On Thursday, November 21, 2013 10:55:36 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Thursday, November 21, 2013 10:49:11 AM UTC-5, Dan O wrote:

The bike boxes do practically remove a hassle that I routinely
face. Sitting in the bike lane at a red light (can you believe
that I routinely face even this? :-), waiting to go straight ahead.
Car turns right on red. Fine, no problem. Another car turns right
on red. No problem. But now my light is about to go green, and
these right-on-red people are not even looking at the light -
instead they're looking to their left for clear to turn right on
red, and following the car ahead turning right on red one after
another. Now my light is green and still they're ~streaming around
the right turn (now with the green light but either unaware that
I'm there or not caring.

Good illustration. You put yourself at the far right, even though you're planning on going straight.


And pedestrians put themselves even farther right. That's the logical
order.

And it produces problems for you.

No, what "produces" the problem is motorists with inadequate situational
awareness failing to yield the right-of-way.

But it's mostly a minor hassle - usually just the one car that was
already working on his right turn on red and is just kind of slow
and tentative about it. I'm aware of what's going on - not going
to get creamed by him - just a little annoyed at a few seconds ;-)
delay tolerating his cluelessness (or sometimes, worse, disregard).
Not worth getting in front of a line of potentially hostile cagers
that I just filtered past.

I only noted that the bike box eliminates this, as a possible reason
for bicyclists to consider them beneficial (especially in a busy one-
way grid downtown at rush hour).

That's hardly surprising.

Traffic at interesections, in general, operates by "destination positioning." That means vehicles that are turning left stay to the left, perhaps even in a left-turn-only lane. Similarly, vehicles that are turning right stay to the right, and those going straight stay toward the center. When lanes are marked with arrows, they always conform to this supremely logical scheme.


Sure, and if it's a right-turn only lane, I'm left of it.

... except for bike lanes,

.... And sidewalks,

... of course.

Your straight through bike lane is to the right of motorists who want to turn right. You shouldn't be surprised that it causes problems.


I'm not surprised in the least. It doesn't "cause" problems; it's *the*
fundamental inherent problem of mixing vehicles of disparate speed in a
shared infrastructure.

It will cause problems whether or not it is painted green. It's putting you in a well-known blind spot,


'member when I said "one of the first things we do at a stop
light is check for right turning cars"? Eye contact, baby -
if you don't get it, assume they'll run over you and don't give
them the chance.

... and asking motorists to do something that's contrary to 100 years of traffic practice and expectations.


Luddite.

Needless to say, I don't experience that problem of yours.

Yeah, yeah, we know - you don't have any problems - heard it a million
times already. Don't really believe it for a second, though - quite
sure you've got your own set of problems (have tried to help with some
of them ;-)

snip


To reduce the moving right hooks, I'd prefer teaching cyclists not to pass moving motor vehicles on their blind side.


The bike boxes are not intended to prevent moving (stale green) right-
hooks. Oh, the green paint might help some, but nobody should count
on it. *That* (don't count on paint markings to deflect that cement
truck) is what people riding bicycles on the road should understand.
If that means they need to take a class or something, so be it.

That means don't run a green "invitation-to-a-right-hook" lane up to the intersection.


(Dan shakes his head slowly form side-to-side... )

What *do* you do with it? ... Never mind, I know - we erase it
and tell the bicyclists to man up and drive like a vehicle, right?

Right, Dan. It works.


It works for you. Heck, it works fine for me.

But guess what, buddy - *you're* in the losing "camp" on this one.
Facilities are here to stay - more on the way. And "Innovation!!",
oh, innovation - you ain't seen nothin' yet.

Look, you make a lot of sense. Truly exceptional sense in a crazy,
often stupid world. Help steer things back in the right direction
where you can. Encourage the up-and-coming. But there's no going
back to the '70s. The future is inevitable, man. Portland is leading
the way. They *will* hit 10% and beyond (even *with the streetcars
and the light rail and the buses and everything else).