Building wheels on tubeless rims using tube

On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 6:48:02 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, 13 September 2020 21:16:05 UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/13/2020 7:20 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 9:08:31 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:

I came to that conclusion years ago when I paid $250 for a set of Chinese Clinchers that performed perfectly. The weaving about in cross winds that Jay was complaining about usually means that the spokes do not have sufficient tension. I was lucky enough to get a set the first time with enough tension. They don't have any worse reaction to cross winds than a normal shallow rim wheel except in a very hard and sudden gust. And then it isn't that bad.

No, the weaving about in crosswinds means you're riding on sails. The wheels were plenty tight. There is no way you're not going to feel an almost 60mm deep rim in a crosswind. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-q8...CyclingNetwork

I agree with the "sails" remark. I'm not sure about the details of Tom's
beliefs, but he seems to imagine that slightly looser spokes make a
wheel less rigid. They don't, unless the spokes are so loose as to
completely lose tension. The fundamental fact is that the modulus of
elasticity doesn't change with stress, at least within reasonable limits.

I'd like to see more explanation of the "stall" effect mentioned in the
video. Seems to me the twitchiness could also be from a sideways aero
force - a lateral "lift" - before stall occurs, or even without stall
occurring.

One friend of mine rides deep section winds. Sorry, I don't remember the
brand. He concurs they are scary in crosswinds.


--
- Frank Krygowski
I wonder if "stall effect" is the proper term? It seems to me that a deep aero rim heading into the wind, acts a bit like an aeroplane wing. The deep 'V' of the original deep aero rims would have unequal pressures as the wind became less from straight ahead. Thus, just like an aeroplane wing, there'd be more pressure on one side than on the other and the wheel would tend to move to the side with the least pressure. The newer shapes shown in the video, were created to reduce that effect.

Deep aero rim are bad enough in steady cross-winds but can be quite exciting in strong gusting cross-winds.

Cheers
Maybe you should watch some of the early videos of Hambini. He explains it pretty well - there is no "straight ahead" in winds. There might be in cases, mostly ahead.

You know, I've been riding 55 mm deep carbon rims for the last 7 years and to listen to you guys talk about it it is plain you haven't. Either that or you've never ridden shallow rim wheels.

On 9/13/2020 9:47 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, 13 September 2020 21:16:05 UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/13/2020 7:20 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 9:08:31 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:

I came to that conclusion years ago when I paid $250 for a set of Chinese Clinchers that performed perfectly. The weaving about in cross winds that Jay was complaining about usually means that the spokes do not have sufficient tension. I was lucky enough to get a set the first time with enough tension. They don't have any worse reaction to cross winds than a normal shallow rim wheel except in a very hard and sudden gust. And then it isn't that bad.

No, the weaving about in crosswinds means you're riding on sails. The wheels were plenty tight. There is no way you're not going to feel an almost 60mm deep rim in a crosswind. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-q8...CyclingNetwork

I agree with the "sails" remark. I'm not sure about the details of Tom's
beliefs, but he seems to imagine that slightly looser spokes make a
wheel less rigid. They don't, unless the spokes are so loose as to
completely lose tension. The fundamental fact is that the modulus of
elasticity doesn't change with stress, at least within reasonable limits.

I'd like to see more explanation of the "stall" effect mentioned in the
video. Seems to me the twitchiness could also be from a sideways aero
force - a lateral "lift" - before stall occurs, or even without stall
occurring.

One friend of mine rides deep section winds. Sorry, I don't remember the
brand. He concurs they are scary in crosswinds.


--
- Frank Krygowski

I wonder if "stall effect" is the proper term? It seems to me that a deep aero rim heading into the wind, acts a bit like an aeroplane wing. The deep 'V' of the original deep aero rims would have unequal pressures as the wind became less from straight ahead. Thus, just like an aeroplane wing, there'd be more pressure on one side than on the other and the wheel would tend to move to the side with the least pressure.

Yes, we agree. That's exactly what I meant by "lateral lift."

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 8:34:53 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 4:20:58 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 9:08:31 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, September 11, 2020 at 2:48:18 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, September 11, 2020 at 4:44:20 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Op vrijdag 11 september 2020 om 22:39:09 UTC+2 schreef :
On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 5:47:19 PM UTC-5, Mark Cleary wrote:
On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 3:51:11 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/8/2020 2:15 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 11:46:38 AM UTC-5, Mark J. wrote:
On 9/8/2020 7:30 AM, wrote:
I want to build a set of wheels and I don't use tubeless and have clinchers. Seems most now are tubeless and some have holes to drive spokes through the rim and others don't. Anyone know which ones can have regular spoke holes and still be tubeless? My rim choices are

DT Swiss 411 or the 460
H and Son Archetype if I can find them
Possibly Velocity..........what do you like A23
HED
Kinlin

Basically I want to build a decent 32 spoke rim with Shimano Ultegra hubs radial front 3 cross rear. Not much in stock in most places. Finally how hard is it to build a wheel on tubeless with no spoke holes on outside?

Deacon Mark

I got 10,000 miles on a Velocity A23 "OC" rim with 24 spokes, 170lb/77kg
rider. 24 spokes was pushing it, so I'm reasonably happy with that
performance (rim died of cracks at the nipple holes).

Replaced with the DT 411 "OC" rim, still 24 spokes. DT "requires" and
supplies nipple washers with the rim, use 'em, it might hold off the cracks.

Both built well and held their true (well, the A23 was stable up to its
demise).

Don't recall if you've told us your weight, but I expect either the A23
or DT 411 would give many many years of service in 32 spoke.

PS - I haven't tried tubeless tires yet.
I can't find if the DT rim is supposed to be "tubeless ready" or not
(i.e. can be run tubeless with the correct rim liner), but it works fine
with clinchers & tubes, and tires don't fit unreasonably tight either.

Same for the A23.

Mark J.
Do Velocity a23 in the OC rear and front have traditional spoke holes to work with?

Deacon Mark

Yes they do. And American made.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
While I am at it the wheel I want to replace is Kinlin xc 279.. They have about 10k miles on them and the rear wheel has a hop now. I de-tensioned the spokes. I manage to get the wheel centered and laterally pretty true certainly within in .5 mm. The tension on the drive side is pretty consistent on Park tool at all 23-25. The non-drive side is a bit more out in place going farther and 20% off in places. The problem is the hop is back in the wheel. To correct it my guess is now way to really do this the rim is just not able. Seems to me that radial truing is the hardest and if off too much compared to the rest I should get new rim? Correct? The bike actually rides fine with it I just don't like the hop I can feel it riding.

Deacon Mark
I got bored today and took the wheel completely apart. Removed the spokes cleaned them and the nipples. Rebuilt the wheel although spokes did not go back in exact same holes as such. Got it all trued for reasonably good lateral and tension within limits especially drive side all close. A ****ty no go wheel still has the crazy hop run out. Waste of time but good to keep my wheel lacing and building skills up by the redo. It does not seem to be in the seem as such so who knows...........but no more kinlin rims..

Deacon mark
What is the deal to build your wheels yourself in the current age where you can buy very good quality complete wheelsets of the shelf in any price category.

Lou
None your right I am going to buy a set stupid to build cost more. At least I can check and do any final touch up they need

I came to that conclusion years ago when I paid $250 for a set of Chinese Clinchers that performed perfectly. The weaving about in cross winds that Jay was complaining about usually means that the spokes do not have sufficient tension. I was lucky enough to get a set the first time with enough tension. They don't have any worse reaction to cross winds than a normal shallow rim wheel except in a very hard and sudden gust. And then it isn't that bad.
No, the weaving about in crosswinds means you're riding on sails. The wheels were plenty tight. There is no way you're not going to feel an almost 60mm deep rim in a crosswind. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-q8...CyclingNetwork

-- Jay Beattie.
I ride them in gusting winds all of the time and I also had Campy Neurons which were very shallow box rims. I could not tell a difference between the 50's and the Neurons in a gust.

I could tell the difference with 58mm Zipp 404 Firecrests. I didn't like it, and it is a well known effect -- and resulted in a redesign and the new NSW. https://www.feedthehabit.com/gear-re...rake-wheelset/
Interestingly, this guy is complaining about gusts in Utah canyons, exactly where I found them unpleasant. I've done lots of canyons on standard 24-35mm rims and gotten blown around but didn't feel like my wheels were acting as sails. YMMV.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 4:20:58 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 9:08:31 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, September 11, 2020 at 2:48:18 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, September 11, 2020 at 4:44:20 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Op vrijdag 11 september 2020 om 22:39:09 UTC+2 schreef :
On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 5:47:19 PM UTC-5, Mark Cleary wrote:
On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 3:51:11 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/8/2020 2:15 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 11:46:38 AM UTC-5, Mark J. wrote:
On 9/8/2020 7:30 AM, wrote:
I want to build a set of wheels and I don't use tubeless and have clinchers. Seems most now are tubeless and some have holes to drive spokes through the rim and others don't. Anyone know which ones can have regular spoke holes and still be tubeless? My rim choices are

DT Swiss 411 or the 460
H and Son Archetype if I can find them
Possibly Velocity..........what do you like A23
HED
Kinlin

Basically I want to build a decent 32 spoke rim with Shimano Ultegra hubs radial front 3 cross rear. Not much in stock in most places. Finally how hard is it to build a wheel on tubeless with no spoke holes on outside?

Deacon Mark

I got 10,000 miles on a Velocity A23 "OC" rim with 24 spokes, 170lb/77kg
rider. 24 spokes was pushing it, so I'm reasonably happy with that
performance (rim died of cracks at the nipple holes).

Replaced with the DT 411 "OC" rim, still 24 spokes. DT "requires" and
supplies nipple washers with the rim, use 'em, it might hold off the cracks.

Both built well and held their true (well, the A23 was stable up to its
demise).

Don't recall if you've told us your weight, but I expect either the A23
or DT 411 would give many many years of service in 32 spoke.

PS - I haven't tried tubeless tires yet.
I can't find if the DT rim is supposed to be "tubeless ready" or not
(i.e. can be run tubeless with the correct rim liner), but it works fine
with clinchers & tubes, and tires don't fit unreasonably tight either.

Same for the A23.

Mark J.
Do Velocity a23 in the OC rear and front have traditional spoke holes to work with?

Deacon Mark

Yes they do. And American made.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
While I am at it the wheel I want to replace is Kinlin xc 279. They have about 10k miles on them and the rear wheel has a hop now. I de-tensioned the spokes. I manage to get the wheel centered and laterally pretty true certainly within in .5 mm. The tension on the drive side is pretty consistent on Park tool at all 23-25. The non-drive side is a bit more out in place going farther and 20% off in places. The problem is the hop is back in the wheel. To correct it my guess is now way to really do this the rim is just not able. Seems to me that radial truing is the hardest and if off too much compared to the rest I should get new rim? Correct? The bike actually rides fine with it I just don't like the hop I can feel it riding.

Deacon Mark
I got bored today and took the wheel completely apart. Removed the spokes cleaned them and the nipples. Rebuilt the wheel although spokes did not go back in exact same holes as such. Got it all trued for reasonably good lateral and tension within limits especially drive side all close. A ****ty no go wheel still has the crazy hop run out. Waste of time but good to keep my wheel lacing and building skills up by the redo. It does not seem to be in the seem as such so who knows...........but no more kinlin rims.

Deacon mark
What is the deal to build your wheels yourself in the current age where you can buy very good quality complete wheelsets of the shelf in any price category.

Lou
None your right I am going to buy a set stupid to build cost more. At least I can check and do any final touch up they need

I came to that conclusion years ago when I paid $250 for a set of Chinese Clinchers that performed perfectly. The weaving about in cross winds that Jay was complaining about usually means that the spokes do not have sufficient tension. I was lucky enough to get a set the first time with enough tension. They don't have any worse reaction to cross winds than a normal shallow rim wheel except in a very hard and sudden gust. And then it isn't that bad.
No, the weaving about in crosswinds means you're riding on sails. The wheels were plenty tight. There is no way you're not going to feel an almost 60mm deep rim in a crosswind. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-q8...CyclingNetwork

I see you're another fan of GCN. I watched them until those morons started talking about institutional racism in America! This coming from people that murdered or sold into slavery 2/3rds the population of Ireland just because they could and not even for gain. A country that held half of the world in bond for 200 years. Go watch their videos as if you could teach yourself something from them

On 9/14/2020 9:53 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 8:34:53 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 4:20:58 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 9:08:31 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, September 11, 2020 at 2:48:18 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, September 11, 2020 at 4:44:20 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Op vrijdag 11 september 2020 om 22:39:09 UTC+2 schreef :
On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 5:47:19 PM UTC-5, Mark Cleary wrote:
On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 3:51:11 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/8/2020 2:15 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 11:46:38 AM UTC-5, Mark J. wrote:
On 9/8/2020 7:30 AM, wrote:
I want to build a set of wheels and I don't use tubeless and have clinchers. Seems most now are tubeless and some have holes to drive spokes through the rim and others don't. Anyone know which ones can have regular spoke holes and still be tubeless? My rim choices are

DT Swiss 411 or the 460
H and Son Archetype if I can find them
Possibly Velocity..........what do you like A23
HED
Kinlin

Basically I want to build a decent 32 spoke rim with Shimano Ultegra hubs radial front 3 cross rear. Not much in stock in most places. Finally how hard is it to build a wheel on tubeless with no spoke holes on outside?

Deacon Mark

I got 10,000 miles on a Velocity A23 "OC" rim with 24 spokes, 170lb/77kg
rider. 24 spokes was pushing it, so I'm reasonably happy with that
performance (rim died of cracks at the nipple holes).

Replaced with the DT 411 "OC" rim, still 24 spokes. DT "requires" and
supplies nipple washers with the rim, use 'em, it might hold off the cracks.

Both built well and held their true (well, the A23 was stable up to its
demise).

Don't recall if you've told us your weight, but I expect either the A23
or DT 411 would give many many years of service in 32 spoke.

PS - I haven't tried tubeless tires yet.
I can't find if the DT rim is supposed to be "tubeless ready" or not
(i.e. can be run tubeless with the correct rim liner), but it works fine
with clinchers & tubes, and tires don't fit unreasonably tight either.

Same for the A23.

Mark J.
Do Velocity a23 in the OC rear and front have traditional spoke holes to work with?

Deacon Mark

Yes they do. And American made.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
While I am at it the wheel I want to replace is Kinlin xc 279. They have about 10k miles on them and the rear wheel has a hop now. I de-tensioned the spokes. I manage to get the wheel centered and laterally pretty true certainly within in .5 mm. The tension on the drive side is pretty consistent on Park tool at all 23-25. The non-drive side is a bit more out in place going farther and 20% off in places. The problem is the hop is back in the wheel. To correct it my guess is now way to really do this the rim is just not able. Seems to me that radial truing is the hardest and if off too much compared to the rest I should get new rim? Correct? The bike actually rides fine with it I just don't like the hop I can feel it riding.

Deacon Mark
I got bored today and took the wheel completely apart. Removed the spokes cleaned them and the nipples. Rebuilt the wheel although spokes did not go back in exact same holes as such. Got it all trued for reasonably good lateral and tension within limits especially drive side all close. A ****ty no go wheel still has the crazy hop run out. Waste of time but good to keep my wheel lacing and building skills up by the redo. It does not seem to be in the seem as such so who knows...........but no more kinlin rims.

Deacon mark
What is the deal to build your wheels yourself in the current age where you can buy very good quality complete wheelsets of the shelf in any price category.

Lou
None your right I am going to buy a set stupid to build cost more. At least I can check and do any final touch up they need

I came to that conclusion years ago when I paid $250 for a set of Chinese Clinchers that performed perfectly. The weaving about in cross winds that Jay was complaining about usually means that the spokes do not have sufficient tension. I was lucky enough to get a set the first time with enough tension. They don't have any worse reaction to cross winds than a normal shallow rim wheel except in a very hard and sudden gust. And then it isn't that bad.
No, the weaving about in crosswinds means you're riding on sails. The wheels were plenty tight. There is no way you're not going to feel an almost 60mm deep rim in a crosswind. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-q8...CyclingNetwork

-- Jay Beattie.
I ride them in gusting winds all of the time and I also had Campy Neurons which were very shallow box rims. I could not tell a difference between the 50's and the Neurons in a gust.

I could tell the difference with 58mm Zipp 404 Firecrests. I didn't like it, and it is a well known effect -- and resulted in a redesign and the new NSW. https://www.feedthehabit.com/gear-re...rake-wheelset/
Interestingly, this guy is complaining about gusts in Utah canyons, exactly where I found them unpleasant. I've done lots of canyons on standard 24-35mm rims and gotten blown around but didn't feel like my wheels were acting as sails. YMMV.

-- Jay Beattie.


Just out of curiosity, does Zipp anywhere say what "NSW" is supposed to
stand for? Best I can get from their web page is to guess "Newly Sawed
Whales." Or perhaps they are just 3 random letters?

Mark J.

On 9/14/2020 10:46 AM, Mark J. wrote:
On 9/14/2020 9:53 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 8:34:53 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 4:20:58 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 9:08:31 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, September 11, 2020 at 2:48:18 PM UTC-7,
wrote:
On Friday, September 11, 2020 at 4:44:20 PM UTC-5,
wrote:
Op vrijdag 11 september 2020 om 22:39:09 UTC+2 schreef
:
On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 5:47:19 PM UTC-5, Mark Cleary
wrote:
On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 3:51:11 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/8/2020 2:15 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 11:46:38 AM UTC-5, Mark J.
wrote:
On 9/8/2020 7:30 AM, wrote:
I want to build a set of wheels and I don't use tubeless
and have clinchers. Seems most now are tubeless and some
have holes to drive spokes through the rim and others
don't. Anyone know which ones can have regular spoke holes
and still be tubeless? My rim choices are

DT Swiss 411 or the 460
H and Son Archetype if I can find them
Possibly Velocity..........what do you like A23
HED
Kinlin

Basically I want to build a decent 32 spoke rim with
Shimano Ultegra hubs radial front 3 cross rear. Not much in
stock in most places. Finally how hard is it to build a
wheel on tubeless with no spoke holes on outside?

Deacon Mark

I got 10,000 miles on a Velocity A23 "OC" rim with 24
spokes, 170lb/77kg
rider. 24 spokes was pushing it, so I'm reasonably happy
with that
performance (rim died of cracks at the nipple holes).

Replaced with the DT 411 "OC" rim, still 24 spokes. DT
"requires" and
supplies nipple washers with the rim, use 'em, it might hold
off the cracks.

Both built well and held their true (well, the A23 was
stable up to its
demise).

Don't recall if you've told us your weight, but I expect
either the A23
or DT 411 would give many many years of service in 32 spoke.

PS - I haven't tried tubeless tires yet.
I can't find if the DT rim is supposed to be "tubeless
ready" or not
(i.e. can be run tubeless with the correct rim liner), but
it works fine
with clinchers & tubes, and tires don't fit unreasonably
tight either.

Same for the A23.

Mark J.
Do Velocity a23 in the OC rear and front have traditional
spoke holes to work with?

Deacon Mark

Yes they do. And American made.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
While I am at it the wheel I want to replace is Kinlin xc 279.
They have about 10k miles on them and the rear wheel has a hop
now. I de-tensioned the spokes. I manage to get the wheel
centered and laterally pretty true certainly within in .5 mm.
The tension on the drive side is pretty consistent on Park tool
at all 23-25. The non-drive side is a bit more out in place
going farther and 20% off in places. The problem is the hop is
back in the wheel. To correct it my guess is now way to really
do this the rim is just not able. Seems to me that radial
truing is the hardest and if off too much compared to the rest
I should get new rim? Correct? The bike actually rides fine
with it I just don't like the hop I can feel it riding.

Deacon Mark
I got bored today and took the wheel completely apart. Removed
the spokes cleaned them and the nipples. Rebuilt the wheel
although spokes did not go back in exact same holes as such. Got
it all trued for reasonably good lateral and tension within
limits especially drive side all close. A ****ty no go wheel
still has the crazy hop run out. Waste of time but good to keep
my wheel lacing and building skills up by the redo. It does not
seem to be in the seem as such so who knows...........but no
more kinlin rims.

Deacon mark
What is the deal to build your wheels yourself in the current age
where you can buy very good quality complete wheelsets of the
shelf in any price category.

Lou
None your right I am going to buy a set stupid to build cost more.
At least I can check and do any final touch up they need

I came to that conclusion years ago when I paid $250 for a set of
Chinese Clinchers that performed perfectly. The weaving about in
cross winds that Jay was complaining about usually means that the
spokes do not have sufficient tension. I was lucky enough to get a
set the first time with enough tension. They don't have any worse
reaction to cross winds than a normal shallow rim wheel except in a
very hard and sudden gust. And then it isn't that bad.
No, the weaving about in crosswinds means you're riding on sails.
The wheels were plenty tight. There is no way you're not going to
feel an almost 60mm deep rim in a crosswind.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-q8...CyclingNetwork


-- Jay Beattie.
I ride them in gusting winds all of the time and I also had Campy
Neurons which were very shallowÂ* box rims. IÂ* could not tell a
difference between the 50's and the Neurons in a gust.

I could tell the difference with 58mm Zipp 404 Firecrests. I didn't
like it, and it is a well known effect -- and resulted in a redesign
and the new NSW.
https://www.feedthehabit.com/gear-re...rake-wheelset/

Interestingly, this guy is complaining about gusts in Utah canyons,
exactly where I found them unpleasant. I've done lots of canyons on
standard 24-35mm rims and gotten blown around but didn't feel like my
wheels were acting as sails. YMMV.

-- Jay Beattie.


Just out of curiosity, does Zipp anywhere say what "NSW" is supposed to
stand for? Best I can get from their web page is to guess "Newly Sawed
Whales."Â* Or perhaps they are just 3 random letters?

Mark J.

Never mind. Google is your friend. "Nest Speed Weaponry" Makes your
nest go faster. Or helps you achieve "Nest Speed," which is cozier than
warp speed.

Mark J.

On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 7:30:41 AM UTC-7, wrote:
I want to build a set of wheels and I don't use tubeless and have clinchers. Seems most now are tubeless and some have holes to drive spokes through the rim and others don't. Anyone know which ones can have regular spoke holes and still be tubeless? My rim choices are

DT Swiss 411 or the 460
H and Son Archetype if I can find them
Possibly Velocity..........what do you like A23
HED
Kinlin

Basically I want to build a decent 32 spoke rim with Shimano Ultegra hubs radial front 3 cross rear. Not much in stock in most places. Finally how hard is it to build a wheel on tubeless with no spoke holes on outside?

Deacon Mark
I have a set of these and I like them. They are tubeless/clincher but clincher tires mount easily on them and that is the way I use them. https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/pro-lite/wheels

On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 8:25:43 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 7:30:41 AM UTC-7, wrote:
I want to build a set of wheels and I don't use tubeless and have clinchers. Seems most now are tubeless and some have holes to drive spokes through the rim and others don't. Anyone know which ones can have regular spoke holes and still be tubeless? My rim choices are

DT Swiss 411 or the 460
H and Son Archetype if I can find them
Possibly Velocity..........what do you like A23
HED
Kinlin

Basically I want to build a decent 32 spoke rim with Shimano Ultegra hubs radial front 3 cross rear. Not much in stock in most places. Finally how hard is it to build a wheel on tubeless with no spoke holes on outside?
It's a f******* pain in the ass! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXeZ...l=LightBicycle This is just one method, and all methods are at least as tedious.

I regret buying tubeless and tubeless ready rims because I never run tubeless, and they're miserable for mounting ordinary clinchers. I strongly recommend ordinary clinchers. With latex tubes, RR is as good. https://cyclingtips.com/2020/08/tube...-france-stage/

The author of that article wonders why Specialized/Roval didn't offer the Rapide wheel in a tubless design:

"What’s also somewhat confounding is that, in a race scenario, there is no benefit to a tubed clincher over a tubeless tire. They are no faster and lack the self-healing sealant of a tubeless setup. We still find it odd that the new Roval wheels aren’t tubeless, and we haven’t yet heard a satisfactory explanation."

Here's the explanation: Specialized got tired of customers and dealers who couldn't mount tubeless correctly. They were more trouble than they were worth.

They still have some lower-end Rovals -- including a pair my son is sending me at this very moment -- that are tubeless ready. I'm getting a set as a second pair for my gravel bike and have been promised that they are easy to mount tires on, otherwise I would buy them. I get them super-cheap, too, which makes it more palatable. If I were building a wheel and wanted tubeless compatibility, I'd buy an A23 or something like it that is basically an ordinary clincher rim with ordinary, accessible spoke holes.

I agree that most "tubeless ready" rims are a pain to use but some have a wide enough center well so that mounting clinchers is only slightly harder than on a pure clincher rim. A friend of mine has some Kyseriums and they are IMPOSSIBLE to mount "tubeless tires" on. There is no clincher well at all.. The base of the inner surface is perfectly flat.

Op maandag 14 september 2020 om 18:53:06 UTC+2 schreef jbeattie:
On Monday, September 14, 2020 at 8:34:53 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 4:20:58 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 9:08:31 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, September 11, 2020 at 2:48:18 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, September 11, 2020 at 4:44:20 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Op vrijdag 11 september 2020 om 22:39:09 UTC+2 schreef :
On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 5:47:19 PM UTC-5, Mark Cleary wrote:
On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 3:51:11 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/8/2020 2:15 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 11:46:38 AM UTC-5, Mark J. wrote:
On 9/8/2020 7:30 AM, wrote:
I want to build a set of wheels and I don't use tubeless and have clinchers. Seems most now are tubeless and some have holes to drive spokes through the rim and others don't. Anyone know which ones can have regular spoke holes and still be tubeless? My rim choices are

DT Swiss 411 or the 460
H and Son Archetype if I can find them
Possibly Velocity..........what do you like A23
HED
Kinlin

Basically I want to build a decent 32 spoke rim with Shimano Ultegra hubs radial front 3 cross rear. Not much in stock in most places. Finally how hard is it to build a wheel on tubeless with no spoke holes on outside?

Deacon Mark

I got 10,000 miles on a Velocity A23 "OC" rim with 24 spokes, 170lb/77kg
rider. 24 spokes was pushing it, so I'm reasonably happy with that
performance (rim died of cracks at the nipple holes).

Replaced with the DT 411 "OC" rim, still 24 spokes. DT "requires" and
supplies nipple washers with the rim, use 'em, it might hold off the cracks.

Both built well and held their true (well, the A23 was stable up to its
demise).

Don't recall if you've told us your weight, but I expect either the A23
or DT 411 would give many many years of service in 32 spoke.

PS - I haven't tried tubeless tires yet.
I can't find if the DT rim is supposed to be "tubeless ready" or not
(i.e. can be run tubeless with the correct rim liner), but it works fine
with clinchers & tubes, and tires don't fit unreasonably tight either.

Same for the A23.

Mark J.
Do Velocity a23 in the OC rear and front have traditional spoke holes to work with?

Deacon Mark

Yes they do. And American made.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
While I am at it the wheel I want to replace is Kinlin xc 279. They have about 10k miles on them and the rear wheel has a hop now. I de-tensioned the spokes. I manage to get the wheel centered and laterally pretty true certainly within in .5 mm. The tension on the drive side is pretty consistent on Park tool at all 23-25. The non-drive side is a bit more out in place going farther and 20% off in places. The problem is the hop is back in the wheel. To correct it my guess is now way to really do this the rim is just not able. Seems to me that radial truing is the hardest and if off too much compared to the rest I should get new rim? Correct? The bike actually rides fine with it I just don't like the hop I can feel it riding.

Deacon Mark
I got bored today and took the wheel completely apart. Removed the spokes cleaned them and the nipples. Rebuilt the wheel although spokes did not go back in exact same holes as such. Got it all trued for reasonably good lateral and tension within limits especially drive side all close. A ****ty no go wheel still has the crazy hop run out. Waste of time but good to keep my wheel lacing and building skills up by the redo. It does not seem to be in the seem as such so who knows...........but no more kinlin rims.

Deacon mark
What is the deal to build your wheels yourself in the current age where you can buy very good quality complete wheelsets of the shelf in any price category.

Lou
None your right I am going to buy a set stupid to build cost more.. At least I can check and do any final touch up they need

I came to that conclusion years ago when I paid $250 for a set of Chinese Clinchers that performed perfectly. The weaving about in cross winds that Jay was complaining about usually means that the spokes do not have sufficient tension. I was lucky enough to get a set the first time with enough tension. They don't have any worse reaction to cross winds than a normal shallow rim wheel except in a very hard and sudden gust. And then it isn't that bad.
No, the weaving about in crosswinds means you're riding on sails. The wheels were plenty tight. There is no way you're not going to feel an almost 60mm deep rim in a crosswind. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-q8...CyclingNetwork

-- Jay Beattie.
I ride them in gusting winds all of the time and I also had Campy Neurons which were very shallow box rims. I could not tell a difference between the 50's and the Neurons in a gust.
I could tell the difference with 58mm Zipp 404 Firecrests. I didn't like it, and it is a well known effect -- and resulted in a redesign and the new NSW. https://www.feedthehabit.com/gear-re...rake-wheelset/
Interestingly, this guy is complaining about gusts in Utah canyons, exactly where I found them unpleasant. I've done lots of canyons on standard 24-35mm rims and gotten blown around but didn't feel like my wheels were acting as sails. YMMV.

-- Jay Beattie.

Strange that Tom doesn't feel a difference in reaction to crosswinds between a 30 mm rim and a 60 mm rim. I do.

Lou

Op maandag 14 september 2020 om 19:42:45 UTC+2 schreef :
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 4:20:58 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, September 13, 2020 at 9:08:31 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, September 11, 2020 at 2:48:18 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, September 11, 2020 at 4:44:20 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Op vrijdag 11 september 2020 om 22:39:09 UTC+2 schreef :
On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 5:47:19 PM UTC-5, Mark Cleary wrote:
On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 3:51:11 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/8/2020 2:15 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 11:46:38 AM UTC-5, Mark J. wrote:
On 9/8/2020 7:30 AM, wrote:
I want to build a set of wheels and I don't use tubeless and have clinchers. Seems most now are tubeless and some have holes to drive spokes through the rim and others don't. Anyone know which ones can have regular spoke holes and still be tubeless? My rim choices are

DT Swiss 411 or the 460
H and Son Archetype if I can find them
Possibly Velocity..........what do you like A23
HED
Kinlin

Basically I want to build a decent 32 spoke rim with Shimano Ultegra hubs radial front 3 cross rear. Not much in stock in most places. Finally how hard is it to build a wheel on tubeless with no spoke holes on outside?

Deacon Mark

I got 10,000 miles on a Velocity A23 "OC" rim with 24 spokes, 170lb/77kg
rider. 24 spokes was pushing it, so I'm reasonably happy with that
performance (rim died of cracks at the nipple holes).

Replaced with the DT 411 "OC" rim, still 24 spokes. DT "requires" and
supplies nipple washers with the rim, use 'em, it might hold off the cracks.

Both built well and held their true (well, the A23 was stable up to its
demise).

Don't recall if you've told us your weight, but I expect either the A23
or DT 411 would give many many years of service in 32 spoke.

PS - I haven't tried tubeless tires yet.
I can't find if the DT rim is supposed to be "tubeless ready" or not
(i.e. can be run tubeless with the correct rim liner), but it works fine
with clinchers & tubes, and tires don't fit unreasonably tight either.

Same for the A23.

Mark J.
Do Velocity a23 in the OC rear and front have traditional spoke holes to work with?

Deacon Mark

Yes they do. And American made.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
While I am at it the wheel I want to replace is Kinlin xc 279.. They have about 10k miles on them and the rear wheel has a hop now. I de-tensioned the spokes. I manage to get the wheel centered and laterally pretty true certainly within in .5 mm. The tension on the drive side is pretty consistent on Park tool at all 23-25. The non-drive side is a bit more out in place going farther and 20% off in places. The problem is the hop is back in the wheel. To correct it my guess is now way to really do this the rim is just not able. Seems to me that radial truing is the hardest and if off too much compared to the rest I should get new rim? Correct? The bike actually rides fine with it I just don't like the hop I can feel it riding.

Deacon Mark
I got bored today and took the wheel completely apart. Removed the spokes cleaned them and the nipples. Rebuilt the wheel although spokes did not go back in exact same holes as such. Got it all trued for reasonably good lateral and tension within limits especially drive side all close. A ****ty no go wheel still has the crazy hop run out. Waste of time but good to keep my wheel lacing and building skills up by the redo. It does not seem to be in the seem as such so who knows...........but no more kinlin rims..

Deacon mark
What is the deal to build your wheels yourself in the current age where you can buy very good quality complete wheelsets of the shelf in any price category.

Lou
None your right I am going to buy a set stupid to build cost more. At least I can check and do any final touch up they need

I came to that conclusion years ago when I paid $250 for a set of Chinese Clinchers that performed perfectly. The weaving about in cross winds that Jay was complaining about usually means that the spokes do not have sufficient tension. I was lucky enough to get a set the first time with enough tension. They don't have any worse reaction to cross winds than a normal shallow rim wheel except in a very hard and sudden gust. And then it isn't that bad.
No, the weaving about in crosswinds means you're riding on sails. The wheels were plenty tight. There is no way you're not going to feel an almost 60mm deep rim in a crosswind. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-q8...CyclingNetwork
I see you're another fan of GCN. I watched them until those morons started talking about institutional racism in America! This coming from people that murdered or sold into slavery 2/3rds the population of Ireland just because they could and not even for gain. A country that held half of the world in bond for 200 years. Go watch their videos as if you could teach yourself something from them

I could say the same about some people in the USA interfere with our 'Zwarte Piet' discussion we have here at the moment. I think you have bigger problems at home to solve first.

Lou