On Thursday, June 18, 2020 at 3:05:52 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, June 18, 2020 at 10:46:04 AM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski writes:

On 6/17/2020 8:34 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 3:11:02 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/17/2020 2:48 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 10:57:18 AM UTC-7, wrote:

Was it recently as "We hold these truths to be self evident, that
all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator
with certain in alienable rights."?

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a
nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these
liberties are the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country
when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep
forever." - Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia?

"The right to freedom being the gift of God Almighty, it is not
in the power of man to alienate this gift and voluntarily become
a slave." - Samuel Adams, The Rights of the Colonists, 1772?

"God's hand was on me. God protected me and kept me through the
battle." - George Washington

"In the Name of the most Holy and undivided Trinity." - Treaty of
Paris (1783)

"With hearts fortified with these animating reflections, we most
solemnly before God and the world Declare, that, exerting the
utmost energy of those powers which our beneficent Creator hath
graciously bestowed upon us, the arms we have been compelled by
our enemies to assume, we will, in defiance of every hazard, with
unabating firmness and perseverance, employ for the preservation
of our liberties - being with one mind resolved to die FREEMEN
rather than to live SLAVES." - Declaration of the Causes and
Necessity of Taking Up Arms, July 5, 1775

Jay, it does not appear that you could make a very strong
argument in a court of law. After WW II there was such an
upwelling of religion that my father-in-law founded 26 churches
himself and every one of them is still running. You have never
seen a bad day in your life, one in which you had to wonder what
you would have to say upon meeting your creator, so you can
pretend he doesn't exist until that day.


Yes, religion was big in the colonial US, but my point is that the
founding fathers created a secular federal government. Jefferson,
your first cited author, was a Deist and did not believe Jesus was
the son of God. Jefferson was the guy pushing for separation of
church and state and was even called an infidel.

Of course, there are various opinions about what Jefferson
believed. You're correct about his thoughts on Jesus, but "Deist"
currently implies some things he probably didn't accept. And then
you have to account for his (like anyone's) changing beliefs over
time.

I suppose the whole Sally Hemings thing wasn't too helpful for him either.

I doubt very much that we can ever understand what really went on
there. Relationships are incredibly complex in modern times with
modern mores. They were no less complex back then.

Your religious beliefs are no business of the government, and vice versa.

OK, something I don't quite understand: Among many other "sins,"
the government defines murder as being its business. But as I
understand it, there are religious sects that have condoned murder,
or at least killing of certain individuals; and not just in easy
cases like self defense. This has been true in at least some
situations for at least some Christian, Islamic, Hindu and other
sects or sub-sects.

But of course, there's disagreement. Most religions do not condone
murder. Some oppose even capital punishment.

So if our government says "You can't murder people," isn't that
adopting a certain religious viewpoint and disregarding another?

We could ask (or could have asked) the same question regarding
stores opening on Sunday, liquor sales, polygamy, some types of
gambling, child marriage, homosexual acts and more.

Isn't "good" vs. "bad" often a judgment based on religious views?

Yes, but that's not establishing religion or dictating how we
worship -- or what we worship, at least not in the First Amendment
sense. ... Most criminal laws fit with secular moral/ethical codes.

I think you're sidestepping the question. What's the source of the
secular moral/ethical codes?

What's the source of any human behavior? Either it's God or it's not --
there is no reason to separate moral/ethical codes from anything else.

My head hurts. I'm going back to considering whether to grease my tapers.

-- Jay Beattie.

Or find someone else to grease them for you?