I try hard to support my LBS

"Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote: (clip) But still, I have to think the biggest
loss area for a shop, in terms of time spent vs revenue earned, is in
hunting down small quantities of spokes.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Mike, I think everyone here respects you and the way you run your shop,
based on many, many comments you have made on a variety of subjects. So,
let me ask you: would you tell a customer a job is going to cost "a
couple of dollars," and then, after spending half a minute on it, IN FRONT
OF HIS EYES, price the work at $7.50?

Yes, I should have addressed that, as that was really the biggest issue in
the original post. Unfortuantely, I got caught up in the various side
issues... and perhaps I was looking too hard at what might have actually
gone down that may have justified the expense.

On the question of selling a single spoke. You obviously would go out of
business if that were your main source of revenue. I've been in retail
business also, and I think we both know that some activities make money,
and some do not. You can't expect the customer to pay directly for each
thing you do.

Absolutely true. Of course, any businesses *do* go under, because they don't
recognize those things that pay the bills, and those that don't, and spend
far too much time on the latter. It may sound great that a business can
"afford" to take care of people for such things, but the truth is that the
supply of labor and expertise will always be limited, and resources used in
one area are thus taken away from others. To some extent, other customers
are subsidizing such things, and, as pricing becomes driven ever-closer to
the break-even point, the uglier side of the bottom line becomes
increasingly urgent business.

What about the guy who calls you on the phone, talks for fifteen minutes,
and never even comes in? What about the guy who asks for a single spoke,
and, after you show it to him, measures it and says, "I think I may have
one of these at home, and leaves?" What about the rainy day when hardly
anyone even comes in?

Indeed! In reality, long phone conversations rarely result in a sale. Our
job, as store-front retailers, is to get the customer into the store. If we
don't have something compelling *in the store*, then all the time in the
world on the phone has been wasted on someone who, in all likelihood, will
buy elsewhere after having been "educated." It's hard to believe there's
much need for a phone call of more than five minutes to take care of most
issues.

But, if you do your job right, you will make enough money on satisfied
customers, keep them coming back, and keep the money coming in.

Yes, but with the caveat that the world is becoming increasingly intolerant
of waste, and those satisfied customers who may not initially be very
worried about pricing issues, may very well be down the road. Somehow you've
got to offer as much as possible for the people who actually pay the bills,
and in order to stay in business, with costs in every area rising much
faster than any pricing increases in bikes & components, and margins
decreasing... it's not an easy task, and there *will* have to be choices
made regarding what you can afford to subsidize, and what you can't.

An example of things we no longer "subsidize?" Cotter pins. There's no way
you can justify, to the customer, what a cotter pin for an old crank should
actually sell for, after you go through all the time of finding one that's
either right or close, and perhaps having to grind it down to fit. So we
don't sell cotter pins, period. I donated our entire collection to one of
the local organizations that donates bikes to charities, so we no longer
have a salesperson saying "We might have one of those" and, literally, this
really happened, leaving the salesfloor on a busy Saturday and spending half
an hour (again, literally) with a mechanic, trying to make something work...
and charging $1.50 while a whole lot of customers didn't get taken care of
and eventually left.

But none of that has anything to do with a lack of communication, or perhaps
even honesty, where a customer is told something will cost "x" and then
charged "y." That's the sort of thing I lose sleep over in our own
operation... I hate anything that will surprise a customer unpleasantly.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 22:33:36 -0700, (Mark D) wrote:

I do understand what your saying Josh, and I'm thinking the real issue
in your mind was maybe not so much one of cost, but one of principals,
and proper, understandable communication between customer, and bike shop
owner/employee.

When asked the cost in advance, the guy said "sure, but it'll be a
couple of dollars labor." That means $2 plus the cost of the spoke
plus tax, assuming nothing abnormal happens in the course of the work
that takes extra time.

I've got no problem with a shop charging $7.50 or even $10 to just
look at a bike if they want to -- the customer can simply decline and
take his business elsewhere. But it's not right to say one thing and
then charge another after the work is done.

JT

****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 18:24:06 -0500, "Josh" wrote:
So I went in today for a single spoke for an old mountain bike that I wanted
to fix up enough to sell. Simple enough, right? Since its an old freehub
which I didn't have the removal tool for (drive side spoke), I asked the guy
if he could spin it off for me. He goes, "sure, but it'll be a couple of
dollars labor." I was stunned, but said that'd be fine. Removal takes 20
seconds, maybe 30 at the most. I go to pay and they charge me $0.75 for the
spoke and $7.50 in labor charges. When I said that was crazy he started to
give me some speech about how he has to pay his mechanics blah blah blah

OK, everybody else has had their 2c worth, so here's mine. You were
shocked by the original $2 quote; that already loses you any sympathy
I may have had after they screwed you over by charging 225% over the
original quote. He probably calculated your bill based on your
attitude anyway; you were trying to get off buying a $15 tool by
trying to blag a $10 favour on the back of a $0.75 sale, you scumbag.

If I can't, or can't be bothered to, do something on one of my bikes,
I expect to pay the guy who does. I wouldn't expect anybody to do
anything for less than 10GBP (that's about $17.50), just because I
know I wouldn't. Just dropping what you're doing and setting up to do
something new, plus the cost of handling the transaction, makes a
10GBP minimum reasonable in my view. If I were in a shop where I was a
known regular and wanted a favour, I'd still give the mechanic a
fiver, which is what you should have done right away when he said he'd
have to charge you. Chances are, he'd have taken your $5 and put some
of it towards your spoke purchase too.

Kinky Cowboy*

*Batteries not included
May contain traces of nuts
Your milage may vary

Robin Hubert wrote:


Right. We offer to sell the tool(s) or charge a reasonable fee to do
the job. Most customers end up paying the $7.50 or so ($5 is good). I
think your Local Shop Guy is right. If you were a regular customer and
had spent money with us, we often do it for free, but not for somebody
who just walks in off the street and we have no relationship with them.

I think this kind of thinking is symptomatic of a larger school of
thought and that is that, since bicycles aren't worth alot of money,
usually, in the scheme of things, the labor to service them ought to be
inexpensive. That's nice except a guy has to make a living. So does
his boss and the other employees and associates of the shop. Most
decent mechanics don't make much money. Think for a minute what a
living wage is (for skilled labor) and figure out what it costs to pay a
mechanic. If you're not making $30K in urban areas you're living
*cough* frugally. Then figure what it costs to keep the joint open, and
to pay the guy when he's not busy making money for you when business is
slow. Don't forget those jobs that turn out, for one reason or another,
to end up as a time-consuming money-loser. Oh, and you gotta love 'em
when they stand around and ask questions (grasping desperately for
social connection) for 20 or more minutes and then buy some $6 widget,
or nothing at all. Frankly, we can make more money answering the phones
than piddling with cassette or freewheel removals.
What's *your* time worth? Do you think these people ought to be able to
earn a living?

People wonder why LBS's can't stay in business.

I'm sure Peter Chisholm does it cheaper, faster (maybe) and better.



Robin Hubert

I would not begrudge a shop for a small bill like that. A lot of people
would not bat an eye at spending 3.85 at $tarbuck$ on a grande mocha
something or other which is after all, just a cup of coffee. If
something bugs him me that much, next time I just vow to do it myself.

Josh wrote:
It is precisely that. The difference between me paying $3 and $7.50 doesn't
mean all that much in terms of my dollars spent. Its the lack of
communication and acting like they're doing me a favor that gets to me.

You're talking about business practices and not justice or what is right
here. It's up to the store to decide if they wish to do some 'gimme'
work just as it's up to you to decide if you wish to go back there. The
store did not owe you anything including free work. I'm not saying you
have said this - only stating my position.

OTOH, there are other LBS's you can go to, right? For example, I went
into my local shop for Specialized when I got my eBay sourced bike with
a few paint nicks. The guy behind the counter knew what bike I had from
the color so said, "nice bike" and also gave me paint for free. He had
the same bike. He offered to do a free fitting since the bike was in
pieces.

The upshot was that when my buddy wanted a road bike, I took him there
as a good LBS to deal with. So for a bottle of paint and an offer, the
store got several sales (my buddy referred a buddy).

Thus in the end, I think your LBS was silly and hurt itself.

Why is it that every once in a while some cheap guy wants the LBS to
do work for free. He interrupted somebody who has the tools, the
knowledge
and the space to do work he didn't want to do himself. and then he
wants a deal! I'm gonna try this next time I go to the car dealer.
They should work for less. Shouldn't they? And what about the
price of bread? It should be cheaper too. The LBS is lucky
to lose him as a customer. just another complainer.
....thehick

On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 22:40:20 -0500, "Josh" wrote:

Well i'm not suprised to get quite the range of reactions on this. Perhaps
some clarifications: I've been in the shop from time to time, and while i'm
not sure the guy that rang me up was aware, he did find my name in their
computer system which must have shown something. At some point a while back
I bought a bike from them and was (not any more) considering another. As far
as how long it took, it really was only 30 seconds. I stood there and
watched the guy do it (which, incidentally, comes to $900 an hour). The
freewheel had been removed not so long ago and spun right off with the right
equipment. Maybe I did expect a freebie on this one, and then when I needed
more involved work I'd be more inclined to come back to the same store. That
said, I didn't object to "a couple dollars labor." After all, everyone has
to pay their bills. But 7.50? Thats a bit outrageous. And moreover, I didn't
need the lecture on economy and running a buisness from the elitist prick at
the counter (who I actually is the owner). He's running a buisness deeply
dependent on loyalty and relationships and i'm not sure how far he's going
to make it with that attitude

or maybe its just me
-Josh

What do you charge to drop whatever it is you are doing and apply your tools and
skills to a job?

Ron

"Josh" writes:

So I went in today for a single spoke for an old mountain bike that
I wanted to fix up enough to sell. Simple enough, right? Since its
an old freehub which I didn't have the removal tool for (drive side
spoke), I asked the guy if he could spin it off for me. He goes,
"sure, but it'll be a couple of dollars labor." I was stunned, but
said that'd be fine. Removal takes 20 seconds, maybe 30 at the
most. I go to pay and they charge me $0.75 for the spoke and $7.50
in labor charges. When I said that was crazy he started to give me
some speech about how he has to pay his mechanics blah blah blah

Here we go. "It'll just take a second so you should do it for free."
Hey, Josh, a bike shop is a business. You want a service, you expect
to pay for it. Simple as that. The shop owner had to move somebody
else's bike out of the way, maybe leave paying customer standing
around while he took care of your problem, hunt down the tool, etc.
You don't mention if you were nice enough to just bring in your wheel
with the QR removed or if you brought in the whole bike. Five minutes
is probably more likely that 30 seconds. The shop probably costs $50
per hour to operate figuring in all the overhead (and that's a small
shop- a large shop would be more).

Frankly I think your shock and amazement are the result of your own
attitude, not reality. The shop owner was right to charge you. Your
argument that "he should have done it for free because I might have
given him more business some time in the future" is a crock. The odds
are good you'd have continued to give your future business to Nashbar
and the like. Do yourself and the bike shop a favor- buy some tools.

thehick wrote:
Why is it that every once in a while some cheap guy wants the LBS to
do work for free. He interrupted somebody who has the tools, the
knowledge
and the space to do work he didn't want to do himself. and then he
wants a deal! I'm gonna try this next time I go to the car dealer.
They should work for less. Shouldn't they? And what about the
price of bread? It should be cheaper too. The LBS is lucky
to lose him as a customer. just another complainer.
...thehick

The only factor missing in all that is that he was told "I'll have to charge
you a couple bucks for labor" and then at checkout discovered it was $7.50.
Not to speak for the OP, but if I knew it would be that much then I'd go
ahead and buy the tool, too.

It's really about clear -- and honest -- communication.

thebill

On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 09:10:38 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
wrote:


An example of things we no longer "subsidize?" Cotter pins. There's no way
you can justify, to the customer, what a cotter pin for an old crank should
actually sell for, after you go through all the time of finding one that's
either right or close, and perhaps having to grind it down to fit. So we
don't sell cotter pins, period. I donated our entire collection to one of
the local organizations that donates bikes to charities, so we no longer
have a salesperson saying "We might have one of those" and, literally, this
really happened, leaving the salesfloor on a busy Saturday and spending half
an hour (again, literally) with a mechanic, trying to make something work...
and charging $1.50 while a whole lot of customers didn't get taken care of
and eventually left.

I do music electronics repair. We have a wall covered in small transistor bins,
shelves and shelves of tubes - despite all of which substitutions and
proprietary part numbers must be researched - and brother I feel your pain. We
routinely debate counter parts sales, "Worthy traffic builder or Abject waste of
time of someone who could be earning money." People just don't pay for parts
research unless it's built into the price of the part - of course someone will
have it cheaper online.

But none of that has anything to do with a lack of communication, or perhaps
even honesty, where a customer is told something will cost "x" and then
charged "y." That's the sort of thing I lose sleep over in our own
operation... I hate anything that will surprise a customer unpleasantly.

True. Maybe I'm being unfair to the original poster here, but the guy who is
"stunned" that it would cost "a couple of bucks" sounds like the guy who hears
"a couple of bucks" when what is said is "it won't cost much." We've got those.

Anyway, if people want to be able to walk into a place and buy parts and get
service, they have to pay enough that the owner of the business puts his money
into inventory and rent and payroll instead of money market funds. That includes
subsidizing the parts that don't sell and the time and overhead that are
underutilized.

Ron



--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA