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-   -   The _Observer_ on "deadly" bike lanes (http://www.cyclebanter.com/showthread.php?t=57910)

Helen Deborah Vecht May 27th 04 11:41 AM

The _Observer_ on "deadly" bike lanes
 
"Jeremy Parker" typed




In other places,
some Italian towns and cities particularly, in recent years a high

level of
usage has been built up through appropriate planning measures where

there
was not a high level of cycling before.


Turning "appropriate planning measures" back from newspeak into plain
English. I think David is saying that they made use of competing
modes difficult to impossible.


I don't think so.
David and I were in Northern Italy a few weeks ago and were struck by
the number of cyclists, (both leisure and utility) on the roads. The
terrain was certainly not flat outside Meran(o) but the planners had
made the environment *much* less hostile than we find locally.
There were some dedicated cycle tracks. Cyclists were mostly on the road
and the motorists were patient and tolerant. Our hosts' 6-year-old
daughter was allowed to cycle to the playground (about 3/4 mile) by
herself on the road.
Her road skill weren't too clever.

By contrast, David had real harrassment cycling legally (and skillfully)
to Woolworth's yesterday.


I continually go to meetings of cycling officers where the principle
subject is to bemoan the inability of the bureaucracy to spend the
money they have, although, to their great pride and astonishment,
they did manage it this year. As for engineering, and expertise, I
imagine London gets the pick of what is available (although they
don't employ me, thank goodness) Aren't the results wonderful.


The knowledge exists, and we should be using it.


To do that requires project managers who can distinguish knowledge
from nonsense.


Too true!


But also, I don't accept the
equation between cycle tracks or paths and "leisure use", or indeed
"beginning commuters". If they are well enough done they are

"universal
use", for leisure and commuting, and suitable for all cyclists of

almost all
levels of experience and fitness.


That's probably a definition of "well done", and a fairly good one
too. If a substantial group - any substantial group - of cyclists
complain about a cycle facility then it is not well done. Some cycle
facilities mange to harm even those cyclists who don't use them.
That perhaps is the ultimate in badness.


Yup!

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

David Hansen May 27th 04 12:58 PM

The _Observer_ on "deadly" bike lanes
 
On Thu, 27 May 2004 11:20:28 +0100 someone who may be Peter Clinch
wrote this:-

Read again. Jeremy said places /in/ Wales and Scotland.


There are places in England where cycling is less than places in
Wales and Scotland. Jeremy's comparison is bogus.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.

Simon Brooke May 27th 04 01:35 PM

The _Observer_ on "deadly" bike lanes
 
in message , Jeremy Parker
') wrote:

"David Arditti" wrote

[snip]

So the British just happen to be the laziest nation in Europe,

hence low
cycling levels? I doubt it. I would have thought it was pretty

generally
accepted that the reason more people do not cycle is the

environment.

The interesting thing about Britain is how variable the amount of
cycling is. It ranges from Cambridge, with a higher proportion of
cyclists than Amsterdam [ref EU "Cycling: the way ahead for towns and
cities" 1999] down to places in Wales and Scotland where its pretty
neglegible.


Strange places on the corners of maps where you can write 'here be
monsters' and no-one will have been there to contradict you, you mean?
I can't comment about Wales (although we seem to have plenty of Welsh
posters here) but Scotland is a big place and the amount of cycling
varies from place to place. Even here in Galloway it varies. In
Kirkcudbright, there is a lot of casual utility cycling. In Castle
Douglas, a town of very similar size, very little. But it really isn't
an accident that Edinburgh has the UK's best known and most discussed
LBS - there's a lot of cycling happens in Edinburgh.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; may contain traces of nuts, bolts or washers.

Andy Leighton May 27th 04 03:09 PM

The _Observer_ on "deadly" bike lanes
 
On Wed, 26 May 2004 19:42:47 +0100,
Jeremy Parker wrote:
I suppose it depends on how you measure "effective" - you wouldn't
want a circular definition. I would rate the top few effective bike
networks as

1. Stevenage
2. Harlow
3. Milton Keynes
4. Peterborough


It is interesting to see you put Peterborough in that list. When
I was cycling to work I never used the cycle paths.

Not that they are all bad - some are pretty good, but the good ones
went bugger all near where I wanted to go.

Peterborough has put a lot of work into leisure cycling - The Green
Wheel has some very pleasant bits, but really needs to look at most of
the on-road cycle lanes and shared use cycle paths.

--
Andy Leighton =
"The Lord is my shepherd, but we still lost the sheep dog trials"
- Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_

David Hansen May 27th 04 03:33 PM

The _Observer_ on "deadly" bike lanes
 
On Thu, 27 May 2004 12:35:09 GMT someone who may be Simon Brooke
wrote this:-

But it really isn't
an accident that Edinburgh has the UK's best known and most discussed
LBS - there's a lot of cycling happens in Edinburgh.


It is also no accident that Edinburgh has a local cycling pressure
group that is second to none. I congratulate all those who give up
their time to get all the work done. The work included the first
physical work on what is now the North Edinburgh path network, work
which was eventually taken over by the Council.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.

AndyMorris May 28th 04 01:03 AM

The _Observer_ on "deadly" bike lanes
 
Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:

I don't think so.
David and I were in Northern Italy a few weeks ago and were struck by
the number of cyclists, (both leisure and utility) on the roads. The
terrain was certainly not flat outside Meran(o) but the planners had
made the environment *much* less hostile than we find locally.
There were some dedicated cycle tracks. Cyclists were mostly on the
road and the motorists were patient and tolerant. Our hosts'
6-year-old daughter was allowed to cycle to the playground (about 3/4
mile) by herself on the road.
Her road skill weren't too clever.


Do you think the kudos associated with cycle sports in Italy rubs off on
leisure and utility cycling.

Does an italian middle age fat bloke popping down the shops on his bianchi
have a little bit of a Fausto Coppi fantasy, the way a british bloke going
to B&Q in his mondaeo might have a Colin Macrae moment?



--
Andy Morris

AndyAtJinkasDotFreeserve.Co.UK


Love this:
Put an end to Outlook Express's messy quotes
http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/



Mark South May 28th 04 09:10 AM

The _Observer_ on "deadly" bike lanes
 
"Chris Malcolm" wrote in message
...
"AndyMorris" writes:

Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:


David and I were in Northern Italy a few weeks ago and were struck by
the number of cyclists, (both leisure and utility) on the roads. The
terrain was certainly not flat outside Meran(o) but the planners had
made the environment *much* less hostile than we find locally.
There were some dedicated cycle tracks. Cyclists were mostly on the
road and the motorists were patient and tolerant. Our hosts'
6-year-old daughter was allowed to cycle to the playground (about 3/4
mile) by herself on the road.
Her road skill weren't too clever.


Do you think the kudos associated with cycle sports in Italy rubs off on
leisure and utility cycling.


Does an italian middle age fat bloke popping down the shops on his bianchi
have a little bit of a Fausto Coppi fantasy, the way a british bloke going
to B&Q in his mondaeo might have a Colin Macrae moment?


Is that similar to the old "Stirling Moss" moment, as when the police
pulled you up and asked "Who you do you think you are then, Stirling
Moss?"


Stirling _who_?



Tumbleweed May 28th 04 10:16 AM

The _Observer_ on "deadly" bike lanes
 

"Chris Malcolm" wrote in message
...
"AndyMorris" writes:

Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:


David and I were in Northern Italy a few weeks ago and were struck by
the number of cyclists, (both leisure and utility) on the roads. The
terrain was certainly not flat outside Meran(o) but the planners had
made the environment *much* less hostile than we find locally.
There were some dedicated cycle tracks. Cyclists were mostly on the
road and the motorists were patient and tolerant. Our hosts'
6-year-old daughter was allowed to cycle to the playground (about 3/4
mile) by herself on the road.
Her road skill weren't too clever.


Do you think the kudos associated with cycle sports in Italy rubs off on
leisure and utility cycling.


Does an italian middle age fat bloke popping down the shops on his

bianchi
have a little bit of a Fausto Coppi fantasy, the way a british bloke

going
to B&Q in his mondaeo might have a Colin Macrae moment?


Is that similar to the old "Stirling Moss" moment, as when the police
pulled you up and asked "Who you do you think you are then, Stirling
Moss?"


Apparently that once happened to Stirling Moss :-)

--
Tumbleweed

Remove my socks for email address



Simonb May 28th 04 10:23 AM

The _Observer_ on "deadly" bike lanes
 
Tumbleweed wrote:
"Chris Malcolm" wrote in message
Is that similar to the old "Stirling Moss" moment, as when the police
pulled you up and asked "Who you do you think you are then, Stirling
Moss?"


Apparently that once happened to Stirling Moss :-)


Never!



Richard May 28th 04 10:33 AM

The _Observer_ on "deadly" bike lanes
 
Simonb wrote:
Is that similar to the old "Stirling Moss" moment, as when the police
pulled you up and asked "Who you do you think you are then, Stirling
Moss?"


Apparently that once happened to Stirling Moss :-)


I also recall a report whereby a young whippersnapper, doing something
excessive on a motorway, was pulled over. He was asked, "Who do you
think you are, Nigel Mansell?" Which was indeed his name, although he
wasn't the NM of bushy moustache fame.


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