Building wheels on tubeless rims using tube

On 9/10/2020 3:24 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op donderdag 10 september 2020 om 22:19:24 UTC+2 schreef Mark J.:
2000 nipples? How old do you think you will be?

It's for a shop, not for personal use. -MJ


Lou
There's a wheel building "Group" on Facebook that includes an ancillary
discussion group with stuff for sale. I just bought 2,000 nipples there
at a good price for the pro-bono community shop I associate with.

Got to say, though, much of the group's discussion these days is "Where
are *you* guys finding spokes?" I think a lot of sources are running
dry right now.

Mark J.

On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 5:47:19 PM UTC-5, Mark Cleary wrote:
On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 3:51:11 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/8/2020 2:15 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 11:46:38 AM UTC-5, Mark J. wrote:
On 9/8/2020 7:30 AM, wrote:
I want to build a set of wheels and I don't use tubeless and have clinchers. Seems most now are tubeless and some have holes to drive spokes through the rim and others don't. Anyone know which ones can have regular spoke holes and still be tubeless? My rim choices are

DT Swiss 411 or the 460
H and Son Archetype if I can find them
Possibly Velocity..........what do you like A23
HED
Kinlin

Basically I want to build a decent 32 spoke rim with Shimano Ultegra hubs radial front 3 cross rear. Not much in stock in most places. Finally how hard is it to build a wheel on tubeless with no spoke holes on outside?

Deacon Mark

I got 10,000 miles on a Velocity A23 "OC" rim with 24 spokes, 170lb/77kg
rider. 24 spokes was pushing it, so I'm reasonably happy with that
performance (rim died of cracks at the nipple holes).

Replaced with the DT 411 "OC" rim, still 24 spokes. DT "requires" and
supplies nipple washers with the rim, use 'em, it might hold off the cracks.

Both built well and held their true (well, the A23 was stable up to its
demise).

Don't recall if you've told us your weight, but I expect either the A23
or DT 411 would give many many years of service in 32 spoke.

PS - I haven't tried tubeless tires yet.
I can't find if the DT rim is supposed to be "tubeless ready" or not
(i.e. can be run tubeless with the correct rim liner), but it works fine
with clinchers & tubes, and tires don't fit unreasonably tight either.

Same for the A23.

Mark J.
Do Velocity a23 in the OC rear and front have traditional spoke holes to work with?

Deacon Mark

Yes they do. And American made.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
While I am at it the wheel I want to replace is Kinlin xc 279. They have about 10k miles on them and the rear wheel has a hop now. I de-tensioned the spokes. I manage to get the wheel centered and laterally pretty true certainly within in .5 mm. The tension on the drive side is pretty consistent on Park tool at all 23-25. The non-drive side is a bit more out in place going farther and 20% off in places. The problem is the hop is back in the wheel. To correct it my guess is now way to really do this the rim is just not able. Seems to me that radial truing is the hardest and if off too much compared to the rest I should get new rim? Correct? The bike actually rides fine with it I just don't like the hop I can feel it riding.

Deacon Mark
I got bored today and took the wheel completely apart. Removed the spokes cleaned them and the nipples. Rebuilt the wheel although spokes did not go back in exact same holes as such. Got it all trued for reasonably good lateral and tension within limits especially drive side all close. A ****ty no go wheel still has the crazy hop run out. Waste of time but good to keep my wheel lacing and building skills up by the redo. It does not seem to be in the seem as such so who knows...........but no more kinlin rims.

Deacon mark

Op vrijdag 11 september 2020 om 22:39:09 UTC+2 schreef :
On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 5:47:19 PM UTC-5, Mark Cleary wrote:
On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 3:51:11 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/8/2020 2:15 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 11:46:38 AM UTC-5, Mark J. wrote:
On 9/8/2020 7:30 AM, wrote:
I want to build a set of wheels and I don't use tubeless and have clinchers. Seems most now are tubeless and some have holes to drive spokes through the rim and others don't. Anyone know which ones can have regular spoke holes and still be tubeless? My rim choices are

DT Swiss 411 or the 460
H and Son Archetype if I can find them
Possibly Velocity..........what do you like A23
HED
Kinlin

Basically I want to build a decent 32 spoke rim with Shimano Ultegra hubs radial front 3 cross rear. Not much in stock in most places. Finally how hard is it to build a wheel on tubeless with no spoke holes on outside?

Deacon Mark

I got 10,000 miles on a Velocity A23 "OC" rim with 24 spokes, 170lb/77kg
rider. 24 spokes was pushing it, so I'm reasonably happy with that
performance (rim died of cracks at the nipple holes).

Replaced with the DT 411 "OC" rim, still 24 spokes. DT "requires" and
supplies nipple washers with the rim, use 'em, it might hold off the cracks.

Both built well and held their true (well, the A23 was stable up to its
demise).

Don't recall if you've told us your weight, but I expect either the A23
or DT 411 would give many many years of service in 32 spoke.

PS - I haven't tried tubeless tires yet.
I can't find if the DT rim is supposed to be "tubeless ready" or not
(i.e. can be run tubeless with the correct rim liner), but it works fine
with clinchers & tubes, and tires don't fit unreasonably tight either.

Same for the A23.

Mark J.
Do Velocity a23 in the OC rear and front have traditional spoke holes to work with?

Deacon Mark

Yes they do. And American made.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
While I am at it the wheel I want to replace is Kinlin xc 279. They have about 10k miles on them and the rear wheel has a hop now. I de-tensioned the spokes. I manage to get the wheel centered and laterally pretty true certainly within in .5 mm. The tension on the drive side is pretty consistent on Park tool at all 23-25. The non-drive side is a bit more out in place going farther and 20% off in places. The problem is the hop is back in the wheel. To correct it my guess is now way to really do this the rim is just not able. Seems to me that radial truing is the hardest and if off too much compared to the rest I should get new rim? Correct? The bike actually rides fine with it I just don't like the hop I can feel it riding.

Deacon Mark
I got bored today and took the wheel completely apart. Removed the spokes cleaned them and the nipples. Rebuilt the wheel although spokes did not go back in exact same holes as such. Got it all trued for reasonably good lateral and tension within limits especially drive side all close. A ****ty no go wheel still has the crazy hop run out. Waste of time but good to keep my wheel lacing and building skills up by the redo. It does not seem to be in the seem as such so who knows...........but no more kinlin rims.

Deacon mark


What is the deal to build your wheels yourself in the current age where you can buy very good quality complete wheelsets of the shelf in any price category.

Lou

On Friday, September 11, 2020 at 4:44:20 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Op vrijdag 11 september 2020 om 22:39:09 UTC+2 schreef :
On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 5:47:19 PM UTC-5, Mark Cleary wrote:
On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 3:51:11 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/8/2020 2:15 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 11:46:38 AM UTC-5, Mark J. wrote:
On 9/8/2020 7:30 AM, wrote:
I want to build a set of wheels and I don't use tubeless and have clinchers. Seems most now are tubeless and some have holes to drive spokes through the rim and others don't. Anyone know which ones can have regular spoke holes and still be tubeless? My rim choices are

DT Swiss 411 or the 460
H and Son Archetype if I can find them
Possibly Velocity..........what do you like A23
HED
Kinlin

Basically I want to build a decent 32 spoke rim with Shimano Ultegra hubs radial front 3 cross rear. Not much in stock in most places. Finally how hard is it to build a wheel on tubeless with no spoke holes on outside?

Deacon Mark

I got 10,000 miles on a Velocity A23 "OC" rim with 24 spokes, 170lb/77kg
rider. 24 spokes was pushing it, so I'm reasonably happy with that
performance (rim died of cracks at the nipple holes).

Replaced with the DT 411 "OC" rim, still 24 spokes. DT "requires" and
supplies nipple washers with the rim, use 'em, it might hold off the cracks.

Both built well and held their true (well, the A23 was stable up to its
demise).

Don't recall if you've told us your weight, but I expect either the A23
or DT 411 would give many many years of service in 32 spoke.

PS - I haven't tried tubeless tires yet.
I can't find if the DT rim is supposed to be "tubeless ready" or not
(i.e. can be run tubeless with the correct rim liner), but it works fine
with clinchers & tubes, and tires don't fit unreasonably tight either.

Same for the A23.

Mark J.
Do Velocity a23 in the OC rear and front have traditional spoke holes to work with?

Deacon Mark

Yes they do. And American made.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
While I am at it the wheel I want to replace is Kinlin xc 279. They have about 10k miles on them and the rear wheel has a hop now. I de-tensioned the spokes. I manage to get the wheel centered and laterally pretty true certainly within in .5 mm. The tension on the drive side is pretty consistent on Park tool at all 23-25. The non-drive side is a bit more out in place going farther and 20% off in places. The problem is the hop is back in the wheel. To correct it my guess is now way to really do this the rim is just not able. Seems to me that radial truing is the hardest and if off too much compared to the rest I should get new rim? Correct? The bike actually rides fine with it I just don't like the hop I can feel it riding.

Deacon Mark
I got bored today and took the wheel completely apart. Removed the spokes cleaned them and the nipples. Rebuilt the wheel although spokes did not go back in exact same holes as such. Got it all trued for reasonably good lateral and tension within limits especially drive side all close. A ****ty no go wheel still has the crazy hop run out. Waste of time but good to keep my wheel lacing and building skills up by the redo. It does not seem to be in the seem as such so who knows...........but no more kinlin rims.

Deacon mark
What is the deal to build your wheels yourself in the current age where you can buy very good quality complete wheelsets of the shelf in any price category.

Lou
None your right I am going to buy a set stupid to build cost more. At least I can check and do any final touch up they need

Deacon Mark

On Friday, September 11, 2020 at 2:48:18 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, September 11, 2020 at 4:44:20 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Op vrijdag 11 september 2020 om 22:39:09 UTC+2 schreef :
On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 5:47:19 PM UTC-5, Mark Cleary wrote:
On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 3:51:11 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/8/2020 2:15 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 11:46:38 AM UTC-5, Mark J. wrote:
On 9/8/2020 7:30 AM, wrote:
I want to build a set of wheels and I don't use tubeless and have clinchers. Seems most now are tubeless and some have holes to drive spokes through the rim and others don't. Anyone know which ones can have regular spoke holes and still be tubeless? My rim choices are

DT Swiss 411 or the 460
H and Son Archetype if I can find them
Possibly Velocity..........what do you like A23
HED
Kinlin

Basically I want to build a decent 32 spoke rim with Shimano Ultegra hubs radial front 3 cross rear. Not much in stock in most places. Finally how hard is it to build a wheel on tubeless with no spoke holes on outside?

Deacon Mark

I got 10,000 miles on a Velocity A23 "OC" rim with 24 spokes, 170lb/77kg
rider. 24 spokes was pushing it, so I'm reasonably happy with that
performance (rim died of cracks at the nipple holes).

Replaced with the DT 411 "OC" rim, still 24 spokes. DT "requires" and
supplies nipple washers with the rim, use 'em, it might hold off the cracks.

Both built well and held their true (well, the A23 was stable up to its
demise).

Don't recall if you've told us your weight, but I expect either the A23
or DT 411 would give many many years of service in 32 spoke.

PS - I haven't tried tubeless tires yet.
I can't find if the DT rim is supposed to be "tubeless ready" or not
(i.e. can be run tubeless with the correct rim liner), but it works fine
with clinchers & tubes, and tires don't fit unreasonably tight either.

Same for the A23.

Mark J.
Do Velocity a23 in the OC rear and front have traditional spoke holes to work with?

Deacon Mark

Yes they do. And American made.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
While I am at it the wheel I want to replace is Kinlin xc 279. They have about 10k miles on them and the rear wheel has a hop now. I de-tensioned the spokes. I manage to get the wheel centered and laterally pretty true certainly within in .5 mm. The tension on the drive side is pretty consistent on Park tool at all 23-25. The non-drive side is a bit more out in place going farther and 20% off in places. The problem is the hop is back in the wheel. To correct it my guess is now way to really do this the rim is just not able. Seems to me that radial truing is the hardest and if off too much compared to the rest I should get new rim? Correct? The bike actually rides fine with it I just don't like the hop I can feel it riding.

Deacon Mark
I got bored today and took the wheel completely apart. Removed the spokes cleaned them and the nipples. Rebuilt the wheel although spokes did not go back in exact same holes as such. Got it all trued for reasonably good lateral and tension within limits especially drive side all close. A ****ty no go wheel still has the crazy hop run out. Waste of time but good to keep my wheel lacing and building skills up by the redo. It does not seem to be in the seem as such so who knows...........but no more kinlin rims.

Deacon mark
What is the deal to build your wheels yourself in the current age where you can buy very good quality complete wheelsets of the shelf in any price category.

Lou
None your right I am going to buy a set stupid to build cost more. At least I can check and do any final touch up they need

I came to that conclusion years ago when I paid $250 for a set of Chinese Clinchers that performed perfectly. The weaving about in cross winds that Jay was complaining about usually means that the spokes do not have sufficient tension. I was lucky enough to get a set the first time with enough tension. They don't have any worse reaction to cross winds than a normal shallow rim wheel except in a very hard and sudden gust. And then it isn't that bad.

On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 9:08:31 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, September 11, 2020 at 2:48:18 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, September 11, 2020 at 4:44:20 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Op vrijdag 11 september 2020 om 22:39:09 UTC+2 schreef :
On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 5:47:19 PM UTC-5, Mark Cleary wrote:
On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 3:51:11 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/8/2020 2:15 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 11:46:38 AM UTC-5, Mark J. wrote:
On 9/8/2020 7:30 AM, wrote:
I want to build a set of wheels and I don't use tubeless and have clinchers. Seems most now are tubeless and some have holes to drive spokes through the rim and others don't. Anyone know which ones can have regular spoke holes and still be tubeless? My rim choices are

DT Swiss 411 or the 460
H and Son Archetype if I can find them
Possibly Velocity..........what do you like A23
HED
Kinlin

Basically I want to build a decent 32 spoke rim with Shimano Ultegra hubs radial front 3 cross rear. Not much in stock in most places. Finally how hard is it to build a wheel on tubeless with no spoke holes on outside?

Deacon Mark

I got 10,000 miles on a Velocity A23 "OC" rim with 24 spokes, 170lb/77kg
rider. 24 spokes was pushing it, so I'm reasonably happy with that
performance (rim died of cracks at the nipple holes).

Replaced with the DT 411 "OC" rim, still 24 spokes. DT "requires" and
supplies nipple washers with the rim, use 'em, it might hold off the cracks.

Both built well and held their true (well, the A23 was stable up to its
demise).

Don't recall if you've told us your weight, but I expect either the A23
or DT 411 would give many many years of service in 32 spoke.

PS - I haven't tried tubeless tires yet.
I can't find if the DT rim is supposed to be "tubeless ready" or not
(i.e. can be run tubeless with the correct rim liner), but it works fine
with clinchers & tubes, and tires don't fit unreasonably tight either.

Same for the A23.

Mark J.
Do Velocity a23 in the OC rear and front have traditional spoke holes to work with?

Deacon Mark

Yes they do. And American made.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
While I am at it the wheel I want to replace is Kinlin xc 279. They have about 10k miles on them and the rear wheel has a hop now. I de-tensioned the spokes. I manage to get the wheel centered and laterally pretty true certainly within in .5 mm. The tension on the drive side is pretty consistent on Park tool at all 23-25. The non-drive side is a bit more out in place going farther and 20% off in places. The problem is the hop is back in the wheel. To correct it my guess is now way to really do this the rim is just not able. Seems to me that radial truing is the hardest and if off too much compared to the rest I should get new rim? Correct? The bike actually rides fine with it I just don't like the hop I can feel it riding.

Deacon Mark
I got bored today and took the wheel completely apart. Removed the spokes cleaned them and the nipples. Rebuilt the wheel although spokes did not go back in exact same holes as such. Got it all trued for reasonably good lateral and tension within limits especially drive side all close. A ****ty no go wheel still has the crazy hop run out. Waste of time but good to keep my wheel lacing and building skills up by the redo. It does not seem to be in the seem as such so who knows...........but no more kinlin rims.

Deacon mark
What is the deal to build your wheels yourself in the current age where you can buy very good quality complete wheelsets of the shelf in any price category.

Lou
None your right I am going to buy a set stupid to build cost more. At least I can check and do any final touch up they need

I came to that conclusion years ago when I paid $250 for a set of Chinese Clinchers that performed perfectly. The weaving about in cross winds that Jay was complaining about usually means that the spokes do not have sufficient tension. I was lucky enough to get a set the first time with enough tension. They don't have any worse reaction to cross winds than a normal shallow rim wheel except in a very hard and sudden gust. And then it isn't that bad.

No, the weaving about in crosswinds means you're riding on sails. The wheels were plenty tight. There is no way you're not going to feel an almost 60mm deep rim in a crosswind. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-q8...CyclingNetwork

-- Jay Beattie.

On 9/13/2020 7:20 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 9:08:31 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:

I came to that conclusion years ago when I paid $250 for a set of Chinese Clinchers that performed perfectly. The weaving about in cross winds that Jay was complaining about usually means that the spokes do not have sufficient tension. I was lucky enough to get a set the first time with enough tension. They don't have any worse reaction to cross winds than a normal shallow rim wheel except in a very hard and sudden gust. And then it isn't that bad.

No, the weaving about in crosswinds means you're riding on sails. The wheels were plenty tight. There is no way you're not going to feel an almost 60mm deep rim in a crosswind. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-q8...CyclingNetwork

I agree with the "sails" remark. I'm not sure about the details of Tom's
beliefs, but he seems to imagine that slightly looser spokes make a
wheel less rigid. They don't, unless the spokes are so loose as to
completely lose tension. The fundamental fact is that the modulus of
elasticity doesn't change with stress, at least within reasonable limits.

I'd like to see more explanation of the "stall" effect mentioned in the
video. Seems to me the twitchiness could also be from a sideways aero
force - a lateral "lift" - before stall occurs, or even without stall
occurring.

One friend of mine rides deep section winds. Sorry, I don't remember the
brand. He concurs they are scary in crosswinds.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sunday, 13 September 2020 21:16:05 UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/13/2020 7:20 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 9:08:31 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:

I came to that conclusion years ago when I paid $250 for a set of Chinese Clinchers that performed perfectly. The weaving about in cross winds that Jay was complaining about usually means that the spokes do not have sufficient tension. I was lucky enough to get a set the first time with enough tension. They don't have any worse reaction to cross winds than a normal shallow rim wheel except in a very hard and sudden gust. And then it isn't that bad.

No, the weaving about in crosswinds means you're riding on sails. The wheels were plenty tight. There is no way you're not going to feel an almost 60mm deep rim in a crosswind. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-q8...CyclingNetwork

I agree with the "sails" remark. I'm not sure about the details of Tom's
beliefs, but he seems to imagine that slightly looser spokes make a
wheel less rigid. They don't, unless the spokes are so loose as to
completely lose tension. The fundamental fact is that the modulus of
elasticity doesn't change with stress, at least within reasonable limits.

I'd like to see more explanation of the "stall" effect mentioned in the
video. Seems to me the twitchiness could also be from a sideways aero
force - a lateral "lift" - before stall occurs, or even without stall
occurring.

One friend of mine rides deep section winds. Sorry, I don't remember the
brand. He concurs they are scary in crosswinds.


--
- Frank Krygowski

I wonder if "stall effect" is the proper term? It seems to me that a deep aero rim heading into the wind, acts a bit like an aeroplane wing. The deep 'V' of the original deep aero rims would have unequal pressures as the wind became less from straight ahead. Thus, just like an aeroplane wing, there'd be more pressure on one side than on the other and the wheel would tend to move to the side with the least pressure. The newer shapes shown in the video, were created to reduce that effect.

Deep aero rim are bad enough in steady cross-winds but can be quite exciting in strong gusting cross-winds.

Cheers

On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 4:20:58 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 9:08:31 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, September 11, 2020 at 2:48:18 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, September 11, 2020 at 4:44:20 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Op vrijdag 11 september 2020 om 22:39:09 UTC+2 schreef :
On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 5:47:19 PM UTC-5, Mark Cleary wrote:
On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 3:51:11 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/8/2020 2:15 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 11:46:38 AM UTC-5, Mark J. wrote:
On 9/8/2020 7:30 AM, wrote:
I want to build a set of wheels and I don't use tubeless and have clinchers. Seems most now are tubeless and some have holes to drive spokes through the rim and others don't. Anyone know which ones can have regular spoke holes and still be tubeless? My rim choices are

DT Swiss 411 or the 460
H and Son Archetype if I can find them
Possibly Velocity..........what do you like A23
HED
Kinlin

Basically I want to build a decent 32 spoke rim with Shimano Ultegra hubs radial front 3 cross rear. Not much in stock in most places. Finally how hard is it to build a wheel on tubeless with no spoke holes on outside?

Deacon Mark

I got 10,000 miles on a Velocity A23 "OC" rim with 24 spokes, 170lb/77kg
rider. 24 spokes was pushing it, so I'm reasonably happy with that
performance (rim died of cracks at the nipple holes).

Replaced with the DT 411 "OC" rim, still 24 spokes. DT "requires" and
supplies nipple washers with the rim, use 'em, it might hold off the cracks.

Both built well and held their true (well, the A23 was stable up to its
demise).

Don't recall if you've told us your weight, but I expect either the A23
or DT 411 would give many many years of service in 32 spoke.

PS - I haven't tried tubeless tires yet.
I can't find if the DT rim is supposed to be "tubeless ready" or not
(i.e. can be run tubeless with the correct rim liner), but it works fine
with clinchers & tubes, and tires don't fit unreasonably tight either.

Same for the A23.

Mark J.
Do Velocity a23 in the OC rear and front have traditional spoke holes to work with?

Deacon Mark

Yes they do. And American made.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
While I am at it the wheel I want to replace is Kinlin xc 279. They have about 10k miles on them and the rear wheel has a hop now. I de-tensioned the spokes. I manage to get the wheel centered and laterally pretty true certainly within in .5 mm. The tension on the drive side is pretty consistent on Park tool at all 23-25. The non-drive side is a bit more out in place going farther and 20% off in places. The problem is the hop is back in the wheel. To correct it my guess is now way to really do this the rim is just not able. Seems to me that radial truing is the hardest and if off too much compared to the rest I should get new rim? Correct? The bike actually rides fine with it I just don't like the hop I can feel it riding.

Deacon Mark
I got bored today and took the wheel completely apart. Removed the spokes cleaned them and the nipples. Rebuilt the wheel although spokes did not go back in exact same holes as such. Got it all trued for reasonably good lateral and tension within limits especially drive side all close. A ****ty no go wheel still has the crazy hop run out. Waste of time but good to keep my wheel lacing and building skills up by the redo. It does not seem to be in the seem as such so who knows...........but no more kinlin rims.

Deacon mark
What is the deal to build your wheels yourself in the current age where you can buy very good quality complete wheelsets of the shelf in any price category.

Lou
None your right I am going to buy a set stupid to build cost more. At least I can check and do any final touch up they need

I came to that conclusion years ago when I paid $250 for a set of Chinese Clinchers that performed perfectly. The weaving about in cross winds that Jay was complaining about usually means that the spokes do not have sufficient tension. I was lucky enough to get a set the first time with enough tension. They don't have any worse reaction to cross winds than a normal shallow rim wheel except in a very hard and sudden gust. And then it isn't that bad.
No, the weaving about in crosswinds means you're riding on sails. The wheels were plenty tight. There is no way you're not going to feel an almost 60mm deep rim in a crosswind. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-q8...CyclingNetwork

-- Jay Beattie.
I ride them in gusting winds all of the time and I also had Campy Neurons which were very shallow box rims. I could not tell a difference between the 50's and the Neurons in a gust.

On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 6:16:05 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/13/2020 7:20 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 9:08:31 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:

I came to that conclusion years ago when I paid $250 for a set of Chinese Clinchers that performed perfectly. The weaving about in cross winds that Jay was complaining about usually means that the spokes do not have sufficient tension. I was lucky enough to get a set the first time with enough tension. They don't have any worse reaction to cross winds than a normal shallow rim wheel except in a very hard and sudden gust. And then it isn't that bad.

No, the weaving about in crosswinds means you're riding on sails. The wheels were plenty tight. There is no way you're not going to feel an almost 60mm deep rim in a crosswind. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-q8...CyclingNetwork
I agree with the "sails" remark. I'm not sure about the details of Tom's
beliefs, but he seems to imagine that slightly looser spokes make a
wheel less rigid. They don't, unless the spokes are so loose as to
completely lose tension. The fundamental fact is that the modulus of
elasticity doesn't change with stress, at least within reasonable limits.

I'd like to see more explanation of the "stall" effect mentioned in the
video. Seems to me the twitchiness could also be from a sideways aero
force - a lateral "lift" - before stall occurs, or even without stall
occurring.

One friend of mine rides deep section winds. Sorry, I don't remember the
brand. He concurs they are scary in crosswinds.

Unlike some worthless piece of crap like you my "beliefs" are founded upon experience. I know I hit my head on a tree limb overhanding the bicycle lane because I did. Unlike you I didn't try to explain that I didn't from thousands of miles away. Most real engineers would realize that the tire itself is the furthest distance from the center of rotation on the steering mechanism on a bicycle and that it would have the overwhelming effect on the steering from a gust. But you being a stupid moron wouldn't even think for one second before making your Bidenesque pronouncements. That a deep wheel has the same effect in both directions and is only effected by the small variations caused by trail.

Have you been getting hair plugs like Biden so that you could be even more like your hero?