Types of old-school steel frames - categories?

Hi there.

What were/are the differences between a steel frame designed for road racing, a steel frame designed for criterium racing and a steel frame designd for something like the cobblestone races Brest to Paris?

Are all leather saddles such as Brooks still used by many of those three categories of racing?

Cheers

On 2/25/2013 2:33 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
Hi there.

What were/are the differences between a steel frame designed for road racing, a steel frame designed for criterium racing and a steel frame designd for something like the cobblestone races Brest to Paris?

Are all leather saddles such as Brooks still used by many of those three categories of racing?

Cheers


Differences in material thickness, wheelbase, BB drop.
No, no one races leather saddles AFAIK.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 26/02/13 07:33, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
Hi there.

What were/are the differences between a steel frame designed for road
racing, a steel frame designed for criterium racing and a steel frame
designd for something like the cobblestone races Brest to Paris?

Road racing frames should have a balance of comfort and agility. You
don't want the steering too sharp or too lazy, for example. You don't
want the ride to be too soft and spongy when it comes to a sprint, but
you also don't want it to rigid and uncomfortable for long races - that
contributes to fatigue.

A crit frame may have a higher BB to facilitate pedaling through corners
with more lean before pedal strike, and possibly with slightly more
twitchy steering and shorter wheelbase.

On cobbles and the like, I'd guess more tyre clearance to fit and easily
change wheels with 27 - 28 mm tyres, and a bit more compliance in the
whole system to smooth the bumps.

These days a lot can be done to change the feel by using different
diameter and wall thickness of steel tube. But I doubt it's relevant to
most, with the rise of CFRP frames. Steel race bikes are a thing of the
past in most circles. Consequently I'm happy to win the odd club race
on my steel frame bike. I'd be even more excited to win on a bike with
a wood frame - natures carbon fibre that is ;-)

Would that be NCFRR "Natural Carbon Fibre Reinforced Resin"?

Are all leather saddles such as Brooks still used by many of those
three categories of racing?

I doubt it, but could be proved wrong.

--
JS

here on the dteet info was P-R was largely ignored as a spec race then came Cancellera with new treads but here a landislide

https://www.google.com/#hl=en&sclien...1152& bih=610

more buy muh bike ?

On Monday, February 25, 2013 7:05:37 PM UTC-5, datakoll wrote:
here on the dteet info was P-R was largely ignored as a spec race then came Cancellera with new treads but here a landislide



https://www.google.com/#hl=en&sclien...1152& bih=610



more buy muh bike ?

^^^^^^

the Domane is interesting,,,,butt overall ?

wonder where the patent is for the post mechanism ?

"Sir Ridesalot" wrote in message
...
Hi there.

What were/are the differences between a steel frame designed for road
racing, a steel frame designed for criterium racing and a steel frame
designd for something like the cobblestone races Brest to Paris?

Are all leather saddles such as Brooks still used by many of those three
categories of racing?

Cheers

Frame angles, fork rake.Try Google and search for articles on Bike Geometry

On Feb 25, 8:33*pm, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
Hi there.

What were/are the differences between a steel frame designed for road racing, a steel frame designed for criterium racing and a steel frame designd for something like the cobblestone races Brest to Paris?

Criterium bike will have the least steering trail, "normal" fork rake
with 74 or 75 degree steer angle, which works well for when weight is
well forward all the time and the race is relatively short. Will
likely be designed around 23mm tyres and should have enough to run
25mm. Uses shortest calipers at both ends. Wheelbase will be as
short as posssible, there will not be room to get little finger
between rear tyre and a straight seat tube. Seat angle will be
appropriate to get weight forward. Getting 45% of weight on the front
wheel in a relaxed position (back in seat) is the usual aim. Tubing
can be basic stuff except for the fork blades, light blades pay off.
Cranks are likely to be chosen short and crank bracket high to enable
up to 40 degree lean (be careful of the negative camber) Top tube
likely to be low (so the frame size is small) to get the handlebars
down.

Road racing frameset should have more steering trail. Designed around
the most suitable tyres for rider weight which will likely be 24mm or
25mm tubs for the taller and heavier rider on longer days (still 23mm
for the flyweight). May want more room for 28mm wet tyres,
particularly on the rear. Can go with thinner (more expensive) tubes
on the main frame if suitable for the rider (and his sponsor's pocket)

With cobblestones+stuff, will almost certainly be wanting 26mm to 28mm
tubs + mud clearance. Little steering trail is desired (so short
trail like a crit bike) else one can get rutted-in. The rider will
likely appreciate the thinnest seat stays, seat tube and top tube but
if he is to win he's out of the saddle on the rough stuff and so a
hard frame, although not good to maintain grip may give the required
encouragement where it matters.

Differences in frame feel may be subtle (they are all light(ish)
diamond racing frames) but when combined with variations in wheel
build (rims and spokes), do have dramatic differences. It's not simply
tyre choice.


Are all leather saddles such as Brooks still used by many of those three categories of racing?

Rare in the extreme. The reason being that most racing is shorter
(under 4 hours) than that where a leather saddle shows overall gains
(2hrs+). Conceivably it may be used where a criterium rider remains
in the saddle through the corners. It's a rare breed who can do this
and match the acceleration of those who learnt to get out the saddle
at the apex of the turn.

On Feb 26, 4:30*pm, thirty-six wrote:
On Feb 25, 8:33*pm, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

Hi there.

What were/are the differences between a steel frame designed for road racing, a steel frame designed for criterium racing and a steel frame designd for something like the cobblestone races Brest to Paris?

Criterium bike will have the least steering trail, "normal" fork rake
with 74 or 75 degree steer angle, which works well for when weight is
well forward all the time and the race is relatively short. *Will
likely be designed around 23mm tyres and should have enough to run
25mm. *Uses shortest calipers at both ends. *Wheelbase will be as
short as posssible, there will not be room to get little finger
between rear tyre and a straight seat tube. *Seat angle will be
appropriate to get weight forward. *Getting 45% of weight on the front
wheel in a relaxed position (back in seat) is the usual aim. *Tubing
can be basic stuff except for the fork blades, light blades pay off.
Cranks are likely to be chosen short and crank bracket high to enable
up to 40 degree lean (be careful of the negative camber) *Top tube
likely to be low (so the frame size is small) to get the handlebars
down.

Road racing frameset should have more steering trail. Designed around
the most suitable tyres for rider weight which will likely be 24mm or
25mm tubs for the taller and heavier rider on longer days (still 23mm
for the flyweight). *May want more room for 28mm wet tyres,
particularly on the rear. *Can go with thinner (more expensive) tubes
on the main frame if suitable for the rider (and his sponsor's pocket)

With cobblestones+stuff, will almost certainly be wanting 26mm to 28mm
tubs + mud clearance. *Little steering trail is desired (so short
trail like a crit bike) else one can get rutted-in. The rider will
likely appreciate the thinnest seat stays, seat tube and top tube but
if he is to win he's out of the saddle on the rough stuff and so a
hard frame, although not good to maintain grip may give the required
encouragement where it matters.

Differences in frame feel may be subtle (they are all light(ish)
diamond racing frames) but when combined with variations in wheel
build (rims and spokes), do have dramatic differences. It's not simply
tyre choice.



Are all leather saddles such as Brooks still used by many of those three categories of racing?

Rare in the extreme. * The reason being that most racing is shorter
(under 4 hours) than that where a leather saddle shows overall gains
(2hrs+). *Conceivably it may be used where a criterium rider remains
in the saddle through the corners. *It's a rare breed who can do this
and match the acceleration of those who learnt to get out the saddle
at the apex of the turn.

Pro riders chose to use plastic saddles partly because if a bike was
stolen then it and saddle could be easily replaced and be ready to
race. A Brooks saddle takes at least 3 hours of riding to "break-in"
after heavily damping it. It then needs to naturally dry which will
take 24 hours to be sure it does not twist. These are the absolute
shortest times to prepare a saddle, and even if the rider has
sufficient notice, he's possibly going to get a sore bum from forcing
that saddlle in to shape in one day, not exactly the best pre-race
preparation. With no saddles already broken-in the pro cannot ride
effectively, unless he uses a plastic saddle. Commercial
considerations will also sway his choice today. Amateurs generally
follow what the pro's do or what their peers do, not what their
grandparents did.

As many professional race bikes are at the imposed weight limit today,
there is the opportunity for yet again promoting the leather saddle.

On Monday, February 25, 2013 2:33:48 PM UTC-6, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
Hi there.



What were/are the differences between a steel frame designed for road racing, a steel frame designed for criterium racing and a steel frame designd for something like the cobblestone races Brest to Paris?



Are all leather saddles such as Brooks still used by many of those three categories of racing?



Cheers


Leather saddles were made obsolete in 1962.

On Mar 1, 3:24*pm, "Blue Heeler" wrote:
landotter wrote:
Leather saddles were made obsolete in 1962.

Tempting though it is to take issue with you, my new year resolution
prevents me....

A question however, why 1962? What happened then that in your opinion
made all leather saddles obsolete?

Cinelli introduced the Unicanitor. http://www.cinelli.it/memorabilia/eng/012.html
I'm still riding one -- along with my daily use Turbo.

-- Jay Beattie.