On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 11:33:22 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 6/19/2020 9:14 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, June 19, 2020 at 5:16:33 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/19/2020 5:34 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/18/2020 11:42 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/18/2020 6:43 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 3:11:02 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/17/2020 2:48 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 10:57:18 AM UTC-7, wrote:

Was it recently as "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all
men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with
certain in alienable rights."?

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation
be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are
the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that
God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever." - Thomas
Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia?

"The right to freedom being the gift of God Almighty, it is not in
the power of man to alienate this gift and voluntarily become a
slave." - Samuel Adams, The Rights of the Colonists, 1772?

"God's hand was on me. God protected me and kept me through the
battle." - George Washington

"In the Name of the most Holy and undivided Trinity." - Treaty of Paris (1783)

"With hearts fortified with these animating reflections, we most
solemnly before God and the world Declare, that, exerting the utmost
energy of those powers which our beneficent Creator hath graciously
bestowed upon us, the arms we have been compelled by our enemies to
assume, we will, in defiance of every hazard, with unabating firmness
and perseverance, employ for the preservation of our liberties -
being with one mind resolved to die FREEMEN rather than to live
SLAVES." - Declaration of the Causes and Necessity of Taking Up Arms, July 5, 1775

Jay, it does not appear that you could make a very strong argument in
a court of law. After WW II there was such an upwelling of religion that my
father-in-law founded 26 churches himself and every one of them is
still running. You have never seen a bad day in your life, one in
which you had to wonder what you would have to say upon meeting your
creator, so you can pretend he doesn't exist until that day.


Yes, religion was big in the colonial US, but my point is that the
founding fathers created a secular federal government. Jefferson,
your first cited author, was a Deist and did not believe Jesus was the
son of God. Jefferson was the guy pushing for separation of church and
state and was even called an infidel.

Of course, there are various opinions about what Jefferson believed.
You're correct about his thoughts on Jesus, but "Deist" currently
implies some things he probably didn't accept. And then you have to
account for his (like anyone's) changing beliefs over time.

I suppose the whole Sally Hemings thing wasn't too helpful for him either.

I doubt very much that we can ever understand what really went on
there. Relationships are incredibly complex in modern times with modern
mores. They were no less complex back then.

Your religious beliefs are no business of the government, and vice versa.

OK, something I don't quite understand: Among many other "sins," the
government defines murder as being its business. But as I understand
it, there are religious sects that have condoned murder, or at least
killing of certain individuals; and not just in easy cases like self
defense. This has been true in at least some situations for at least
some Christian, Islamic, Hindu and other sects or sub-sects.

But of course, there's disagreement. Most religions do not condone
murder. Some oppose even capital punishment.

So if our government says "You can't murder people," isn't that
adopting a certain religious viewpoint and disregarding another?

We could ask (or could have asked) the same question regarding stores
opening on Sunday, liquor sales, polygamy, some types of gambling,
child marriage, homosexual acts and more.

Isn't "good" vs. "bad" often a judgment based on religious views?

- Frank Krygowski

Frank, I think that you'd agree that my punching you in the mouth would
be bad on your part and that you would hope that it is against my
religious principles which it is. My problem is that from your comments
you do not appear to have any principles beyond your own good. And that
is pretty much the definition of atheist.

As is often - or usually - the case, Tom, you are completely mistaken.



And the funny thing is that atheists can have an even more strongly
developed moral code than religious people.

On one hand, the kindest, most helpful, most charitable, most
"Christian" person I know is an atheist. So yes, an atheist _can_ have a
wonderful moral code.

On the other hand, I know some atheists who are, IMO, absolutely horrid
people with no apparent moral standards at all.


Sure. Everybody gets to have assholes.

So I think the "can" in your sentence is overly lax, to the point of
uselessness.

If we could get the information, it would be productive to sample a
large group of atheists and a large group of religious (or spiritual, or
"believing") people, and examine the moral codes of those in each group.
Look for a correlation. But first we'd have to agree on the moral codes,
which is a tough job in itself.

Don’t look for moral codes. Look for moral behaviour. Just don’t count
going to church as one of them.

They just have to develop it
from first principles, rather than just being told that some bearded man in
the sky will pitch you into a lake of fire if you’re not nice to your
fellow man.

I've found that it's very, very common for atheists to mock religious
people with that cartoon image. But I don't know any religious person
who literally believes in that cartoon figure.

So that tactic amounts to a straw man argument.

No, it’s a convenient conversational shorthand to distill the Old Testament
down to a single phrase.

Hmm. I don't remember the Old Testament mentioning God's beard. Can you
give me chapter and verse?

If you can't, you should admit it's a cartoon.

Which god? The father, the son or the holy ghost? Ghosts don't have beards, the son DID have a beard, and it's in all of the pictures. The shroud of Turin guy has a beard. From the interweb:

Jesus wore a beard. He followed Jewish law, which prohibited adult males from ‘disfiguring the edges of their beard.’ (Leviticus 19:27; Galatians 4:4) Also, the Bible mentions Jesus’ beard in a prophecy about his suffering.?—Isaiah 50:6.

Like father, like son, so two out of three gods have a beard. QED. I'm sure there is a 12th century rabbi who proved that Yahweh the uni-god has a beard, and he was very specific about how to trim it.

Try to put up a picture of a clean-shaven Jesus in your church and see how far that gets you.

It's been done. In fact, it was done for several hundred years before
the beard appeared in depictions of Jesus.

http://www.religionfacts.com/jesus/gallery

Also
https://www.psephizo.com/biblical-st...-have-a-beard/

I think we should approach this from another direction, a bike related
direction. Did Jesus ride a recumbent? If not, he probably didn't have a
beard.

Given the Jesus was a Jew and he lived about 2,000 years ago he
undoubtedly had a beard and likely smelled pretty strongly too.
--
cheers,

John B.