On Tuesday, April 3, 2018 at 7:47:45 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-02 16:18, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 2:23:52 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-02 11:35, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 9:21:35 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-02 08:57, wrote:
On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 4:36:21 PM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-01 13:53, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/29/2018 5:34 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
sms wrote:
On 3/27/2018 7:39 AM, Joerg wrote:

Hydraulics also can suffer from sudden fade and
that's scary. Then they require bleeding which,
depending on the kind, is a messy business. On
mine particularly so because there is no bleed
kit for them. Cable disc brakes are fine for
pavement riding, just not for heavy duty MTB
riding.

Avoid hydraulic disc brakes at all costs. Stick to
mechanical disc brakes.



Which require constant adjustments as the pads wear,
have cables that weather eats, etc.

All my bikes have disks the CX/gravel/adventure road?
Is cable the others are hydraulic.

The cable is a lot more fuss, the Hydros just work,
once set up you feed them pads which is very easy.

Personally as someone who rides off-road plus high
(ish) miles commuting disks and preferably Hydro are
game changers in terms of performance and
maintenance.

In terms of stuff like power, there is quite a
overlap between the two, my gravel bikes cable disks
is about as powerful as the old commute MTB with its
older and cheaper Hydro brakes, both are embarrassing
weak compared to my Full suspension MTB.

"Embarrassingly weak" sounds strange to me. Aren't you
really talking about overall mechanical advantage -
that is, lever force vs. braking force?

Practical braking force, especially off-road, is
limited by traction and/or by risk of pitchover. I fail
to see why getting that amount of force from a one
pound lever force is better than getting it from a two
pound lever force. I can squeeze a two pound force all
day.

Modern MTB’s have much slack geometry, and frankly it’s
a fairly green Cyclist who can’t adjust some of there
weight, why do you think dropper posts are in use?


You wouldn't believe it but someone (Frank?) posted a
video here a while ago about a series crash in a steep
downhill curve during a Tour de France. The majority of
riders who crashed did not scoot behind the saddle for max
braking action. These were all professional riders yet they
clearly lacked instincts any serious MTB rider has.

Joerg telling pro road riders how to brake. That will be the
day.


Yes, I do know better braking techniques than many of those
riders did and would have likely either not crashed or not as
hard. I found the video again, it wasn't the Tour de France but
a race in Utah:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRM3bFXlyNk

If you do not know what the first rider who crashed and some
others did wrong I suggest you refrain from MTB riding in the
mountains.

You are not a better rider than the four-time Irish national
road champ and pro-continental cyclist.


In terms of power and endurance, or course not. Never. In terms of
MTB rider instinct I am rather sure I would. Whenever I see a
situation that could go wrong I am behind the saddle. Even if the
situation just feels iffy.

Mountain is not road. There is no steering with braking, and
radically un-weighting your front wheel can result in wash-out on a
reversed-bank descending turn. You need to push back on the saddle
and maybe straighten your arms but you need both tires and both
brakes working for you.


Do some tests, it isn't all that different between offroad and on
pavement. It's just that offroad you can wipe out much easier but the
physics are the same.


The crash in this case was caused by a rider being put over the apex
of a turn, allegedly by support vehicle traffic. The rider was going
too fast for the turn, and hard, positive braking would have done
very little to prevent the crash.


It is not about preventing the crash, it clearly was too late for that.
It is about reducing the severity of the crash. What is better, smacking
into a car at 40mph or at 30mph?


... Brammeier made a mistake, but I
guaranty you that he can beat you down any paved road. Go do some
descending with national or world-class road cyclists and then report
back. You'll learn just how bad you suck.


Sure they will beat me in downhill riding technique and pretty much any
otehr race-relevant skills. I do not corner well and I also never let'er
rip past 45mph on a long downhill stretch. Especially after the last
tire blow-out.

However, we were not talking about skills to win a race. We are talking
about reaction in emergencies and there was a clear lack visible in that
video. This is how it's done right:

https://janheine.wordpress.com/2013/...-on-a-bicycle/

Clearly some other riders in the video had the correct instincts and
posture approching this situation.


It is not just the braking phase where he should have gone behind
the saddle, it is also the moment of impact. He just goes into the
rear left side of the car "as is". I had a similar situation with a
VW Polo driver blowing a stop sign, so close that there was no way
to stop or slow down much. I instinctively slid behind the
handlebar and turned a bit. This resulted in not having an
uncontrolled exit from the bike and flying through the air like
this rider. Instead, it resulted in my right shoulder blade and
side absorbing the brunt of the impact. My upper body smashed the
driver side door to the point where the driver could no longer open
it from inside but I essentially remained on the remains of my bike
(which was pretzeled), lots of bruises but nothing serious. I was
able to help the elderly driver get out.

He was allegedly bailing out directly across the apex of the turn
when a car drove in front of him. He made a forced error in hitting
the turn too fast on the inside.


And wrong seat position. Afterwards wrong impact stance. He was lucky he
didn't hit the car a few feet more forward or he'd have gotten his face
cut up by the rack and stuff on top.



He made a split second error on
the queen stage of a very difficult race. He was chasing to get
back on and was confused by the support cars:

He remembers rounding the second last bend before his crash.
Then things took a dramatic turn for the worse.

“I just remember coming around that corner, it was one of the
first corners of the climb on the downhill side and there was
just a line of traffic up ahead.


This would have been a great time to apply the brakes. Hard.

Probably, but better to be on the outside of the turn looking across
the apex planning his entry and exit. But he was pushed out of line
by a support vehicle. **** happens.


Right but when it does you need to react right then and there, not
seconds later.

Shoulda, coulda, woulda . . . the fact is that even a pro-continental level rider can make a momentary mistake, and it is easy in retrospect for spectators to say what should have been done. Without getting into what Brammeier could have or should have done, just throwing your weight back is not SOP for fast, off-camber turns on a road bike. It's great for in-line panic stops, but when you're descending and turning, weight transfer is more subtle, and involves fore-aft, side to side, and up-down -- and when panic stopping through a corner, shifting your weight way back and getting too much rear traction can lead to a high side crash. I'd rather wash out both wheels and take the low side crash, assuming I have to crash.




“Straight away I saw all the cars and where they were in the road
but the traffic threw me onto the wrong side of the road.

“So my line was totally messed up around the corner…there was no
chance of me making it so I was just looking for an exit plan,
really.

“I was headed for the bushes but this car just turned right in
front of me.

“I thought he was going to stop but he just drove around the
corner, I hit it and that’s the last thing I remember.”

Brammeier was knocked out briefly and doesn’t remember anything
until he arrived in hospital “which is probably a good thing”.

“I think at that point, I was out of it, I didn’t really feel
any pain or anything. I was just pretty spaced out,” he said of
that first night.

“When I had my first diagnosis at the hospital I was like ‘****,
this is really bad’.”

He supposedly felt fine, but I bet plenty of the chasing riders
were wiped out. Guardsman is above 9,500, and the descent comes
after a grueling climb.


That altitude and "full throttle mode" can probably slow someone's
reaction. However, I was surprised that many riders did not take
instinctive countermeasures at all.

Have you ever raced road -- done a 100kph descent?


No, I find that too risky on li'l 25mm tires that can let their 110psi
go within a split second. Especially since I don't have medics following
me at every turn like these guys do.

I did 62mph on 21mm tires on Carson Pass -- just up the road from you. On a closed road for the Death Ride in the days of yore. No medics, although I could have used a saline drip. I was wiped out and probably headed to dehydration from the heat. I've ridden in the 50-60mph range and gotten passed, which is freaky. Too much wind resistance I guess, and I'm too old for this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvmibwafGXc Riding with racers who can really descend is eye-opening, particularly on wet pavement. That's when I just dial it down and meet them at the bottom.


-- Jay Beattie.