WHY are cyclists riding at night ?

On 10/6/2014 2:55 PM, sms wrote:
On 10/6/2014 11:14 AM, Duane wrote:
On 10/6/2014 1:02 PM, Andre Jute wrote:

snip

About dynamos and lamps as standard equipment on bikes, in Europe (not
including the UK or Ireland!) they're standard equipment on bikes that
require them, commuters, utility bikes, suchlike. The rationale for
fitting them at the factory has been well made by Scharfie in the
past, but as usual he wasn't given credit for talking sense because
the resident scum sprayed hatred all over his post: as a matter of
economics, it costs a handful of dollars, maximum, to fit a high
quality LED lamp and a high quality dynamo at the factory, and a
couple of hundred, as Jay is discovering, to do it in the aftermarket.
It would therefore make sense to fit them to all bikes, and let those
who don't want them specify a "delete option". Mandatory fitment is
another story, without necessarily the same happy outcome. The
dissatisfactions with BUMM and other German lamps stem mainly from the
restrictions forced on the manufacturers by the legislators.


Maybe this would make sense with touring or commuter bikes.

Anyway I think in general if lights at night were mandatory for the
rider, the market would increase and the price would go down.

The bicycle manufacturers need to take the lead and offer a "lighting
package" that doesn't involve buying all the bits and pieces,
separately, at retail price.

A lighting package upgrade, at the time of purchase of a new bicycle,
should cost under $100. The shop would get some dynamo wheels, plus
front and rear lamps from the bicycle manufacturer and would not make
the Keystone margins that they normally make on parts and accessories
(100%), only the normal 35-40% margin that they make a new bicycle. The
wheel cost would be the difference between the stock wheel and the
dynamo wheel, not in addition to the stock wheel. A Shimano or SP dynamo
hub would cost the bicycle manufacturer only about $10 or so more than a
regular hub.


I don't mind anything that the LBS wants to offer as an add but there's
no way I want to have them install a 100 buck light for me. I'm quite
happy with my frog lights for day use and my PB 2 watt for when it's
dark. I have two bikes and one set of lights. I would not like to have
paid for dynamos on both bikes when I don't need or want them.

Like I say, if they want to offer it as an upgrade, no problem.



None of this will ever happen. Well I should not be so cynical. A store
like REI could get their suppliers to offer something like this. It
can't be just a $1000 Breezer that has a dynamo light available. There
is so much bicycle commuting and night riding in my area that I probably
have a skewed view of what is commercially viable.


We have MEC here. They could probably offer something. As it is, Velo
Quebec is out regularly giving away cheap lights trying to get people to
at least use them at night. I don't see a big market for expensive
lighting systems at the moment.

On 10/6/2014 12:57 PM, Duane wrote:

We have MEC here. They could probably offer something. As it is, Velo
Quebec is out regularly giving away cheap lights trying to get people to
at least use them at night. I don't see a big market for expensive
lighting systems at the moment.

We have some of those light give-aways. They are typically so awful that
they are quickly lost or broken. I doubt that anyone ever buys
replacement batteries for them, they just throw them away.

On 10/6/2014 4:19 PM, sms wrote:
On 10/6/2014 12:57 PM, Duane wrote:

We have MEC here. They could probably offer something. As it is, Velo
Quebec is out regularly giving away cheap lights trying to get people to
at least use them at night. I don't see a big market for expensive
lighting systems at the moment.

We have some of those light give-aways. They are typically so awful that
they are quickly lost or broken. I doubt that anyone ever buys
replacement batteries for them, they just throw them away.







Yeah, my point if that they're trying to give away free lights to get
people to use them because many people don't. If you can't get them to
use free lights I don't think you'll get far selling them 100 dollar
plus lighting systems.

BTW, my PB 2 has batteries and I replace them as needed. My Blackburn
fleas that I use for being seen front and back lights are USB charged.
I wouldn't buy a dynamo either...

On 06/10/2014 21:23, Duane wrote:

Yeah, my point if that they're trying to give away free lights to get
people to use them because many people don't. If you can't get them to
use free lights I don't think you'll get far selling them 100 dollar
plus lighting systems.

Counterintuitively that's not necessarily the case. People treat free
stuff as if it has no value, so it dies. There's all sorts of ways to
persuade people that the more expensive kit is good for them. I'm sure
Andre can help here.

On Mon, 06 Oct 2014 14:14:42 -0400, Duane
wrote:

On 10/6/2014 1:02 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Monday, October 6, 2014 4:16:35 PM UTC+1, Duane wrote:
On 10/6/2014 9:28 AM, Andre Jute wrote:

On Saturday, October 4, 2014 5:17:04 PM UTC+1, wrote:

an evident obsession with dynamo generated electricity begs the question....



Furthermore, the dynamo is just a convenient facilitator. To jump from wanting to ride at night as a natural right of cyclists to "an evident obsession with dynamo generated electricity begs the question", indeed, but the question is: Why are cyclists, typically in America roadies, such fashion victims who take what manufacturers and dealers give them, and let it shape their riding? In this instance, just because most bikes sold in the States don't have lamps on the showroom floor doesn't mean riding at night is unnatural, it simply means that American cyclists are too supine to demand proper lamps and dynamos as standard fitments.



I can get any lights that I want, even those made in Germany, and either

install them on my bike or have the LBS install them. The LBS has

several dozen models on the rack next to the checkout counter.I have a

couple different ones depending on need that I arrange on my own. It's

not rocket science. Or at least it shouldn't be though reading through

the recent threads here, one would wonder.



Why they aren't installed on the new bikes by default I would guess has

more to do with which ones, if any the buyer wants. If I'm doing TTs

and never need to race after dark, why should I pay for a light that I

don't need? And who gets to choose which type of lights the bikes come

with?



As far as I can see, this whole thread is a straw man. This is similar

to Frank's post about people not riding at night having toy bikes. The

same old crap about the roadies versus the "serious" cyclists. It's

still crap and always has been.



I guess that there are people who are afraid to ride at night. I doubt

it's because their bikes don't have lamps. Mandating that they come

installed on all bikes doesn't make sense. Mandating that you can't

ride at night without lights makes more sense in my opinion.

Of course, you don't see the cyclists who are afraid to ride at night. But one of the worst stupidities I do see cyclist commit is riding after dark without lamps, and very often in dark clothes without any reflexives. And not even a reflector on the bike. The reflector on the bike comes on the bike by law, but the LBS routinely takes it off because it fashionable for the kids to lose it, first thing.


There I agree with you. Riding at night without lights is a problem.
And as far as the reflectors, my wife just bought a bike and realized it
didn't have any reflectors when she got it home. I went to the LBS and
had them give me some. They said that Specialized didn't supply them
but he gave me some off the shelf. I was a bit surprised as I though
the LBS just chucked them.

About dynamos and lamps as standard equipment on bikes, in Europe (not including the UK or Ireland!) they're standard equipment on bikes that require them, commuters, utility bikes, suchlike. The rationale for fitting them at the factory has been well made by Scharfie in the past, but as usual he wasn't given credit for talking sense because the resident scum sprayed hatred all over his post: as a matter of economics, it costs a handful of dollars, maximum, to fit a high quality LED lamp and a high quality dynamo at the factory, and a couple of hundred, as Jay is discovering, to do it in the aftermarket. It would therefore make sense to fit them to all bikes, and let those who don't want them specify a "delete option". Mandatory fitment is another story, without necessarily the same happy outcome. The dissatisfactions with BUMM and other German lamps stem mainly from the restrictions forced on the manufacturers by the legislators.


Maybe this would make sense with touring or commuter bikes.

Anyway I think in general if lights at night were mandatory for the
rider, the market would increase and the price would go down.

I remember when it was illegal to sell a bike without red reflector
tape on the chainstays and white reflector tape on the front fork and
a red reflector on the rear mudguard - and ALL bicycles came with
mud-guards as standard equipment.
That was here in Ontario Canada.

On Mon, 06 Oct 2014 16:23:57 -0400, Duane
wrote:

On 10/6/2014 4:19 PM, sms wrote:
On 10/6/2014 12:57 PM, Duane wrote:

We have MEC here. They could probably offer something. As it is, Velo
Quebec is out regularly giving away cheap lights trying to get people to
at least use them at night. I don't see a big market for expensive
lighting systems at the moment.

We have some of those light give-aways. They are typically so awful that
they are quickly lost or broken. I doubt that anyone ever buys
replacement batteries for them, they just throw them away.







Yeah, my point if that they're trying to give away free lights to get
people to use them because many people don't. If you can't get them to
use free lights I don't think you'll get far selling them 100 dollar
plus lighting systems.

BTW, my PB 2 has batteries and I replace them as needed. My Blackburn
fleas that I use for being seen front and back lights are USB charged.
I wouldn't buy a dynamo either...
Even if it was a $15 option???? I would in a heartbeat at that kind
of price!!

On Mon, 06 Oct 2014 21:49:46 +0100, Clive George
wrote:

On 06/10/2014 21:23, Duane wrote:

Yeah, my point if that they're trying to give away free lights to get
people to use them because many people don't. If you can't get them to
use free lights I don't think you'll get far selling them 100 dollar
plus lighting systems.

Counterintuitively that's not necessarily the case. People treat free
stuff as if it has no value, so it dies. There's all sorts of ways to
persuade people that the more expensive kit is good for them. I'm sure
Andre can help here.
It's the "welfare mentality" If it is given to you it is of no
value. If you have to work for it, you guard it more carefully. (and
possibly even, horror of horrors, USE it!!!

wrote:
On Mon, 06 Oct 2014 16:23:57 -0400, Duane
wrote:

On 10/6/2014 4:19 PM, sms wrote:
On 10/6/2014 12:57 PM, Duane wrote:

We have MEC here. They could probably offer something. As it is, Velo
Quebec is out regularly giving away cheap lights trying to get people to
at least use them at night. I don't see a big market for expensive
lighting systems at the moment.

We have some of those light give-aways. They are typically so awful that
they are quickly lost or broken. I doubt that anyone ever buys
replacement batteries for them, they just throw them away.







Yeah, my point if that they're trying to give away free lights to get
people to use them because many people don't. If you can't get them to
use free lights I don't think you'll get far selling them 100 dollar
plus lighting systems.

BTW, my PB 2 has batteries and I replace them as needed. My Blackburn
fleas that I use for being seen front and back lights are USB charged.
I wouldn't buy a dynamo either...
Even if it was a $15 option???? I would in a heartbeat at that kind
of price!!

Probably not. I don't have a need for any serious lighting. I'm sure
there are those that do and would appreciate that.

--
duane

On Monday, October 6, 2014 5:17:32 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 06 Oct 2014 14:14:42 -0400, Duane

wrote:



On 10/6/2014 1:02 PM, Andre Jute wrote:

On Monday, October 6, 2014 4:16:35 PM UTC+1, Duane wrote:

On 10/6/2014 9:28 AM, Andre Jute wrote:



On Saturday, October 4, 2014 5:17:04 PM UTC+1, wrote:



an evident obsession with dynamo generated electricity begs the question....







Furthermore, the dynamo is just a convenient facilitator. To jump from wanting to ride at night as a natural right of cyclists to "an evident obsession with dynamo generated electricity begs the question", indeed, but the question is: Why are cyclists, typically in America roadies, such fashion victims who take what manufacturers and dealers give them, and let it shape their riding? In this instance, just because most bikes sold in the States don't have lamps on the showroom floor doesn't mean riding at night is unnatural, it simply means that American cyclists are too supine to demand proper lamps and dynamos as standard fitments.







I can get any lights that I want, even those made in Germany, and either



install them on my bike or have the LBS install them. The LBS has



several dozen models on the rack next to the checkout counter.I have a



couple different ones depending on need that I arrange on my own. It's



not rocket science. Or at least it shouldn't be though reading through



the recent threads here, one would wonder.







Why they aren't installed on the new bikes by default I would guess has



more to do with which ones, if any the buyer wants. If I'm doing TTs



and never need to race after dark, why should I pay for a light that I



don't need? And who gets to choose which type of lights the bikes come



with?







As far as I can see, this whole thread is a straw man. This is similar



to Frank's post about people not riding at night having toy bikes. The



same old crap about the roadies versus the "serious" cyclists. It's



still crap and always has been.







I guess that there are people who are afraid to ride at night. I doubt



it's because their bikes don't have lamps. Mandating that they come



installed on all bikes doesn't make sense. Mandating that you can't



ride at night without lights makes more sense in my opinion.



Of course, you don't see the cyclists who are afraid to ride at night. But one of the worst stupidities I do see cyclist commit is riding after dark without lamps, and very often in dark clothes without any reflexives. And not even a reflector on the bike. The reflector on the bike comes on the bike by law, but the LBS routinely takes it off because it fashionable for the kids to lose it, first thing.





There I agree with you. Riding at night without lights is a problem.

And as far as the reflectors, my wife just bought a bike and realized it

didn't have any reflectors when she got it home. I went to the LBS and

had them give me some. They said that Specialized didn't supply them

but he gave me some off the shelf. I was a bit surprised as I though

the LBS just chucked them.



About dynamos and lamps as standard equipment on bikes, in Europe (not including the UK or Ireland!) they're standard equipment on bikes that require them, commuters, utility bikes, suchlike. The rationale for fitting them at the factory has been well made by Scharfie in the past, but as usual he wasn't given credit for talking sense because the resident scum sprayed hatred all over his post: as a matter of economics, it costs a handful of dollars, maximum, to fit a high quality LED lamp and a high quality dynamo at the factory, and a couple of hundred, as Jay is discovering, to do it in the aftermarket. It would therefore make sense to fit them to all bikes, and let those who don't want them specify a "delete option". Mandatory fitment is another story, without necessarily the same happy outcome. The dissatisfactions with BUMM and other German lamps stem mainly from the restrictions forced on the manufacturers by the legislators.





Maybe this would make sense with touring or commuter bikes.



Anyway I think in general if lights at night were mandatory for the

rider, the market would increase and the price would go down.



I remember when it was illegal to sell a bike without red reflector

tape on the chainstays and white reflector tape on the front fork and

a red reflector on the rear mudguard - and ALL bicycles came with

mud-guards as standard equipment.

That was here in Ontario Canada.

kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkKIDSpoorMexicanslawenforceme ncosts..

cyclists following a bloody civil war were granted statutory road rights over their dead crippled bodies...

so when adding the costs, inequities and impossibilities for a simple orange blaze circles...you go nowhere with law against large pop numbers.

no one rides at nght here...crime, biting insects \, lack of imterest in escaping. How's Cape Cod ?

ask REI what REI thinks...

On Monday, October 6, 2014 12:45:14 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
On 10/6/2014 8:16 AM, Duane wrote:



I guess that there are people who are afraid to ride at night. I doubt

it's because their bikes don't have lamps.



Some of them are not aware of the advances in lighting technology that

make it possible to both be conspicuous and see the road well. They're

thinking about the old bottle dynamos with a 2.4W incandescent bulb

http://tinyurl.com/bottledynamo, or thinking of those old chrome

headlights with 2 D cell batteries inside

http://tinyurl.com/dcellchromebicyclelight.



If they are ever convinced to check out better lights and go to a

bicycle shop, they may end up at a shop with lights in the $200 price

range and forget about it. Or they may do a kludge like this:

http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/bicycles/slides/bicycle-flashlight.html

with a ginormous flashlight.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

the majority balk at buying 2 AA