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Old December 9th 10, 06:52 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane Hébert
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Posts: 39
Default Bicyclist Fatalities in AZ 2009

On 12/9/2010 12:37 PM, Phil W Lee wrote:
Duane considered Wed, 08 Dec 2010
09:35:55 -0500 the perfect time to write:

On 12/7/2010 9:35 PM, Tºm Shermªn™ °_° wrote:
On 12/7/2010 12:06 PM, Duane Hébert wrote:
On 12/7/2010 12:47 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Dec 7, 9:31 am, Duane wrote:
On 12/7/2010 12:43 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

I think it's dangerous for a cyclist to ride the road's edge so as to
not displease the trucker. It's unacceptably dangerous to imply to
the trucker (or any motorist) that he's welcome to pass you with only
tiny clearance.

I feel extremely safe handling it the way I do. I'm making a big deal
of it because Duane mocked the fact that I control the trucker's
behavior.

I didn't mock you. I questioned your assertion that you
on a bicycle are controlling the trucker's behavior. This is
only true if the trucker sees you and allows it. I've had cases
where the truck didn't see me and cases where they didn't allow
it.

Your claim that you can control a truck that weighs several tons more
than you traveling at higher speeds than you, in every case is what
is dangerous here. Not cycling.

So DR, what _do_ you do in that situation? 10 foot lane, 8.5 foot
truck. Do you suddenly bail to ride the sidewalk, or do you bump
along in the gutter, or do you control the lane?

Hmm. So staying in my narrow lane when a truck approaches from behind
is what's dangerous? Despite my having done so for decades with no
problems? Not only has it never been a safety problem, I honestly see
no alternative, if I'm going to ride my bike for transportation.

I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying assuming that it's safe because
you have control is incorrect. I'm saying that thinking that there
are NO dangers is incorrect. I'm saying to practice defensive driving
at all time instead of relying on some illusion of control or some
statistics. Argue against that if you like but stop arguing against
what you say that I say. This started because I said that you have
to be aware that the truck MAY NOT STOP. You seem to be claiming
that that isn't the case because you've never seen it and statistically
it won't happen.

So is letting the truck go by with inches to spare at best safer than
taking the lane? Or will you stop where you can get off the road, and
wait for a gap in traffic before riding that section? (Where I cross an
overpass regularly with a shoulder less than 2 feet wide, this could
mean waiting for hours.)


Better than having the truck run over me? Remember, we're talking about
a truck that doesn't see me or isn't going to stop. Maybe he's texting.


If that's the case, you are going to be ground meat whichever part of
the road you are using, since the truck will only have 9" each side in
the lane.


In which case I'm getting out of the way.

The fact that this kind of collision is very rare demonstrates that
not being seen at all is also very rare. whereas being clipped and
knocked off to the side, or being forced to dive for the shoulder (if
there is one), pavement (sidewalk to usians) or verge is relatively
common if you invite drivers to pass by squeezing into the side.


I'm not sure about how rare. We lost several here this year from being
rear ended. But anyway, there are all sorts of possibilities. My point
is that you can't make some arbitrary statement like Frank is making
that will always be true. It depends on the situation. I don't think
there are any newbies here. I think most of us don't have a problem
riding our bikes.


Frank dreamed up some scenario so that he could ridicule people and call
them cowards skulking in the ditches. I asked what he'd do if the truck
wasn't stopping. Apparently he'd stay in the center of the lane, in the
full knowledge that the truck would eventually stop because
statistically, there aren't many rear end collisions between trucks and
bikes.

What I would do is take the side of the road and throw bricks at the ****er.

And if the trucker is genuinely that aggressive, that could be
regarded as self-defence.
But drivers who are so aggressive as to force you off the road are
very rare.


They are fortunately very rare but unfortunately some do exist and
taking the lane isn't going to work. I posted just one example that
happened to me this season where staying in the center of the lane would
have been a bad idea.


snip

Defensive driving teaches you to assume that the other guy is going to
do the wrong thing and to be ready for it. Ignoring the speeding truck
behind you because you are in control of the lane and statistics say he
will stop is not very defensive.


Defensive driving also teaches that putting yourself in a position to
be seen is a considerable benefit.


Sure. Maybe you can explain to me how being a foot to the left makes
me more visible to the truck, but I agree with that. In fact, my first
response to Frank's "pop quiz" was that I would make sure that I was
visible and if not...

But it doesn't tell you that you can control anything. In fact, it
tells you to be prepared for unexpected behavior. Like don't pull
out in front of a car with his signal on until you know that he's
actually turning.
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