Carbon Fiber Seat Stays = Better Ride?
 

Steve Sr. wrote:
I have seen carbon fiber seat stays being advertized as improving the
"comfort" and the ride "quality" of a bike. Serotta even goes so far
as putting a bearing at the dropout end on their high end bikes to
allow the seat stays to flex and act as springs to soften the ride. Or
at least this is what is claimed. Other manufacturers make similar
claims.

So given a regular full titanium frame like a Litespeed Tuscany how
much if any difference would be made by having the seat stays made of
carbon fiber? Would the difference be noticeable or not? Has anybody
done any _quantatative_ measurements or studies on this or is it all
subjective?

Thanks for your thoughts.

Steve

It is a mystery to me how any frame maker can say a titanim frame,that
lasts forever and having a wonderful ride, can be improved with carbon
plugs or a supported at both ends, carbon rear end glued in. Stays don't
flex up and down an amount that would make any difference. On an
aluminum frame, the chainstays don't flex at all, and a non compressable
stay is the stuff of marketing.

It is an unneceassary addition that makes things more expensive, less
reliable.

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
Steve Sr. wrote:

I have seen carbon fiber seat stays being advertized as improving the
"comfort" and the ride "quality" of a bike. Serotta even goes so far
as putting a bearing at the dropout end on their high end bikes to
allow the seat stays to flex and act as springs to soften the ride. Or
at least this is what is claimed. Other manufacturers make similar
claims.

So given a regular full titanium frame like a Litespeed Tuscany how
much if any difference would be made by having the seat stays made of
carbon fiber? Would the difference be noticeable or not? Has anybody
done any _quantatative_ measurements or studies on this or is it all
subjective?

Thanks for your thoughts.

Steve


It is a mystery to me how any frame maker can say a titanim frame,that
lasts forever and having a wonderful ride, can be improved with carbon
plugs or a supported at both ends, carbon rear end glued in. Stays don't
flex up and down an amount that would make any difference. On an
aluminum frame, the chainstays don't flex at all, and a non compressable
stay is the stuff of marketing.

It is an unneceassary addition that makes things more expensive, less
reliable.

Not surprised at what Serotta says tho. Ben seems to climb on every
gadget bandwagon that comes along...

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" wrote in message
news:1113396856.a7e9df991cd0dd1101ec6ac0d853c57b@t eranews...
Steve Sr. wrote:
I have seen carbon fiber seat stays being advertized as improving the
"comfort" and the ride "quality" of a bike. Serotta even goes so far
as putting a bearing at the dropout end on their high end bikes to
allow the seat stays to flex and act as springs to soften the ride. Or
at least this is what is claimed. Other manufacturers make similar
claims.

So given a regular full titanium frame like a Litespeed Tuscany how
much if any difference would be made by having the seat stays made of
carbon fiber? Would the difference be noticeable or not? Has anybody
done any _quantatative_ measurements or studies on this or is it all
subjective?

Thanks for your thoughts.

Steve

It is a mystery to me how any frame maker can say a titanim frame,that
lasts forever and having a wonderful ride, can be improved with carbon
plugs or a supported at both ends, carbon rear end glued in. Stays don't
flex up and down an amount that would make any difference. On an
aluminum frame, the chainstays don't flex at all, and a non compressable
stay is the stuff of marketing.

It is an unneceassary addition that makes things more expensive, less
reliable.

Peter, do you say/think that there is a noticeable difference in vertical
flex between a aluminium and titanium rear triangle?

Lou

Lou Holtman wrote:
"Qui si parla Campagnolo" wrote in message
news:1113396856.a7e9df991cd0dd1101ec6ac0d853c57b@t eranews...

Steve Sr. wrote:

I have seen carbon fiber seat stays being advertized as improving the
"comfort" and the ride "quality" of a bike. Serotta even goes so far
as putting a bearing at the dropout end on their high end bikes to
allow the seat stays to flex and act as springs to soften the ride. Or
at least this is what is claimed. Other manufacturers make similar
claims.

So given a regular full titanium frame like a Litespeed Tuscany how
much if any difference would be made by having the seat stays made of
carbon fiber? Would the difference be noticeable or not? Has anybody
done any _quantatative_ measurements or studies on this or is it all
subjective?

Thanks for your thoughts.

Steve

It is a mystery to me how any frame maker can say a titanim frame,that
lasts forever and having a wonderful ride, can be improved with carbon
plugs or a supported at both ends, carbon rear end glued in. Stays don't
flex up and down an amount that would make any difference. On an
aluminum frame, the chainstays don't flex at all, and a non compressable
stay is the stuff of marketing.

It is an unneceassary addition that makes things more expensive, less
reliable.


Peter, do you say/think that there is a noticeable difference in vertical
flex between a aluminium and titanium rear triangle?

Lou


Can't say because I am riding the bicycle and not really testing the
small part of frameset. I can say that after riding lots of carbon butt
ended frames and non-I can't tell any difference.

Steve Sr. wrote:

I have seen carbon fiber seat stays being advertized as improving
the
"comfort" and the ride "quality" of a bike.

Serrota is behind the times, they're building the bike backwards....
check this out quote..

"Isaac Force
Perhaps the only significant frame innovation of the Twenty-First
Century, the Isaac Force heralds a unique and truly revolutionary
featu Force Transfer Aluminium seat stays. The aluminium stays give
improved lateral and torsional stiffness, and improved robustness -
all whilst maintaining a very low weight. The Isaac Force combines all
the advantages of a highly advanced carbon-composite monocoque frame
with the outstanding mechanical properties of 7000 series alloy tube
- only where it is needed"

end quote
http://www.isaac-carbon.com/index3.htm, scroll around a bit.
Pinarello SuperEgo, carbon lugs, magnesium main tubes, AL stays,
Reynolds 531 fork, a bike to make everyone happy.
Scott G.

Qui si parla Campagnolo writes:

It is a mystery to me how any frame maker can say a titanim frame,that
lasts forever and having a wonderful ride, can be improved with carbon
plugs or a supported at both ends, carbon rear end glued in. Stays don't
flex up and down an amount that would make any difference. On an
aluminum frame, the chainstays don't flex at all, and a non compressable
stay is the stuff of marketing.

Not a mystery to me! The pure titanium frame, which lasts forever,
results in zero resales to the same customer. The frameset with
carbon plugs and rear end glued in will fail, resulting in future
sales from said deadbeat customer.

darned if those carbon stays don't feel better than that pure
unrustable titanium which feels horrible !!!

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

wrote:
Steve Sr. wrote:

I have seen carbon fiber seat stays being advertized as
improving
the
"comfort" and the ride "quality" of a bike.

Serrota is behind the times, they're building the bike backwards....
check this out quote..

"Isaac Force
Perhaps the only significant frame innovation of the Twenty-First
Century, the Isaac Force heralds a unique and truly revolutionary
featu Force Transfer Aluminium seat stays. The aluminium stays
give
improved lateral and torsional stiffness, and improved robustness -
all whilst maintaining a very low weight. The Isaac Force combines
all
the advantages of a highly advanced carbon-composite monocoque frame
with the outstanding mechanical properties of 7000 series alloy tube
- only where it is needed"

end quote
http://www.isaac-carbon.com/index3.htm, scroll around a bit.
Pinarello SuperEgo, carbon lugs, magnesium main tubes, AL stays,
Reynolds 531 fork, a bike to make everyone happy.
Scott G.

But didn't the Isaac Force get its original idea from the Cannondale
613? Or whatever Cannondale calls its carbon main tube, aluminum lug,
all aluminum rear triangle. And didn't Cannondale get its idea from
the old Trek 2300 carbon main tube, aluminum rear triangle frame? And
I imagine the Trek 2300 was just a copy of 1980s Vitus or Alan carbon
main tube aluminum rear triangle frames. Gosh, it seems everything old
is new again. I wonder if they will come out with the double diamond
lugged steel frame as "the only significant frame innovation of the
Twenty-SECOND Century".

Announcing !!! The HybridTube bicycle !!!

Aluminum oversized downtube. Strong where you need it most. For
extra stiffness we use a 2" downtube. Strength is enhanced by our
special need-specific tube shaping (NSTS) which shapes the downtube in
the shape of a "$" (dollar bill.)

Titanium top tube. When you've got something to compress, nothing
compresses like titanium.

Carbon rear stay. We make the rear stays carbon because the front
fork is probably carbon and it just doesn't make sense to be coming
with carbon without going with carbon as well.

Bottom bracket. This is steel in order to inhibit flexion in this
critical area.

Seat Tube. The seat tube is probably the greatest afterthought in
bicycle design today. Therefore, we use one of the most unconsidered
materials of all time in the seat tube, pure, flame-enhancing
magnesium. Because of it's protected location in the middle of the
bike, we feel the risk of flash fires due to sparks during a crash has
been held to an absolute minimum.

Head tube. In order to bring this frame to you at an attractive
price, we use an investment-cast head tube with integral lugs. This
head tube is cast from space-age resin mixed with a proven material
straight from the "old school" of bicycle design : bamboo.

There you have it. The most significant bicycle frameset development
of 2005 (**).


- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA


(**) (April 13, 3:20-3:23 time period.)

In article , Steve Sr.
wrote:

I have seen carbon fiber seat stays being advertized as improving the
"comfort" and the ride "quality" of a bike. Serotta even goes so far
as putting a bearing at the dropout end on their high end bikes to
allow the seat stays to flex and act as springs to soften the ride. Or
at least this is what is claimed. Other manufacturers make similar
claims.

So given a regular full titanium frame like a Litespeed Tuscany how
much if any difference would be made by having the seat stays made of
carbon fiber? Would the difference be noticeable or not? Has anybody
done any _quantatative_ measurements or studies on this or is it all
subjective?

Thanks for your thoughts.

Steve

Steve,

I had the opportunity to test rode two bikes of the same model but a
different year. The Devinci Silverstone 105 (2004) is all full Optimum
61 aluminium frame, whereas the 2005 model is the hybrid Optimum 61 AL
frame with carbon stays. The verdict? They both ride the same.

I also tested a Trek 2300 with carbon stays and that didn't improve
vibration damping at all, or what the hype led me to believe.
Certainly, not worth the extra cash that Trek wants. In fact, I was
totally surprised at how smooth and dampened the ride quality of the
CAAD 7 Optimo frame that's on the Cannondale R700. A tad bit harsher
than my carbon bike, but for 1/4 the price, it's a steal and it's an
all full aluminium frame! Just unbelievable.

Lots of makers are putting out these bonded frames as a way to get
people to buy new bikes and I think it's working. I see a lot of
people riding with these bonded bikes all around, thinking that they
have a soft tail road bike. That is just incredible.

David.