Burrows answered it. IIRC he basically said that what's fine in theory doesn't work quite so well in practice and rear steer bikes tend to be patronised by people called Koko with large red noses... I was just thinking about this and considering what pushing a rear steer trolley is like. There is only one word I can think of to desribe the thought of rear wheel steering on a fast downhill and that is SCARY (followed by lots of road rash and a stay in hospital). There is a reason the back wheels follow the front and that is stability. Rear steering involves the back going it's own way. Interesting... ...d |
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David Martin wrote:
I was just thinking about this and considering what pushing a rear steer trolley is like. There is only one word I can think of to desribe the thought of rear wheel steering on a fast downhill and that is SCARY (followed by lots of road rash and a stay in hospital). ISTR that Thrust SSC was rear-steer. -- Guy -- May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting. http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk |
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David Martin wrote: On 21/6/04 3:56 pm, in article , "Peter Clinch" wrote: Rear steer is a different matter. I think it was in C+ that someone asked this and Mike Burrows answered it. IIRC he basically said that what's fine in theory doesn't work quite so well in practice and rear steer bikes tend to be patronised by people called Koko with large red noses... I was just thinking about this and considering what pushing a rear steer trolley is like. Just a case of practice, IME of pushing trolleys with the steering wheels at the back. There is only one word I can think of to desribe the thought of rear wheel steering on a fast downhill and that is SCARY (followed by lots of road rash and a stay in hospital). There is a reason the back wheels follow the front and that is stability. Rear steering involves the back going it's own way. Interesting... It wouldn't be difficult to castor the rear wheels so that they return to straight ahead of their own accord. The opposite occurs in a car when you reverse, so it gives you the impression that rear steer is much more unstable than it has to be. |
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Just zis Guy, you know? typed:
David Martin wrote: I was just thinking about this and considering what pushing a rear steer trolley is like. There is only one word I can think of to desribe the thought of rear wheel steering on a fast downhill and that is SCARY (followed by lots of road rash and a stay in hospital). ISTR that Thrust SSC was rear-steer. But Thrust doesn't have 'steering' as such, it's really just an aid to staying in a straight line at st00pid speeds ... ;) -- Paul ... (8(|) ... Homer Rocks |
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"Doki" wrote in message
... David Martin wrote: On 21/6/04 3:56 pm, in article , "Peter Clinch" wrote: Rear steer is a different matter. I think it was in C+ that someone asked this and Mike Burrows answered it. IIRC he basically said that what's fine in theory doesn't work quite so well in practice and rear steer bikes tend to be patronised by people called Koko with large red noses... I was just thinking about this and considering what pushing a rear steer trolley is like. Just a case of practice, IME of pushing trolleys with the steering wheels at the back. Do you actually know of any documented case of someone being able to ride a rear-steered bicycle? All the experiments I have read of have concluded that it's pretty much impossible. It could easily be built into tricycles if you wanted to though. There is only one word I can think of to desribe the thought of rear wheel steering on a fast downhill and that is SCARY (followed by lots of road rash and a stay in hospital). There is a reason the back wheels follow the front and that is stability. Rear steering involves the back going it's own way. Interesting... The problem is that to turn away from an obstacle you have to steer towards it. This means that situations can arise where it is not possible to avoid the obstacle with rear steering but it could have been avoided with front steering. It wouldn't be difficult to castor the rear wheels so that they return to straight ahead of their own accord. The opposite occurs in a car when you reverse, so it gives you the impression that rear steer is much more unstable than it has to be. Very few HPVs have reverse gears[1], so the necessary corrections possible with a car are not available. [1] Yes, I know there are a few. -- Mark South: World Citizen, Net Denizen |
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Mark South wrote: "Doki" wrote in message ... David Martin wrote: On 21/6/04 3:56 pm, in article , "Peter Clinch" wrote: Rear steer is a different matter. I think it was in C+ that someone asked this and Mike Burrows answered it. IIRC he basically said that what's fine in theory doesn't work quite so well in practice and rear steer bikes tend to be patronised by people called Koko with large red noses... I was just thinking about this and considering what pushing a rear steer trolley is like. Just a case of practice, IME of pushing trolleys with the steering wheels at the back. Do you actually know of any documented case of someone being able to ride a rear-steered bicycle? All the experiments I have read of have concluded that it's pretty much impossible. It could easily be built into tricycles if you wanted to though. I was thinking of a pair of rear wheels TBH. I've not tried it, or read up on. I wouldn't even want to try riding a rear steer bicycle, too much weight over the wheel that's lurching across the road quite rapidly... There is only one word I can think of to desribe the thought of rear wheel steering on a fast downhill and that is SCARY (followed by lots of road rash and a stay in hospital). There is a reason the back wheels follow the front and that is stability. Rear steering involves the back going it's own way. Interesting... The problem is that to turn away from an obstacle you have to steer towards it. This means that situations can arise where it is not possible to avoid the obstacle with rear steering but it could have been avoided with front steering. I'm afraid I don't really *get* countersteering. I must do it, but I've never noticed myself do it. Probably all bunged away in the brain stem and never consciously thought about. It wouldn't be difficult to castor the rear wheels so that they return to straight ahead of their own accord. The opposite occurs in a car when you reverse, so it gives you the impression that rear steer is much more unstable than it has to be. Very few HPVs have reverse gears[1], so the necessary corrections possible with a car are not available. [1] Yes, I know there are a few. I wasn't thinking of having a reverse gear on the bike, just that if you ever try reversing at speed in a car, the slightest steering input results in the car winding a lot of lock on by itself. The same effect gives the steering self centring when you're going forwards. |
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Mark South wrote:
Do you actually know of any documented case of someone being able to ride a rear-steered bicycle? All the experiments I have read of have concluded that it's pretty much impossible. I've ridden rear steer bikes. Once you get the hang of it it's pretty easy, though I haven't ridden them at any great speed. Actually, come to think of it, the bikes I'm thinking of have 2 wheel steering. So it's not the same thing at all: URL:http://www.unicycle.uk.com/shop/shopdisplayproduct.asp?catalogid=263 -- Danny Colyer (the UK company has been laughed out of my reply address) URL:http://www.speedy5.freeserve.co.uk/danny/ "He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine |
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On Mon, 21 Jun, Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
David Martin wrote: I was just thinking about this and considering what pushing a rear steer trolley is like. There is only one word I can think of to desribe the thought of rear wheel steering on a fast downhill and that is SCARY (followed by lots of road rash and a stay in hospital). ISTR that Thrust SSC was rear-steer. It was, and when teh engineers proposed it as teh solution to various problems it was mightily poo-pooed. It'll never work, inherently unstable, blaah blaah. In fact, read on in the thread for the sort of comments heaped on teh rear-steer proposal. They built a steering prototype by taking a mini, locking teh front wheels straight, detaching teh back axle and substituting a long pylon with steering wheels on teh back, such that the geometry was a scaled-down version of the Thrust proposal. Apparently it steered beautifully, no problem at all, as long all teh linkages were fully 100% ok and there was no slop in anything. regards, Ian SMith -- |\ /| no .sig |o o| |/ \| |
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On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 15:44:19 +0100, Doki wrote:
Does anyone make a FWD / rear steer recumbent? Seems to me you'd save a lot of chain length. Perhaps they'd struggle for grip up hills? There are FWD,FWS tadpole trikes - russian titanium ones turn up occasionally. There's also one that is FWD via a differential, and steered by braking teh front wheels individually, like a tank. The back wheel is just a castor. I quite like that as a scheme, but I don't think I'd dice with rush-hour traffic on downhills with it - seems to me it has teh potential to pirouette and dump you on teh road if you forget yourself and tug on a brake inappropriately. regards, Ian SMith -- |\ /| no .sig |o o| |/ \| |
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in message , Peter Clinch
') wrote: Doki wrote: Does anyone make a FWD / rear steer recumbent? FWD, certainly. Zox and Flevo are the obvious examples, plus the Very Serious Speed machinery used at the likes of Battle Mountain is sometimes FWD (well, it's not like they have to go round hairpin bends...). Rear steer is a different matter. I think it was in C+ that someone asked this and Mike Burrows answered it. IIRC he basically said that what's fine in theory doesn't work quite so well in practice and rear steer bikes tend to be patronised by people called Koko with large red noses... The Flevo is an interesting exception to the usual rules: it doesn't steer at either wheel but has a hinge in the middle of the bike, and can be ridden completely no hands as far as steering goes (though bars are provided to mount brake and gear levers) Can you post a URL: All I find on the Flevobike site URL:http://www.flevobike.nl/indexmodellen.html is a very nicely finished and interesting looking velomobile (come to think of it, it's reviewed in the latest VeloVision). I can't find any reference to your hinged in the middle bicycle (but being unable to read Dutch is a drawback here). -- (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/ ;; I'd rather live in sybar-space |
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in message , Doki
') wrote: Mark South wrote: The problem is that to turn away from an obstacle you have to steer towards it. This means that situations can arise where it is not possible to avoid the obstacle with rear steering but it could have been avoided with front steering. I'm afraid I don't really *get* countersteering. I must do it, but I've never noticed myself do it. Probably all bunged away in the brain stem and never consciously thought about. Countersteering is one of those things about cycling which people have religious beliefs about. In practice you can steer a bike by starting the turn by turning the handlebars the opposite way, in order to get the wheels out from under the CoG, but it isn't necessary or even common. If you had a radio controlled bike with a rigidly mounted crash test dummy this would be the only way to steer it. But 90% of bike steering at any normal speed is balance and body weight, and countersteering is very rare in practice (I very rarely do it and watching other people I very rarely see it. Mind you, cycling theorists will tell you this is impossible. And that wheels stand on spokes and that steering is a matter of gyroscopic precession, and all sorts of other things which are indeed partly true or true under some circumstances, but which True Believers recite as mantras of universal truth. -- (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/ ...but have you *seen* the size of the world wide spider? |
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Ian Smith wrote: On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 15:44:19 +0100, Doki wrote: Does anyone make a FWD / rear steer recumbent? Seems to me you'd save a lot of chain length. Perhaps they'd struggle for grip up hills? There are FWD,FWS tadpole trikes - russian titanium ones turn up occasionally. There's also one that is FWD via a differential, and steered by braking teh front wheels individually, like a tank. The back wheel is just a castor. I quite like that as a scheme, but I don't think I'd dice with rush-hour traffic on downhills with it - seems to me it has teh potential to pirouette and dump you on teh road if you forget yourself and tug on a brake inappropriately. Get a little lug you flip over to lock both brakes together like you do in a tractor then ;). Or two sets of brakes on each wheel - one for steering and one for braking. |
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In ,
Simon Brooke typed: in message , Peter Clinch ') wrote: Doki wrote: Does anyone make a FWD / rear steer recumbent? FWD, certainly. Zox and Flevo are the obvious examples, plus the Very Serious Speed machinery used at the likes of Battle Mountain is sometimes FWD (well, it's not like they have to go round hairpin bends...). The Flevo is an interesting exception to the usual rules: it doesn't steer at either wheel but has a hinge in the middle of the bike, and can be ridden completely no hands as far as steering goes (though bars are provided to mount brake and gear levers) Can you post a URL: All I find on the Flevobike site URL:http://www.flevobike.nl/indexmodellen.html is a very nicely finished and interesting looking velomobile (come to think of it, it's reviewed in the latest VeloVision). http://home.hccnet.nl/Mark.Maier/rec...evoracer99.jpg There's one, it's a Flevoracer. A |
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Simon Brooke wrote:
Countersteering is one of those things about cycling which people have religious beliefs about. In practice you can steer a bike by starting the turn by turning the handlebars the opposite way, in order to get the wheels out from under the CoG, but it isn't necessary or even common. If you had a radio controlled bike with a rigidly mounted crash test dummy this would be the only way to steer it. I've got one of them [1], and that is indeed how it steers. But 90% of bike steering at any normal speed is balance and body weight, and countersteering is very rare in practice (I very rarely do it and watching other people I very rarely see it. I never used to notice it, but now I often notice myself starting a turn by countersteering. For some reason it's much more noticeable on the Street Machine that it used to be on my ATB. Perhaps it's more necessary on a bent than on a wedgie. [1] It was my 30th birthday present from my Dad. I downloaded a 2.84MB movie of it in action from URL:http://www.taiyoedge.com/, but it appears to no longer be there. Instead, it should be temporarily possible to get it from he URL:http://www.speedy5.freeserve.co.uk/z-freestyle.mpg -- Danny Colyer (the UK company has been laughed out of my reply address) URL:http://www.speedy5.freeserve.co.uk/danny/ "He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine |
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"Simon Brooke" wrote in message
... in message , Doki ') wrote: Mark South wrote: The problem is that to turn away from an obstacle you have to steer towards it. This means that situations can arise where it is not possible to avoid the obstacle with rear steering but it could have been avoided with front steering. I'm afraid I don't really *get* countersteering. I must do it, but I've never noticed myself do it. Probably all bunged away in the brain stem and never consciously thought about. It's not countersteering, with a rear-steer vehicle that is *steering*. Countersteering is one of those things about cycling which people have religious beliefs about. But on a rear-steered vehicle you have to swing the rear towards the object you are trying to avoid. Fact, not religion. In practice you can steer a bike by starting the turn by turning the handlebars the opposite way, in order to get the wheels out from under the CoG, but it isn't necessary or even common. If you had a radio controlled bike with a rigidly mounted crash test dummy this would be the only way to steer it. But 90% of bike steering at any normal speed is balance and body weight, and countersteering is very rare in practice (I very rarely do it and watching other people I very rarely see it. Which probably tells you that humans are not well adapted to it as a balance control mode. Mind you, cycling theorists will tell you this is impossible. And that wheels stand on spokes and that steering is a matter of gyroscopic precession, and all sorts of other things which are indeed partly true or true under some circumstances, but which True Believers recite as mantras of universal truth. This is all a bit uncalled-for. There is no myth about what I said relating to rear-steering recumbents. Nor have I claimed that any of the false statements above are true. -- "You need to declare a jihad on your own ignorant ass." - Ed Dolan in alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent |
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in message , Ambrose Nankivell
') wrote: In , Simon Brooke typed: in message , Peter Clinch ') wrote: Doki wrote: Does anyone make a FWD / rear steer recumbent? FWD, certainly. Zox and Flevo are the obvious examples, plus the Very Serious Speed machinery used at the likes of Battle Mountain is sometimes FWD (well, it's not like they have to go round hairpin bends...). The Flevo is an interesting exception to the usual rules: it doesn't steer at either wheel but has a hinge in the middle of the bike, and can be ridden completely no hands as far as steering goes (though bars are provided to mount brake and gear levers) Can you post a URL: All I find on the Flevobike site URL:http://www.flevobike.nl/indexmodellen.html is a very nicely finished and interesting looking velomobile (come to think of it, it's reviewed in the latest VeloVision). http://home.hccnet.nl/Mark.Maier/rec...evoracer99.jpg There's one, it's a Flevoracer. Ahh! Interesting. Questions: Are the handlebars attached to the forward chassis, or to the rear chassis? Are the handlebars rigidly attached, or is there a linkage? What is the mechanism of the link - does it have bearings like conventional headset bearings, or something more robust - and are there mechanical problems at the link in practice? Has anyone here ridden such a thing and if so how did it ride? Front wheel drive without twisting the chain line has a lot to be said for it. -- (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/ Tony Blair's epitaph, #1: Here lies Tony Blair. Tony Blair's epitaph, #2: Trust me. |
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On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 23:15:13 +0200, Mark South wrote:
"You need to declare a jihad on your own ignorant ass." - Ed Dolan in alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent Has The Troll of arbr discovered a sense of humour? Maybe I should rescue him from the killfile.... Mike |
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In ,
Simon Brooke typed: in message , Ambrose Nankivell ') wrote: http://home.hccnet.nl/Mark.Maier/rec...evoracer99.jpg There's one, it's a Flevoracer. Ahh! Interesting. Questions: IANAExpert, just someone interested. I could well be wrong. Are the handlebars attached to the forward chassis, or to the rear chassis? Are the handlebars rigidly attached, or is there a linkage? Attached to the rear, rigidly. It's steered by the pedals. Not considered to be that easy to ride or manouverable, but aparrently people do commute on them. I'm sure Dave Larrington can fill you in on it, anyway. A |
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Simon Brooke wrote:
Can you post a URL: There's a fairly good description of the Racer version at http://home.hccnet.nl/Mark.Maier/recumbents.html The basic "Bike" model has 20" back and front, the racer has bigger wheels and there's also a trike version. Pete. -- Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/ |
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Peter Clinch writes:
Simon Brooke wrote: Can you post a URL: There's a fairly good description of the Racer version at http://home.hccnet.nl/Mark.Maier/recumbents.html The basic "Bike" model has 20" back and front, the racer has bigger wheels and there's also a trike version. And they're now manufactured by Tempelman: http://www.ligfietsshop.nl/ Follow the links to 'Assortiment', 'Tempelman' and then you'll find 4 models Flevo-Bike, Flevo-Bike air, Flevo-Racer, Flevo-Trike All in Dutch though.... Roos |
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Ian Smith wrote in
: There's also one that is FWD via a differential, and steered by braking teh front wheels individually, like a tank. The back wheel is just a castor. That'll be this one - http://www.sidewindercycle.com/ It looks good fun - http://www.sidewindercycle.com/movies/solo% 20spinning.MPG however I wouldn't want to have to stop in an emergency at high speed. Also, would turning by braking one wheel not burn off some important energy? Graeme |
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"Mike Causer" wrote in message
news:B1KBc.385$cT4.162@newsfe1-win... On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 23:15:13 +0200, Mark South wrote: "You need to declare a jihad on your own ignorant ass." - Ed Dolan in alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent Has The Troll of arbr discovered a sense of humour? Maybe I should rescue him from the killfile.... Oh, no, he's perfectly the same, but recently he's been coming up with some quotable stuff in the same humorous/colourful vein. -- "You are the most stupid asshole I have yet encountered on this newsgroup. Congratulations. That is no small achievement as there are many other stupid assholes on this newsgroup. But they can't hold a candle to you." - Ed Dolan in alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent |
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Mark South wrote:
Has The Troll of arbr discovered a sense of humour? Maybe I should rescue him from the killfile.... Oh, no, he's perfectly the same, but recently he's been coming up with some quotable stuff in the same humorous/colourful vein. Mr Ed is not worth reading any more. If it's true he has Alzheimer's then it's reached the obnoxious senseless stage. If he doesn't even have that excuse then he is just an arsehole. His "get the retaliation in first" style is annoying, his "I am right and f**k the evidence" attitude is wearing and his advice against the cycling techniques we know and love is downright dangerous. -- Guy -- May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting. http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk |
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"Just zis Guy, you know?" wrote in message
... Mark South wrote: Has The Troll of arbr discovered a sense of humour? Maybe I should rescue him from the killfile.... Oh, no, he's perfectly the same, but recently he's been coming up with some quotable stuff in the same humorous/colourful vein. Mr Ed is not worth reading any more. If it's true he has Alzheimer's then it's reached the obnoxious senseless stage. If he doesn't even have that excuse then he is just an arsehole. All of the above. His "get the retaliation in first" style is annoying, his "I am right and f**k the evidence" attitude is wearing and his advice against the cycling techniques we know and love is downright dangerous. Thank god there's no one like that posting in uk.rec.cycling then. -- "I would recommend Iowa or North Dakota for your dip into reality." - Ed Dolan in alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent |
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Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
ISTR that Thrust SSC was rear-steer. It was, and afterwards S/L Green is on record as saying that such steering should in future be confined to forklifts. There /have/ been some more or less successful FWD/RWS recumbent trikes, though. The Sturmey-Archer Flying Five and Simon Sanderson's exquisitely mis-named Panzer were both successful racers in the early 80's, and there have been production machines from the Jouta brothers in The Netherlands. However, get it wrong and it will bite - I have the scars to prove it. -- Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/ ================================================== ========= Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter http://www.bhpc.org.uk/ ================================================== ========= |
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On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 22:04:55 +0100, Danny Colyer wrote:
I never used to notice it, but now I often notice myself starting a turn by countersteering. For some reason it's much more noticeable on the Street Machine that it used to be on my ATB. Perhaps it's more necessary on a bent than on a wedgie. Perhaps it's more noticable because of the lack of weight on the hands & arms? Last week, after reading the explanation of bicycle steering in the 3rd edition of "Bicycling Science" I did some experimenting. First on the Speed Ross swb recumbent. I took it to a local industrial estate with a reasonable area of concrete to play on. The bike would turn _either_ with a very gentle movement of the bars _into_ the turn or with a positive push _out of_ the turn. A sharp push out of turn generated a real feeling of instability as it first went in the direction of the bars then reversed -- with the rear tyre protesting. I didn't go too far with this, falling off onto dirty concrete is not fun. Once in the turn the bars were turned very noticably into the turn, but had to held with a force out of turn. Letting go of the bars instantly dropped it into turn, and to straighten up the bars had to be pushed out of turn. At higher speed corners on the road, I believe that the out of turn force needed for constant cornering reduces, but haven't found a suitable place the test. Now on the wedgie (a Moulton AM). I really could not detect what movements or forces were involved in getting it to turn. Possibly because I was doing through weight shift, but I think it was because the forces are so light and considerably less than the loads due to body weight. However, to keep a turn going it needs into turn bar position. Lastly a couple of motorbike experiments from some time ago. To start the turn takes a definite push _out_ of turn -- the classic countersteer. Push harder and the 'bike drops into the turn faster. To straighten up push _into_ turn. However the two 'bikes behaved differently mid-turn, one needed slight into turn bar position and the other needed slight out of turn. Initiating a turn by weight-shifting works, but slowly. I am far from convinced that anyone (D G Wilson included) has yet fully worked out all the factors involved in bicycle steering... Mike |
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On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 13:11:52 +0100, Dave Larrington wrote:
There /have/ been some more or less successful FWD/RWS recumbent trikes, though. I would love to try one. The Sturmey-Archer Flying Five and Simon Sanderson's exquisitely mis-named Panzer were both successful racers in the early 80's, and there have been production machines from the Jouta brothers in The Netherlands. However, get it wrong and it will bite - I have the scars to prove it. If rear-steering can work, would I be able to ride a bike backwards downhill? I've been trying (why not?!) and I might practice harder if I knew that it was possible. AC |
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