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Need advice on bottom bracket repair
Hi all, I have an early 1990s Rodriguez tandem with a rear bottom bracket in serious need of overhaul. The cranks flop severely. I've pulled the cranks and the lock ring on the left side, but the adjustable cup won't come out. It turns about a quarter turn, but then gets too stiff to turn further. It has no flats for a wrench instead having holes for turning with a pin spanner--so I'm unable to put a lot of force on it. I've soaked it with WD40, but still no joy. Any advice for me? -- Ted Heise Bloomington, IN, USA |
Need advice on bottom bracket repair
On Sun, 8 Jan 2017 02:33:29 +0000 (UTC), Theodore Heise
wrote: Hi all, I have an early 1990s Rodriguez tandem with a rear bottom bracket in serious need of overhaul. The cranks flop severely. I've pulled the cranks and the lock ring on the left side, but the adjustable cup won't come out. It turns about a quarter turn, but then gets too stiff to turn further. It has no flats for a wrench instead having holes for turning with a pin spanner--so I'm unable to put a lot of force on it. I've soaked it with WD40, but still no joy. Any advice for me? What I've had some success with in cases similar to yours, was, after soaking the threads with a penetrating oil, to twist the thing as far as you can, without trying too hard to break it, and than back tight, than loosen and back tight. Hopefully each time it will turn a little bit further. -- cheers, John B. |
Need advice on bottom bracket repair
On Saturday, January 7, 2017 at 9:33:31 PM UTC-5, Theodore Heise wrote:
Hi all, I have an early 1990s Rodriguez tandem with a rear bottom bracket in serious need of overhaul. The cranks flop severely. I've pulled the cranks and the lock ring on the left side, but the adjustable cup won't come out. It turns about a quarter turn, but then gets too stiff to turn further. It has no flats for a wrench instead having holes for turning with a pin spanner--so I'm unable to put a lot of force on it. I've soaked it with WD40, but still no joy. Any advice for me? -- Ted Heise Bloomington, IN, USA If your unit is a cup rather than a cartridge then tghis do it yourself tool from Sheldon Brown (RIP) works wonders. http://sheldonbrown.com/tooltips/bbcups.html It's towards the bottom of the page under "Fixed-Cup Tools". Cheers |
Need advice on bottom bracket repair
On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 10:38:15 AM UTC-5, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Saturday, January 7, 2017 at 9:33:31 PM UTC-5, Theodore Heise wrote: Hi all, I have an early 1990s Rodriguez tandem with a rear bottom bracket in serious need of overhaul. The cranks flop severely. I've pulled the cranks and the lock ring on the left side, but the adjustable cup won't come out. It turns about a quarter turn, but then gets too stiff to turn further. It has no flats for a wrench instead having holes for turning with a pin spanner--so I'm unable to put a lot of force on it. I've soaked it with WD40, but still no joy. Any advice for me? -- Ted Heise Bloomington, IN, USA If your unit is a cup rather than a cartridge then tghis do it yourself tool from Sheldon Brown (RIP) works wonders. http://sheldonbrown.com/tooltips/bbcups.html It's towards the bottom of the page under "Fixed-Cup Tools". Cheers https://www.google.com/#q=removing%2...%3Ayoutube.com |
Need advice on bottom bracket repair
On Saturday, January 7, 2017 at 6:33:31 PM UTC-8, Theodore Heise wrote:
Hi all, I have an early 1990s Rodriguez tandem with a rear bottom bracket in serious need of overhaul. The cranks flop severely. I've pulled the cranks and the lock ring on the left side, but the adjustable cup won't come out. It turns about a quarter turn, but then gets too stiff to turn further. It has no flats for a wrench instead having holes for turning with a pin spanner--so I'm unable to put a lot of force on it. I've soaked it with WD40, but still no joy. Any advice for me? Ted, it all depends on what confidence you have in your mechanical ability and if you're dumb enough, strike that, willing to buy a tool that you're probably never going to use again. http://tinyurl.com/hcds8af This is NOT a magic bullet and as john has recommended you have have to work it back and forth until you finally free it. The modern sealed bottom brackets with the spline is a whole not easier to install and remove. |
Need advice on bottom bracket repair
On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 19:12:56 +0700,
John B wrote: On Sun, 8 Jan 2017 02:33:29 +0000 (UTC), Theodore Heise wrote: Hi all, I have an early 1990s Rodriguez tandem with a rear bottom bracket in serious need of overhaul. The cranks flop severely. I've pulled the cranks and the lock ring on the left side, but the adjustable cup won't come out. It turns about a quarter turn, but then gets too stiff to turn further. It has no flats for a wrench instead having holes for turning with a pin spanner--so I'm unable to put a lot of force on it. I've soaked it with WD40, but still no joy. Any advice for me? What I've had some success with in cases similar to yours, was, after soaking the threads with a penetrating oil, to twist the thing as far as you can, without trying too hard to break it, and than back tight, than loosen and back tight. Hopefully each time it will turn a little bit further. Thanks! Guess I'll pick up some penetrating oil and keep after it. -- Ted Heise Bloomington, IN, USA |
Need advice on bottom bracket repair
On Sun, 8 Jan 2017 07:42:55 -0800 (PST),
DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote: On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 10:38:15 AM UTC-5, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Saturday, January 7, 2017 at 9:33:31 PM UTC-5, Theodore Heise wrote: Hi all, I have an early 1990s Rodriguez tandem with a rear bottom bracket in serious need of overhaul. The cranks flop severely. I've pulled the cranks and the lock ring on the left side, but the adjustable cup won't come out. It turns about a quarter turn, but then gets too stiff to turn further. It has no flats for a wrench instead having holes for turning with a pin spanner--so I'm unable to put a lot of force on it. I've soaked it with WD40, but still no joy. Any advice for me? If your unit is a cup rather than a cartridge then tghis do it yourself tool from Sheldon Brown (RIP) works wonders. http://sheldonbrown.com/tooltips/bbcups.html It's towards the bottom of the page under "Fixed-Cup Tools". https://www.google.com/#q=removing%2...%3Ayoutube.com Thanks guys, but I need to get the adjustable cup off before I could use Sheldon's tool on the fixed cup. -- Ted Heise Bloomington, IN, USA |
Need advice on bottom bracket repair
On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 8:48:56 AM UTC-8, Theodore Heise wrote:
On Sun, 8 Jan 2017 07:42:55 -0800 (PST), DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote: On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 10:38:15 AM UTC-5, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Saturday, January 7, 2017 at 9:33:31 PM UTC-5, Theodore Heise wrote: Hi all, I have an early 1990s Rodriguez tandem with a rear bottom bracket in serious need of overhaul. The cranks flop severely. I've pulled the cranks and the lock ring on the left side, but the adjustable cup won't come out. It turns about a quarter turn, but then gets too stiff to turn further. It has no flats for a wrench instead having holes for turning with a pin spanner--so I'm unable to put a lot of force on it. I've soaked it with WD40, but still no joy. Any advice for me? If your unit is a cup rather than a cartridge then tghis do it yourself tool from Sheldon Brown (RIP) works wonders. http://sheldonbrown.com/tooltips/bbcups.html It's towards the bottom of the page under "Fixed-Cup Tools". https://www.google.com/#q=removing%2...%3Ayoutube.com Thanks guys, but I need to get the adjustable cup off before I could use Sheldon's tool on the fixed cup. -- Ted Heise Bloomington, IN, USA Ted, I don't quite follow. You are talking about using a pin spanner and then say that you need to get the adjustable cup off first. Isn't that what we were talking about? The lock nut on the adjustable side and the fixed cup do not use pin spanners as far as I know. |
Need advice on bottom bracket repair
On 1/7/2017 8:33 PM, Theodore Heise wrote:
Hi all, I have an early 1990s Rodriguez tandem with a rear bottom bracket in serious need of overhaul. The cranks flop severely. I've pulled the cranks and the lock ring on the left side, but the adjustable cup won't come out. It turns about a quarter turn, but then gets too stiff to turn further. It has no flats for a wrench instead having holes for turning with a pin spanner--so I'm unable to put a lot of force on it. I've soaked it with WD40, but still no joy. Any advice for me? Delco 10.4020 penetrant is the best, PC Blaster is good. Warming with a heat gun can help. If no other path, flats can be cut on the cup with a disc grinder to allow a wrench instead of those brittle expensive pins. p.s. Try the right side cup too. If that moves, you can easily deal with the left one after disasssembly. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
Need advice on bottom bracket repair
On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 11:54:40 AM UTC-5, Theodore Heise wrote:
On Sun, 8 Jan 2017 08:05:28 -0800 (PST), wrote: On Saturday, January 7, 2017 at 6:33:31 PM UTC-8, Theodore Heise wrote: Hi all, I have an early 1990s Rodriguez tandem with a rear bottom bracket in serious need of overhaul. The cranks flop severely. I've pulled the cranks and the lock ring on the left side, but the adjustable cup won't come out. It turns about a quarter turn, but then gets too stiff to turn further. It has no flats for a wrench instead having holes for turning with a pin spanner--so I'm unable to put a lot of force on it. I've soaked it with WD40, but still no joy. Any advice for me? Ted, it all depends on what confidence you have in your mechanical ability and if you're dumb enough, strike that, willing to buy a tool that you're probably never going to use again. http://tinyurl.com/hcds8af This is NOT a magic bullet and as john has recommended you have have to work it back and forth until you finally free it. Turns out I already had this type of tool--didn't remember it, because it's been a *long* time since I used it last. I was able to get it turned a bit farther with this rigid piin spanner, but unfortunately, I broke one of the pins in trying. Too bad I didn't see your caution first. I will see if my LBS has the replacemennt pins. As an aside, the Park SPA-1 (that Sheldon also recommends) came first to my mind, because I use it periodically to adjust the eccentrics on both of my tandems. The modern sealed bottom brackets with the spline is a whole not easier to install and remove. I intend to replace the whole mess with a sealed cartridge BB, if I can only get the old hardware out. Thanks for the good advice! -- Ted Heise Bloomington, IN, USA I can get the old hardware out! propane torch or heat gun ....when 'it' jambs, 'it' either loosens with back n forth gentle screw unscrewing in the correct direction...your install may have reverse threads ? or failing a gentle action with copious PC Blaster which isnot penetrating oil ...uneeda torch. the caws of this is threads have a designed space..allowing loosening turning in n out ...between female n male threads. when grolf n fargge acculumlate in there there's no more room for screwing in an out .....more pressure jambs more grolf ahead of the unthreading. if rust what you have is a space designed for lubricant or locktite not rust. |
Need advice on bottom bracket repair
On Sun, 8 Jan 2017 08:56:40 -0800 (PST),
wrote: On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 8:48:56 AM UTC-8, Theodore Heise wrote: On Sun, 8 Jan 2017 07:42:55 -0800 (PST), DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote: On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 10:38:15 AM UTC-5, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Saturday, January 7, 2017 at 9:33:31 PM UTC-5, Theodore Heise wrote: Hi all, I have an early 1990s Rodriguez tandem with a rear bottom bracket in serious need of overhaul. The cranks flop severely. I've pulled the cranks and the lock ring on the left side, but the adjustable cup won't come out. It turns about a quarter turn, but then gets too stiff to turn further. It has no flats for a wrench instead having holes for turning with a pin spanner--so I'm unable to put a lot of force on it. I've soaked it with WD40, but still no joy. Any advice for me? If your unit is a cup rather than a cartridge then tghis do it yourself tool from Sheldon Brown (RIP) works wonders. http://sheldonbrown.com/tooltips/bbcups.html It's towards the bottom of the page under "Fixed-Cup Tools". https://www.google.com/#q=removing%2...%3Ayoutube.com Thanks guys, but I need to get the adjustable cup off before I could use Sheldon's tool on the fixed cup. Ted, I don't quite follow. You are talking about using a pin spanner and then say that you need to get the adjustable cup off first. Isn't that what we were talking about? The lock nut on the adjustable side and the fixed cup do not use pin spanners as far as I know. Sorry. I have the lock ring off on the left, non-drive side, and am left with an adjustable cup that will only turn partway. The fixed cup is still in place too (on the other side), so the spindle is in place and blocks putting in the bolt and nut that Sheldon describes. For what it's worth, the fixed cup also seems to be pretty stuck. It's an aluminum frame, so presumably the shell is aluminum too and there may be some corrosion in the interface between the two different metals of the shell and the cups? -- Ted Heise Bloomington, IN, USA |
Need advice on bottom bracket repair
"Theodore Heise" wrote in message ... On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 11:08:20 -0600, AMuzi wrote: On 1/7/2017 8:33 PM, Theodore Heise wrote: Hi all, I have an early 1990s Rodriguez tandem with a rear bottom bracket in serious need of overhaul. The cranks flop severely. I've pulled the cranks and the lock ring on the left side, but the adjustable cup won't come out. It turns about a quarter turn, but then gets too stiff to turn further. It has no flats for a wrench instead having holes for turning with a pin spanner--so I'm unable to put a lot of force on it. I've soaked it with WD40, but still no joy. Any advice for me? Delco 10.4020 penetrant is the best, PC Blaster is good. Warming with a heat gun can help. If no other path, flats can be cut on the cup with a disc grinder to allow a wrench instead of those brittle expensive pins. p.s. Try the right side cup too. If that moves, you can easily deal with the left one after disasssembly. Thanks for the added tips. Off to get penetrating oil and new pins now. Grinding on it is beyond my abilities, so if I'm not able to get things off with the addition of penetrating oil and time, I'll be hauling it off to my LBS. At that stage; I'd turn it as far as the tight spot and give it a few strikes with a hammer. sometimes you can ease it out bit at a time that way. Once I had to shift a seized in pedal shaft, after snapping a couple of spanners - I welded on the biggest nut I had a spanner for. Quenching the hot steel with penetrating oil did slightly more than just spraying it on cold. The same approach would probably work with a BB cup. |
Need advice on bottom bracket repair
On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 1:14:21 PM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot wrote:
"Theodore Heise" wrote in message ... On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 11:08:20 -0600, AMuzi wrote: On 1/7/2017 8:33 PM, Theodore Heise wrote: Hi all, I have an early 1990s Rodriguez tandem with a rear bottom bracket in serious need of overhaul. The cranks flop severely. I've pulled the cranks and the lock ring on the left side, but the adjustable cup won't come out. It turns about a quarter turn, but then gets too stiff to turn further. It has no flats for a wrench instead having holes for turning with a pin spanner--so I'm unable to put a lot of force on it. I've soaked it with WD40, but still no joy. Any advice for me? Delco 10.4020 penetrant is the best, PC Blaster is good. Warming with a heat gun can help. If no other path, flats can be cut on the cup with a disc grinder to allow a wrench instead of those brittle expensive pins. p.s. Try the right side cup too. If that moves, you can easily deal with the left one after disasssembly. Thanks for the added tips. Off to get penetrating oil and new pins now. Grinding on it is beyond my abilities, so if I'm not able to get things off with the addition of penetrating oil and time, I'll be hauling it off to my LBS. At that stage; I'd turn it as far as the tight spot and give it a few strikes with a hammer. sometimes you can ease it out bit at a time that way. Once I had to shift a seized in pedal shaft, after snapping a couple of spanners - I welded on the biggest nut I had a spanner for. Quenching the hot steel with penetrating oil did slightly more than just spraying it on cold. The same approach would probably work with a BB cup. It is extremely bad practice to hammer a pin spanner. Firstly it will break the pins off on several types of pin spanners and in any case it will round off the holes so that you can't get one to work in any case. From the pen of Mr. Experience. |
Need advice on bottom bracket repair
wrote in message ... On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 1:14:21 PM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot wrote: "Theodore Heise" wrote in message ... On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 11:08:20 -0600, AMuzi wrote: On 1/7/2017 8:33 PM, Theodore Heise wrote: Hi all, I have an early 1990s Rodriguez tandem with a rear bottom bracket in serious need of overhaul. The cranks flop severely. I've pulled the cranks and the lock ring on the left side, but the adjustable cup won't come out. It turns about a quarter turn, but then gets too stiff to turn further. It has no flats for a wrench instead having holes for turning with a pin spanner--so I'm unable to put a lot of force on it. I've soaked it with WD40, but still no joy. Any advice for me? Delco 10.4020 penetrant is the best, PC Blaster is good. Warming with a heat gun can help. If no other path, flats can be cut on the cup with a disc grinder to allow a wrench instead of those brittle expensive pins. p.s. Try the right side cup too. If that moves, you can easily deal with the left one after disasssembly. Thanks for the added tips. Off to get penetrating oil and new pins now. Grinding on it is beyond my abilities, so if I'm not able to get things off with the addition of penetrating oil and time, I'll be hauling it off to my LBS. At that stage; I'd turn it as far as the tight spot and give it a few strikes with a hammer. sometimes you can ease it out bit at a time that way. Once I had to shift a seized in pedal shaft, after snapping a couple of spanners - I welded on the biggest nut I had a spanner for. Quenching the hot steel with penetrating oil did slightly more than just spraying it on cold. The same approach would probably work with a BB cup. It is extremely bad practice to hammer a pin spanner. Who said anything about hammering a pin spanner?!!! If you can't be bothered reading a post - don't bother answering it either. |
Need advice on bottom bracket repair
On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 2:02:27 PM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot wrote:
wrote in message ... On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 1:14:21 PM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot wrote: "Theodore Heise" wrote in message ... On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 11:08:20 -0600, AMuzi wrote: On 1/7/2017 8:33 PM, Theodore Heise wrote: Hi all, I have an early 1990s Rodriguez tandem with a rear bottom bracket in serious need of overhaul. The cranks flop severely. I've pulled the cranks and the lock ring on the left side, but the adjustable cup won't come out. It turns about a quarter turn, but then gets too stiff to turn further. It has no flats for a wrench instead having holes for turning with a pin spanner--so I'm unable to put a lot of force on it. I've soaked it with WD40, but still no joy. Any advice for me? Delco 10.4020 penetrant is the best, PC Blaster is good. Warming with a heat gun can help. If no other path, flats can be cut on the cup with a disc grinder to allow a wrench instead of those brittle expensive pins. p.s. Try the right side cup too. If that moves, you can easily deal with the left one after disasssembly. Thanks for the added tips. Off to get penetrating oil and new pins now. Grinding on it is beyond my abilities, so if I'm not able to get things off with the addition of penetrating oil and time, I'll be hauling it off to my LBS. At that stage; I'd turn it as far as the tight spot and give it a few strikes with a hammer. sometimes you can ease it out bit at a time that way. Once I had to shift a seized in pedal shaft, after snapping a couple of spanners - I welded on the biggest nut I had a spanner for. Quenching the hot steel with penetrating oil did slightly more than just spraying it on cold. The same approach would probably work with a BB cup. It is extremely bad practice to hammer a pin spanner. Who said anything about hammering a pin spanner?!!! If you can't be bothered reading a post - don't bother answering it either. |
Need advice on bottom bracket repair
wrote in message ... On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 2:02:27 PM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot wrote: wrote in message ... On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 1:14:21 PM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot wrote: "Theodore Heise" wrote in message ... On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 11:08:20 -0600, AMuzi wrote: On 1/7/2017 8:33 PM, Theodore Heise wrote: Hi all, I have an early 1990s Rodriguez tandem with a rear bottom bracket in serious need of overhaul. The cranks flop severely. I've pulled the cranks and the lock ring on the left side, but the adjustable cup won't come out. It turns about a quarter turn, but then gets too stiff to turn further. It has no flats for a wrench instead having holes for turning with a pin spanner--so I'm unable to put a lot of force on it. I've soaked it with WD40, but still no joy. Any advice for me? Delco 10.4020 penetrant is the best, PC Blaster is good. Warming with a heat gun can help. If no other path, flats can be cut on the cup with a disc grinder to allow a wrench instead of those brittle expensive pins. p.s. Try the right side cup too. If that moves, you can easily deal with the left one after disasssembly. Thanks for the added tips. Off to get penetrating oil and new pins now. Grinding on it is beyond my abilities, so if I'm not able to get things off with the addition of penetrating oil and time, I'll be hauling it off to my LBS. At that stage; I'd turn it as far as the tight spot and give it a few strikes with a hammer. sometimes you can ease it out bit at a time that way. Once I had to shift a seized in pedal shaft, after snapping a couple of spanners - I welded on the biggest nut I had a spanner for. Quenching the hot steel with penetrating oil did slightly more than just spraying it on cold. The same approach would probably work with a BB cup. It is extremely bad practice to hammer a pin spanner. Who said anything about hammering a pin spanner?!!! If you can't be bothered reading a post - don't bother answering it either. I might suggest "At that stage; I'd turn it as far as the tight spot and give it a few strikes with a hammer. sometimes you can ease it out bit at a time that way." sounds an awful lot like hammering on a pin spanner. Are you supposing we're discussing removing pedals from a crank? Sorry - I forgot you were that thick. I'll draw pictures next time. |
Need advice on bottom bracket repair
On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 2:11:45 PM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot wrote:
wrote in message ... On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 2:02:27 PM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot wrote: wrote in message ... On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 1:14:21 PM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot wrote: "Theodore Heise" wrote in message ... On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 11:08:20 -0600, AMuzi wrote: On 1/7/2017 8:33 PM, Theodore Heise wrote: Hi all, I have an early 1990s Rodriguez tandem with a rear bottom bracket in serious need of overhaul. The cranks flop severely. I've pulled the cranks and the lock ring on the left side, but the adjustable cup won't come out. It turns about a quarter turn, but then gets too stiff to turn further. It has no flats for a wrench instead having holes for turning with a pin spanner--so I'm unable to put a lot of force on it. I've soaked it with WD40, but still no joy. Any advice for me? Delco 10.4020 penetrant is the best, PC Blaster is good. Warming with a heat gun can help. If no other path, flats can be cut on the cup with a disc grinder to allow a wrench instead of those brittle expensive pins. p.s. Try the right side cup too. If that moves, you can easily deal with the left one after disasssembly. Thanks for the added tips. Off to get penetrating oil and new pins now. Grinding on it is beyond my abilities, so if I'm not able to get things off with the addition of penetrating oil and time, I'll be hauling it off to my LBS. At that stage; I'd turn it as far as the tight spot and give it a few strikes with a hammer. sometimes you can ease it out bit at a time that way. Once I had to shift a seized in pedal shaft, after snapping a couple of spanners - I welded on the biggest nut I had a spanner for. Quenching the hot steel with penetrating oil did slightly more than just spraying it on cold. The same approach would probably work with a BB cup. It is extremely bad practice to hammer a pin spanner. Who said anything about hammering a pin spanner?!!! If you can't be bothered reading a post - don't bother answering it either. I might suggest "At that stage; I'd turn it as far as the tight spot and give it a few strikes with a hammer. sometimes you can ease it out bit at a time that way." sounds an awful lot like hammering on a pin spanner. Are you supposing we're discussing removing pedals from a crank? Sorry - I forgot you were that thick. I'll draw pictures next time. So you meant something other than what you wrote. Well that makes sense. |
Need advice on bottom bracket repair
On 1/8/2017 12:08 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/7/2017 8:33 PM, Theodore Heise wrote: Hi all, I have an early 1990s Rodriguez tandem with a rear bottom bracket in serious need of overhaul. The cranks flop severely. I've pulled the cranks and the lock ring on the left side, but the adjustable cup won't come out. It turns about a quarter turn, but then gets too stiff to turn further. It has no flats for a wrench instead having holes for turning with a pin spanner--so I'm unable to put a lot of force on it. I've soaked it with WD40, but still no joy. Any advice for me? Delco 10.4020 penetrant is the best, PC Blaster is good. Warming with a heat gun can help. If no other path, flats can be cut on the cup with a disc grinder to allow a wrench instead of those brittle expensive pins. p.s. Try the right side cup too. If that moves, you can easily deal with the left one after disasssembly. I too have had much better luck with PB Blaster or old-style Liquid Wrench than with WD-40. -- - Frank Krygowski |
Need advice on bottom bracket repair
On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 12:59:14 PM UTC-5, Theodore Heise wrote:
On Sun, 8 Jan 2017 08:56:40 -0800 (PST), wrote: On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 8:48:56 AM UTC-8, Theodore Heise wrote: On Sun, 8 Jan 2017 07:42:55 -0800 (PST), DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote: On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 10:38:15 AM UTC-5, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Saturday, January 7, 2017 at 9:33:31 PM UTC-5, Theodore Heise wrote: Hi all, I have an early 1990s Rodriguez tandem with a rear bottom bracket in serious need of overhaul. The cranks flop severely. I've pulled the cranks and the lock ring on the left side, but the adjustable cup won't come out. It turns about a quarter turn, but then gets too stiff to turn further. It has no flats for a wrench instead having holes for turning with a pin spanner--so I'm unable to put a lot of force on it. I've soaked it with WD40, but still no joy. Any advice for me? If your unit is a cup rather than a cartridge then tghis do it yourself tool from Sheldon Brown (RIP) works wonders. http://sheldonbrown.com/tooltips/bbcups.html It's towards the bottom of the page under "Fixed-Cup Tools". https://www.google.com/#q=removing%2...%3Ayoutube.com Thanks guys, but I need to get the adjustable cup off before I could use Sheldon's tool on the fixed cup. Ted, I don't quite follow. You are talking about using a pin spanner and then say that you need to get the adjustable cup off first. Isn't that what we were talking about? The lock nut on the adjustable side and the fixed cup do not use pin spanners as far as I know. Sorry. I have the lock ring off on the left, non-drive side, and am left with an adjustable cup that will only turn partway. The fixed cup is still in place too (on the other side), so the spindle is in place and blocks putting in the bolt and nut that Sheldon describes. For what it's worth, the fixed cup also seems to be pretty stuck. It's an aluminum frame, so presumably the shell is aluminum too and there may be some corrosion in the interface between the two different metals of the shell and the cups? -- Ted Heise Bloomington, IN, USA if you search on aluminum/steel frame/shells/cups install or remove there should be an avalanche of umbrage. if your system shows white material in joints then poss an ionic binding occurred between steel and aluminum. Andy Muzi is an expert on this. Blaster does not dissolve the white material. Uneeda torch and another pin tool. expanding aluminum with torch or heat gun will remove the cup. |
Need advice on bottom bracket repair
On Sun, 8 Jan 2017 17:27:33 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote: I too have had much better luck with PB Blaster or old-style Liquid Wrench than with WD-40. Same here. WD-40 may have 2,000 uses but it's only good at what it was originally designed to do; displace water. https://wd40.com/img/WD-40_2000_uses.pdf I hate suggesting ideas that I haven't tried, but if you're willing to take the risk (and not sue me), this might actually work. Better living through chemistry. In this case, we have a steel cup and an aluminum frame and bottom bracket. My guess(tm) is the threads are clogged with iron oxide (rust) and aluminum oxide (white crud). The trick is to find a chemical that will attack both without trashing the base metals. One thing *NOT* to use is CLR or various household calcium/lime/rust removers. The acid will attack the two oxides, but will also destroy the base aluminum threads. It may come apart, but you probably won't have any threads left in the aluminum. So, what to do. Oxalic acid and water mix will attack both the rust and the white crud. It's a rather large molecule, so it may take some soaking of the bottom bracket in the oxalic acid solution to get some penetration. If you feel ambitious, heat up the bottom bracket slightly, slop on the oxalic acid, and get out of the way. Tiny air spaces in the threads will produce a partial vacuum as it cools, and suck in the liquid. It won't suck much but it might be enough to soften whatever is jamming the threads, especially if you can move the steel cup with the now broken bottom bracket wrench. Oxalic acid will bleach anything it touches, especially your clothes, so please wear gloves and protective clothing. When you put it back together, I suggest a little Never Seize: http://www.neverseezproducts.com/neverseez.htm http://www.neverseezproducts.com/antiseize.htm to prevent a repetition of this exercise. However, if you do use some kind of anti-seize or grease, be careful not to over tighten the cups. Good luck. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
Need advice on bottom bracket repair
On Sun, 8 Jan 2017 17:27:33 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote: On 1/8/2017 12:08 PM, AMuzi wrote: On 1/7/2017 8:33 PM, Theodore Heise wrote: Hi all, I have an early 1990s Rodriguez tandem with a rear bottom bracket in serious need of overhaul. The cranks flop severely. I've pulled the cranks and the lock ring on the left side, but the adjustable cup won't come out. It turns about a quarter turn, but then gets too stiff to turn further. It has no flats for a wrench instead having holes for turning with a pin spanner--so I'm unable to put a lot of force on it. I've soaked it with WD40, but still no joy. Any advice for me? Delco 10.4020 penetrant is the best, PC Blaster is good. Warming with a heat gun can help. If no other path, flats can be cut on the cup with a disc grinder to allow a wrench instead of those brittle expensive pins. p.s. Try the right side cup too. If that moves, you can easily deal with the left one after disasssembly. I too have had much better luck with PB Blaster or old-style Liquid Wrench than with WD-40. There is a recipe for "home made penetrating fluid" I found on the web - equal measures of kerosene, ATF, mineral spirits, and acetone - that worked really well the time or two I tried it. The problem with it is I cold never find a bottle to store it in that the acetone didn't evaporate :-( I'm not sure what the kerosene and mineral spirits actually add to the concoction as neither have much lubricity and are both of a higher viscosity than acetone so I suspect that the 50% ATF and 50% acetone mix that I've also seen recommended probably works as well. -- cheers, John B. |
Need advice on bottom bracket repair
On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 08:34:44 +0700, John B.
wrote: There is a recipe for "home made penetrating fluid" I found on the web - equal measures of kerosene, ATF, mineral spirits, and acetone - that worked really well the time or two I tried it. The problem with it is I cold never find a bottle to store it in that the acetone didn't evaporate :-( I'm surprised that this concoction works. There are quite a few claims that ATF+acetone works best, but I don't see how. None of the comments I read talked about using it with aluminum, or an aluminum and steel combination. If the idea is to attack the oxides, which requires an acid, none of the mentioned ingredients will do anything useful, except lubricating the parts of the threads that are already broken loose. I'm not sure what the kerosene and mineral spirits actually add to the concoction as neither have much lubricity and are both of a higher viscosity than acetone so I suspect that the 50% ATF and 50% acetone mix that I've also seen recommended probably works as well. Seems like a popular concoction: http://www.instructables.com/id/Home-made-penetrating-oil/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CESDxCloCoQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5X0EMlIVx4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0kIPEzeTQ8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WuVBFTzoKc The last video claims that acetone breaks down rust (at 1:32), which it doesn't. What the ATF brings to the table is a detergent, a rust inhibitor, anti-foaming agent, an anti-oxidant, and some kind of lubricant, none of which seem useful for breaking loose rust or aluminum oxide. I wanted to read the original Machinists Workshop Magazine article, but couldn't find any back issues or copies online. This was the earliest reference I could find: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=20131.0 -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
Need advice on bottom bracket repair
On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 20:41:16 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote: On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 08:34:44 +0700, John B. wrote: There is a recipe for "home made penetrating fluid" I found on the web - equal measures of kerosene, ATF, mineral spirits, and acetone - that worked really well the time or two I tried it. The problem with it is I cold never find a bottle to store it in that the acetone didn't evaporate :-( I'm surprised that this concoction works. There are quite a few claims that ATF+acetone works best, but I don't see how. None of the comments I read talked about using it with aluminum, or an aluminum and steel combination. If the idea is to attack the oxides, which requires an acid, none of the mentioned ingredients will do anything useful, except lubricating the parts of the threads that are already broken loose. I'm not sure what the kerosene and mineral spirits actually add to the concoction as neither have much lubricity and are both of a higher viscosity than acetone so I suspect that the 50% ATF and 50% acetone mix that I've also seen recommended probably works as well. Seems like a popular concoction: http://www.instructables.com/id/Home-made-penetrating-oil/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CESDxCloCoQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5X0EMlIVx4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0kIPEzeTQ8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WuVBFTzoKc The last video claims that acetone breaks down rust (at 1:32), which it doesn't. What the ATF brings to the table is a detergent, a rust inhibitor, anti-foaming agent, an anti-oxidant, and some kind of lubricant, none of which seem useful for breaking loose rust or aluminum oxide. Forget the detergent, the anti-foaming, the anti-oxidant and concentrate on the lubricant. If you mix acetone with ATF you get a lubricant that initially has a viscosity of approximately 1/2 - 1/3 that of water (water centipose = 0.89,. acetone = 0.31) so it flows into some pretty small cracks. Then the acetone evaporates leaving at least some oil in the joint. And the crux of the argument - it works. As for aluminum and steel joints. Yes iron and aluminum in the presence of an electrolyte results in some pretty spectacular corrosion but even a little insulation prevents that. Grease in the threads for example. A favored insulation for sail boats where one has a considerable amount of stainless in contact with aluminum spars is lanolin for some reason. I wanted to read the original Machinists Workshop Magazine article, but couldn't find any back issues or copies online. This was the earliest reference I could find: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=20131.0 Try http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb...ng-oil-196347/ which describes the torque loads using different penetrating oils. From the Machinist Workshop Magazine, April 2007, issue. Or the magazine at http://www.machinistsworkshop.net/ But they don't seem to allow searching back issues. -- cheers, John B. |
Need advice on bottom bracket repair
On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 12:48:48 +0700, John B.
wrote: On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 20:41:16 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 08:34:44 +0700, John B. wrote: There is a recipe for "home made penetrating fluid" I found on the web - equal measures of kerosene, ATF, mineral spirits, and acetone - that worked really well the time or two I tried it. The problem with it is I cold never find a bottle to store it in that the acetone didn't evaporate :-( I'm surprised that this concoction works. There are quite a few claims that ATF+acetone works best, but I don't see how. None of the comments I read talked about using it with aluminum, or an aluminum and steel combination. If the idea is to attack the oxides, which requires an acid, none of the mentioned ingredients will do anything useful, except lubricating the parts of the threads that are already broken loose. I'm not sure what the kerosene and mineral spirits actually add to the concoction as neither have much lubricity and are both of a higher viscosity than acetone so I suspect that the 50% ATF and 50% acetone mix that I've also seen recommended probably works as well. Seems like a popular concoction: http://www.instructables.com/id/Home-made-penetrating-oil/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CESDxCloCoQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5X0EMlIVx4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0kIPEzeTQ8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WuVBFTzoKc The last video claims that acetone breaks down rust (at 1:32), which it doesn't. What the ATF brings to the table is a detergent, a rust inhibitor, anti-foaming agent, an anti-oxidant, and some kind of lubricant, none of which seem useful for breaking loose rust or aluminum oxide. Forget the detergent, the anti-foaming, the anti-oxidant and concentrate on the lubricant. If you mix acetone with ATF you get a lubricant that initially has a viscosity of approximately 1/2 - 1/3 that of water (water centipose = 0.89,. acetone = 0.31) so it flows into some pretty small cracks. Then the acetone evaporates leaving at least some oil in the joint. Good point. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viscosity#Viscosity_of_selected_substances The only other solvent on the list that might work is methanol at 0.54. Looks like acetone might be the best choice as a thinner. Low viscosity silicon oil (0.65): http://www.clearcoproducts.com/pure-silicone-super-low-viscosity.html http://www.clearcoproducts.com/pdf/volatile/NP-PSF-0_65cSt.pdf Might work instead of the ATF+acetone mix, but also might be expensive. And the crux of the argument - it works. I want to know why it works at least twice as good as the others on the list. As for aluminum and steel joints. Yes iron and aluminum in the presence of an electrolyte results in some pretty spectacular corrosion but even a little insulation prevents that. Grease in the threads for example. On the bottom bracket in question, corrosion has already set in and it's too late for preventive measures. A favored insulation for sail boats where one has a considerable amount of stainless in contact with aluminum spars is lanolin for some reason. PTFE tape is my favorite. Close to lanolin is white lithium grease, which is essentially a soap. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_soap I wanted to read the original Machinists Workshop Magazine article, but couldn't find any back issues or copies online. This was the earliest reference I could find: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=20131.0 Try http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb...ng-oil-196347/ which describes the torque loads using different penetrating oils. From the Machinist Workshop Magazine, April 2007, issue. Thanks, but that is roughly the same as what I found in numerous other references to the article. I was looking for a copy of the original article. Or the magazine at http://www.machinistsworkshop.net/ But they don't seem to allow searching back issues. Yep, that's the problem. Usually, when there's something mentioned that often, someone scans the original article and posts it. Not this time. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
Need advice on bottom bracket repair
On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 00:12:49 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote: On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 12:48:48 +0700, John B. wrote: On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 20:41:16 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 08:34:44 +0700, John B. wrote: There is a recipe for "home made penetrating fluid" I found on the web - equal measures of kerosene, ATF, mineral spirits, and acetone - that worked really well the time or two I tried it. The problem with it is I cold never find a bottle to store it in that the acetone didn't evaporate :-( I'm surprised that this concoction works. There are quite a few claims that ATF+acetone works best, but I don't see how. None of the comments I read talked about using it with aluminum, or an aluminum and steel combination. If the idea is to attack the oxides, which requires an acid, none of the mentioned ingredients will do anything useful, except lubricating the parts of the threads that are already broken loose. I'm not sure what the kerosene and mineral spirits actually add to the concoction as neither have much lubricity and are both of a higher viscosity than acetone so I suspect that the 50% ATF and 50% acetone mix that I've also seen recommended probably works as well. Seems like a popular concoction: http://www.instructables.com/id/Home-made-penetrating-oil/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CESDxCloCoQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5X0EMlIVx4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0kIPEzeTQ8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WuVBFTzoKc The last video claims that acetone breaks down rust (at 1:32), which it doesn't. What the ATF brings to the table is a detergent, a rust inhibitor, anti-foaming agent, an anti-oxidant, and some kind of lubricant, none of which seem useful for breaking loose rust or aluminum oxide. Forget the detergent, the anti-foaming, the anti-oxidant and concentrate on the lubricant. If you mix acetone with ATF you get a lubricant that initially has a viscosity of approximately 1/2 - 1/3 that of water (water centipose = 0.89,. acetone = 0.31) so it flows into some pretty small cracks. Then the acetone evaporates leaving at least some oil in the joint. Good point. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viscosity#Viscosity_of_selected_substances The only other solvent on the list that might work is methanol at 0.54. Looks like acetone might be the best choice as a thinner. Low viscosity silicon oil (0.65): http://www.clearcoproducts.com/pure-silicone-super-low-viscosity.html http://www.clearcoproducts.com/pdf/volatile/NP-PSF-0_65cSt.pdf Might work instead of the ATF+acetone mix, but also might be expensive. And the crux of the argument - it works. I want to know why it works at least twice as good as the others on the list. Well, the standard answer is "'cause it is good stuff" :-) As for aluminum and steel joints. Yes iron and aluminum in the presence of an electrolyte results in some pretty spectacular corrosion but even a little insulation prevents that. Grease in the threads for example. On the bottom bracket in question, corrosion has already set in and it's too late for preventive measures. A favored insulation for sail boats where one has a considerable amount of stainless in contact with aluminum spars is lanolin for some reason. PTFE tape is my favorite. Close to lanolin is white lithium grease, which is essentially a soap. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_soap Just about anything seems to work. I've used lanolin, grease, some special stuff - looked like white grease but cost more, and even caulking compound. It all seemed to work :-) I wanted to read the original Machinists Workshop Magazine article, but couldn't find any back issues or copies online. This was the earliest reference I could find: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=20131.0 Try http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb...ng-oil-196347/ which describes the torque loads using different penetrating oils. From the Machinist Workshop Magazine, April 2007, issue. Thanks, but that is roughly the same as what I found in numerous other references to the article. I was looking for a copy of the original article. Or the magazine at http://www.machinistsworkshop.net/ But they don't seem to allow searching back issues. Yep, that's the problem. Usually, when there's something mentioned that often, someone scans the original article and posts it. Not this time. -- cheers, John B. |
Need advice on bottom bracket repair
On 1/9/2017 2:12 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 12:48:48 +0700, John B. wrote: On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 20:41:16 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 08:34:44 +0700, John B. wrote: There is a recipe for "home made penetrating fluid" I found on the web - equal measures of kerosene, ATF, mineral spirits, and acetone - that worked really well the time or two I tried it. The problem with it is I cold never find a bottle to store it in that the acetone didn't evaporate :-( I'm surprised that this concoction works. There are quite a few claims that ATF+acetone works best, but I don't see how. None of the comments I read talked about using it with aluminum, or an aluminum and steel combination. If the idea is to attack the oxides, which requires an acid, none of the mentioned ingredients will do anything useful, except lubricating the parts of the threads that are already broken loose. I'm not sure what the kerosene and mineral spirits actually add to the concoction as neither have much lubricity and are both of a higher viscosity than acetone so I suspect that the 50% ATF and 50% acetone mix that I've also seen recommended probably works as well. Seems like a popular concoction: http://www.instructables.com/id/Home-made-penetrating-oil/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CESDxCloCoQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5X0EMlIVx4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0kIPEzeTQ8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WuVBFTzoKc The last video claims that acetone breaks down rust (at 1:32), which it doesn't. What the ATF brings to the table is a detergent, a rust inhibitor, anti-foaming agent, an anti-oxidant, and some kind of lubricant, none of which seem useful for breaking loose rust or aluminum oxide. Forget the detergent, the anti-foaming, the anti-oxidant and concentrate on the lubricant. If you mix acetone with ATF you get a lubricant that initially has a viscosity of approximately 1/2 - 1/3 that of water (water centipose = 0.89,. acetone = 0.31) so it flows into some pretty small cracks. Then the acetone evaporates leaving at least some oil in the joint. Good point. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viscosity#Viscosity_of_selected_substances The only other solvent on the list that might work is methanol at 0.54. Looks like acetone might be the best choice as a thinner. Low viscosity silicon oil (0.65): http://www.clearcoproducts.com/pure-silicone-super-low-viscosity.html http://www.clearcoproducts.com/pdf/volatile/NP-PSF-0_65cSt.pdf Might work instead of the ATF+acetone mix, but also might be expensive. And the crux of the argument - it works. I want to know why it works at least twice as good as the others on the list. As for aluminum and steel joints. Yes iron and aluminum in the presence of an electrolyte results in some pretty spectacular corrosion but even a little insulation prevents that. Grease in the threads for example. On the bottom bracket in question, corrosion has already set in and it's too late for preventive measures. A favored insulation for sail boats where one has a considerable amount of stainless in contact with aluminum spars is lanolin for some reason. PTFE tape is my favorite. Close to lanolin is white lithium grease, which is essentially a soap. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_soap I wanted to read the original Machinists Workshop Magazine article, but couldn't find any back issues or copies online. This was the earliest reference I could find: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=20131.0 Try http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb...ng-oil-196347/ which describes the torque loads using different penetrating oils. From the Machinist Workshop Magazine, April 2007, issue. Thanks, but that is roughly the same as what I found in numerous other references to the article. I was looking for a copy of the original article. Or the magazine at http://www.machinistsworkshop.net/ But they don't seem to allow searching back issues. Yep, that's the problem. Usually, when there's something mentioned that often, someone scans the original article and posts it. Not this time. Nothing wrong with white lithium grease, lanolin, teflon tape or Gene's favorite linseed oil. Where steel threads to aluminum, assuming moisture or just humidity, a molybdenum-rich paste is the go-to prep. Note molybdenum paste is not much of a lubricant but it is a great anticorrosive barrier. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
Need advice on bottom bracket repair
On Monday, January 9, 2017 at 6:30:37 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/9/2017 2:12 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 12:48:48 +0700, John B. wrote: On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 20:41:16 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Mon, 09 Jan 2017 08:34:44 +0700, John B. wrote: There is a recipe for "home made penetrating fluid" I found on the web - equal measures of kerosene, ATF, mineral spirits, and acetone - that worked really well the time or two I tried it. The problem with it is I cold never find a bottle to store it in that the acetone didn't evaporate :-( I'm surprised that this concoction works. There are quite a few claims that ATF+acetone works best, but I don't see how. None of the comments I read talked about using it with aluminum, or an aluminum and steel combination. If the idea is to attack the oxides, which requires an acid, none of the mentioned ingredients will do anything useful, except lubricating the parts of the threads that are already broken loose. I'm not sure what the kerosene and mineral spirits actually add to the concoction as neither have much lubricity and are both of a higher viscosity than acetone so I suspect that the 50% ATF and 50% acetone mix that I've also seen recommended probably works as well. Seems like a popular concoction: http://www.instructables.com/id/Home-made-penetrating-oil/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CESDxCloCoQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5X0EMlIVx4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0kIPEzeTQ8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WuVBFTzoKc The last video claims that acetone breaks down rust (at 1:32), which it doesn't. What the ATF brings to the table is a detergent, a rust inhibitor, anti-foaming agent, an anti-oxidant, and some kind of lubricant, none of which seem useful for breaking loose rust or aluminum oxide. Forget the detergent, the anti-foaming, the anti-oxidant and concentrate on the lubricant. If you mix acetone with ATF you get a lubricant that initially has a viscosity of approximately 1/2 - 1/3 that of water (water centipose = 0.89,. acetone = 0.31) so it flows into some pretty small cracks. Then the acetone evaporates leaving at least some oil in the joint. Good point. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viscosity#Viscosity_of_selected_substances The only other solvent on the list that might work is methanol at 0.54. Looks like acetone might be the best choice as a thinner. Low viscosity silicon oil (0.65): http://www.clearcoproducts.com/pure-silicone-super-low-viscosity.html http://www.clearcoproducts.com/pdf/volatile/NP-PSF-0_65cSt.pdf Might work instead of the ATF+acetone mix, but also might be expensive. And the crux of the argument - it works. I want to know why it works at least twice as good as the others on the list. As for aluminum and steel joints. Yes iron and aluminum in the presence of an electrolyte results in some pretty spectacular corrosion but even a little insulation prevents that. Grease in the threads for example. On the bottom bracket in question, corrosion has already set in and it's too late for preventive measures. A favored insulation for sail boats where one has a considerable amount of stainless in contact with aluminum spars is lanolin for some reason. PTFE tape is my favorite. Close to lanolin is white lithium grease, which is essentially a soap. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_soap I wanted to read the original Machinists Workshop Magazine article, but couldn't find any back issues or copies online. This was the earliest reference I could find: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=20131.0 Try http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb...ng-oil-196347/ which describes the torque loads using different penetrating oils. From the Machinist Workshop Magazine, April 2007, issue. Thanks, but that is roughly the same as what I found in numerous other references to the article. I was looking for a copy of the original article. Or the magazine at http://www.machinistsworkshop.net/ But they don't seem to allow searching back issues. Yep, that's the problem. Usually, when there's something mentioned that often, someone scans the original article and posts it. Not this time. Nothing wrong with white lithium grease, lanolin, teflon tape or Gene's favorite linseed oil. Where steel threads to aluminum, assuming moisture or just humidity, a molybdenum-rich paste is the go-to prep. Note molybdenum paste is not much of a lubricant but it is a great anticorrosive barrier. Since I wasn't familiar with this I looked it up and it sure looks like the way to go. I think that if you want a light bike that aluminum is the way to go since in the stress tests and fatigue tests they weren't able to make the good quality frames/forks fail. Although more and more components are being made of carbon I sure as hell would steer away from them. It appears that the two most common failures are handlebars and seatposts. Aluminum cranks fail too but the pictures I've had of these failures show really abused cranks. Often pitted from being left out in the weather. Whereas the failures of FSA and Campy carbon cranks seem to occur rather rapidly and from manufacturing errors (a bubble in the layup). Since carbon cranks are so heavily built perhaps if you get past the initial period they may be more reliable than aluminum. This molybdenum paste is often called either a "lubricant" or "loctite" instead of an antiseize as you correctly mention. |
Need advice on bottom bracket repair
divinity deleted willya get a propane torch or heat gun .....
we went thru this a few months back. the white ionic exchange compound does not dissolve in organic solvents caws the white isnot organic ! eyeyhahhhahahhah .... I dunno what yawl doing dumping acetone into petroleum products ....cretins. acetone is here to emulsify petroleum products. Lieb...what's the home brew biggie ? chlorine and ? you pour it into the john n the bowl explodes ..... |
Need advice on bottom bracket repair
1 April, 1971
AFAIK, locktite on clean threads with a seal on outside surface with linseed applied with a small amount thinner if below 65 degrees..with an artists brush ....doahn pour it on or use a spray bottle. The brushes are at Wal handicrafts. the number of ? pouring organic solvents on white ionic debris must number in the thousands .....wd-40...wuhwuhwuh see https://www.google.com/#q=motorcycle+loading+fails |
Need advice on bottom bracket repair
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
:I want to know why it works at least twice as good as the others on :the list. My experience is that it doesn't. That's just one of the reasons no one puts it in a can and sells it commercially. I read the original article, a long time ago, and as I recall the testing method was about as scientfic as drawing lots. Commercial penetrating oils are far superior. -- sig 14 |
Need advice on bottom bracket repair
wrote in message ... On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 2:11:45 PM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot wrote: wrote in message ... On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 2:02:27 PM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot wrote: wrote in message ... On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 1:14:21 PM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot wrote: "Theodore Heise" wrote in message ... On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 11:08:20 -0600, AMuzi wrote: On 1/7/2017 8:33 PM, Theodore Heise wrote: Hi all, I have an early 1990s Rodriguez tandem with a rear bottom bracket in serious need of overhaul. The cranks flop severely. I've pulled the cranks and the lock ring on the left side, but the adjustable cup won't come out. It turns about a quarter turn, but then gets too stiff to turn further. It has no flats for a wrench instead having holes for turning with a pin spanner--so I'm unable to put a lot of force on it. I've soaked it with WD40, but still no joy. Any advice for me? Delco 10.4020 penetrant is the best, PC Blaster is good. Warming with a heat gun can help. If no other path, flats can be cut on the cup with a disc grinder to allow a wrench instead of those brittle expensive pins. p.s. Try the right side cup too. If that moves, you can easily deal with the left one after disasssembly. Thanks for the added tips. Off to get penetrating oil and new pins now. Grinding on it is beyond my abilities, so if I'm not able to get things off with the addition of penetrating oil and time, I'll be hauling it off to my LBS. At that stage; I'd turn it as far as the tight spot and give it a few strikes with a hammer. sometimes you can ease it out bit at a time that way. Once I had to shift a seized in pedal shaft, after snapping a couple of spanners - I welded on the biggest nut I had a spanner for. Quenching the hot steel with penetrating oil did slightly more than just spraying it on cold. The same approach would probably work with a BB cup. It is extremely bad practice to hammer a pin spanner. Who said anything about hammering a pin spanner?!!! If you can't be bothered reading a post - don't bother answering it either. I might suggest "At that stage; I'd turn it as far as the tight spot and give it a few strikes with a hammer. sometimes you can ease it out bit at a time that way." sounds an awful lot like hammering on a pin spanner. Are you supposing we're discussing removing pedals from a crank? Sorry - I forgot you were that thick. I'll draw pictures next time. So you meant something other than what you wrote. Well that makes sense. Its so simple it just never occurred to me that anyone could **** it up - but somehow you always seem to manage. |
Need advice on bottom bracket repair
On Monday, January 9, 2017 at 10:47:48 AM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot wrote:
wrote in message ... On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 2:11:45 PM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot wrote: wrote in message ... On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 2:02:27 PM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot wrote: wrote in message ... On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 1:14:21 PM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot wrote: "Theodore Heise" wrote in message ... On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 11:08:20 -0600, AMuzi wrote: On 1/7/2017 8:33 PM, Theodore Heise wrote: Hi all, I have an early 1990s Rodriguez tandem with a rear bottom bracket in serious need of overhaul. The cranks flop severely. I've pulled the cranks and the lock ring on the left side, but the adjustable cup won't come out. It turns about a quarter turn, but then gets too stiff to turn further. It has no flats for a wrench instead having holes for turning with a pin spanner--so I'm unable to put a lot of force on it. I've soaked it with WD40, but still no joy. Any advice for me? Delco 10.4020 penetrant is the best, PC Blaster is good. Warming with a heat gun can help. If no other path, flats can be cut on the cup with a disc grinder to allow a wrench instead of those brittle expensive pins. p.s. Try the right side cup too. If that moves, you can easily deal with the left one after disasssembly. Thanks for the added tips. Off to get penetrating oil and new pins now. Grinding on it is beyond my abilities, so if I'm not able to get things off with the addition of penetrating oil and time, I'll be hauling it off to my LBS. At that stage; I'd turn it as far as the tight spot and give it a few strikes with a hammer. sometimes you can ease it out bit at a time that way. Once I had to shift a seized in pedal shaft, after snapping a couple of spanners - I welded on the biggest nut I had a spanner for. Quenching the hot steel with penetrating oil did slightly more than just spraying it on cold. The same approach would probably work with a BB cup. It is extremely bad practice to hammer a pin spanner. Who said anything about hammering a pin spanner?!!! If you can't be bothered reading a post - don't bother answering it either. I might suggest "At that stage; I'd turn it as far as the tight spot and give it a few strikes with a hammer. sometimes you can ease it out bit at a time that way." sounds an awful lot like hammering on a pin spanner. Are you supposing we're discussing removing pedals from a crank? Sorry - I forgot you were that thick. I'll draw pictures next time. So you meant something other than what you wrote. Well that makes sense. Its so simple it just never occurred to me that anyone could **** it up - but somehow you always seem to manage. Then perhaps you can explain how you didn't say to hit it with a hammer after writing for everyone to see you suggest hitting the pin spanner with a hammer? Did you mean that unless you vocalize it, that it doesn't count? |
Need advice on bottom bracket repair
wrote in message ... On Monday, January 9, 2017 at 10:47:48 AM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot wrote: wrote in message ... On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 2:11:45 PM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot wrote: wrote in message ... On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 2:02:27 PM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot wrote: wrote in message ... On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 1:14:21 PM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot wrote: "Theodore Heise" wrote in message ... On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 11:08:20 -0600, AMuzi wrote: On 1/7/2017 8:33 PM, Theodore Heise wrote: Hi all, I have an early 1990s Rodriguez tandem with a rear bottom bracket in serious need of overhaul. The cranks flop severely. I've pulled the cranks and the lock ring on the left side, but the adjustable cup won't come out. It turns about a quarter turn, but then gets too stiff to turn further. It has no flats for a wrench instead having holes for turning with a pin spanner--so I'm unable to put a lot of force on it. I've soaked it with WD40, but still no joy. Any advice for me? Delco 10.4020 penetrant is the best, PC Blaster is good. Warming with a heat gun can help. If no other path, flats can be cut on the cup with a disc grinder to allow a wrench instead of those brittle expensive pins. p.s. Try the right side cup too. If that moves, you can easily deal with the left one after disasssembly. Thanks for the added tips. Off to get penetrating oil and new pins now. Grinding on it is beyond my abilities, so if I'm not able to get things off with the addition of penetrating oil and time, I'll be hauling it off to my LBS. At that stage; I'd turn it as far as the tight spot and give it a few strikes with a hammer. sometimes you can ease it out bit at a time that way. Once I had to shift a seized in pedal shaft, after snapping a couple of spanners - I welded on the biggest nut I had a spanner for. Quenching the hot steel with penetrating oil did slightly more than just spraying it on cold. The same approach would probably work with a BB cup. It is extremely bad practice to hammer a pin spanner. Who said anything about hammering a pin spanner?!!! If you can't be bothered reading a post - don't bother answering it either. I might suggest "At that stage; I'd turn it as far as the tight spot and give it a few strikes with a hammer. sometimes you can ease it out bit at a time that way." sounds an awful lot like hammering on a pin spanner. Are you supposing we're discussing removing pedals from a crank? Sorry - I forgot you were that thick. I'll draw pictures next time. So you meant something other than what you wrote. Well that makes sense. Its so simple it just never occurred to me that anyone could **** it up - but somehow you always seem to manage. Then perhaps you can explain how you didn't say to hit it with a hammer after writing for everyone to see you suggest hitting the pin spanner with a hammer? Did you mean that unless you vocalize it, that it doesn't count? I didn't say hit the pin spanner with a hammer - you did. |
Need advice on bottom bracket repair
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Need advice on bottom bracket repair
On Sun, 8 Jan 2017 14:59:56 -0800 (PST),
DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote: On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 12:59:14 PM UTC-5, Theodore Heise wrote: On Sun, 8 Jan 2017 08:56:40 -0800 (PST), wrote: Ted, I don't quite follow. You are talking about using a pin spanner and then say that you need to get the adjustable cup off first. Isn't that what we were talking about? The lock nut on the adjustable side and the fixed cup do not use pin spanners as far as I know. Sorry. I have the lock ring off on the left, non-drive side, and am left with an adjustable cup that will only turn partway. The fixed cup is still in place too (on the other side), so the spindle is in place and blocks putting in the bolt and nut that Sheldon describes. For what it's worth, the fixed cup also seems to be pretty stuck. It's an aluminum frame, so presumably the shell is aluminum too and there may be some corrosion in the interface between the two different metals of the shell and the cups? if you search on aluminum/steel frame/shells/cups install or remove there should be an avalanche of umbrage. if your system shows white material in joints then poss an ionic binding occurred between steel and aluminum. Andy Muzi is an expert on this. Blaster does not dissolve the white material. Uneeda torch and another pin tool. expanding aluminum with torch or heat gun will remove the cup. Okay, I will try heating too. -- Ted Heise Bloomington, IN, USA |
Need advice on bottom bracket repair
On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 17:01:01 -0800,
Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 16:31:15 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote: (...) Yet another untested idea... Use an induction heater on the steel cup. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyZEaPQinO0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJElT9xK3bk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uimEZKrVNO0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3u1IBgefNDs [1] http://www.theinductor.com You'll need various size coils for different bolts, cups, seat posts, etc. There are induction heater kits on eBay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1000W-ZVS-Low-Voltage-Induction-Heating-Board-Module-Flyback-Heater-Brass-Coil-/282317713643 The steel cup gets hot and not so much the rest of the bicycle, including the aluminum bottom bracket which sucks away much of the heat. However, you can get the steel hot enough to melt the aluminum, so please use an IR thermometer to keep the temperatures down. Aluminum melts at 660C. Yikes! -- Ted Heise Bloomington, IN, USA |
Need advice on bottom bracket repair
On Monday, January 9, 2017 at 1:46:39 PM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot wrote:
wrote in message ... On Monday, January 9, 2017 at 10:47:48 AM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot wrote: wrote in message ... On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 2:11:45 PM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot wrote: wrote in message ... On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 2:02:27 PM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot wrote: wrote in message ... On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 1:14:21 PM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot wrote: "Theodore Heise" wrote in message ... On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 11:08:20 -0600, AMuzi wrote: On 1/7/2017 8:33 PM, Theodore Heise wrote: Hi all, I have an early 1990s Rodriguez tandem with a rear bottom bracket in serious need of overhaul. The cranks flop severely. I've pulled the cranks and the lock ring on the left side, but the adjustable cup won't come out. It turns about a quarter turn, but then gets too stiff to turn further. It has no flats for a wrench instead having holes for turning with a pin spanner--so I'm unable to put a lot of force on it. I've soaked it with WD40, but still no joy. Any advice for me? Delco 10.4020 penetrant is the best, PC Blaster is good. Warming with a heat gun can help. If no other path, flats can be cut on the cup with a disc grinder to allow a wrench instead of those brittle expensive pins. p.s. Try the right side cup too. If that moves, you can easily deal with the left one after disasssembly. Thanks for the added tips. Off to get penetrating oil and new pins now. Grinding on it is beyond my abilities, so if I'm not able to get things off with the addition of penetrating oil and time, I'll be hauling it off to my LBS. At that stage; I'd turn it as far as the tight spot and give it a few strikes with a hammer. sometimes you can ease it out bit at a time that way. Once I had to shift a seized in pedal shaft, after snapping a couple of spanners - I welded on the biggest nut I had a spanner for. Quenching the hot steel with penetrating oil did slightly more than just spraying it on cold. The same approach would probably work with a BB cup. It is extremely bad practice to hammer a pin spanner. Who said anything about hammering a pin spanner?!!! If you can't be bothered reading a post - don't bother answering it either. I might suggest "At that stage; I'd turn it as far as the tight spot and give it a few strikes with a hammer. sometimes you can ease it out bit at a time that way." sounds an awful lot like hammering on a pin spanner. Are you supposing we're discussing removing pedals from a crank? Sorry - I forgot you were that thick. I'll draw pictures next time. So you meant something other than what you wrote. Well that makes sense. Its so simple it just never occurred to me that anyone could **** it up - but somehow you always seem to manage. Then perhaps you can explain how you didn't say to hit it with a hammer after writing for everyone to see you suggest hitting the pin spanner with a hammer? Did you mean that unless you vocalize it, that it doesn't count? I didn't say hit the pin spanner with a hammer - you did. Then exactly how is it that you can't explain your posting: "At that stage; I'd turn it as far as the tight spot and give it a few strikes with a hammer. sometimes you can ease it out bit at a time that way." Are you suggesting he was turning it out with his fingers? |
Need advice on bottom bracket repair
"Theodore Heise" wrote in message ... On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 17:01:01 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 16:31:15 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote: (...) Yet another untested idea... Use an induction heater on the steel cup. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyZEaPQinO0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJElT9xK3bk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uimEZKrVNO0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3u1IBgefNDs [1] http://www.theinductor.com You'll need various size coils for different bolts, cups, seat posts, etc. There are induction heater kits on eBay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1000W-ZVS-Low-Voltage-Induction-Heating-Board-Module-Flyback-Heater-Brass-Coil-/282317713643 The steel cup gets hot and not so much the rest of the bicycle, including the aluminum bottom bracket which sucks away much of the heat. However, you can get the steel hot enough to melt the aluminum, so please use an IR thermometer to keep the temperatures down. Aluminum melts at 660C. Yikes! An electric heat gun is safer than a blowtorch - but I think you still have to be a bit careful. The heavy duty paint strippers aren't too bad, but some heat guns are designed for lighting solid fuel cooking ranges. |
Need advice on bottom bracket repair
On Monday, January 9, 2017 at 2:15:41 PM UTC-8, Theodore Heise wrote:
On Sun, 8 Jan 2017 10:43:33 -0800 (PST), wrote: On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 10:01:31 AM UTC-8, Theodore Heise wrote: On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 11:08:20 -0600, AMuzi wrote: On 1/7/2017 8:33 PM, Theodore Heise wrote: Hi all, I have an early 1990s Rodriguez tandem with a rear bottom bracket in serious need of overhaul. The cranks flop severely. I've pulled the cranks and the lock ring on the left side, but the adjustable cup won't come out. It turns about a quarter turn, but then gets too stiff to turn further. It has no flats for a wrench instead having holes for turning with a pin spanner--so I'm unable to put a lot of force on it. I've soaked it with WD40, but still no joy. Any advice for me? Delco 10.4020 penetrant is the best, PC Blaster is good. Warming with a heat gun can help. If no other path, flats can be cut on the cup with a disc grinder to allow a wrench instead of those brittle expensive pins. p.s. Try the right side cup too. If that moves, you can easily deal with the left one after disasssembly. Thanks for the added tips. Off to get penetrating oil and new pins now. Grinding on it is beyond my abilities, so if I'm not able to get things off with the addition of penetrating oil and time, I'll be hauling it off to my LBS. As a last resort, once I simply pulled out the bottom bracket via the fixed side and then spend half a day cutting the adjustable cup with a hacksaw blade up to but not touching the threads. This allowed the cup to collapse partially when the pin spanner was applied and come loose. If you have an aluminum frame and BB you cannot leave them outside in the winter and should not ride through water deep enough to threaten the integrity of the coupling. By the way - you ARE turning the adjustable cup off clockwise aren't you? No, counterclockwise--same direction the lockring came off, and the direction that every website I looked at called for. As I understand it, the fixed cup may be threaded the other direction. -- Ted Heise Bloomington, IN, USA Uh, Ted, what does the lock ring and the fixed cup have stamped on them? Unless your Tandem is Italian the bottom bracket is probably either French of most probably English. That means that the adjustable side (left ride looking forward) will be threaded BACKWARDS. And it will unwind in a clockwise direction. That is one of the most common errors of people taking bottom brackets out for the first half dozen times. |
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