On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 8:27:05 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-03-15 17:55, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, March 15, 2018 at 1:16:28 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-03-15 12:31, Duane wrote:
On 15/03/2018 12:30 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/15/2018 11:23 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/15/2018 8:47 AM, Duane wrote:
On 14/03/2018 9:09 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 08:36:45 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

If you provide proper infrastructure they will come:

That's the second time this week that I've cackled aloud
while sitting at the computer.

I don't *do* that sort of thing.


I rarely use segregated paths but there is a ride I like to
do from my house in Montreal West Island area to the old
port. It's ~100k and really nice. About 80k of it is on
bike paths. These paths follow the river and then the
Lachine canal so there are basically no intersections.Â
Along the canal where the path crosses city streets the
path has under or overpasses.

Here's the thing. I take the day off work on my birthday
and do this ride with some friends because there's no one
on the paths outside of the commute hours. At commute
time it's too crowded. On weekends and holidays it's
packed.

So I guess my point is that if they make these things
people use them. In Montreal, a lot of people use them.Â
Whether or not they make sense for commuters is another
story. And group riding on bike paths is a bad idea in
any case if the paths aren't empty.

Most of us probably enjoy a segregated path that's
well-maintained, scenic, and mostly empty. Probably few of us
enjoy a MUP when it's seeing heavy use. And with good reason!
With widely varying users, narrow spaces and a "no rules"
environment, movements are often chaotic.

So Joerg should lobby for paths that will be unpopular,
because those make for the best riding. Of course, that's a
tough sell. Can you imagine asking for tax money for a new
freeway, by saying "It will be great! Hardly anyone will use
it!"

Nationwide, only a tiny percentage of these facilities can be
justified as shifting mode share from cars to bikes. Despite
the cherry-picked examples, most miles of MUP connect nowhere
to nowhere, for obvious reasons.

So almost all are linear parks, even though they're "sold" as
being transportation facilities. They should be paid for from
park taxes, not federal or state transportation tax dollars.


Some citizens use and appreciate them, just not for cycling:
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=assault+on...th&t=hg&ia=web


Well my point was that even though some of us don't use crowded
segregated paths, the fact that they are crowded indicates that
many people do use them.


Last Sunday it was a joy to see a very full paved section of the
El Dorado Trail from Placerville to Camino (California). It seems
that the New Year's resolutions of many people have stuck this
year.

Yeah, we can all complain about having to slow down for kids, dogs
or slow riders. Yet for some reason cyclists who complain about
that do not complain if they spend minutes in slow traffic behind a
crawling conga line of trucks.

I complain if I have to sit in slow traffic, but the beauty of being
on a bike is that I rarely have to do that, except where passing is
impossible. Bicycles may permissibly pass on the right when safe in
Oregon. I sit in traffic in the mornings, but I'm still making
better time than the cars and passing on either side when possible
and safe.


Until some day a passenger in an Uber or Lyft vehicle suddenly decides
he'll walk the rest and swings the door open with gusto.

I also pass on the right but then at slow speed and not like crazy
lane-splitting motorcyclists.



I see it this way: Every slow down is followed by an acceleration
event and that builds muscle. Plus I might get to pet a dog or
encourage a kid on a tricycle to keep on mashing the pedals. It
means a lot to them when an adult says "Good job!".

Out of curiosity, do you have kids?


Unfortunately not.


... Half of them will think you're a
creep or just in their way. The other half might think you're mildly
amusing. Kids are accustomed to hearing "good job" -- little Jimmy
on the trike probably hears it ten times a day. It's not like he's
going to ride over to his parents and say, "geepers, mom and dad,
that creepy man over there said I did a good job! That makes me feel
so good! It means a lot to me!"


My experience is different. Mostly it elicited a big smile, maybe
because this did not come from a parent or close relative. Also, in the
more rural regions of America kids are often brought up the
old-fashioned way, with proper expectations of them and without
pampering or excessive praise.

Rural? Cameron Park? https://www.trulia.com/p/ca/cameron-...82--2085622330 I'm sure the milk cows are around back.

It's also good to praise a horse or a dog for good trail etiquette. They
often notice it favorably and it costs the cyclist nothing. One rider
thanked me saying "Sam really likes that".

Yes, because the owner can read the horse's mind. I'm going to start an institute with the sole purpose of stamping out anthropomorphism. It prevents us from really understanding animals. https://www.marketingfirst.co.nz/wp-...-dogs-hear.jpg



... In reality, dealing with kids on
trikes on a MUP is usually just a matter of giving them a wide berth.


I do that regardless.


It's kind of like dealing with squirrels -- well, strike that. I'll
run over squirrels.


I don't like hitting animals, ever. Couldn't avoid running over some
though, squirrels and ... rattlesnakes. Once almost a deer but he'd have
won.

Yah, I'm not aiming for the squirrels, but I'm certainly not going over the bars for them -- not unless they get stuck in my spokes.

Linear parks are fine and some can be useful travel routes for bikes,
but mixing bikes and walkers always results in a sub-optimal
experience for both -- particularly when you have parents with
walkers, dogs and kids on trikes (common around here) and sometimes
steep grades. I walk and ride the same local trail, and descending
bikes are a menace. I always take the adjacent road when on a bike.


Many of our routes are not park routes but for cyclists with a purpose,
folks who commute or have another set destination like I often do. Many
bike path started to flourish in this area around 10 years ago and
initially pedestrians walked willy-nilly. Now they largely stick to the
rule "walk left" which makes things easy. These paths connect
residential areas to business parks and I often cycle through on of
those. Lunchtime walkers are almost professionals when it comes to trail
etiquette.

Like I said, some of these routes provide valuable options for riders -- but they are options. Roads are the rule, and people need to learn to ride on roads -- and everybody needs to learn the rules of the road for his or her state.

-- Jay Beattie.