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  #51  
Old January 12th 18, 01:32 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,723
Default DIY China

On 1/11/2018 8:43 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/11/2018 8:54 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:

As for value, the Chinese offer superb value
to those who know what they want and how to
evaluate it. Much of what you buy in America
under familiar brand names is made in China.


Here, virtually all tools sold are made in
China (i.e., the PRC). I have a torque wrench
that is also made in China, only in Taiwan.
I also have a (new) revolving punch that is
made in Germany. Other than that, all my
Swedish tools (e.g., Bacho), German
tools (Heyco), Japanese tools, socialist Poland
tools, etc., are old, from the
"pre-China" period.

Also clothes are often, but not always, made in
the PRC. HH, the famous Norwegian brand of
winter clothes, have there stuff made there, as
do many, many others.

Even tho they seem to make all the stuff for
the western contractors and DIYers alike, one
thing I wonder is how much of a DIY culture
they themselves have?

My father, who has a Chinese wife, told me
about their shopping palaces and how shopping
is the key pass-time for people there.
And apparently the biggest building in the
world isn't the Pentagon like in the 50s but
a Chinese mall! So I asked him if he could get
tools as well? And he said he never saw any!

And I have met many Chinese people during my
computer years at the university and by the
look of their bodies and they way they carry
them around, compared to westerners - N.B.
also university people - from the looks of it
the Chinese guys and girls never used a hand
tools or did any physical labor whatsoever,
and some of them, surprisingly, I don't think
ever did any sports or dancing or
whatever either.

Obviously their skill of manufacturing stuff is
beyond doubt, but I wonder if it is limited to
the people doing it, and not a reflection of
their entire society as it was during the
European/American industrial era?


There are some interesting ideas about the evolution of a
nation's manufacturing capability at
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/shimano333.html

Start reading at "Background: The International Bicycle Cycle"

The author seems to have the opinion that the skill in
manufacturing is not inborn, but is brought in by companies
from other countries looking for cheaper labor and cheaper
manufacturing in general. I think that's a reasonable
explanation for China's manufacturing growth.



Let's hobble our manufacturers with endless licenses,
permits, fines, fees, inspections and various impedimenta
then mandate high labor costs, obfuscate those costs with
additional employer expenses, insanely inflate
transportation and energy costs, throw in a frenetic
plaintiff's bar and see what happens.

Ya think chinese vendors could beat the price?

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


Ads
  #52  
Old January 12th 18, 01:37 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,723
Default DIY China

On 1/11/2018 9:59 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Friday, January 12, 2018 at 2:43:44 AM UTC, Frank Krygowski wrote:
the skill in manufacturing is
not inborn, but is brought in by companies from other countries looking
for cheaper labor and cheaper manufacturing in general. I think that's a
reasonable explanation for China's manufacturing growth.

- Frank Krygowski


Do you have to be so racist, Krygowski? It was people like you who claimed that the Japanese were copycats; so do tell, how come the Japanese now own so much of American manufacturing, entertainment, automobiles and other industries?

Now you're making the same dumb mistake with the Chinese, who wore silk clothes and managed a great civilization by written instructions when your ancestors were running around naked in what is now central Europe, were illiterate (which I suspect you still are, given your slack learning progress), probably murdered and ate each other, in short were uncivilized and uncultured.

I wonder how soon the Chinese will follow the financial arc of the Japanese (they're already well past the early stages of the Japanese and Taiwanese industrial arc) and use their trade balances to start buying up America. Pretty soon, I think, if your racist stupidity is at all widely spread.

If you had any brains, Krygowski, you would do some reading and inform yourself. But I don't suppose you will. Instead you'll jerk yourself up with some smartarse comment, which will fall flat, as always, because you're a lamebrain, as demonstrated in your fond belief that the Chinese have no originality or organizing ability.

You poor, foolish man.



Aside from your argument, the example of Han or Chin silk is
trivial and you ought to know better. Sumer (Syria/Iraq)
hosted the world's first walled cities and writing; how's
that civilization thing going today?

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #53  
Old January 12th 18, 01:40 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,723
Default DIY China

On 1/11/2018 10:35 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Friday, January 12, 2018 at 1:54:04 AM UTC, Emanuel Berg wrote of the Chinese:
Obviously their skill of manufacturing stuff is
beyond doubt, but I wonder if it is limited to
the people doing it, and not a reflection of
their entire society as it was during the
European/American industrial era?


Speak to an economic historian at your university, or read the newspapers or the tracts of 1740's through to the defeat of Napoleon, or speeches in Hansard, or novels even (start with Jane Austen), or read Captain Gronow's Diary and discover that at the very top of society they weren't even aware in any meaningful sense of the change underway, and you will discover rather smartly that the Industrial Revolution left large parts of the country and society untouched, was exceedingly unpopular with the usual crowd (who presently style themselves as "progressives"), and was popular only with the class whose supposedly idyllic life as sharecroppers and laborers on farms the "progressives" claimed it ruined. Your idea that the whole society was involved is miles from the truth in Britain, and I think pretty unlikely to have happened anywhere else. I'm an economist and, though I studied economic history for several years, my specialties are demographics and applied economics at the interf

ace of mass motivation; I made my reputation, after academe, in investment banking and advertising, where such skills are more fittingly rewarded. Generally speaking, though any properly trained economist of course knows something of the economic history of other European countries, especially France and Germany, and the US, the most intensively studied Industrial Revolution is the British one, because it led the way, and basically all the analysis around the world, but especially from the Teutonic and Scandinavian economists (Austrian economists were for a long time the most important), centered on Britain, in large part also because Marx and Engels, the leading critics of laissez faire capitalism, settled there and made the mills their subject of study, mainly because Engels owned and operated a mill and thus had access to its records. (By way of contrast, agrarian or farm economists begin by studying the French thinkers grouped as "Les Economistes", because their analysis proceede
d from the fruit of the land upwards and outwards.)

Andre Jute
https://www.amazon.com/Its-Economy-S.../dp/B0779MGB47



+1

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #54  
Old January 12th 18, 06:37 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,271
Default DIY China

On 1/12/2018 8:32 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/11/2018 8:43 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/11/2018 8:54 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:

As for value, the Chinese offer superb value
to those who know what they want and how to
evaluate it. Much of what you buy in America
under familiar brand names is made in China.

Here, virtually all tools sold are made in
China (i.e., the PRC). I have a torque wrench
that is also made in China, only in Taiwan.
I also have a (new) revolving punch that is
made in Germany. Other than that, all my
Swedish tools (e.g., Bacho), German
tools (Heyco), Japanese tools, socialist Poland
tools, etc., are old, from the
"pre-China" period.

Also clothes are often, but not always, made in
the PRC. HH, the famous Norwegian brand of
winter clothes, have there stuff made there, as
do many, many others.

Even tho they seem to make all the stuff for
the western contractors and DIYers alike, one
thing I wonder is how much of a DIY culture
they themselves have?

My father, who has a Chinese wife, told me
about their shopping palaces and how shopping
is the key pass-time for people there.
And apparently the biggest building in the
world isn't the Pentagon like in the 50s but
a Chinese mall! So I asked him if he could get
tools as well? And he said he never saw any!

And I have met many Chinese people during my
computer years at the university and by the
look of their bodies and they way they carry
them around, compared to westerners - N.B.
also university people - from the looks of it
the Chinese guys and girls never used a hand
tools or did any physical labor whatsoever,
and some of them, surprisingly, I don't think
ever did any sports or dancing or
whatever either.

Obviously their skill of manufacturing stuff is
beyond doubt, but I wonder if it is limited to
the people doing it, and not a reflection of
their entire society as it was during the
European/American industrial era?


There are some interesting ideas about the evolution of a
nation's manufacturing capability at
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/shimano333.html

Start reading at "Background: The International Bicycle Cycle"

The author seems to have the opinion that the skill in
manufacturing is not inborn, but is brought in by companies
from other countries looking for cheaper labor and cheaper
manufacturing in general. I think that's a reasonable
explanation for China's manufacturing growth.



Let's hobble our manufacturers with endless licenses, permits, fines,
fees, inspections and various impedimenta then mandate high labor costs,
obfuscate those costs with additional employer expenses, insanely
inflate transportation and energy costs, throw in a frenetic plaintiff's
bar and see what happens.

Ya think chinese vendors could beat the price?


Seems to me the migration of production from Britain to the U.S. to
Japan to Korea to China must have had driving mechanisms beyond those
you listed, which are often claimed by most radical "free marketers."

And if those influences were actually responsible in migration after
migration, then perhaps they're part of the natural order and thus
unstoppable.

I agree there is certainly some abuse of permitting processes, licensing
requirements, etc. There is imperfection in every system. There is abuse
acting in the other direction too, artificially suppressing wages.
(Perfect justice is at least as rare as a full-time job at Wal-Mart.)

But regarding just one of those: I wish "inspections" (by OSHA) had
existed back in the 1940s. I might have gotten to meet at least one of
my grandfathers.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #55  
Old January 12th 18, 07:53 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 185
Default handlebar

On 11/01/2018 8:27 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Duane wrote:

What are is your interest in the material?
Weight? Strength? Rust?


To understand why I hear all the time they
break while my intuition tells me this has
never been even close to happening to me.


Over a lot of years of cycling using steel, aluminum and CF bars I've
never broken one either. I think Jay is the only one I've heard of
breaking a bar where a crash wasn't involved. I don't climb as much as
he does though.

  #56  
Old January 13th 18, 12:11 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,725
Default handlebar

On Thursday, January 11, 2018 at 3:27:45 PM UTC-5, duane wrote:
On 11/01/2018 3:12 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Duane wrote:

Depends on the iron content in the stainless
among other things. Some are magnetic and
some are not.


OK, at least the A4 stainless steel boltware
I have isn't magnetic.

So now we're at:

aluminium - nonmagnetic;

steel - magnetic, only

stainless steel - sometimes magnetic

How can anything be easier than using a magnet?
Well, it seems how easy something is to do
isn't the only parameter...


What are is your interest in the material? Weight? Strength? Rust?


I think he's just trolling. all his threads run the same way.

CHeers
  #57  
Old January 13th 18, 01:52 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,721
Default DIY China

On Friday, January 12, 2018 at 1:32:32 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/11/2018 8:43 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/11/2018 8:54 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:

As for value, the Chinese offer superb value
to those who know what they want and how to
evaluate it. Much of what you buy in America
under familiar brand names is made in China.

Here, virtually all tools sold are made in
China (i.e., the PRC). I have a torque wrench
that is also made in China, only in Taiwan.
I also have a (new) revolving punch that is
made in Germany. Other than that, all my
Swedish tools (e.g., Bacho), German
tools (Heyco), Japanese tools, socialist Poland
tools, etc., are old, from the
"pre-China" period.

Also clothes are often, but not always, made in
the PRC. HH, the famous Norwegian brand of
winter clothes, have there stuff made there, as
do many, many others.

Even tho they seem to make all the stuff for
the western contractors and DIYers alike, one
thing I wonder is how much of a DIY culture
they themselves have?

My father, who has a Chinese wife, told me
about their shopping palaces and how shopping
is the key pass-time for people there.
And apparently the biggest building in the
world isn't the Pentagon like in the 50s but
a Chinese mall! So I asked him if he could get
tools as well? And he said he never saw any!

And I have met many Chinese people during my
computer years at the university and by the
look of their bodies and they way they carry
them around, compared to westerners - N.B.
also university people - from the looks of it
the Chinese guys and girls never used a hand
tools or did any physical labor whatsoever,
and some of them, surprisingly, I don't think
ever did any sports or dancing or
whatever either.

Obviously their skill of manufacturing stuff is
beyond doubt, but I wonder if it is limited to
the people doing it, and not a reflection of
their entire society as it was during the
European/American industrial era?


There are some interesting ideas about the evolution of a
nation's manufacturing capability at
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/shimano333.html

Start reading at "Background: The International Bicycle Cycle"

The author seems to have the opinion that the skill in
manufacturing is not inborn, but is brought in by companies
from other countries looking for cheaper labor and cheaper
manufacturing in general. I think that's a reasonable
explanation for China's manufacturing growth.



Let's hobble our manufacturers with endless licenses,
permits, fines, fees, inspections and various impedimenta
then mandate high labor costs, obfuscate those costs with
additional employer expenses, insanely inflate
transportation and energy costs, throw in a frenetic
plaintiff's bar and see what happens.

Ya think chinese vendors could beat the price?

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


Chinese ex-factory prices are rising fast. I very bought some very large squirrel brushes and the average price was 12 Euro at my door. They're very nicely made, but less than a handful of years ago they were around a fiver each, whereas the price for European production over the same timespan has increased only from about €40 to €45 - 50 per unit. Similarly, years ago I bought a wooden box of Chinese brushes from the very best factory for about thirty bucks from a Chinese brush maker who was given the brushes as payment in kind; the other day I saw the same brushes advertised for near enough a couple of hundred bucks (still a bargain compared to European prices, but probably not for long).

Surprisingly, what screws Chinese trade with the West is their rotten infrastructure and, inferred, poor attitude of transport system workers. Aliexpress permits you to track a parcel from picking off the shelf and packaging of the order to your door in tiny steps. What struck me is that days or weeks could pass while the parcel sat at the vendor waiting for the Chinese Post Office to come pick it up, and then more days or weeks being shunted around pointlessly, and then at the airport more of the same, and then spend apparently weeks in the air -- more likely stuck in a warehouse where the scanner doesn't work -- whereas once it reaches a destination in a place where the post office has been privatized, say Dublin, you can bet money it will be delivered to you the next morning even if you live deep in the countryside. At each of these stages there is clearly Chinese overmanning complete with forms to be filled in, including one for export customs clearance. WTF? (And I complained when my letter to the driver license bureau in Johannesburg was answered by three separate important-sounding executives all eager to help renew a license I used only when I was caught speeding.) I saw the same wretched overmanning-drag in Russia when I lectured there in the Brezhnev years, trying to help them use their excellent statistics (it is no accident that my statistical mentor was a Russian) for better purposes than telling lies, and in the socialized parts of Africa. This is a root problem, and the attitude that goes with it will not be changed overnight, regardless of what industrial miracle the leadership might dream of, and entrepreneurs strive to create on the ground. A routine delivery from China takes six weeks and if anything goes wrong, up to twelve weeks. That's not the near-instant gratification that Amazon is using to bond Westerners to it.

Andre Jute
From small acorns do large oaks grow
  #58  
Old January 13th 18, 01:56 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,721
Default handlebar

On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 12:11:32 AM UTC, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, January 11, 2018 at 3:27:45 PM UTC-5, duane wrote:
On 11/01/2018 3:12 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Duane wrote:

Depends on the iron content in the stainless
among other things. Some are magnetic and
some are not.

OK, at least the A4 stainless steel boltware
I have isn't magnetic.

So now we're at:

aluminium - nonmagnetic;

steel - magnetic, only

stainless steel - sometimes magnetic

How can anything be easier than using a magnet?
Well, it seems how easy something is to do
isn't the only parameter...


What are is your interest in the material? Weight? Strength? Rust?


I think he's just trolling. all his threads run the same way.

Cheers



You have are obsessed with trolling, Blot. All that "trolling" means is that a poster disagrees with the majority view of a group, and that the dumb sputterers in the group pretend to be offended to give them something to say. Recognize you portrait?

Andre Jute
Incisive analysis
  #59  
Old January 13th 18, 02:21 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,721
Default DIY China

On Friday, January 12, 2018 at 1:38:02 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/11/2018 9:59 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Friday, January 12, 2018 at 2:43:44 AM UTC, Frank Krygowski wrote:
the skill in manufacturing is
not inborn, but is brought in by companies from other countries looking
for cheaper labor and cheaper manufacturing in general. I think that's a
reasonable explanation for China's manufacturing growth.

- Frank Krygowski


Do you have to be so racist, Krygowski? It was people like you who claimed that the Japanese were copycats; so do tell, how come the Japanese now own so much of American manufacturing, entertainment, automobiles and other industries?

Now you're making the same dumb mistake with the Chinese, who wore silk clothes and managed a great civilization by written instructions when your ancestors were running around naked in what is now central Europe, were illiterate (which I suspect you still are, given your slack learning progress), probably murdered and ate each other, in short were uncivilized and uncultured.

I wonder how soon the Chinese will follow the financial arc of the Japanese (they're already well past the early stages of the Japanese and Taiwanese industrial arc) and use their trade balances to start buying up America.. Pretty soon, I think, if your racist stupidity is at all widely spread.

If you had any brains, Krygowski, you would do some reading and inform yourself. But I don't suppose you will. Instead you'll jerk yourself up with some smartarse comment, which will fall flat, as always, because you're a lamebrain, as demonstrated in your fond belief that the Chinese have no originality or organizing ability.

You poor, foolish man.



Aside from your argument, the example of Han or Chin silk is
trivial and you ought to know better. Sumer (Syria/Iraq)
hosted the world's first walled cities and writing; how's
that civilization thing going today?

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


Trivial that to Will and Ariel Durant. Tell that to Ernst Gombrich. Tell that to Jacob Bronowski. Or you could just contemplate the processes involved in the production of silk and you'll see "trivial" isn't the word for it. Think about the Silk Road and what passed on it.

As for Sumeria, all empires fall eventually. Vide the Roman, the British, the Soviet, eventually but not for a while yet the American (amazing how Trump is staying the rot, and pushing back), and after that the Chinese. Nah, I don't think the EU will get a turn; it's too self-confused and demographically suicidal.

Andre Jute
Adam Smith contemplated a pin manufactory for a good reason.
  #60  
Old January 13th 18, 02:25 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,323
Default handlebar

On 1/12/2018 11:53 AM, Duane wrote:
On 11/01/2018 8:27 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Duane wrote:

What are is your interest in the material?
Weight? Strength? Rust?


To understand why I hear all the time they
break while my intuition tells me this has
never been even close to happening to me.


Over a lot of years of cycling using steel, aluminum and CF bars I've
never broken one either.* I think Jay is the only one I've heard of
breaking a bar where a crash wasn't involved.* I don't climb as much as
he does though.


I recall a recall of Brompton aluminum handlebars that were experiencing
breakage. They got handlebars from their licensed manufacturer (Neobike)
in Taiwan to do replacements. My Bromptons are all from Neobike and were
not subject to the recall. They also were sending out reinforcement
brackets for the U of the bars.

"In Mid 1995 Brompton began to use the bars fitted to far-Eastern
Bromptons produced under licence by Neobike. These more conventional
7/8-inch bars (satin finish once again, with a raised centre section),
were found to have a better fatigue life than both the previous designs.
They are not to everyone's tastes however, being rather higher than the
earlier types, which leads people to fit quick-releases to give a lower
sportier riding position."
 




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