I try hard to support my LBS

"Josh" wrote in message
...
but...

So I went in today for a single spoke for an old mountain bike that I
wanted to fix up enough to sell. Simple enough, right? Since its an old
freehub which I didn't have the removal tool for (drive side spoke), I
asked the guy if he could spin it off for me. He goes, "sure, but it'll be
a couple of dollars labor." I was stunned, but said that'd be fine.
Removal takes 20 seconds, maybe 30 at the most. I go to pay and they
charge me $0.75 for the spoke and $7.50 in labor charges. When I said that
was crazy he started to give me some speech about how he has to pay his
mechanics blah blah blah


OK, another bike shop incident that occurred today. For the group to judge.

A pal has an old rear wheel that he wants converted to fit with his new road
frame. The old road frame used 122mm stays, and the new frame is a modern
130mm.

What has to be done is that a longer rear axle has to be installed, plus
about 8mm of spacers, and the wheel needs a minor redishing. The wheel was
dead straight before, so what has to be done is to tighten the spokes on one
side of the wheel by one revolution, and the spokes on the other side all
loosened by the same amount. Parts: a new axle and an 8mm axle spacer. The
hub bearings/cones were all OK, and came into the shop with fresh grease.
The hub was a easy to work on Shimano cup 'n cone affair.

Total bill: $85 for what I figure should have been 30 minutes of work.

This in itself would not have caused me to flip out, except the shop
installed a 145mm mountain bike rear axle. There was so much axle hanging
out on each side of the dropouts that the side that the only way to tighten
the wheel with the quick release was to crush the spiral springs against the
frame.

So, in my garage, here is what we spent today doing:

- Pull the hub apart to fix the botched shop job
- Cut the axle to a proper length (thanks Ryan!)
- While we have everything apart, replace the 7-speed for an 8/9-speed
freehub
- Add an extra cog and cassette spacer
- Put hub back together.

Then, the following additional work:

- Install and set-up a braze-on front derailleur, which included
straightening the bent hanger on the frame
- Install a new bottom bracket and reinstall crankset
- Put on some new road pedals. Dura-Ace 7401's, as the guy is a LOOK fan.
- Install some Campagnolo brakes
- Straighten out crooked cage plates on a rear Campagnolo derailleur, which
involved a complete disassembly.

Total parts bill: coincidently: $85. If you have a stash of old parts, and
the tools, do-it-yourself is the way to go.

Donald Gillies wrote:

Honestly, at $50-$60 an hour labor (which has plenty of profit margin
for a shop that's financially well-managed), a freewheel removal from
a customer-provided wheel is a 30 second fixed-price job and should
probably be billed at 5 mins minumum labor charge, costing maybe
$4-$5, not $7.50. What, did the guy go in the back of the shop and
search for the right tool for 8.5 minutes? Get real.

30 second job? Many times removing a freewheel is an ordeal.
A few years back I broke both of my used freewheel tools trying to
get my own freewheel off. I took it to my LBS. They broke
every SunTour 2 prong tool they had in the shop and got a new
one from the floor. They alternated between trying to break it
loose with the hex end of a chain whip and a sledge hammer
and with the freewheel tool in a vice with 3 mechanics turning
it. In the end they did get the freewheel off and believe it or
not they didn't even charge me but I certainly wouldn't have been
offended if they charged me $7.50. If I had a tripple or rode a
tandem than the freewheel would probably have been even
tighter. Some freewheels from bikes ridden by spindly legged
soup chickens might come off in 30 seconds but some are
nearly impossible to break loose. Shops have to take best and
worst case into consideration when setting labor charges.
--
Bruce

It's shops like this that give cycling a bad reputation. It's shops
like this - bankrupt morally - that deserve to be bankrupt financially.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

Well Josh, I gather you know the people at the shop, and for the life of
me, I don't understand why you would be shocked with paying, unless you
have perhaps done some free work for him in the past, and expected a
return favor?

Honestly, you were stunned when he said a couple of dollars? (well it
came out to $7.50)

He removed the free hub. Did he also check spoke tension of the other
spokes, and check trueness on his machine? If he also did this, I think
you got your money's worth.

I don't think $7.50 is going to break anyone's bank, so Don if you feel
that a $4.50-$5.00 price is more suitable, do you feel it's worth
putting up a stink over $2.50-$3.00?

This probably wouldn't be all that unfair a price if it was 1975. It is
now soon to be 2006.
Now if the LBS would've said $30.00, well then yes, I would've probably
felt that I was being taken for a ride.

At one Chicago Bike Shop back in 1975, I requested a price for
truing-checking spoke tension on two Campagnolo wheels off of my
Motobecane LeChampion while I was buying some new Tires for it. Know
what the quote was for checking-adjusting two wheels, which needed
absolutely no parts? $47.00.

I walked out without having the service done. At that time, it was bad
enough paying the $45 for two ****ty Vittoria Tires I bought.

I think my LBS here in town charges something like $11 per wheel for
truing/tensioning. Mark

Well i'm not suprised to get quite the range of reactions on this. Perhaps
some clarifications: I've been in the shop from time to time, and while i'm
not sure the guy that rang me up was aware, he did find my name in their
computer system which must have shown something. At some point a while back
I bought a bike from them and was (not any more) considering another. As far
as how long it took, it really was only 30 seconds. I stood there and
watched the guy do it (which, incidentally, comes to $900 an hour). The
freewheel had been removed not so long ago and spun right off with the right
equipment. Maybe I did expect a freebie on this one, and then when I needed
more involved work I'd be more inclined to come back to the same store. That
said, I didn't object to "a couple dollars labor." After all, everyone has
to pay their bills. But 7.50? Thats a bit outrageous. And moreover, I didn't
need the lecture on economy and running a buisness from the elitist prick at
the counter (who I actually is the owner). He's running a buisness deeply
dependent on loyalty and relationships and i'm not sure how far he's going
to make it with that attitude

or maybe its just me
-Josh


"Leo Lichtman" wrote in message
...
I'm with Josh on this. If the store guy had not said, "but it'll be a
couple a couple of dollars labor," then maybe the $7.50 could be
considered a reasable minimum. To me, " a couple dollars labor" is a
price quotation, and they should have stuck to it. My $2 worth.

Also, it would have been nice if the guy had said, "I can sell you the
tool for less than the labor cost. Do you want to do it yourself?"

Josh is not asking for a freeby, He's asking not to be sucked in.

Neil Brooks wrote:
Reading your first post, Don, I did think more about the amount. I
agree with you about $7.50 being a bit high, but the question remains:
if the charge was $5.00, would the OP feel any differently?

$2.00 seems reasonable to me, for a 30 second on the spot job...
loosening a cassette lock ring. They probably spent more than 30
seconds selling the 75 cent spoke!

Repair work can cost big money, though... just like auto repair. It is
*very* easy to rack up a repair bill that exceeds "what the bike is
worth"... since you are comparing slave labor and robots in China to
regular people in the US (like yourself). Either do your own work or
pay the fee... or throw the bike away and get a new one any time it
needs a little work.

My LBS is a great place. The couple of times I went in to have an odd
freehub removed and reinstalled they didn't charge me at all. They
charged $15 to chase and face my bottom bracket shell, which I thought
was very reasonable. DT spokes cost 50 cents, and they cut them right
away. I don't buy that much from them, and I do all my own work unless
an expensive tool is needed... but they are still nice to me anyway.
Their prices on everything are good even though they have little
competition and the overhead is quite high (Kauai). It is obvious that
they love what they are doing. They also appear to be doing well
financially... they are certainly busy, anyway.

No checks, no tension, no anything. If you can get your wheel trued and
tensioned for $11, why did I spend 8.25 to walk out of there with a spoke in
my hand and my wheel disassembled? Quite frankly, if it was my shop I'd be a
bit apprehensive about letting someone walk out of there with that wheel
considering its condition, but thats a different story.

And no, its no, in the end its no big deal that it was 7.50 instead of 4,
but thats nearly double the amount, and I don't believe that the guy quoted
me a few dollars doesn't know exactly what their minimum labor charge is and
could have given me a real quote. I just felt decieved and taken advantage
of, thats all. It doesn't matter all that much to me, but its tough to
promote cycling as an open and inclusive sport when you either have to have
good mechanical skills and a whole bunch of equipment or pay through the
nose for every little thing




"Mark D" wrote in message
...
Well Josh, I gather you know the people at the shop, and for the life of
me, I don't understand why you would be shocked with paying, unless you
have perhaps done some free work for him in the past, and expected a
return favor?

Honestly, you were stunned when he said a couple of dollars? (well it
came out to $7.50)

He removed the free hub. Did he also check spoke tension of the other
spokes, and check trueness on his machine? If he also did this, I think
you got your money's worth.

I don't think $7.50 is going to break anyone's bank, so Don if you feel
that a $4.50-$5.00 price is more suitable, do you feel it's worth
putting up a stink over $2.50-$3.00?

This probably wouldn't be all that unfair a price if it was 1975. It is
now soon to be 2006.
Now if the LBS would've said $30.00, well then yes, I would've probably
felt that I was being taken for a ride.

At one Chicago Bike Shop back in 1975, I requested a price for
truing-checking spoke tension on two Campagnolo wheels off of my
Motobecane LeChampion while I was buying some new Tires for it. Know
what the quote was for checking-adjusting two wheels, which needed
absolutely no parts? $47.00.

I walked out without having the service done. At that time, it was bad
enough paying the $45 for two ****ty Vittoria Tires I bought.

I think my LBS here in town charges something like $11 per wheel for
truing/tensioning. Mark

I do understand what your saying Josh, and I'm thinking the real issue
in your mind was maybe not so much one of cost, but one of principals,
and proper, understandable communication between customer, and bike shop
owner/employee.

Perhaps you just don't jive to the "air" of this place, and maybe feel
that their attitude is you need them more than they need you?
I myself dislike businesses that act that way.

As others have said, regardless of time spent, they may charge a flat
rate, whether it takes ten seconds, or a 1/2 hour. Many won't even
attend to your repairs immediately, they take your item, set it on the
side, tell you to come back later, as they have some other work to do
first.
In that case, you have no idea how long it took them.

To quote "Sonny" in the movie "Bronx Tale"
"You got off cheap, for $7.50 you got these people out of your life".

Maybe there's another shop in your area that you might like doing
business with better?
Mark

Honestly, at $50-$60 an hour a freewheel removal which is a 5 minute
fixed-price job which should cost $4-$5, not $7.50. What, did the guy
go in the back of the shop and search for the right tool for 8.5
minutes? Get real.

It's shops like this that give cycling a bad reputation. It's shops
like this that deserve to be bankrupt financially, they are already
bankrupt morally, end of story.

- Don Gillies

The irony in this situation is that it's likely not the removal of the
cassette that's the big cost to the shop, but selling the single spoke.
Spokes are a nightmare, due to the inventory hassles (so many sizes, several
gauges, and now black as an option too...), time spent running down the
right one, and heaven forbid if you need to look up the size for someone's
wheel... and actually charge for such service. You'd never hear the end of
it, and yet such things eat up huge amounts of time, far greater than what
it takes to remove the cassette, which is a relatively known qty (vs the
variable in terms of time to run down the spoke).

We'd charge $2 to remove a cassette that's off the bike, and it's more than
justifiable in terms of tool wear & mechanics time. Also, something not
considered here is that you're not just paying for the time the mechanic is
actually doing the work; his/her overhead includes the time added to
whatever task he/she was previously working on and has to go back to.

We should make sure we *are* talking about a common cassette here as well,
since the OP called it a freehub at first, then talks about a freewheel, and
purchasing the right freewheel tool to remove it. If it *is* a freewheel,
let's say an older Suntour where the splines are suspect if everything's not
done exactly right, and the tools don't last very long... then $7 would be
entirely reasonable. We charge a variable rate on the difficult freewheels
(those with an external means of removal, rather than the internal
strip-proof design of most Shimanos), starting at $5 and ending at $15, the
latter being what it costs if we have to remove it destructively (unscrew
the freewheel's lockring, remove the outer body with the cogs, and place the
inner body into a vice and turn the wheel).

But still, I have to think the biggest loss area for a shop, in terms of
time spent vs revenue earned, is in hunting down small quantities of spokes.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

It is precisely that. The difference between me paying $3 and $7.50 doesn't
mean all that much in terms of my dollars spent. Its the lack of
communication and acting like they're doing me a favor that gets to me.




"Mark D" wrote in message
...
I do understand what your saying Josh, and I'm thinking the real issue
in your mind was maybe not so much one of cost, but one of principals,
and proper, understandable communication between customer, and bike shop
owner/employee.

Perhaps you just don't jive to the "air" of this place, and maybe feel
that their attitude is you need them more than they need you?
I myself dislike businesses that act that way.

As others have said, regardless of time spent, they may charge a flat
rate, whether it takes ten seconds, or a 1/2 hour. Many won't even
attend to your repairs immediately, they take your item, set it on the
side, tell you to come back later, as they have some other work to do
first.
In that case, you have no idea how long it took them.

To quote "Sonny" in the movie "Bronx Tale"
"You got off cheap, for $7.50 you got these people out of your life".

Maybe there's another shop in your area that you might like doing
business with better?
Mark

"Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote: (clip) But still, I have to think the biggest
loss area for a shop, in terms of time spent vs revenue earned, is in
hunting down small quantities of spokes.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Mike, I think everyone here respects you and the way you run your shop,
based on many, many comments you have made on a variety of subjects. So,
let me ask you: would you tell a customer a job is going to cost "a couple
of dollars," and then, after spending half a minute on it, IN FRONT OF HIS
EYES, price the work at $7.50?

On the question of selling a single spoke. You obviously would go out of
business if that were your main source of revenue. I've been in retail
business also, and I think we both know that some activities make money, and
some do not. You can't expect the customer to pay directly for each thing
you do. What about the guy who calls you on the phone, talks for fifteen
minutes, and never even comes in? What about the guy who asks for a single
spoke, and, after you show it to him, measures it and says, "I think I may
have one of these at home, and leaves?" What about the rainy day when
hardly anyone even comes in?

But, if you do your job right, you will make enough money on satisfied
customers, keep them coming back, and keep the money coming in.