On Wednesday, June 27, 2018 at 4:56:33 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-27 14:55, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/27/2018 3:48 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-27 09:39, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/27/2018 10:24 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-26 17:50, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/26/2018 6:40 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-26 13:34, sms wrote:


[...]

You also have the issue that, despite the astr-turf YIMBY groups,
that
families with children generally want to live in single family
homes.


So do we. We also did in Europe and could walk to the dance club, to
numerous pubs, grocery stores, railroad station, almost everywhere.

How old were those European towns? When were they founded?


Doesn't matter.

I think it does matter.


Why?


Because, as I already said:

I think there are different cultural or social expectations in Europe,
most of which are influenced by history. Europe seems to generally have
much more restrictive land use policies, and those policies seem to
promote "infill" development.

Example: In Britain, in Austria, etc. when we bicycle toured, I was
struck by the practicality of city limits. There seemed to be a boundary
around most towns, with apartments, houses, shops etc. on one side and
little but fields and forests on the other side. We saw almost no rural
convenience stores or gas stations, for example. People have been living
close for hundreds of years, and they're used to such a system.


Except that such difference are not truly there. Think back to when your
relatives came from Europe. Probably not very wealthy, they likely
settled in an east coast town very similar to a European one.

Sprawl set in a bit earlier in America but not by much. The few years
difference is because WW-II destroyed much of Europe but nothing inside
the US. Europe had sprawl already before America as we know it existed
and that can be witnessed in the UK, for example.



It sure did not look like that to me and I grew up in Europe, lived
there for decades. An example in Austria:

http://www.cipra.org/de/dossiers/rau...192dc6c65.jpeg


Here is the Reussebene, Switzerland as an example form another country:

http://www.wohnblog.ch/wp-content/up...eb-800x504.jpg


This is in the UK:

https://www.groundsure.com/wp-conten..._437777299.jpg


In each of your examples, I see what looks like dense development
surrounded by rural fields.


Get your glasses and look again :-)


... And Reussebene doesn't come up on Google
Maps. Perhaps if you gave the locations, we could look at the satellite
views and compare them with similar American towns.


Sorry, but ever since they botched the font sizes Google Maps has become
nearly useless to me. Can't read a thing. I have lived in Europe for
decades and live in the US for decades. There is not much difference WRT
sprawl with two exceptions:

1. The property sizes are a tad smaller in Europe but this is
compensated for by more people per square mile needing a home.

2. They have less or no zoning laws. Unfortunately we do, and that's
where the problem is.


Here, we have a pioneer mentality. The reflex is to colonize new land,
to take possession of our own acreage, and to fight any attempt to limit
what we can do with it.

So if a realty company wants to build 30 houses, of _course_ they will
buy a corn field a few miles out of town along some farm road. The land
is cheaper out there, and there are fewer zoning rules. They'll put in
twisty residential streets with only one outlet onto that farm road.
They won't bother with sidewalks, because nobody will use them.

The residents will feel like pioneers, so proud of having a new,
all-white neighborhood out in "the country." But someone will eventually
say "Hey, I can put a gas station and convenience store at their corner
and make a killing." So the parking lot lights begin to wash away the
night sky, and the traffic increases.

Soon another realty company builds another mushroom development nearby,
which triggers a little shopping plaza, and on it goes. It all happens
at low density, because everyone wants an acre of lawn to mow.


If only it was like that. The reality is that if you want a little
strip mall or even just a neighborhood pub then city hall will say
"NOOO!" because it's all zoned residential.

I'm talking about "development" extending out into former farm country,
specifically because there is no zoning out there. These are places
where there is no city hall, because they are not in a city.


There will be a community services district or similar structure in
place, prontissimo, and they will lord it over the people. That's also
how it is where I lived.

"Lord it over the people?" You mean that there is a governmental structure adopted by the residents that is applicable to people who move in with notice of that structure? My God, that is so repressive!

Everything you needed to know about your community was available in the CC&Rs and the CSD filings BEFORE YOU MOVED IN. Don't buy into a synthetic town and then complain that it's a synthetic town.

You could always go full Kaczynski and live in a 10 X 10 shack on some forgotten BLM land in the Badlands and not live in an airpark/golf course community with CC&Rs up the butt. I'm sure you would enjoy that. Plenty of room for beer brewing.

-- Jay Beattie.