Building wheels on tubeless rims using tube

On Wednesday, September 9, 2020 at 9:41:38 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 8:28:27 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/8/2020 7:58 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/8/2020 8:27 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/8/2020 7:01 PM, Mark J. wrote:
On 9/8/2020 3:47 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 3:51:11 PM UTC-5, AMuzi
wrote:
On 9/8/2020 2:15 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 11:46:38 AM UTC-5, Mark
J. wrote:
On 9/8/2020 7:30 AM, wrote:
I want to build a set of wheels and I don't use
tubeless and have clinchers. Seems most now are
tubeless and some have holes to drive spokes through
the rim and others don't. Anyone know which ones can
have regular spoke holes and still be tubeless? My rim
choices are

DT Swiss 411 or the 460
H and Son Archetype if I can find them
Possibly Velocity..........what do you like A23
HED
Kinlin

Basically I want to build a decent 32 spoke rim with
Shimano Ultegra hubs radial front 3 cross rear. Not
much in stock in most places. Finally how hard is it
to build a wheel on tubeless with no spoke holes on
outside?

Deacon Mark

I got 10,000 miles on a Velocity A23 "OC" rim with 24
spokes, 170lb/77kg
rider. 24 spokes was pushing it, so I'm reasonably
happy with that
performance (rim died of cracks at the nipple holes).

Replaced with the DT 411 "OC" rim, still 24 spokes. DT
"requires" and
supplies nipple washers with the rim, use 'em, it might
hold off the cracks.

Both built well and held their true (well, the A23 was
stable up to its
demise).

Don't recall if you've told us your weight, but I
expect either the A23
or DT 411 would give many many years of service in 32
spoke.

PS - I haven't tried tubeless tires yet.
I can't find if the DT rim is supposed to be "tubeless
ready" or not
(i.e. can be run tubeless with the correct rim liner),
but it works fine
with clinchers & tubes, and tires don't fit
unreasonably tight either.

Same for the A23.

Mark J.
Do Velocity a23 in the OC rear and front have
traditional spoke holes to work with?

Deacon Mark

Yes they do. And American made.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
While I am at it the wheel I want to replace is Kinlin xc
279. They have about 10k miles on them and the rear wheel
has a hop now. I de-tensioned the spokes. I manage to get
the wheel centered and laterally pretty true certainly
within in .5 mm. The tension on the drive side is pretty
consistent on Park tool at all 23-25. The non-drive side
is a bit more out in place going farther and 20% off in
places. The problem is the hop is back in the wheel. To
correct it my guess is now way to really do this the rim
is just not able. Seems to me that radial truing is the
hardest and if off too much compared to the rest I should
get new rim? Correct? The bike actually rides fine with it
I just don't like the hop I can feel it riding.

Deacon Mark


My experience has been that a hop you can feel while riding
is often a deformed/bent rim. The truing experience you
describe also suggests bent rim. Except for emergency
kludges, bent rim means time for a new rim. It happens,
enjoy building the new one. Make sure to get tension high
enough, but 23-25 Park reading on 2mm spokes is plenty high.

Mark J.

At the upper end of that yes with 2mm straight spokes.

Velocity recommends 120nm (+/-10). '23' on the Park scale
is only 95nm.

You mean 95 kgf, I think.


d'oh.
Thank you
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Ok so I can rebuild the wheel and the spokes are good and the nipples. I cannot get a Kinlin xc 279 rim anymore. The ERD is 583 so checking around I see a DT Swiss 585 rim is cheap at $45 and the ERM is 282. If i rebuild using this rim will it probably work? What to the Las Vegas odds makers give me on the success of 1mm off. Could go with a dtswiss 520 rim at 584 but these are more money and pinned joint not welded.

Deacon Mark
A mark of a bent rim is spokes breaking even when you can true the wheel well.

Op woensdag 9 september 2020 om 02:58:37 UTC+2 schreef Frank Krygowski:
On 9/8/2020 8:27 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/8/2020 7:01 PM, Mark J. wrote:
On 9/8/2020 3:47 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 3:51:11 PM UTC-5, AMuzi
wrote:
On 9/8/2020 2:15 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 11:46:38 AM UTC-5, Mark
J. wrote:
On 9/8/2020 7:30 AM, wrote:
I want to build a set of wheels and I don't use
tubeless and have clinchers. Seems most now are
tubeless and some have holes to drive spokes through
the rim and others don't. Anyone know which ones can
have regular spoke holes and still be tubeless? My rim
choices are

DT Swiss 411 or the 460
H and Son Archetype if I can find them
Possibly Velocity..........what do you like A23
HED
Kinlin

Basically I want to build a decent 32 spoke rim with
Shimano Ultegra hubs radial front 3 cross rear. Not
much in stock in most places. Finally how hard is it
to build a wheel on tubeless with no spoke holes on
outside?

Deacon Mark

I got 10,000 miles on a Velocity A23 "OC" rim with 24
spokes, 170lb/77kg
rider. 24 spokes was pushing it, so I'm reasonably
happy with that
performance (rim died of cracks at the nipple holes).

Replaced with the DT 411 "OC" rim, still 24 spokes. DT
"requires" and
supplies nipple washers with the rim, use 'em, it might
hold off the cracks.

Both built well and held their true (well, the A23 was
stable up to its
demise).

Don't recall if you've told us your weight, but I
expect either the A23
or DT 411 would give many many years of service in 32
spoke.

PS - I haven't tried tubeless tires yet.
I can't find if the DT rim is supposed to be "tubeless
ready" or not
(i.e. can be run tubeless with the correct rim liner),
but it works fine
with clinchers & tubes, and tires don't fit
unreasonably tight either.

Same for the A23.

Mark J.
Do Velocity a23 in the OC rear and front have
traditional spoke holes to work with?

Deacon Mark

Yes they do. And American made.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
While I am at it the wheel I want to replace is Kinlin xc
279. They have about 10k miles on them and the rear wheel
has a hop now. I de-tensioned the spokes. I manage to get
the wheel centered and laterally pretty true certainly
within in .5 mm. The tension on the drive side is pretty
consistent on Park tool at all 23-25. The non-drive side
is a bit more out in place going farther and 20% off in
places. The problem is the hop is back in the wheel. To
correct it my guess is now way to really do this the rim
is just not able. Seems to me that radial truing is the
hardest and if off too much compared to the rest I should
get new rim? Correct? The bike actually rides fine with it
I just don't like the hop I can feel it riding.

Deacon Mark


My experience has been that a hop you can feel while riding
is often a deformed/bent rim. The truing experience you
describe also suggests bent rim. Except for emergency
kludges, bent rim means time for a new rim. It happens,
enjoy building the new one. Make sure to get tension high
enough, but 23-25 Park reading on 2mm spokes is plenty high.

Mark J.

At the upper end of that yes with 2mm straight spokes.

Velocity recommends 120nm (+/-10). '23' on the Park scale is only 95nm.
You mean 95 kgf, I think.


--
- Frank Krygowski

Newtons please.

Lou

My experience has been that a hop you can feel while riding
is often a deformed/bent rim. The truing experience you
describe also suggests bent rim. Except for emergency
kludges, bent rim means time for a new rim. It happens,
enjoy building the new one. Make sure to get tension high
enough, but 23-25 Park reading on 2mm spokes is plenty high.

Mark J.

At the upper end of that yes with 2mm straight spokes.

Velocity recommends 120nm (+/-10). '23' on the Park scale is only 95nm.
You mean 95 kgf, I think.


--
- Frank Krygowski

Newtons please.

Lou


Yes, the English units are bad enough but some of the engineering units are
ridiculous. It's time to stop with "kilograms of force" and "pounds of mass".
Just use proper units of mass and force without these crazy hybrids.

On 9/9/2020 3:17 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op woensdag 9 september 2020 om 02:58:37 UTC+2 schreef Frank Krygowski:
On 9/8/2020 8:27 PM, AMuzi wrote:


Velocity recommends 120nm (+/-10). '23' on the Park scale is only 95nm.
You mean 95 kgf, I think.


--
- Frank Krygowski

Newtons please.

Lou

I agree, Newtons makes much more sense. The SI system is extremely logical.

When teaching dynamics here in the U.S. I had to explain "pounds force"
vs. "pounds mass," and that confusing them could lead to answers being
off by over 30 times. I had to explain the silliness of naming a
conversion factor "g sub c" thereby causing inevitable confusion with
the acceleration of gravity "g." I demanded that students strictly keep
track of units of measurement to avoid the above confusion.

I sang the praises of the SI system, and still do. I said it was so much
more sensible to use different units for Force and Mass: kilograms for
mass, Newtons for force or weight. Why couldn't Americans be that logical?

Then I found that most Europeans were using kgf = "kilograms force."

:-/


--
- Frank Krygowski

Op woensdag 9 september 2020 om 21:50:00 UTC+2 schreef Frank Krygowski:
On 9/9/2020 3:17 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op woensdag 9 september 2020 om 02:58:37 UTC+2 schreef Frank Krygowski:
On 9/8/2020 8:27 PM, AMuzi wrote:


Velocity recommends 120nm (+/-10). '23' on the Park scale is only 95nm.
You mean 95 kgf, I think.


--
- Frank Krygowski

Newtons please.

Lou
I agree, Newtons makes much more sense. The SI system is extremely logical.

When teaching dynamics here in the U.S. I had to explain "pounds force"
vs. "pounds mass," and that confusing them could lead to answers being
off by over 30 times. I had to explain the silliness of naming a
conversion factor "g sub c" thereby causing inevitable confusion with
the acceleration of gravity "g." I demanded that students strictly keep
track of units of measurement to avoid the above confusion.

I sang the praises of the SI system, and still do. I said it was so much
more sensible to use different units for Force and Mass: kilograms for
mass, Newtons for force or weight. Why couldn't Americans be that logical?

Then I found that most Europeans were using kgf = "kilograms force."

:-/

When I went to high school kgf was abandoned and you would be 'shot' using it. That was more than 50 years ago.

Lou

On 9/9/2020 9:41 AM, wrote:
On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 8:28:27 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/8/2020 7:58 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/8/2020 8:27 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/8/2020 7:01 PM, Mark J. wrote:
On 9/8/2020 3:47 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 3:51:11 PM UTC-5, AMuzi
wrote:
On 9/8/2020 2:15 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 11:46:38 AM UTC-5, Mark
J. wrote:
On 9/8/2020 7:30 AM, wrote:
I want to build a set of wheels and I don't use
tubeless and have clinchers. Seems most now are
tubeless and some have holes to drive spokes through
the rim and others don't. Anyone know which ones can
have regular spoke holes and still be tubeless? My rim
choices are

DT Swiss 411 or the 460
H and Son Archetype if I can find them
Possibly Velocity..........what do you like A23
HED
Kinlin

Basically I want to build a decent 32 spoke rim with
Shimano Ultegra hubs radial front 3 cross rear. Not
much in stock in most places. Finally how hard is it
to build a wheel on tubeless with no spoke holes on
outside?

Deacon Mark

I got 10,000 miles on a Velocity A23 "OC" rim with 24
spokes, 170lb/77kg
rider. 24 spokes was pushing it, so I'm reasonably
happy with that
performance (rim died of cracks at the nipple holes).

Replaced with the DT 411 "OC" rim, still 24 spokes. DT
"requires" and
supplies nipple washers with the rim, use 'em, it might
hold off the cracks.

Both built well and held their true (well, the A23 was
stable up to its
demise).

Don't recall if you've told us your weight, but I
expect either the A23
or DT 411 would give many many years of service in 32
spoke.

PS - I haven't tried tubeless tires yet.
I can't find if the DT rim is supposed to be "tubeless
ready" or not
(i.e. can be run tubeless with the correct rim liner),
but it works fine
with clinchers & tubes, and tires don't fit
unreasonably tight either.

Same for the A23.

Mark J.
Do Velocity a23 in the OC rear and front have
traditional spoke holes to work with?

Deacon Mark

Yes they do. And American made.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
While I am at it the wheel I want to replace is Kinlin xc
279. They have about 10k miles on them and the rear wheel
has a hop now. I de-tensioned the spokes. I manage to get
the wheel centered and laterally pretty true certainly
within in .5 mm. The tension on the drive side is pretty
consistent on Park tool at all 23-25. The non-drive side
is a bit more out in place going farther and 20% off in
places. The problem is the hop is back in the wheel. To
correct it my guess is now way to really do this the rim
is just not able. Seems to me that radial truing is the
hardest and if off too much compared to the rest I should
get new rim? Correct? The bike actually rides fine with it
I just don't like the hop I can feel it riding.

Deacon Mark


My experience has been that a hop you can feel while riding
is often a deformed/bent rim. The truing experience you
describe also suggests bent rim. Except for emergency
kludges, bent rim means time for a new rim. It happens,
enjoy building the new one. Make sure to get tension high
enough, but 23-25 Park reading on 2mm spokes is plenty high.

Mark J.

At the upper end of that yes with 2mm straight spokes.

Velocity recommends 120nm (+/-10). '23' on the Park scale
is only 95nm.

You mean 95 kgf, I think.


d'oh.
Thank you
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Ok so I can rebuild the wheel and the spokes are good and the nipples. I cannot get a Kinlin xc 279 rim anymore. The ERD is 583 so checking around I see a DT Swiss 585 rim is cheap at $45 and the ERM is 282. If i rebuild using this rim will it probably work? What to the Las Vegas odds makers give me on the success of 1mm off. Could go with a dtswiss 520 rim at 584 but these are more money and pinned joint not welded.

Deacon Mark

Not sure if I understand the question, but: IF the question is, "can I
reuse spokes on a new rim with an ERD 2mm higher than the old rim?," My
answer would be: "If on the old build the spokes came to the bottom of
the nipple slot or higher, probably yes, but only with brass - not
aluminum - nipples."

Reasoning: 2mm increase in ERD means a 1mm increase in optimal spoke
length. On the new build, spoke ends will be 1mm lower relative to the
rim bed than on the old build. Ending up with spoke ends 1mm *below*
the bottom of the nipple slot isn't optimal, but you can probably get
away with it using brass nipples. Aluminum nipples used in this way are
known for breakage, with the nipple head breaking off right at the end
of the spoke.

PS - make sure the rim suits you in more ways than just similar ERD.
Better to pay for new spokes and get a rim that suits you than to keep
the old spokes and get a rim that doesn't meet your riding needs.

Mark J.

On Wednesday, September 9, 2020 at 3:10:50 PM UTC-7, Mark J. wrote:
On 9/9/2020 9:41 AM, wrote:
On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 8:28:27 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/8/2020 7:58 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/8/2020 8:27 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/8/2020 7:01 PM, Mark J. wrote:
On 9/8/2020 3:47 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 3:51:11 PM UTC-5, AMuzi
wrote:
On 9/8/2020 2:15 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 11:46:38 AM UTC-5, Mark
J. wrote:
On 9/8/2020 7:30 AM, wrote:
I want to build a set of wheels and I don't use
tubeless and have clinchers. Seems most now are
tubeless and some have holes to drive spokes through
the rim and others don't. Anyone know which ones can
have regular spoke holes and still be tubeless? My rim
choices are

DT Swiss 411 or the 460
H and Son Archetype if I can find them
Possibly Velocity..........what do you like A23
HED
Kinlin

Basically I want to build a decent 32 spoke rim with
Shimano Ultegra hubs radial front 3 cross rear. Not
much in stock in most places. Finally how hard is it
to build a wheel on tubeless with no spoke holes on
outside?

Deacon Mark

I got 10,000 miles on a Velocity A23 "OC" rim with 24
spokes, 170lb/77kg
rider. 24 spokes was pushing it, so I'm reasonably
happy with that
performance (rim died of cracks at the nipple holes).

Replaced with the DT 411 "OC" rim, still 24 spokes. DT
"requires" and
supplies nipple washers with the rim, use 'em, it might
hold off the cracks.

Both built well and held their true (well, the A23 was
stable up to its
demise).

Don't recall if you've told us your weight, but I
expect either the A23
or DT 411 would give many many years of service in 32
spoke.

PS - I haven't tried tubeless tires yet.
I can't find if the DT rim is supposed to be "tubeless
ready" or not
(i.e. can be run tubeless with the correct rim liner),
but it works fine
with clinchers & tubes, and tires don't fit
unreasonably tight either.

Same for the A23.

Mark J.
Do Velocity a23 in the OC rear and front have
traditional spoke holes to work with?

Deacon Mark

Yes they do. And American made.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
While I am at it the wheel I want to replace is Kinlin xc
279. They have about 10k miles on them and the rear wheel
has a hop now. I de-tensioned the spokes. I manage to get
the wheel centered and laterally pretty true certainly
within in .5 mm. The tension on the drive side is pretty
consistent on Park tool at all 23-25. The non-drive side
is a bit more out in place going farther and 20% off in
places. The problem is the hop is back in the wheel. To
correct it my guess is now way to really do this the rim
is just not able. Seems to me that radial truing is the
hardest and if off too much compared to the rest I should
get new rim? Correct? The bike actually rides fine with it
I just don't like the hop I can feel it riding.

Deacon Mark


My experience has been that a hop you can feel while riding
is often a deformed/bent rim. The truing experience you
describe also suggests bent rim. Except for emergency
kludges, bent rim means time for a new rim. It happens,
enjoy building the new one. Make sure to get tension high
enough, but 23-25 Park reading on 2mm spokes is plenty high.

Mark J.

At the upper end of that yes with 2mm straight spokes.

Velocity recommends 120nm (+/-10). '23' on the Park scale
is only 95nm.

You mean 95 kgf, I think.


d'oh.
Thank you
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Ok so I can rebuild the wheel and the spokes are good and the nipples. I cannot get a Kinlin xc 279 rim anymore. The ERD is 583 so checking around I see a DT Swiss 585 rim is cheap at $45 and the ERM is 282. If i rebuild using this rim will it probably work? What to the Las Vegas odds makers give me on the success of 1mm off. Could go with a dtswiss 520 rim at 584 but these are more money and pinned joint not welded.

Deacon Mark

Not sure if I understand the question, but: IF the question is, "can I
reuse spokes on a new rim with an ERD 2mm higher than the old rim?," My
answer would be: "If on the old build the spokes came to the bottom of
the nipple slot or higher, probably yes, but only with brass - not
aluminum - nipples."

Reasoning: 2mm increase in ERD means a 1mm increase in optimal spoke
length. On the new build, spoke ends will be 1mm lower relative to the
rim bed than on the old build. Ending up with spoke ends 1mm *below*
the bottom of the nipple slot isn't optimal, but you can probably get
away with it using brass nipples. Aluminum nipples used in this way are
known for breakage, with the nipple head breaking off right at the end
of the spoke.

PS - make sure the rim suits you in more ways than just similar ERD.
Better to pay for new spokes and get a rim that suits you than to keep
the old spokes and get a rim that doesn't meet your riding needs.

Mark J.

Good post. Getting spokes these days for a reasonable price is kind of a trick. Let me know if you have a source. Mine have dried up.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 9/9/2020 6:36 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, September 9, 2020 at 3:10:50 PM UTC-7, Mark J. wrote:
On 9/9/2020 9:41 AM, wrote:
On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 8:28:27 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/8/2020 7:58 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/8/2020 8:27 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/8/2020 7:01 PM, Mark J. wrote:
On 9/8/2020 3:47 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 3:51:11 PM UTC-5, AMuzi
wrote:
On 9/8/2020 2:15 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 11:46:38 AM UTC-5, Mark
J. wrote:
On 9/8/2020 7:30 AM, wrote:
I want to build a set of wheels and I don't use
tubeless and have clinchers. Seems most now are
tubeless and some have holes to drive spokes through
the rim and others don't. Anyone know which ones can
have regular spoke holes and still be tubeless? My rim
choices are

DT Swiss 411 or the 460
H and Son Archetype if I can find them
Possibly Velocity..........what do you like A23
HED
Kinlin

Basically I want to build a decent 32 spoke rim with
Shimano Ultegra hubs radial front 3 cross rear. Not
much in stock in most places. Finally how hard is it
to build a wheel on tubeless with no spoke holes on
outside?

Deacon Mark

I got 10,000 miles on a Velocity A23 "OC" rim with 24
spokes, 170lb/77kg
rider. 24 spokes was pushing it, so I'm reasonably
happy with that
performance (rim died of cracks at the nipple holes).

Replaced with the DT 411 "OC" rim, still 24 spokes. DT
"requires" and
supplies nipple washers with the rim, use 'em, it might
hold off the cracks.

Both built well and held their true (well, the A23 was
stable up to its
demise).

Don't recall if you've told us your weight, but I
expect either the A23
or DT 411 would give many many years of service in 32
spoke.

PS - I haven't tried tubeless tires yet.
I can't find if the DT rim is supposed to be "tubeless
ready" or not
(i.e. can be run tubeless with the correct rim liner),
but it works fine
with clinchers & tubes, and tires don't fit
unreasonably tight either.

Same for the A23.

Mark J.
Do Velocity a23 in the OC rear and front have
traditional spoke holes to work with?

Deacon Mark

Yes they do. And American made.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
While I am at it the wheel I want to replace is Kinlin xc
279. They have about 10k miles on them and the rear wheel
has a hop now. I de-tensioned the spokes. I manage to get
the wheel centered and laterally pretty true certainly
within in .5 mm. The tension on the drive side is pretty
consistent on Park tool at all 23-25. The non-drive side
is a bit more out in place going farther and 20% off in
places. The problem is the hop is back in the wheel. To
correct it my guess is now way to really do this the rim
is just not able. Seems to me that radial truing is the
hardest and if off too much compared to the rest I should
get new rim? Correct? The bike actually rides fine with it
I just don't like the hop I can feel it riding.

Deacon Mark


My experience has been that a hop you can feel while riding
is often a deformed/bent rim. The truing experience you
describe also suggests bent rim. Except for emergency
kludges, bent rim means time for a new rim. It happens,
enjoy building the new one. Make sure to get tension high
enough, but 23-25 Park reading on 2mm spokes is plenty high.

Mark J.

At the upper end of that yes with 2mm straight spokes.

Velocity recommends 120nm (+/-10). '23' on the Park scale
is only 95nm.

You mean 95 kgf, I think.


d'oh.
Thank you
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Ok so I can rebuild the wheel and the spokes are good and the nipples. I cannot get a Kinlin xc 279 rim anymore. The ERD is 583 so checking around I see a DT Swiss 585 rim is cheap at $45 and the ERM is 282. If i rebuild using this rim will it probably work? What to the Las Vegas odds makers give me on the success of 1mm off. Could go with a dtswiss 520 rim at 584 but these are more money and pinned joint not welded.

Deacon Mark

Not sure if I understand the question, but: IF the question is, "can I
reuse spokes on a new rim with an ERD 2mm higher than the old rim?," My
answer would be: "If on the old build the spokes came to the bottom of
the nipple slot or higher, probably yes, but only with brass - not
aluminum - nipples."

Reasoning: 2mm increase in ERD means a 1mm increase in optimal spoke
length. On the new build, spoke ends will be 1mm lower relative to the
rim bed than on the old build. Ending up with spoke ends 1mm *below*
the bottom of the nipple slot isn't optimal, but you can probably get
away with it using brass nipples. Aluminum nipples used in this way are
known for breakage, with the nipple head breaking off right at the end
of the spoke.

PS - make sure the rim suits you in more ways than just similar ERD.
Better to pay for new spokes and get a rim that suits you than to keep
the old spokes and get a rim that doesn't meet your riding needs.

Mark J.

Good post. Getting spokes these days for a reasonable price is kind of a trick. Let me know if you have a source. Mine have dried up.

-- Jay Beattie.

There's a wheel building "Group" on Facebook that includes an ancillary
discussion group with stuff for sale. I just bought 2,000 nipples there
at a good price for the pro-bono community shop I associate with.

Got to say, though, much of the group's discussion these days is "Where
are *you* guys finding spokes?" I think a lot of sources are running
dry right now.

Mark J.

Op donderdag 10 september 2020 om 22:19:24 UTC+2 schreef Mark J.:
2000 nipples? How old do you think you will be?

Lou
There's a wheel building "Group" on Facebook that includes an ancillary
discussion group with stuff for sale. I just bought 2,000 nipples there
at a good price for the pro-bono community shop I associate with.

Got to say, though, much of the group's discussion these days is "Where
are *you* guys finding spokes?" I think a lot of sources are running
dry right now.

Mark J.

On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 5:47:19 PM UTC-5, wrote:
deleted
While I am at it the wheel I want to replace is Kinlin xc 279. They have about 10k miles on them and the rear wheel has a hop now. I de-tensioned the spokes. I manage to get the wheel centered and laterally pretty true certainly within in .5 mm. The tension on the drive side is pretty consistent on Park tool at all 23-25. The non-drive side is a bit more out in place going farther and 20% off in places. The problem is the hop is back in the wheel. To correct it my guess is now way to really do this the rim is just not able. Seems to me that radial truing is the hardest and if off too much compared to the rest I should get new rim? Correct? The bike actually rides fine with it I just don't like the hop I can feel it riding.

Deacon Mark

If the non-drive side is slack, then your weight can take all the tension off. Then the spoke is bent every time it goes by the road, and eventually start breaking. Sheldon Brown's suggestion is to do a radial spokes on the non- drive side. I did this and I stopped breaking spokes. https://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbu...ml#half-radial