On 2/21/2018 10:36 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-20 19:00, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/20/2018 8:30 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/20/2018 2:54 PM, Joerg wrote:

It's not that American bike facility planners never mess
up but after having lived long enough in Germany, the
Netherland and the US I can rightfully say that the German
bike facility planners are the worst of the three groups.
By far.

We've just been looking at examples of American facilities
that did not work and British facilities that did not work.
Jay has talked at length about the faults with many of
Portland's bike facilities. (Their bike boxes, installed to
reduce right hooks, instead increased right hooks greatly.)
We've talked at length about Stevenage and Milton Keynes in
England, towns purpose-built with state of the art separate
bike facilities that don't work. I recall reading about an
Ottowa, Canada cycle track that scored three car-bike
crashes in its first three weeks. A Columbus, Ohio cycle
track (on Summit Street) had 11 car-bike crashes in its
first year of operation. The same stretch of road had only 6
car-bike crashes in the four years prior to the beginning of
construction. The "bicycle highways" through London
generated a cluster of crossing conflict fatalities a few
years ago.

Joerg, don't pretend it's just incompetent designers in
America, or Germany, or Canada, or England. There are too
many examples. Basic physics and fundamental principles of
traffic movement argue against many of the designs you tout.
And green paint or copious warning signs can't prevent
crashes caused by illogical traffic interactions.


+1


Andrew, you are in the perfect position because you run a bike shop and
undoubtedly 95% of people coming through the door are cyclists
(discount the grandparents buying a tricycle for li'l Joey). What if
you'd ask every one of them for a week or so whether they prefer riding
on bike paths or on roads?

What a nonsense response. Even if every one said "I'd prefer riding on a
bike path," what would that prove? That we must build bike paths
absolutely everywhere so they never have to ride on a road? It should be
obvious that such a thing is impossible. And if you build the typical
American bike path for them, it will probably increase the amount of
driving, because most path users drive to and from the paths in their cars.

Your question, Joerg, is like asking people in a grocery store "Would
you rather taste this ice cream, or these mashed potatoes?" We know how
the majority would answer. But basing dietary policy on it would result
in a grossly fat and unhealthy population, increasing societal medical
expense.

Which is the same effect as your message that "Roads are dangerous,
don't ride a bike until you have a separate bike path."

--
- Frank Krygowski