GPS Units = Show road steepness?
 

Talking about GPS units on another thread reminded me of something else I wondered if they do. Does a bicycle GPS unit show you the steepness of roads? There's an area that I frequently ride where on road has short but very steep hills, another road a mile or so east of it has much more gradual hills whilst a third road to the west of the first one is a major highway that can be ridden with a bicycle. What I'm wondering is this: if someone unfamiliar with the area got there and used a GPS unit to show those three roads, would the GPS unit show them the different gradients of the roads? Or is that another function that they'd need to download or otherwise install?

Cheers

GPS Units = Show road steepness?
 

Sir Ridesalot wrote:
Talking about GPS units on another thread reminded me of something else I
wondered if they do. Does a bicycle GPS unit show you the steepness of
roads? There's an area that I frequently ride where on road has short but
very steep hills, another road a mile or so east of it has much more
gradual hills whilst a third road to the west of the first one is a major
highway that can be ridden with a bicycle. What I'm wondering is this: if
someone unfamiliar with the area got there and used a GPS unit to show
those three roads, would the GPS unit show them the different gradients
of the roads? Or is that another function that they'd need to download or
otherwise install?

Cheers


My Garmin 705 shows the slope as I ride it, and historically, but not
preemptively. For that, I used Google Earth.

GPS Units = Show road steepness?
 

Sir Ridesalot wrote:
Talking about GPS units on another thread reminded me of something else I
wondered if they do. Does a bicycle GPS unit show you the steepness of
roads? There's an area that I frequently ride where on road has short but
very steep hills, another road a mile or so east of it has much more
gradual hills whilst a third road to the west of the first one is a major
highway that can be ridden with a bicycle. What I'm wondering is this: if
someone unfamiliar with the area got there and used a GPS unit to show
those three roads, would the GPS unit show them the different gradients
of the roads? Or is that another function that they'd need to download or
otherwise install?

Cheers


My Garmin can display the current gradient and I have that in my main
screen. There is also a page to show the upcoming elevations.

Generally though I look at the route in RideWithGPS before hand to get a
decent idea of what to expect from the elevation profile.

--
duane

GPS Units = Show road steepness?
 

Ralph Barone wrote:
Sir Ridesalot wrote:
Talking about GPS units on another thread reminded me of something else I
wondered if they do. Does a bicycle GPS unit show you the steepness of
roads? There's an area that I frequently ride where on road has short but
very steep hills, another road a mile or so east of it has much more
gradual hills whilst a third road to the west of the first one is a major
highway that can be ridden with a bicycle. What I'm wondering is this: if
someone unfamiliar with the area got there and used a GPS unit to show
those three roads, would the GPS unit show them the different gradients
of the roads? Or is that another function that they'd need to download or
otherwise install?

Cheers


My Garmin 705 shows the slope as I ride it, and historically, but not
preemptively. For that, I used Google Earth.



The edge 800 has an elevation screen.

--
duane

GPS Units = Show road steepness?
 

On 3/9/2019 4:46 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
Talking about GPS units on another thread reminded me of something else I wondered if they do. Does a bicycle GPS unit show you the steepness of roads? There's an area that I frequently ride where on road has short but very steep hills, another road a mile or so east of it has much more gradual hills whilst a third road to the west of the first one is a major highway that can be ridden with a bicycle. What I'm wondering is this: if someone unfamiliar with the area got there and used a GPS unit to show those three roads, would the GPS unit show them the different gradients of the roads? Or is that another function that they'd need to download or otherwise install?

Cheers

As others have noted, many (all?) Garmin units can display gradient (as
in "6% grade". As noted in another thread, GPS units are notoriously
not very accurate in their altitude calculation, so the more expensive
units have a barometric "backup". If you are using a pre-loaded course
(e.g. a .TCX file) on your GPS, (?some? ?all? my!) Garmins can display
the profile of the upcoming few miles.

My own experience over 7 years with Garmin units (that have barometric
"backup" to the altimeter calculation) is that the reported gradient is
/fairly/ consistently reported (on many rides over the same hills),
though the peak steepness will vary by a percent or so. Maybe that's
'cause I wasn't looking when the highest number was on the screen, or
because the unit updated at different points on the road on different
rides of the hill.

Finally, if you use ridewithgps.com, and I assume any similar
sites/software, note that gradient reporting there usually misses peak
values, as the software tends to average over larger segments of the
course. For example, on one local hill I ride a lot, the peak gradient
appears to be about 12% for maybe 50-100 feet, as measured with both GPS
and inclinometer. Ridewithgps.com reports a peak of 7.2%, which is
probably true if you average over longer segments.

Mark J.

GPS Units = Show road steepness?
 

On 3/10/2019 10:56 AM, Mark J. wrote:
On 3/9/2019 4:46 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
Talking about GPS units on another thread reminded me of something else I
wondered if they do. Does a bicycle GPS unit show you the steepness of roads?
There's an area that I frequently ride where on road has short but very steep
hills, another road a mile or so east of it has much more gradual hills whilst
a third road to the west of the first one is a major highway that can be
ridden with a bicycle. What I'm wondering is this: if someone unfamiliar with
the area got there and used a GPS unit to show those three roads, would the
GPS unit show them the different gradients of the roads? Or is that another
function that they'd need to download or otherwise install?

Cheers

As others have noted, many (all?) Garmin units can display gradient (as in "6%
grade".Â* As noted in another thread, GPS units are notoriously not very accurate
in their altitude calculation, so the more expensive units have a barometric
"backup".Â* If you are using a pre-loaded course (e.g. a .TCX file) on your GPS,
(?some? ?all? my!) Garmins can display the profile of the upcoming few miles.

My own experience over 7 years with Garmin units (that have barometric "backup"
to the altimeter calculation) is that the reported gradient is /fairly/
consistently reported (on many rides over the same hills), though the peak
steepness will vary by a percent or so.Â* Maybe that's 'cause I wasn't looking
when the highest number was on the screen, or because the unit updated at
different points on the road on different rides of the hill.

Finally, if you use ridewithgps.com, and I assume any similar sites/software,
note that gradient reporting there usually misses peak values, as the software
tends to average over larger segments of the course.Â* For example, on one local
hill I ride a lot, the peak gradient appears to be about 12% for maybe 50-100
feet, as measured with both GPS and inclinometer.Â* Ridewithgps.com reports a
peak of 7.2%, which is probably true if you average over longer segments.

Mark J.

Here's an article on the trickiness of measuring steepness:

http://www.roberts-1.com/b/v/e/08a/i...ring_steepness

GPS Units = Show road steepness?
 

On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 11:11:41 AM UTC-7, Bertrand wrote:
On 3/10/2019 10:56 AM, Mark J. wrote:
On 3/9/2019 4:46 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
Talking about GPS units on another thread reminded me of something else I
wondered if they do. Does a bicycle GPS unit show you the steepness of roads?
There's an area that I frequently ride where on road has short but very steep
hills, another road a mile or so east of it has much more gradual hills whilst
a third road to the west of the first one is a major highway that can be
ridden with a bicycle. What I'm wondering is this: if someone unfamiliar with
the area got there and used a GPS unit to show those three roads, would the
GPS unit show them the different gradients of the roads? Or is that another
function that they'd need to download or otherwise install?

Cheers

As others have noted, many (all?) Garmin units can display gradient (as in "6%
grade".Â* As noted in another thread, GPS units are notoriously not very accurate
in their altitude calculation, so the more expensive units have a barometric
"backup".Â* If you are using a pre-loaded course (e.g. a .TCX file) on your GPS,
(?some? ?all? my!) Garmins can display the profile of the upcoming few miles.

My own experience over 7 years with Garmin units (that have barometric "backup"
to the altimeter calculation) is that the reported gradient is /fairly/
consistently reported (on many rides over the same hills), though the peak
steepness will vary by a percent or so.Â* Maybe that's 'cause I wasn't looking
when the highest number was on the screen, or because the unit updated at
different points on the road on different rides of the hill.

Finally, if you use ridewithgps.com, and I assume any similar sites/software,
note that gradient reporting there usually misses peak values, as the software
tends to average over larger segments of the course.Â* For example, on one local
hill I ride a lot, the peak gradient appears to be about 12% for maybe 50-100
feet, as measured with both GPS and inclinometer.Â* Ridewithgps.com reports a
peak of 7.2%, which is probably true if you average over longer segments.

Mark J.

Here's an article on the trickiness of measuring steepness:

http://www.roberts-1.com/b/v/e/08a/i...ring_steepness

Since the usual GPS satellites are well over the horizon, using them to get an accurate altitude reading is difficult at the very least. Also the news ones are pretty low altitude and moving really fast. This compounds the problem.

So there has to be one hell of a lot of computation just to find your position let alone your altitude. Now let's make it more complicated - the MPU's use more energy the faster they operate so if you want your unit to last a long time and be reasonably compact AND do all of this computation you really have your hands full with just position let alone attempting to calculate altitude.

The way I would first look into it would be to use a satellite as close to zenith as possible and use signal transit time to calculate altitude.

GPS Units = Show road steepness?
 

On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 1:46:44 AM UTC+1, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
Talking about GPS units on another thread reminded me of something else I wondered if they do. Does a bicycle GPS unit show you the steepness of roads? There's an area that I frequently ride where on road has short but very steep hills, another road a mile or so east of it has much more gradual hills whilst a third road to the west of the first one is a major highway that can be ridden with a bicycle. What I'm wondering is this: if someone unfamiliar with the area got there and used a GPS unit to show those three roads, would the GPS unit show them the different gradients of the roads? Or is that another function that they'd need to download or otherwise install?

Cheers

GPS can show the actual gradient but it uses some sort of averaging algorithm which means it has a delay. This makes it pretty useless IMO. Besides this what are you gonna do if you know the exact gradient at that moment? GPS can tell you exactly were you are. For navigation you need a routable map and navigation software. Often people have a too high expectations of a GPS based cycling computer and end up never using the navigation capability and just have an expensive cycling computer or head unit as they are called now because speed sensors, cadence sensors, power meters, radar, lights, action camera's, HRM and your phone all connect to the unit and show their information on the head unit or can be operated using the head unit.

Lou

GPS Units = Show road steepness?
 

Sir Ridesalot wrote:
Talking about GPS units on another thread reminded me of something else I
wondered if they do. Does a bicycle GPS unit show you the steepness of
roads? There's an area that I frequently ride where on road has short but
very steep hills, another road a mile or so east of it has much more
gradual hills whilst a third road to the west of the first one is a major
highway that can be ridden with a bicycle. What I'm wondering is this: if
someone unfamiliar with the area got there and used a GPS unit to show
those three roads, would the GPS unit show them the different gradients
of the roads? Or is that another function that they'd need to download or
otherwise install?

Cheers


Various mapping sites will show the gradient, and some GPS units will show
the gradient, in the same way that it can give improbable maximum speeds
they can also give improbable max gradients or sometimes on very short
ramps not notice it, there is a nasty little ramp nr my folks place, which
is the software flattens claiming 12% when it’s a fair cruel 25/30% even
more cruel this weekend with a 50mph headwind.

Roger Merriman

GPS Units = Show road steepness?
 

On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 9:38:46 PM UTC+1, wrote:
On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 11:11:41 AM UTC-7, Bertrand wrote:
On 3/10/2019 10:56 AM, Mark J. wrote:
On 3/9/2019 4:46 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
Talking about GPS units on another thread reminded me of something else I
wondered if they do. Does a bicycle GPS unit show you the steepness of roads?
There's an area that I frequently ride where on road has short but very steep
hills, another road a mile or so east of it has much more gradual hills whilst
a third road to the west of the first one is a major highway that can be
ridden with a bicycle. What I'm wondering is this: if someone unfamiliar with
the area got there and used a GPS unit to show those three roads, would the
GPS unit show them the different gradients of the roads? Or is that another
function that they'd need to download or otherwise install?

Cheers

As others have noted, many (all?) Garmin units can display gradient (as in "6%
grade".Â* As noted in another thread, GPS units are notoriously not very accurate
in their altitude calculation, so the more expensive units have a barometric
"backup".Â* If you are using a pre-loaded course (e.g. a .TCX file) on your GPS,
(?some? ?all? my!) Garmins can display the profile of the upcoming few miles.

My own experience over 7 years with Garmin units (that have barometric "backup"
to the altimeter calculation) is that the reported gradient is /fairly/
consistently reported (on many rides over the same hills), though the peak
steepness will vary by a percent or so.Â* Maybe that's 'cause I wasn't looking
when the highest number was on the screen, or because the unit updated at
different points on the road on different rides of the hill.

Finally, if you use ridewithgps.com, and I assume any similar sites/software,
note that gradient reporting there usually misses peak values, as the software
tends to average over larger segments of the course.Â* For example, on one local
hill I ride a lot, the peak gradient appears to be about 12% for maybe 50-100
feet, as measured with both GPS and inclinometer.Â* Ridewithgps.com reports a
peak of 7.2%, which is probably true if you average over longer segments.

Mark J.

Here's an article on the trickiness of measuring steepness:

http://www.roberts-1.com/b/v/e/08a/i...ring_steepness

Since the usual GPS satellites are well over the horizon, using them to get an accurate altitude reading is difficult at the very least. Also the news ones are pretty low altitude and moving really fast. This compounds the problem.

So there has to be one hell of a lot of computation just to find your position let alone your altitude. Now let's make it more complicated - the MPU's use more energy the faster they operate so if you want your unit to last a long time and be reasonably compact AND do all of this computation you really have your hands full with just position let alone attempting to calculate altitude.

The way I would first look into it would be to use a satellite as close to zenith as possible and use signal transit time to calculate altitude.

For every position on earth the altitude is known (measured during a Space shuttle mission if I recall correctly). The information is available for free. I use it to correct the altitude measurements of my rides afterwards. It should be possible for a GPS unit to show the altitude based on the measured position instead of trying to calculate it or measuring it with a barometer.

Lou

GPS Units = Show road steepness?
 

On 3/10/2019 6:29 PM, wrote:

GPS can show the actual gradient but it uses some sort of averaging algorithm which means it has a delay. This makes it pretty useless IMO. Besides this what are you gonna do if you know the exact gradient at that moment? GPS can tell you exactly were you are. For navigation you need a routable map and navigation software. Often people have a too high expectations of a GPS based cycling computer and end up never using the navigation capability and just have an expensive cycling computer or head unit as they are called now because speed sensors, cadence sensors, power meters, radar, lights, action camera's, HRM and your phone all connect to the unit and show their information on the head unit or can be operated using the head unit.

What?? No television??


--
- Frank Krygowski

GPS Units = Show road steepness?
 

On Sun, 10 Mar 2019 20:01:13 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/10/2019 6:29 PM, wrote:

GPS can show the actual gradient but it uses some sort of averaging algorithm which means it has a delay. This makes it pretty useless IMO. Besides this what are you gonna do if you know the exact gradient at that moment? GPS can tell you exactly were you are. For navigation you need a routable map and navigation software. Often people have a too high expectations of a GPS based cycling computer and end up never using the navigation capability and just have an expensive cycling computer or head unit as they are called now because speed sensors, cadence sensors, power meters, radar, lights, action camera's, HRM and your phone all connect to the unit and show their information on the head unit or can be operated using the head unit.

What?? No television??

The Electric Bike Worldwide Report predicts that the electric bike
industry is poised to grow to 2 billion by 2050. Eventually 84 million
e-bikes could be sold each year.

One can envision a day when bicycles will be totally enclosed and
equipped with air conditioning and stereophonic sound :-)

One can only assume that once the electric bike is established riding
a bicycle will equate with the exercise value of sitting in front of
the T.V.


--
Cheers,
John B.

GPS Units = Show road steepness?
 

On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 1:01:15 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/10/2019 6:29 PM, wrote:

GPS can show the actual gradient but it uses some sort of averaging algorithm which means it has a delay. This makes it pretty useless IMO. Besides this what are you gonna do if you know the exact gradient at that moment? GPS can tell you exactly were you are. For navigation you need a routable map and navigation software. Often people have a too high expectations of a GPS based cycling computer and end up never using the navigation capability and just have an expensive cycling computer or head unit as they are called now because speed sensors, cadence sensors, power meters, radar, lights, action camera's, HRM and your phone all connect to the unit and show their information on the head unit or can be operated using the head unit.

What?? No television??


--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank you are so predictable. You becoming a caricature of yourself.

Lou

GPS Units = Show road steepness?
 

On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 2:52:23 AM UTC+1, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 10 Mar 2019 20:01:13 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/10/2019 6:29 PM, wrote:

GPS can show the actual gradient but it uses some sort of averaging algorithm which means it has a delay. This makes it pretty useless IMO. Besides this what are you gonna do if you know the exact gradient at that moment? GPS can tell you exactly were you are. For navigation you need a routable map and navigation software. Often people have a too high expectations of a GPS based cycling computer and end up never using the navigation capability and just have an expensive cycling computer or head unit as they are called now because speed sensors, cadence sensors, power meters, radar, lights, action camera's, HRM and your phone all connect to the unit and show their information on the head unit or can be operated using the head unit.

What?? No television??

The Electric Bike Worldwide Report predicts that the electric bike
industry is poised to grow to 2 billion by 2050. Eventually 84 million
e-bikes could be sold each year.

One can envision a day when bicycles will be totally enclosed and
equipped with air conditioning and stereophonic sound :-)

One can only assume that once the electric bike is established riding
a bicycle will equate with the exercise value of sitting in front of
the T.V.


--
Cheers,
John B.

40% of the bike sales last year in The Netherlands was an electric assisted bike. Get used to it.

GPS Units = Show road steepness?
 

On 11/03/2019 9:24 a.m., wrote:
On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 2:52:23 AM UTC+1, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 10 Mar 2019 20:01:13 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/10/2019 6:29 PM, wrote:

GPS can show the actual gradient but it uses some sort of averaging algorithm which means it has a delay. This makes it pretty useless IMO. Besides this what are you gonna do if you know the exact gradient at that moment? GPS can tell you exactly were you are. For navigation you need a routable map and navigation software. Often people have a too high expectations of a GPS based cycling computer and end up never using the navigation capability and just have an expensive cycling computer or head unit as they are called now because speed sensors, cadence sensors, power meters, radar, lights, action camera's, HRM and your phone all connect to the unit and show their information on the head unit or can be operated using the head unit.

What?? No television??

The Electric Bike Worldwide Report predicts that the electric bike
industry is poised to grow to 2 billion by 2050. Eventually 84 million
e-bikes could be sold each year.

One can envision a day when bicycles will be totally enclosed and
equipped with air conditioning and stereophonic sound :-)

One can only assume that once the electric bike is established riding
a bicycle will equate with the exercise value of sitting in front of
the T.V.


--
Cheers,
John B.

40% of the bike sales last year in The Netherlands was an electric assisted bike. Get used to it.


A riding buddy of mine got his wife an e-bike last year. She used to
complain about his spending time on his bike. Now she's the one pushing
to ride. I'm not ready for one but I wouldn't necessarily equate an
e-bike with sitting in front of the T.V.

GPS Units = Show road steepness?
 

On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 3:29:43 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 1:46:44 AM UTC+1, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
Talking about GPS units on another thread reminded me of something else I wondered if they do. Does a bicycle GPS unit show you the steepness of roads? There's an area that I frequently ride where on road has short but very steep hills, another road a mile or so east of it has much more gradual hills whilst a third road to the west of the first one is a major highway that can be ridden with a bicycle. What I'm wondering is this: if someone unfamiliar with the area got there and used a GPS unit to show those three roads, would the GPS unit show them the different gradients of the roads? Or is that another function that they'd need to download or otherwise install?

Cheers

GPS can show the actual gradient but it uses some sort of averaging algorithm which means it has a delay. This makes it pretty useless IMO. Besides this what are you gonna do if you know the exact gradient at that moment? GPS can tell you exactly were you are. For navigation you need a routable map and navigation software. Often people have a too high expectations of a GPS based cycling computer and end up never using the navigation capability and just have an expensive cycling computer or head unit as they are called now because speed sensors, cadence sensors, power meters, radar, lights, action camera's, HRM and your phone all connect to the unit and show their information on the head unit or can be operated using the head unit.

Lou

You are correct that actual gradient is absolutely useless except for human curiosity and bragging rights to the gradient climbed.

GPS Units = Show road steepness?
 

On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 3:18:06 PM UTC+1, duane wrote:
On 11/03/2019 9:24 a.m., wrote:
On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 2:52:23 AM UTC+1, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 10 Mar 2019 20:01:13 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/10/2019 6:29 PM, wrote:

GPS can show the actual gradient but it uses some sort of averaging algorithm which means it has a delay. This makes it pretty useless IMO. Besides this what are you gonna do if you know the exact gradient at that moment? GPS can tell you exactly were you are. For navigation you need a routable map and navigation software. Often people have a too high expectations of a GPS based cycling computer and end up never using the navigation capability and just have an expensive cycling computer or head unit as they are called now because speed sensors, cadence sensors, power meters, radar, lights, action camera's, HRM and your phone all connect to the unit and show their information on the head unit or can be operated using the head unit.

What?? No television??

The Electric Bike Worldwide Report predicts that the electric bike
industry is poised to grow to 2 billion by 2050. Eventually 84 million
e-bikes could be sold each year.

One can envision a day when bicycles will be totally enclosed and
equipped with air conditioning and stereophonic sound :-)

One can only assume that once the electric bike is established riding
a bicycle will equate with the exercise value of sitting in front of
the T.V.


--
Cheers,
John B.

40% of the bike sales last year in The Netherlands was an electric assisted bike. Get used to it.


A riding buddy of mine got his wife an e-bike last year. She used to
complain about his spending time on his bike. Now she's the one pushing
to ride. I'm not ready for one but I wouldn't necessarily equate an
e-bike with sitting in front of the T.V.

It is certainly not the same as sitting in front of the TV. You may make fun of it but the introduction of the E bike gave cycling an enormous boost in the last 5 years even here in The Netherlands. That is a good thing. Bike sales are way up.

Lou

GPS Units = Show road steepness?
 

On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 6:35:02 PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:
Sir Ridesalot wrote:
Talking about GPS units on another thread reminded me of something else I
wondered if they do. Does a bicycle GPS unit show you the steepness of
roads? There's an area that I frequently ride where on road has short but
very steep hills, another road a mile or so east of it has much more
gradual hills whilst a third road to the west of the first one is a major
highway that can be ridden with a bicycle. What I'm wondering is this: if
someone unfamiliar with the area got there and used a GPS unit to show
those three roads, would the GPS unit show them the different gradients
of the roads? Or is that another function that they'd need to download or
otherwise install?

Cheers


Various mapping sites will show the gradient, and some GPS units will show
the gradient, in the same way that it can give improbable maximum speeds
they can also give improbable max gradients or sometimes on very short
ramps not notice it, there is a nasty little ramp nr my folks place, which
is the software flattens claiming 12% when it’s a fair cruel 25/30% even
more cruel this weekend with a 50mph headwind.

It's probably an averaging issue - taking enough samples before and after the section so that it flattens the pitch.

GPS Units = Show road steepness?
 

Zen Cycle writes:

On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 6:35:02 PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:
Sir Ridesalot wrote:
Talking about GPS units on another thread reminded me of something else I
wondered if they do. Does a bicycle GPS unit show you the steepness of
roads? There's an area that I frequently ride where on road has short but
very steep hills, another road a mile or so east of it has much more
gradual hills whilst a third road to the west of the first one is a major
highway that can be ridden with a bicycle. What I'm wondering is this: if
someone unfamiliar with the area got there and used a GPS unit to show
those three roads, would the GPS unit show them the different gradients
of the roads? Or is that another function that they'd need to download or
otherwise install?

Cheers


Various mapping sites will show the gradient, and some GPS units will show
the gradient, in the same way that it can give improbable maximum speeds
they can also give improbable max gradients or sometimes on very short
ramps not notice it, there is a nasty little ramp nr my folks place, which
is the software flattens claiming 12% when it’s a fair cruel 25/30% even
more cruel this weekend with a 50mph headwind.

It's probably an averaging issue - taking enough samples before and
after the section so that it flattens the pitch.

It's the same basic issue as the speedometer kerfluffle. Numerical
differentiation amplifies noise.

--

GPS Units = Show road steepness?
 

On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 11:09:47 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 3:18:06 PM UTC+1, duane wrote:
On 11/03/2019 9:24 a.m., wrote:
On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 2:52:23 AM UTC+1, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 10 Mar 2019 20:01:13 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/10/2019 6:29 PM, wrote:

GPS can show the actual gradient but it uses some sort of averaging algorithm which means it has a delay. This makes it pretty useless IMO. Besides this what are you gonna do if you know the exact gradient at that moment? GPS can tell you exactly were you are. For navigation you need a routable map and navigation software. Often people have a too high expectations of a GPS based cycling computer and end up never using the navigation capability and just have an expensive cycling computer or head unit as they are called now because speed sensors, cadence sensors, power meters, radar, lights, action camera's, HRM and your phone all connect to the unit and show their information on the head unit or can be operated using the head unit.

What?? No television??

The Electric Bike Worldwide Report predicts that the electric bike
industry is poised to grow to 2 billion by 2050. Eventually 84 million
e-bikes could be sold each year.

One can envision a day when bicycles will be totally enclosed and
equipped with air conditioning and stereophonic sound :-)

One can only assume that once the electric bike is established riding
a bicycle will equate with the exercise value of sitting in front of
the T.V.


--
Cheers,
John B.

40% of the bike sales last year in The Netherlands was an electric assisted bike. Get used to it.


A riding buddy of mine got his wife an e-bike last year. She used to
complain about his spending time on his bike. Now she's the one pushing
to ride. I'm not ready for one but I wouldn't necessarily equate an
e-bike with sitting in front of the T.V.

It is certainly not the same as sitting in front of the TV. You may make fun of it but the introduction of the E bike gave cycling an enormous boost in the last 5 years even here in The Netherlands. That is a good thing. Bike sales are way up.

Lou

I hate people on eBikes. But then again, I hate people on regular bikes. Traffic is traffic. With eBikes, though, you end up with otherwise unskilled riders who ride really fast in bike traffic. Fast dopes. Really fast unassisted riders are generally skilled -- not always, but generally. Imagine a pack of eBikers. It would make a Cat 5 race look safe.

-- Jay Beattie.

GPS Units = Show road steepness?
 

On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 3:28:58 PM UTC-4, Radey Shouman wrote:
Zen Cycle writes:

On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 6:35:02 PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:
Sir Ridesalot wrote:
Talking about GPS units on another thread reminded me of something else I
wondered if they do. Does a bicycle GPS unit show you the steepness of
roads? There's an area that I frequently ride where on road has short but
very steep hills, another road a mile or so east of it has much more
gradual hills whilst a third road to the west of the first one is a major
highway that can be ridden with a bicycle. What I'm wondering is this: if
someone unfamiliar with the area got there and used a GPS unit to show
those three roads, would the GPS unit show them the different gradients
of the roads? Or is that another function that they'd need to download or
otherwise install?

Cheers


Various mapping sites will show the gradient, and some GPS units will show
the gradient, in the same way that it can give improbable maximum speeds
they can also give improbable max gradients or sometimes on very short
ramps not notice it, there is a nasty little ramp nr my folks place, which
is the software flattens claiming 12% when it’s a fair cruel 25/30% even
more cruel this weekend with a 50mph headwind.

It's probably an averaging issue - taking enough samples before and
after the section so that it flattens the pitch.

It's the same basic issue as the speedometer kerfluffle. Numerical
differentiation amplifies noise.

Interesting how you characterize it as 'noise'.

GPS Units = Show road steepness?
 

On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 4:23:58 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 11:09:47 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 3:18:06 PM UTC+1, duane wrote:
On 11/03/2019 9:24 a.m., wrote:
On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 2:52:23 AM UTC+1, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 10 Mar 2019 20:01:13 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/10/2019 6:29 PM, wrote:

GPS can show the actual gradient but it uses some sort of averaging algorithm which means it has a delay. This makes it pretty useless IMO.. Besides this what are you gonna do if you know the exact gradient at that moment? GPS can tell you exactly were you are. For navigation you need a routable map and navigation software. Often people have a too high expectations of a GPS based cycling computer and end up never using the navigation capability and just have an expensive cycling computer or head unit as they are called now because speed sensors, cadence sensors, power meters, radar, lights, action camera's, HRM and your phone all connect to the unit and show their information on the head unit or can be operated using the head unit.

GPS Units = Show road steepness?
 

On 3/11/2019 3:23 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 11:09:47 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 3:18:06 PM UTC+1, duane wrote:
On 11/03/2019 9:24 a.m., wrote:
On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 2:52:23 AM UTC+1, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 10 Mar 2019 20:01:13 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/10/2019 6:29 PM, wrote:

GPS can show the actual gradient but it uses some sort of averaging algorithm which means it has a delay. This makes it pretty useless IMO. Besides this what are you gonna do if you know the exact gradient at that moment? GPS can tell you exactly were you are. For navigation you need a routable map and navigation software. Often people have a too high expectations of a GPS based cycling computer and end up never using the navigation capability and just have an expensive cycling computer or head unit as they are called now because speed sensors, cadence sensors, power meters, radar, lights, action camera's, HRM and your phone all connect to the unit and show their information on the head unit or can be operated using the head unit.

What?? No television??

The Electric Bike Worldwide Report predicts that the electric bike
industry is poised to grow to 2 billion by 2050. Eventually 84 million
e-bikes could be sold each year.

One can envision a day when bicycles will be totally enclosed and
equipped with air conditioning and stereophonic sound :-)

One can only assume that once the electric bike is established riding
a bicycle will equate with the exercise value of sitting in front of
the T.V.


--
Cheers,
John B.

40% of the bike sales last year in The Netherlands was an electric assisted bike. Get used to it.


A riding buddy of mine got his wife an e-bike last year. She used to
complain about his spending time on his bike. Now she's the one pushing
to ride. I'm not ready for one but I wouldn't necessarily equate an
e-bike with sitting in front of the T.V.

It is certainly not the same as sitting in front of the TV. You may make fun of it but the introduction of the E bike gave cycling an enormous boost in the last 5 years even here in The Netherlands. That is a good thing. Bike sales are way up.

Lou

I hate people on eBikes. But then again, I hate people on regular bikes. Traffic is traffic. With eBikes, though, you end up with otherwise unskilled riders who ride really fast in bike traffic. Fast dopes. Really fast unassisted riders are generally skilled -- not always, but generally. Imagine a pack of eBikers. It would make a Cat 5 race look safe.

-- Jay Beattie.


+1.
Just wait for eBikes with 'autonomous navigation' a.k.a.
'killer robots'.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

GPS Units = Show road steepness?
 

On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 4:23:58 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
With eBikes, though, you end up with otherwise unskilled riders who ride really fast in bike traffic. Fast dopes. Really fast unassisted riders are generally skilled -- not always, but generally. Imagine a pack of eBikers.. It would make a Cat 5 race look safe.

That same point has been made elsewhere by John Schubert,
who's a pretty notable bike expert. As he explained, it
usually takes quite a lot of riding to get fast on a bike.
During that time, you tend to learn from your mistakes,
if nothing else, and most of those mistakes happen at
low speed.

Now you can get fast on a bike by buying or renting one
with an electric motor. You get to make all your
beginner mistakes at 18 mph. Whee!

A similar situation happens with motorcycles. And the
terrible safety stats for motorcycles are dominated by
beginners.

- Frank Krygowski

GPS Units = Show road steepness?
 

On Mon, 11 Mar 2019 13:56:42 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 4:23:58 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 11:09:47 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 3:18:06 PM UTC+1, duane wrote:
On 11/03/2019 9:24 a.m., wrote:
On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 2:52:23 AM UTC+1, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 10 Mar 2019 20:01:13 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/10/2019 6:29 PM, wrote:

GPS can show the actual gradient but it uses some sort of averaging algorithm which means it has a delay. This makes it pretty useless IMO. Besides this what are you gonna do if you know the exact gradient at that moment? GPS can tell you exactly were you are. For navigation you need a routable map and navigation software. Often people have a too high expectations of a GPS based cycling computer and end up never using the navigation capability and just have an expensive cycling computer or head unit as they are called now because speed sensors, cadence sensors, power meters, radar, lights, action camera's, HRM and your phone all connect to the unit and show their information on the head unit or can be operated using the head unit.

What?? No television??

The Electric Bike Worldwide Report predicts that the electric bike
industry is poised to grow to 2 billion by 2050. Eventually 84 million
e-bikes could be sold each year.

One can envision a day when bicycles will be totally enclosed and
equipped with air conditioning and stereophonic sound :-)

One can only assume that once the electric bike is established riding
a bicycle will equate with the exercise value of sitting in front of
the T.V.


--
Cheers,
John B.

40% of the bike sales last year in The Netherlands was an electric assisted bike. Get used to it.


A riding buddy of mine got his wife an e-bike last year. She used to
complain about his spending time on his bike. Now she's the one pushing
to ride. I'm not ready for one but I wouldn't necessarily equate an
e-bike with sitting in front of the T.V.

It is certainly not the same as sitting in front of the TV. You may make fun of it but the introduction of the E bike gave cycling an enormous boost in the last 5 years even here in The Netherlands. That is a good thing. Bike sales are way up.

Lou

I hate people on eBikes. But then again, I hate people on regular bikes. Traffic is traffic. With eBikes, though, you end up with otherwise unskilled riders who ride really fast in bike traffic. Fast dopes. Really fast unassisted riders are generally skilled -- not always, but generally. Imagine a pack of eBikers. It would make a Cat 5 race look safe.

-- Jay Beattie.

I just LOVE those ebikers who zoom up and pass you on the right
just as you're moving to the right. There's a intersection here in
town that's like a shallow with the right hand lane going onto
another street and that lane is right hand only no through traffic. So
many times I've nearly been hit as I continued along the straight
through lane and then begun to move to my right to allow the big
trucks room. That's because some idiot ebiker (and sometimes a regular
bicyclist) continues straight instead of following the right hand lane
onto the other road like they're supposed to. Being passed on the
right is NOT something you normally expect to happen on the road or
trail yet a large n umber of ebikers I've seen do precisely that.
That's not to mention other illegal and dangerous behaviours I see
them do on the roads. I often wonder if eventually ebikes will require
a license in order to operate? Like you said a fast unskilled rider on
an ebike can be a hazard to everyone else in
their vicinity.

Cheers


Singapore requires e-bikes to be registered and carry a registration
plate and imposes a speed limit which is enforced, the penalty is a
$1,000 fine and/or a three month jail sentence. The speed limit is
10kph on foot paths and 25kph on "shared paths".

--
Cheers,
John B.

GPS Units = Show road steepness?
 

On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 7:32:42 PM UTC-4, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 11 Mar 2019 13:56:42 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 4:23:58 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 11:09:47 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 3:18:06 PM UTC+1, duane wrote:
On 11/03/2019 9:24 a.m., wrote:
On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 2:52:23 AM UTC+1, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 10 Mar 2019 20:01:13 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/10/2019 6:29 PM, wrote:

GPS can show the actual gradient but it uses some sort of averaging algorithm which means it has a delay. This makes it pretty useless IMO. Besides this what are you gonna do if you know the exact gradient at that moment? GPS can tell you exactly were you are. For navigation you need a routable map and navigation software. Often people have a too high expectations of a GPS based cycling computer and end up never using the navigation capability and just have an expensive cycling computer or head unit as they are called now because speed sensors, cadence sensors, power meters, radar, lights, action camera's, HRM and your phone all connect to the unit and show their information on the head unit or can be operated using the head unit.

What?? No television??

The Electric Bike Worldwide Report predicts that the electric bike
industry is poised to grow to 2 billion by 2050. Eventually 84 million
e-bikes could be sold each year.

One can envision a day when bicycles will be totally enclosed and
equipped with air conditioning and stereophonic sound :-)

One can only assume that once the electric bike is established riding
a bicycle will equate with the exercise value of sitting in front of
the T.V.


--
Cheers,
John B.

40% of the bike sales last year in The Netherlands was an electric assisted bike. Get used to it.


A riding buddy of mine got his wife an e-bike last year. She used to
complain about his spending time on his bike. Now she's the one pushing
to ride. I'm not ready for one but I wouldn't necessarily equate an
e-bike with sitting in front of the T.V.

It is certainly not the same as sitting in front of the TV. You may make fun of it but the introduction of the E bike gave cycling an enormous boost in the last 5 years even here in The Netherlands. That is a good thing. Bike sales are way up.

Lou

I hate people on eBikes. But then again, I hate people on regular bikes. Traffic is traffic. With eBikes, though, you end up with otherwise unskilled riders who ride really fast in bike traffic. Fast dopes. Really fast unassisted riders are generally skilled -- not always, but generally. Imagine a pack of eBikers. It would make a Cat 5 race look safe.

-- Jay Beattie.

I just LOVE those ebikers who zoom up and pass you on the right
just as you're moving to the right. There's a intersection here in
town that's like a shallow with the right hand lane going onto
another street and that lane is right hand only no through traffic. So
many times I've nearly been hit as I continued along the straight
through lane and then begun to move to my right to allow the big
trucks room. That's because some idiot ebiker (and sometimes a regular
bicyclist) continues straight instead of following the right hand lane
onto the other road like they're supposed to. Being passed on the
right is NOT something you normally expect to happen on the road or
trail yet a large n umber of ebikers I've seen do precisely that.
That's not to mention other illegal and dangerous behaviours I see
them do on the roads. I often wonder if eventually ebikes will require
a license in order to operate? Like you said a fast unskilled rider on
an ebike can be a hazard to everyone else in
their vicinity.

Cheers


Singapore requires e-bikes to be registered and carry a registration
plate and imposes a speed limit which is enforced, the penalty is a
$1,000 fine and/or a three month jail sentence. The speed limit is
10kph on foot paths and 25kph on "shared paths".

--
Cheers,
John B.

Sounds like what we are going to need here. How about bicycles? Do those require registration too?

Cheers

GPS Units = Show road steepness?
 

On Mon, 11 Mar 2019 17:07:44 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 7:32:42 PM UTC-4, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 11 Mar 2019 13:56:42 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 4:23:58 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 11:09:47 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 3:18:06 PM UTC+1, duane wrote:
On 11/03/2019 9:24 a.m., wrote:
On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 2:52:23 AM UTC+1, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 10 Mar 2019 20:01:13 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/10/2019 6:29 PM, wrote:

GPS can show the actual gradient but it uses some sort of averaging algorithm which means it has a delay. This makes it pretty useless IMO. Besides this what are you gonna do if you know the exact gradient at that moment? GPS can tell you exactly were you are. For navigation you need a routable map and navigation software. Often people have a too high expectations of a GPS based cycling computer and end up never using the navigation capability and just have an expensive cycling computer or head unit as they are called now because speed sensors, cadence sensors, power meters, radar, lights, action camera's, HRM and your phone all connect to the unit and show their information on the head unit or can be operated using the head unit.

What?? No television??

The Electric Bike Worldwide Report predicts that the electric bike
industry is poised to grow to 2 billion by 2050. Eventually 84 million
e-bikes could be sold each year.

One can envision a day when bicycles will be totally enclosed and
equipped with air conditioning and stereophonic sound :-)

One can only assume that once the electric bike is established riding
a bicycle will equate with the exercise value of sitting in front of
the T.V.


--
Cheers,
John B.

40% of the bike sales last year in The Netherlands was an electric assisted bike. Get used to it.


A riding buddy of mine got his wife an e-bike last year. She used to
complain about his spending time on his bike. Now she's the one pushing
to ride. I'm not ready for one but I wouldn't necessarily equate an
e-bike with sitting in front of the T.V.

It is certainly not the same as sitting in front of the TV. You may make fun of it but the introduction of the E bike gave cycling an enormous boost in the last 5 years even here in The Netherlands. That is a good thing. Bike sales are way up.

Lou

I hate people on eBikes. But then again, I hate people on regular bikes. Traffic is traffic. With eBikes, though, you end up with otherwise unskilled riders who ride really fast in bike traffic. Fast dopes. Really fast unassisted riders are generally skilled -- not always, but generally. Imagine a pack of eBikers. It would make a Cat 5 race look safe.

-- Jay Beattie.

I just LOVE those ebikers who zoom up and pass you on the right
just as you're moving to the right. There's a intersection here in
town that's like a shallow with the right hand lane going onto
another street and that lane is right hand only no through traffic. So
many times I've nearly been hit as I continued along the straight
through lane and then begun to move to my right to allow the big
trucks room. That's because some idiot ebiker (and sometimes a regular
bicyclist) continues straight instead of following the right hand lane
onto the other road like they're supposed to. Being passed on the
right is NOT something you normally expect to happen on the road or
trail yet a large n umber of ebikers I've seen do precisely that.
That's not to mention other illegal and dangerous behaviours I see
them do on the roads. I often wonder if eventually ebikes will require
a license in order to operate? Like you said a fast unskilled rider on
an ebike can be a hazard to everyone else in
their vicinity.

Cheers


Singapore requires e-bikes to be registered and carry a registration
plate and imposes a speed limit which is enforced, the penalty is a
$1,000 fine and/or a three month jail sentence. The speed limit is
10kph on foot paths and 25kph on "shared paths".

--
Cheers,
John B.

Sounds like what we are going to need here. How about bicycles? Do those require registration too?

Cheers

As far as I know human powered bicycles do not require registration
but there are rules and regulations. For example: Wear a helmet when
cycling on roads, obey all traffic signals and travel in the same
direction as the traffic flow, cycle in a single file on single lane
roads, turn on a white front light and a red rear light in the dark.
Note that the penalty for failing to follow these rules is a $1,000
fine and/or a three month prison sentence.

There are a bunch of other rules, like giving hand signals and only
carrying a maximum of one other person and so on.

They also have a law that states that the use of "a mobile telephone
and any hand-held device which is designed or capable of being used
for a communicative function" while the vehicle is moving is subject
to a penalty of a $1,000 fine and/or a six month prison sentence.

And more to the point, they do enforce these rules.

--
Cheers,
John B.

GPS Units = Show road steepness?
 

On Tue, 12 Mar 2019 07:37:30 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Mon, 11 Mar 2019 17:07:44 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 7:32:42 PM UTC-4, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 11 Mar 2019 13:56:42 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 4:23:58 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 11:09:47 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 3:18:06 PM UTC+1, duane wrote:
On 11/03/2019 9:24 a.m., wrote:
On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 2:52:23 AM UTC+1, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 10 Mar 2019 20:01:13 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/10/2019 6:29 PM, wrote:

GPS can show the actual gradient but it uses some sort of averaging algorithm which means it has a delay. This makes it pretty useless IMO. Besides this what are you gonna do if you know the exact gradient at that moment? GPS can tell you exactly were you are. For navigation you need a routable map and navigation software. Often people have a too high expectations of a GPS based cycling computer and end up never using the navigation capability and just have an expensive cycling computer or head unit as they are called now because speed sensors, cadence sensors, power meters, radar, lights, action camera's, HRM and your phone all connect to the unit and show their information on the head unit or can be operated using the head unit.

What?? No television??

The Electric Bike Worldwide Report predicts that the electric bike
industry is poised to grow to 2 billion by 2050. Eventually 84 million
e-bikes could be sold each year.

One can envision a day when bicycles will be totally enclosed and
equipped with air conditioning and stereophonic sound :-)

One can only assume that once the electric bike is established riding
a bicycle will equate with the exercise value of sitting in front of
the T.V.


--
Cheers,
John B.

40% of the bike sales last year in The Netherlands was an electric assisted bike. Get used to it.


A riding buddy of mine got his wife an e-bike last year. She used to
complain about his spending time on his bike. Now she's the one pushing
to ride. I'm not ready for one but I wouldn't necessarily equate an
e-bike with sitting in front of the T.V.

It is certainly not the same as sitting in front of the TV. You may make fun of it but the introduction of the E bike gave cycling an enormous boost in the last 5 years even here in The Netherlands. That is a good thing. Bike sales are way up.

Lou

I hate people on eBikes. But then again, I hate people on regular bikes. Traffic is traffic. With eBikes, though, you end up with otherwise unskilled riders who ride really fast in bike traffic. Fast dopes. Really fast unassisted riders are generally skilled -- not always, but generally. Imagine a pack of eBikers. It would make a Cat 5 race look safe.

-- Jay Beattie.

I just LOVE those ebikers who zoom up and pass you on the right
just as you're moving to the right. There's a intersection here in
town that's like a shallow with the right hand lane going onto
another street and that lane is right hand only no through traffic. So
many times I've nearly been hit as I continued along the straight
through lane and then begun to move to my right to allow the big
trucks room. That's because some idiot ebiker (and sometimes a regular
bicyclist) continues straight instead of following the right hand lane
onto the other road like they're supposed to. Being passed on the
right is NOT something you normally expect to happen on the road or
trail yet a large n umber of ebikers I've seen do precisely that.
That's not to mention other illegal and dangerous behaviours I see
them do on the roads. I often wonder if eventually ebikes will require
a license in order to operate? Like you said a fast unskilled rider on
an ebike can be a hazard to everyone else in
their vicinity.

Cheers


Singapore requires e-bikes to be registered and carry a registration
plate and imposes a speed limit which is enforced, the penalty is a
$1,000 fine and/or a three month jail sentence. The speed limit is
10kph on foot paths and 25kph on "shared paths".

--
Cheers,
John B.

Sounds like what we are going to need here. How about bicycles? Do those require registration too?

Cheers

As far as I know human powered bicycles do not require registration
but there are rules and regulations. For example: Wear a helmet when
cycling on roads, obey all traffic signals and travel in the same
direction as the traffic flow, cycle in a single file on single lane
roads, turn on a white front light and a red rear light in the dark.
Note that the penalty for failing to follow these rules is a $1,000
fine and/or a three month prison sentence.

There are a bunch of other rules, like giving hand signals and only
carrying a maximum of one other person and so on.

They also have a law that states that the use of "a mobile telephone
and any hand-held device which is designed or capable of being used
for a communicative function" while the vehicle is moving is subject
to a penalty of a $1,000 fine and/or a six month prison sentence.

And more to the point, they do enforce these rules.

As an addendum, the average monthly salary in Singapore is about
S$5,700 so based on an average month of 30.42 days and a 6 day work
week is about 26 work days per month so average working day's salary
is about $219 and a $1,000 fine then amounts to about 5 days salary.

--
Cheers,
John B.

GPS Units = Show road steepness?
 

Radey Shouman wrote:
Zen Cycle writes:

On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 6:35:02 PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:
Sir Ridesalot wrote:
Talking about GPS units on another thread reminded me of something else I
wondered if they do. Does a bicycle GPS unit show you the steepness of
roads? There's an area that I frequently ride where on road has short but
very steep hills, another road a mile or so east of it has much more
gradual hills whilst a third road to the west of the first one is a major
highway that can be ridden with a bicycle. What I'm wondering is this: if
someone unfamiliar with the area got there and used a GPS unit to show
those three roads, would the GPS unit show them the different gradients
of the roads? Or is that another function that they'd need to download or
otherwise install?

Cheers


Various mapping sites will show the gradient, and some GPS units will show
the gradient, in the same way that it can give improbable maximum speeds
they can also give improbable max gradients or sometimes on very short
ramps not notice it, there is a nasty little ramp nr my folks place, which
is the software flattens claiming 12% when it’s a fair cruel 25/30% even
more cruel this weekend with a 50mph headwind.

It's probably an averaging issue - taking enough samples before and
after the section so that it flattens the pitch.

It's the same basic issue as the speedometer kerfluffle. Numerical
differentiation amplifies noise.


I would think it was the opposite. Numerical integration suppresses spikes.

GPS Units = Show road steepness?
 

On Saturday, March 9, 2019 at 6:46:44 PM UTC-6, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
Talking about GPS units on another thread reminded me of something else I wondered if they do. Does a bicycle GPS unit show you the steepness of roads? There's an area that I frequently ride where on road has short but very steep hills, another road a mile or so east of it has much more gradual hills whilst a third road to the west of the first one is a major highway that can be ridden with a bicycle. What I'm wondering is this: if someone unfamiliar with the area got there and used a GPS unit to show those three roads, would the GPS unit show them the different gradients of the roads? Or is that another function that they'd need to download or otherwise install?

Cheers

For an instant reading, you can get a bubble inclineometer, properly calibrated measures the incline between the front and rear contact patches.

GPS Units = Show road steepness?
 

On 3/11/2019 1:23 PM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

I hate people on eBikes. But then again, I hate people on regular bikes. Traffic is traffic. With eBikes, though, you end up with otherwise unskilled riders who ride really fast in bike traffic. Fast dopes. Really fast unassisted riders are generally skilled -- not always, but generally. Imagine a pack of eBikers. It would make a Cat 5 race look safe.

Get ready for the eBike explosion in the U.S.. Costco is now selling an
eBike which one publication touted with "Is The Jetson Adventure E-Bike
Perfect?" for $1299.99. It is sufficient for most people's commuting
needs and it doesn't even really look like an eBike.

https://www.costco.com/Jetson-Adventure-Electric-Bike-.product.100370011.html

https://ridejetson.com/collections/bikes/products/adventure-electric-bike

Costco also periodically sells the GenZe eBike for around the same
price, with a larger motor and a throttle.

There's no real reason for eBikes to be costing $2000+, it's not that
much technology for a rear-hub motor wheel, a Li-Ion battery, and a
controller.

GPS Units = Show road steepness?
 

On Mon, 11 Mar 2019 20:02:23 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 3/11/2019 1:23 PM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

I hate people on eBikes. But then again, I hate people on regular bikes. Traffic is traffic. With eBikes, though, you end up with otherwise unskilled riders who ride really fast in bike traffic. Fast dopes. Really fast unassisted riders are generally skilled -- not always, but generally. Imagine a pack of eBikers. It would make a Cat 5 race look safe.

Get ready for the eBike explosion in the U.S.. Costco is now selling an
eBike which one publication touted with "Is The Jetson Adventure E-Bike
Perfect?" for $1299.99. It is sufficient for most people's commuting
needs and it doesn't even really look like an eBike.

https://www.costco.com/Jetson-Adventure-Electric-Bike-.product.100370011.html

https://ridejetson.com/collections/bikes/products/adventure-electric-bike

Costco also periodically sells the GenZe eBike for around the same
price, with a larger motor and a throttle.

There's no real reason for eBikes to be costing $2000+, it's not that
much technology for a rear-hub motor wheel, a Li-Ion battery, and a
controller.

I see a 250W, 36V,rear wheel conversion kit listed on e-bay for as low
as Thai Baht 6,637, about US$207.
It appears to include the complete rear wheel but didn't seem to
specify the size.

--
Cheers,
John B.

GPS Units = Show road steepness?
 

On 12/3/19 1:00 pm, Mike A Schwab wrote:

For an instant reading, you can get a bubble inclineometer, properly
calibrated measures the incline between the front and rear contact
patches.


That would work for most bicycling, but for trick cyclists like Robbie
McEwan, who has been seen riding on one wheel going up hill, the GPS is
still better.

--
JS

GPS Units = Show road steepness?
 

On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 10:00:31 PM UTC-4, Mike A Schwab wrote:
On Saturday, March 9, 2019 at 6:46:44 PM UTC-6, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
Talking about GPS units on another thread reminded me of something else I wondered if they do. Does a bicycle GPS unit show you the steepness of roads? There's an area that I frequently ride where on road has short but very steep hills, another road a mile or so east of it has much more gradual hills whilst a third road to the west of the first one is a major highway that can be ridden with a bicycle. What I'm wondering is this: if someone unfamiliar with the area got there and used a GPS unit to show those three roads, would the GPS unit show them the different gradients of the roads? Or is that another function that they'd need to download or otherwise install?

Cheers

For an instant reading, you can get a bubble inclineometer, properly calibrated measures the incline between the front and rear contact patches.

Doesn't do much good when you want to compare gradients of roads that run parallel or nearly parallel to each other in order to see which one would be easier to ride up.

Cheers

GPS Units = Show road steepness?
 

On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 11:02:28 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
On 3/11/2019 1:23 PM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

I hate people on eBikes. But then again, I hate people on regular bikes. Traffic is traffic. With eBikes, though, you end up with otherwise unskilled riders who ride really fast in bike traffic. Fast dopes. Really fast unassisted riders are generally skilled -- not always, but generally. Imagine a pack of eBikers. It would make a Cat 5 race look safe.

Get ready for the eBike explosion in the U.S.. Costco is now selling an
eBike which one publication touted with "Is The Jetson Adventure E-Bike
Perfect?" for $1299.99. It is sufficient for most people's commuting
needs and it doesn't even really look like an eBike.

https://www.costco.com/Jetson-Adventure-Electric-Bike-.product.100370011..html

https://ridejetson.com/collections/bikes/products/adventure-electric-bike

Costco also periodically sells the GenZe eBike for around the same
price, with a larger motor and a throttle.

There's no real reason for eBikes to be costing $2000+, it's not that
much technology for a rear-hub motor wheel, a Li-Ion battery, and a
controller.

Around here a 30 miles radius of ride is not that far. How long is the recharge time new and when the battery is old? I imaging that battery life drops a fair bit as it gets older? How long before the radius drops to 20 miles or less?

GPS Units = Show road steepness?
 

On Mon, 11 Mar 2019 22:14:02 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 11:02:28 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
On 3/11/2019 1:23 PM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

I hate people on eBikes. But then again, I hate people on regular bikes. Traffic is traffic. With eBikes, though, you end up with otherwise unskilled riders who ride really fast in bike traffic. Fast dopes. Really fast unassisted riders are generally skilled -- not always, but generally. Imagine a pack of eBikers. It would make a Cat 5 race look safe.

Get ready for the eBike explosion in the U.S.. Costco is now selling an
eBike which one publication touted with "Is The Jetson Adventure E-Bike
Perfect?" for $1299.99. It is sufficient for most people's commuting
needs and it doesn't even really look like an eBike.

https://www.costco.com/Jetson-Adventure-Electric-Bike-.product.100370011.html

https://ridejetson.com/collections/bikes/products/adventure-electric-bike

Costco also periodically sells the GenZe eBike for around the same
price, with a larger motor and a throttle.

There's no real reason for eBikes to be costing $2000+, it's not that
much technology for a rear-hub motor wheel, a Li-Ion battery, and a
controller.

Around here a 30 miles radius of ride is not that far. How long is the recharge time new and when the battery is old? I imaging that battery life drops a fair bit as it gets older? How long before the radius drops to 20 miles or less?

I wonder. Do people buy an e-bike for making long rides? Or do they
buy one to putter around the local village and do their shopping?

To be honest, I've never even seen an e-bike but I did look at some
electric powered three wheelers used to haul tourists around in
Singapore and talked with some of the Drivers?Owners? They use a
battery about the size of a large auto battery and I was told that
they would "go all day" although I'm not sure how long "all day"
actually is to a "Samlo" as I see them parked quite often. I don't
remember the costs but they were Chinese made hub matters and I do
remember at the time I though they were pretty cheap.

"Samlo" is a Thai word meaning three wheel and is used for the Thai
three wheelers. See https://tinyurl.com/y5rytxqp for both engine
powered and man powered versions.


--
Cheers,
John B.

GPS Units = Show road steepness?
 

Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 11:02:28 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
On 3/11/2019 1:23 PM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

I hate people on eBikes. But then again, I hate people on regular
bikes. Traffic is traffic. With eBikes, though, you end up with
otherwise unskilled riders who ride really fast in bike traffic. Fast
dopes. Really fast unassisted riders are generally skilled -- not
always, but generally. Imagine a pack of eBikers. It would make a Cat 5 race look safe.

Get ready for the eBike explosion in the U.S.. Costco is now selling an
eBike which one publication touted with "Is The Jetson Adventure E-Bike
Perfect?" for $1299.99. It is sufficient for most people's commuting
needs and it doesn't even really look like an eBike.

https://www.costco.com/Jetson-Adventure-Electric-Bike-.product.100370011.html

https://ridejetson.com/collections/bikes/products/adventure-electric-bike

Costco also periodically sells the GenZe eBike for around the same
price, with a larger motor and a throttle.

There's no real reason for eBikes to be costing $2000+, it's not that
much technology for a rear-hub motor wheel, a Li-Ion battery, and a
controller.

Around here a 30 miles radius of ride is not that far. How long is the
recharge time new and when the battery is old? I imaging that battery
life drops a fair bit as it gets older? How long before the radius drops
to 20 miles or less?


Are you talking about full electric bikes? I was talking about a variable
assist. In that case I think it depends on how much you use it. My
friend’s wife uses it on hills and maybe into wind but otherwise she
pedals.

--
duane

GPS Units = Show road steepness?
 

Am 10.03.2019 um 23:36 schrieb :

For every position on earth the altitude is known (measured during a
Space shuttle mission if I recall correctly). The information is
available for free.

The information is available but not in the necessary precision for road
gradients; uploading GPS tracks to Strava it is usually most meaningful
to replace the GPS altitude by 'true altitude' but look at the results:

https://www.strava.com/activities/1206896182

The first km, I am faster in the evening than in the morning so I assume
it's level or extremely slightly uphill, Strava thinks it's losing some
5m within 1 km.
Around km 1, there is a steep drop by 2m, followed by a climb of 2m
which is not visible at all in the track.

From km 6 to km 8 the track has a constant "climb" of 1m; Strava
interpolates a peak of 15m altitude into that which is not there in
reality.

Almost everything is correct to within a few m; the map-based
information produces a lot less spurious altitude gain and loss than the
GPS based information but this is not good enough for comparison of
gradients unless you're talking hills with 20m altitude gain or more.

I speculate my trip to work is 10m - 20m altitude gain in total on 11k
distance, the map brings it to 40m, GPS measurement typically around 60m.

Rolf

GPS Units = Show road steepness?
 

On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 9:13:08 PM UTC-4, Ralph Barone wrote:
Radey Shouman wrote:
Zen Cycle writes:

On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 6:35:02 PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:
Sir Ridesalot wrote:
Talking about GPS units on another thread reminded me of something else I
wondered if they do. Does a bicycle GPS unit show you the steepness of
roads? There's an area that I frequently ride where on road has short but
very steep hills, another road a mile or so east of it has much more
gradual hills whilst a third road to the west of the first one is a major
highway that can be ridden with a bicycle. What I'm wondering is this: if
someone unfamiliar with the area got there and used a GPS unit to show
those three roads, would the GPS unit show them the different gradients
of the roads? Or is that another function that they'd need to download or
otherwise install?

Cheers


Various mapping sites will show the gradient, and some GPS units will show
the gradient, in the same way that it can give improbable maximum speeds
they can also give improbable max gradients or sometimes on very short
ramps not notice it, there is a nasty little ramp nr my folks place, which
is the software flattens claiming 12% when it’s a fair cruel 25/30% even
more cruel this weekend with a 50mph headwind.

It's probably an averaging issue - taking enough samples before and
after the section so that it flattens the pitch.

It's the same basic issue as the speedometer kerfluffle. Numerical
differentiation amplifies noise.


I would think it was the opposite. Numerical integration suppresses spikes.

That's why I made the comment about the definition of 'noise'. I don't think differentiation is appropriate in this case, especially since we're doing simple math (not even algebra, let alone calculus).

GPS Units = Show road steepness?
 

Zen Cycle writes:

On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 3:28:58 PM UTC-4, Radey Shouman wrote:
Zen Cycle writes:

On Sunday, March 10, 2019 at 6:35:02 PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:
Sir Ridesalot wrote:
Talking about GPS units on another thread reminded me of something else I
wondered if they do. Does a bicycle GPS unit show you the steepness of
roads? There's an area that I frequently ride where on road has short but
very steep hills, another road a mile or so east of it has much more
gradual hills whilst a third road to the west of the first one is a major
highway that can be ridden with a bicycle. What I'm wondering is this: if
someone unfamiliar with the area got there and used a GPS unit to show
those three roads, would the GPS unit show them the different gradients
of the roads? Or is that another function that they'd need to download or
otherwise install?

Cheers


Various mapping sites will show the gradient, and some GPS units will show
the gradient, in the same way that it can give improbable maximum speeds
they can also give improbable max gradients or sometimes on very short
ramps not notice it, there is a nasty little ramp nr my folks place, which
is the software flattens claiming 12% when it’s a fair cruel 25/30% even
more cruel this weekend with a 50mph headwind.

It's probably an averaging issue - taking enough samples before and
after the section so that it flattens the pitch.

It's the same basic issue as the speedometer kerfluffle. Numerical
differentiation amplifies noise.

Interesting how you characterize it as 'noise'.

For the speedometer the main source of noise is quantization error,
resulting from reducing a continuous wheel position to an integer number
of revolutions. For the 2-d field of altitudes obtained from a map I
suspect that the quantization of position, ie, the limited number of
data points, perhaps at irregular places, is the main source of noise.

How to turn topographical survey data into something that looks like a
continuous function is a whole field of study -- there are many ways to
go wrong, and no one perfect way to do it right.

In either case, errors that would be fairly small in altitude or
distance become larger when differentiated to estimate speed or
gradient.


--