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Old June 3rd 04, 05:53 PM
Dan Volker
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Default Danny-boy flails some more! (was: Advice on a good hardtail.)

"Jonesy" wrote in message
"Dan Volker" wrote in message

"Jonesy" wrote in message

Which ones were those?

Canondales, Specialized, Diamond Back

What models?

Mostly X-country ( 3 inch travel models)

So, comparing all these different bikes, ones with completely
different design purposes, really doesn't give you much of a broad
base for discussing free-ride bikes. Got it.

I never said I did. The discussion I was having with a person about
hardtails and FS, was about typical mountain biking--not Freeriding
specifically as you now suggest.

But I like the lame-ass barbs you try and stick onto the ends - they
really make you look smart. LOL.

Santa Cruz Blur, Intense Spyder.

I didn't know these were long-travel free-ride style bikes. Hmmm.

Most bikes I have ridden are 3 inch travel or less

So, you really don't have a broad base of comparison. I see.

You got me Jonesey. I'm "not" a professional mountain bike reviewer, I have
"not" ridden every single mountain bike there is, and I've only been
participating on AMB for a few months now. While I did start mountain
biking back in the 80's ( in Western NY) , this certainly can not compare to
a guy like you who has become a posting legend on AMB..

that you have sufficient bike action input on rides to become aware
of this flex

There's motion in the rear of the bike. A bending moment that can be
felt on the trail, that disrupts the bikes handling.

You still have not explained how you could possibly know it is bending which
is taking place, as opposed to tires skipping from poor rear shock set
up--exagerated by the long rocker arm.

poorly set up shocks for a
specific frame, as another

Since the TALAS R was designed for the Liquid, specifically, and since
the manual states exactly how to set it up for rider weight and
desired travel characteristics, this one is just an exercise in
straw-clutching. You have yet to explain how this effects the plane
of motion from side-to-side.

I'm sure several other possibilities could be
considered as well.

Indeed. Mostly, it seems that what we have here is one person, with a
broad background in twisty, challenging singletrack, demoing a bunch
of different free-ride bikes, vs. some flatlander know-it-all who
tested one or two different bikes, and now thinks he's some sort of

With your broad, expansive background in twisty, challenging singletrack,
and your experience with such a wide variety of Freeride bikes, All Mountain
Bikes, X-country bikes, etc., its actually very kind of you to converse with
those of us not so fortunate. I guess I should thank you.

While I don't have the same high opinion of my bike knowledge that you do of
yours, I would like to point out that most of my first decade of riding was
in Western NY, and even after I moved to Florida, I travel to North Carolina
frequently. And I have ridden closer to a dozen different bikes, not the 2
or 3 you attribute to me---of course no comparison to you, but enough to
justify my having "some opinions".

I can live with that comparison.

And after you have shown repeatedly that you have almost
no awareness of whether you are riding a rockshox or a Manitou

Bzzzt. I knew exactly what I was riding. Just because it wasn't the
very same model as what you rode makes very little difference. Just
because *you* claim some world of difference doesn't mean anything.
Hell, your claims are frequently and hilariously debunked here.

So far most of the hilarity has been in your attempted debunking, where you
were clearly backstroking after you made some claims you now know are pretty
ridiculous---such as your saying that a Trek dealer can assemble a Liquid 25
with any spec it wants--and not just the spec Trek has for that bike, on
its site. I'm sure a lot of people reading this thread laughed pretty hard
after they read that.

It also seems you have forgotten that the Liquid has huge
leverage in its rocker arm

The plane of motion that we are discussing has nothing to do with how
the shock is performing. It could be completely locked out, and there
would still be the same forces acting on the carbon stays and rocker
arms. (More or less - the point at which the tires are on the dirt in
the corner is where it moves laterally.)

I disagree.. In a high speed turn, there are vertical forces from bumps on
the trail, and there are lateral forces. It seems your contention is that
only lateral forces are working on the bike, to make the bike track well
through the turn. My contention is that unless you are cornering with slick
tires on glassy smooth blacktop, the irregular surface of the trail will be
acting to throw the tire ( and bike) up and down, and that as each of these
vertical hits occurs, as the tire bounces up, the tire can skid laterally.
This is true on downhills, on flats, and on climbs. If the shock, rocker arm
and basic rear suspension concept of the bike is working for the rider, the
vertical forces should be minimized to the point that lateral forces do not
suddenly succeed to break the tire free and slide it sideways. If the rear
end is "not" working properly for the rider, the tire can bounce up and down
in reaction to the irregularities on the trail, and with sufficient up
forces, it can loose traction and then skid laterally in a turn. Its not
about lock-out or the SPV alternative , its about how well the shock does at
smoothing out the bumps to keep traction. Having the right pressure for the
Manitou 3 Way rear shock ( for the rider), both in main spriing and in
preload, is necessary for this. Since you have not ridden the Liquid with
this shock, you don't really know how different it would be in mating to the
rocker arm and rear end of the Liquid, than the shock in the bike you did
ride. And since you did not even know what you were riding, I don't think
your comments here do justice to the high level of expectations, most AMB
readers must have of you .

What have you said so far that would indicate that
you had your rear shocks stet perfectly for you on the Liquid you rode?

They don't need to be set up "perfectly." They need to be set up
"close enough." If a bike doesn't operate well in "close enough",
then it's **** and you need to find a better bike. Funny, the
Specialized, Giant and Marin bikes worked just fine.

What would lead us to believe the bikes you rode were even set up "for you"
Maybe the last person the Liquid was "set up for" was at a drastically
different weight and riding style than you.???
Maybe the Specialized, Giant and Marin bikes were last ridden by someone to
too far from your legendary abilities or body weight ?

Don't you find
it odd that one bike was so poorly set up that it acted like ****, but
the others were set up well enough to act great? Was that just purely
by chance? As in every other claim you make, you destroy your
crediblity by even suggesting it.

how do you know that the Manitou 3 way SPV might just do a much better

of adjusting perfectly to your weight and riding style than the


The adjustable-travel shock is a Fox TALAS R. What were you saying
about not being able to keep stuff straight, again? LOL. (The fork
was Rock Sux.)

If it needs to be perfect to ride acceptably, that's a serious
indictment of the bike. Period.

[snip hilarious flailing]

Danny, I set up the shock, according to what Trek said in the manual
(it could have been the Fox manual - either way, it was for that
shock, and that bike.)

Maybe it was a Giant Manual you were reading--or maybe it was the manual for
your car---what's the differnence ?

The big leverage in the rocker arm, exagerates the importance of the
correctly mated shock system

BWAHAHAHAHAHA! If the rocker arm transmits force from anywhere, it
should ONLY be in a vertical plane. The only difference, throughout
the entire range of travel, is that the lateral forces become largest
at the point where the rear hub is furthest toward the rear. In a
well-designed bike, there should be very, very little lateral movement
at any point in the travel, even if the shock was just a plain,
vanilla coil shock. It might be boingy, spongy, and ill-suited toward
your riding style, but the pivots, rockers shock and stays should not
flex laterally.

You still have not shown a shred of evidence that any lateral flex or
movement occurs. Everything you attribute to latteral flex seems more likely
to be vertical hit induced lateral skidding--from poorly set up back end.

Hmmm, maybe you don't know everything about how every LBS specs,
loans, test-rides, or prices their bikes, huh?

Trek dealers are not supposed to be so incompetent that they can not
assemble bikes properly.

Unless, of course, the bikes come with a certain component spec from
the factory. One ordered specifically, or maybe there was a mid-year
spec change, or...

So you really are a backstroker....You have to know how hilarious it is for
you to pretend that a dealer can assemble any components they want on a bike
and still call it a Liquid 25. I guess I'll have to thank you again for
making me look good in this discussion :-)

Fact is, Danny, you have no idea WHY the bikes got specced this way,
and pretending it's incompetance means that you're just casting about
for some lifeline to save you ass.

That's not what our local Trek rep says about this :-)
Give me the name of the bike shop, and lets see what Trek will have to say
to them....

Too bad you're not man enough to admit that you don't really know what
the answer is.

If you call Trek, they will tell you what you saw
is wrong. You need to find more competent bike shops.

Funny thing about that - they have told me that some bikes get
different forks because they have similar price points. I'm sure you
could call them and hear the same thing.

But you won't.

A local Trek Rep is close enough. Alot more than you did--but then, you
prefer backstroking to eating crow :-)

No ****. It was a 30. I know you think you're making a point, so I'm
gonna leave it at "yeah, the 25 and 30 are completely different bikes
- so different they feel like they were made by different


The 25 and 50 are part of a lineup where each is supposed to have full

plush ( 5 inch potential travel), with SPV to prevent use of the full 5
inches when its not needed.

Like when you're pedalling? Ooops, except I wasn't pedalling, I was
going down the hill. The shocks are supposed to act completely
differently in that mode? Explain that, Dan. You keep speaking in
general, marketing, terms. Be specific and technical, so that
everyone will know that you know EXACTLY what you are talking about.

All shocks are not equal in their ability to work with a given rocker arm
and rear end. Some shocks will be easier to set up properly than others.
The only way to be specific, would be to have you at a real demo, where the
bikes could be set up optimally.

The 10 and 30 are a whole different
philosophy----changeable travel.

And this makes the same bike so drastically different on the downhill
(using the same travel setting as the SPV-equipped frame) that they
act like totally different bikes? Be detailed in your technical

Yeah right. I am supposed to provide detailed technical descriptions, while
you can't even be bothered to know what bike and components you are riding

You can say the 25 is similar to the 50.
You can say the 10 is similar to the 30. That's it.

And they all use the very same frame. Ooops, different paint. Ah-HA
- it's the *paint* that makes all the difference! Black paint is
flexier! No wonder red bikes are faster!

As it is, you are
deserving the title of the "worst Reviewer" of bikes or parts I have

heard of.

Since you are wrong so often, this is actually quite a compliment.
Thank you.

Exactly what has this to do with the internals filtering low-frequency
inputs? What's that, you say? Nothing? Yup, you're right. When
you're not pedalling, the bikes have *essentially* the same behavior,
assuming the shock is set up correctly.

We can't begin to assume the shock was set up correctly.

If it was set up according to the manual, then it was set up about as
correctly as it can be without extensive "dialling-in." But it
shouldn't need to be perfect to ride well. It should have a decent
range of "good enough." Just like the Giant, Marin and Specialized.
All set up to factory-recommended specs. No lateral flex in these
bikes. (Not entirely true, but one really has to be looking for it to

As I said before, if it needs to be set up perfectly to ride
acceptably, then the bike is crap.

Everything you have


Considering the source of this, Dan, you really do make yourself look
like a total tool. Works for me.

So, one of these shocks, the one that keeps the bike from bobbing when
pedalling, somehow does a better job of doing something other than
that than the shock that wasn't designed to keep the bike from bobbing
when pedalling?

A bike with a short rocker arm will have less leverage

Both bikes have the same rocker arm length. And both bikes had the
same travel (5 inches.)

You were comparing the Liquid to the Fuel--they do NOT have the same rocker
arm length. you did not ride the 25, so you can't really compare.

Dan V


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