On Monday, December 3, 2018 at 10:54:19 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Monday, December 3, 2018 at 10:39:07 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Monday, December 3, 2018 at 5:26:06 PM UTC+1, wrote:
On Monday, December 3, 2018 at 6:12:54 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Monday, December 3, 2018 at 1:23:55 AM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:


With his history of CF disasters, TK should be buying the most reliable products on the market sold by domestic sellers with domestic insurers. Try recovering a personal injury settlement or judgment from a Chinese manufacturer who sells direct -- or its insurer in China. Justify the increased price as an insurance premium.

That is also what surprized me. How can a person with that history and the following rants about CF buy cheap Chinese CF stuff. Unbelievable. You can buy Pinnarello frame for 350 euro, looking exactly the same as the originals a probably used in the same moulds, but the measurements showed completely different values. With CF is all about lay ups, used preps and quality control. The fact that something is produced in the same country (China) doesn't mean anything. I stay far far far away from CF with an unknown pedigree as you call it. Tom should do the same IMO. CF rims for clinchers are difficult hence their price, CF rims for tubeless even more difficult and than buying cheap Chinese stuff? WTF is he thinking...




Assuming that the wheels TK bought were unbranded versions of reputable wheels made in a Chinese factory, that means that the factory was knocking them off and stealing its customer's IP -- not something we want to promote. Assuming that the customer is actually policing its IP and its factory, then the knock-off is probably coming from a different factory and is of unknown quality. Now, there have been some very good knock-offs. Phil Knight busted a factory for knocking off Nikes and then hired them because the knock-offs were so good. However, there is no way of knowing in advance what knock-offs are really good and which aren't -- and unlike shoes, you can't see the "stitching" and materials and workmanship of a CF rim. For all you know, there are giant voids and a ****ty lay-up. OTOH, it might be O..K. stuff, but if I had landed on my head a bunch of time because of broken CF bits, O.K. would not be good enough.

+1

Lou

Lou - Where did you see this bike made out of Pinarello molds that had completely different measurements? How did you measure it? My guess is that as usual it is an urban myth.

It was in TOUR magazin the most respectable and leading bike magazine here in Europe. They measured it by their standards by which every bike frame is tested. I truly believe they are the only independent bike magazine I know. When it is crap they tell it is crap. They critized/opposed to Shimano road disk brakes for heavy riders and still have reservations. The difference between the real Pinarello and the fake was astonishing. Both made in China.
The Chinese are very capable and hardworking people but like anywhere else you get what you pay for. I know enough examples in my lie of work. If you pay crap prices you get eventually (not in the beginning) crap products or someone is exploited or both. Even the Chinese have to make a living. You have to keep that always in mind.

Lou

Well, I suppose you can believe what you like. I would have to read that article to even pass any opinion on it.

It's like the $12 angle grinder from Harbor Freight. At some point, the price is a giant red flag.

I do think there are some bargains to be had. Joerg likes the Chinese brake pads, and there are somethings sold by the Chinese that you just can't get elsewhere -- like these: https://tinyurl.com/y93bccln I'd buy things like a low-use tool e.g. a bleed kit or something for a one-off hub bearing job -- although I'd probably buy US/German/Japanese bearings.

I'd be interested in hearing about true Chinese bargains. I got some Vuelta wheels cheap from Nashbar for my commuter, and they're probably a standard Chinese factory item -- a mildly aero 28 hole aluminum rim, aero spokes and a Formula-ish hub. Same old same old -- decent but nothing earth shattering. Spending more might have gotten me a better set of bearings or freehub, but maybe not. On sale, they were a true bargain.


-- Jay Beattie.