On 2018-04-03 17:45, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, April 3, 2018 at 3:46:05 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-03 14:03, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, April 3, 2018 at 12:09:23 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-03 10:11, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, April 3, 2018 at 7:47:45 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-02 16:18, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 2:23:52 PM UTC-7, Joerg
wrote:
On 2018-04-02 11:35, jbeattie wrote:


[...]


He made a split second error on
the queen stage of a very difficult race. He was
chasing to get back on and was confused by the
support cars:

He remembers rounding the second last bend before
his crash. Then things took a dramatic turn for the
worse.

“I just remember coming around that corner, it was
one of the first corners of the climb on the downhill
side and there was just a line of traffic up ahead.


This would have been a great time to apply the brakes.
Hard.

Probably, but better to be on the outside of the turn
looking across the apex planning his entry and exit. But
he was pushed out of line by a support vehicle. ****
happens.


Right but when it does you need to react right then and
there, not seconds later.

Shoulda, coulda, woulda . . . the fact is that even a
pro-continental level rider can make a momentary mistake, and
it is easy in retrospect for spectators to say what should
have been done. Without getting into what Brammeier could
have or should have done, just throwing your weight back is
not SOP for fast, off-camber turns on a road bike.


It is SOP for any bike (other than recumbents, of course) when
facing a situation of potential impact. It's got nothing to do
with the turn, he knew he would not be able to make that turn
anymore and that there either would be a crash or lift-off
straight out of the curve and into the vegetation. Like in the
video.

Several riders in the video have instinctively done it right.
Why do you think that is?

O.K. Let's review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKdVMYo1H38

What "instinctively right?" All the riders who made it
successfully through the turn were in their saddles and riding in
classic style --


sigh

Please get your glasses and try again. Then look, for example, at
the first two riders, 0:02min and at 0:05min. They are clearly
behind the saddle. The two that follow didn't get far enough behind
and, not surprisingly, ride a lousy line in the curve.


no bellies on the top tub, but off the back, etc., etc. Go to
:07 for example, and the rider at :10 IMO, the rider with the
best line is at :17 starting far right and ending far left across
the crown, planted in his saddle, weight back but clearly on the
saddle. No Heine moves.


Get you glasses and check again.


Go to the slow-mo at 1:57 and look at their position.



They are slower.


... Then watch when Brammeier comes into the frame at 2:08 --
something is going horribly wrong. At one point, both wheels are
off the ground, like he's on a ski jump. He lands the front
wheel.


Yes, he lost control of his bike well before entering the curve.
Hard to say why but without going behind teh saddle he may not have
been able to brake hard in order to slow down enough.


He gets the rear wheel
down at 2:11, tries to turn and high-sides before even hitting
the car. It was not a wall impact -- which would have been the
outcome had he taken a straight line. Turn, plant, high-side. In
fact, at 2:11-2:12, he's almost got the bike traveling in the
direction of the turn -- but it's also going sideways by then and
way too fast.


He is trying to get into the right impact position but remains too
high. When I had my impact into the side of a car I dropped way low
and didn't sail across (didn't want to crash into unkown stuff on
the other side of the car or end up impaled). Essentially the
surprisingly pliable metal of the door acted as my crash pillow.
Got to make sure not to hit a window.


Now go to 4:00 and see the riders coming down the hill. Freeze
the first rider at 4:01 and note his position on the bike -- same
with rider No. 2. Now go to 4:14 and there is Brammeier
approaching the turn. At 4:15 he locks up his rear wheel,
fish-tails and then launches off the lip of the descending turn.


He was way too fast to begin with. At that point it was already
over.


... Slow-mo of same: pause at 7:21 to see the position of two
successful riders -- pretty normal position.


7:21min has no info, just some image tiles. It is not a problem to
remain seated the entire downhill ride _if_ your speed is adjusted
to conditions.

Correction 4:47. First and second riders hitting the turn. Position
looks pretty normal to me, and maybe we're fighting over nothing.
Getting weight back for straight line slowing before a turn is common
-- but nobody is doing the hyper-Heine thing. That's not necessary.


It is necessary when you realize you are well into an "Oh s..t!"
situation. Why would anyone want to give up even a small portion of
braking action?


Again, look at the three riders at :17. The guy on the outside is
classic -- practically straight outside leg, nice line into the turn,
weight centered. He comes across the apex and has room to spare on
the other side and probably would have carried even more speed
through the turn if there weren't traffic. Brammeier ski-jumped over
the top of the turn. Personally, I like the guy who threads his way
around the outside of the turn, past the officials and spectators.
"Excuse me, pardon me, I'm racing here . . . "


It makes no sense to belabor this forever. Fact is there were several
riders in this video with the correct instincts who went well behind the
saddle and didn't crash. I have pointed them out. Of the ones that
crashed none went behind the saddle.


No belly on top tube, no Heine heinie. The bad sh**t
happens at 5:55. You can see that at 5:46 he's too far over to
rider's right and maybe pushed there by the car just ahead. Who
knows, but interference from support vehicles is not apparent at
that point.

The real story was the turn before the crash. Brammeier had too
much speed out of the prior right turn and because of support car
or for whatever reason, he was out of position for the immediate
left an got launched over the lip of that descending left turn.
Land, stick it, brake and high-side. Bummer.


Yes, he came around the prior curve already way too fast. If you
then go behind the saddle you can slow down much quicker but he
didn't. It may still not be enough to avoid a crash but it sure can
make the crash less severe.


I'm telling you, Guardsman is a killer and scary even in a car,
and the road surface near the top is ruined, near gravel asphalt
-- and
15%. You climb just to get your ass kicked at the end.


I'd ride that on my MTB. Much better gearing for the climb and
huge hydraulic disc brakes. Also more trunk space for a thermos
with homemade IPA :-)

You'll need homemade IPA in Utah (assuming its legal to home brew).


It seems to be legal:

https://www.brewersassociation.org/p...all-50-states/

I'd never even consider a state if it wasn't. That would be blacklisted
on our personal "Places Rated" list.


You're not going to get anything convincing on tap -- only in a
bottle. I'm going there on Friday. What's amazing is that its hard
to get into the brewpub near my son's (soon to be former) apartment.


Do you have to fight the bouncer because they don't like Oregonians for
being too liberal on average? :-)

No kidding, something like that happened to a guy when house hunting in
Texas. When they noticed his California license plates. "Y'know, us
Texans around here don't like them liberals all that much". When he said
how he voted that broke the ice, attaboy, pats on the back and all that.


http://www.avenuesproper.com/ Totally unremarkable 4% on-tap IPA, but
the place is always hopping.


Yeah, people put up with almost anything if you can't get good brews
anywhere local. One can become spoiled. Yesterday my wife and I drank a
Grolsch which was always one of our staples. A friend had brought some
over. We both felt it tasted bland after having gotten used to homebrew.

Brewing makes totally no sense financially if you calculate in your own
invested time. However, then you always have "growler-fresh" beer at
hand but without having to drink the same type of beer from the same
growler all night. I often finish the evening with one of my favorites,
either a Belgian Tripel, a Honey Stout or a Pliny clone.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/