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Critical
Here's an item from NY:
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2008/12/16-3 You may have seen this elsewhere. Jobst Brandt |
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#2
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Critical
On Dec 17, 7:53*pm, wrote:
Here's an item from NY: *http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2008/12/16-3 You may have seen this elsewhere. Jobst Brandt Police over-reactions cannot be condoned, but what do you say about Critical Mass? IMHO, it does bike riders at large more harm than good. |
#3
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Critical
"Ron Wallenfang" wrote in message
... Police over-reactions cannot be condoned, but what do you say about Critical Mass? IMHO, it does bike riders at large more harm than good. Oooh, there's a question which has never been asked before. Wait - isn't there some archival system for usenet where you can check such things out? |
#4
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Critical
On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 18:03:13 -0800 (PST), Ron Wallenfang
wrote: On Dec 17, 7:53*pm, wrote: Here's an item from NY: *http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2008/12/16-3 You may have seen this elsewhere. Jobst Brandt Police over-reactions cannot be condoned, but what do you say about Critical Mass? IMHO, it does bike riders at large more harm than good. Your comments remind me of stuff we hear sometimes when cyclists are hit by drivers: "Well, it's too bad that person got hit. But so many cyclists run red lights. I'm not blaming that specific cyclist, but really cyclists ought to behave better..." |
#5
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Critical
On Dec 17, 6:03 pm, Ron Wallenfang wrote:
On Dec 17, 7:53 pm, wrote: Here's an item from NY: http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2008/12/16-3 You may have seen this elsewhere. Jobst Brandt Police over-reactions cannot be condoned... Sounds like the most serious charges have to do with falsifying official reports in an effort to fabricate a justification for the "over-reaction" (the frame-up cover-up) I saw that video before, and while it notably did not show what the bicyclist must obviously have done to **** off that cop so badly (I'm thinking maybe flipped him off and/or maybe weaved around as if to possibly veer toward him), by the time the bike got close the rider was clearly not trying to hit the cop, and the cop's actions were outrageous. ... but what do you say about Critical Mass? Well, I think it might be kind of an over-reaction, if you will, and probably a bastion of some ad-hoc anarchists, but the way things are out there it could require some dramatic action to even get people thinking about sharing the road. IMHO, it does bike riders at large more harm than good. People probably said the same thing about Civil Rights demonstrations, and you may be right - at least among some people and in the short term. I guess Critical Mass can be kind of belligerent, but it seems like so many people really don't think bikes belong on the roads at all, and if this gets them to consider the matter, one way or another, and they begin to learn the law instead of just carrying their ignorant notions around to the detriment of cyclists everywhere, well... |
#6
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Critical
In article ,
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote: On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 18:03:13 -0800 (PST), Ron Wallenfang wrote: On Dec 17, 7:53*pm, wrote: Here's an item from NY: *http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2008/12/16-3 You may have seen this elsewhere. Jobst Brandt Police over-reactions cannot be condoned, but what do you say about Critical Mass? IMHO, it does bike riders at large more harm than good. Your comments remind me of stuff we hear sometimes when cyclists are hit by drivers: "Well, it's too bad that person got hit. But so many cyclists run red lights. I'm not blaming that specific cyclist, but really cyclists ought to behave better..." Well, Critical Mass is a form of civil disobedience. Generally speaking, however, it's most effective when the purpose of the civil disobedience is clearly promulgated so that onlookers get the point. For many bystanders, Critical Mass is just a form of hooliganism and does not communicate the desired message. As a result of this, Critical Mass is basically an incompetent form of civil disobedience and probably is not providing a net benefit for cyclists. |
#7
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Critical
On Dec 17, 7:17*pm, Tim McNamara wrote:
In article , *John Forrest Tomlinson wrote: On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 18:03:13 -0800 (PST), Ron Wallenfang wrote: On Dec 17, 7:53*pm, wrote: Here's an item from NY: *http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2008/12/16-3 You may have seen this elsewhere. Jobst Brandt Police over-reactions cannot be condoned, but what do you say about Critical Mass? *IMHO, it does bike riders at large more harm than good. Your comments remind me of stuff we hear sometimes when cyclists are hit by drivers: "Well, it's too bad that person got hit. But so many cyclists run red lights. I'm not blaming that specific cyclist, but really cyclists ought to behave better..." Well, Critical Mass is a form of civil disobedience. *Generally speaking, however, it's most effective when the purpose of the civil disobedience is clearly promulgated so that onlookers get the point. * For many bystanders, Critical Mass is just a form of hooliganism and does not communicate the desired message. *As a result of this, Critical Mass is basically an incompetent form of civil disobedience and probably is not providing a net benefit for cyclists.- Hide quoted text - Even hooligans have rights, regrettably. -- Anton Scalia. |
#8
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Critical
On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 21:17:58 -0600, Tim McNamara
wrote: Well, Critical Mass is a form of civil disobedience. Not always true. Lots or most of Critical Mass participants in my city break no laws at all, though they disobey police orders to not ride on the street. The courts have routinely said the police don't have the power to give such order and have tossed tickets and arrests based on them. |
#9
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Critical
On Thu, 18 Dec 2008 04:11:42 GMT, John Forrest Tomlinson
wrote: On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 21:17:58 -0600, Tim McNamara wrote: Well, Critical Mass is a form of civil disobedience. Not always true. Lots or most of Critical Mass participants in my city break no laws at all, though they disobey police orders to not ride on the street. The courts have routinely said the police don't have the power to give such order and have tossed tickets and arrests based on them. One other thing -- that's some Manhattan Critical Masses. Supposedly in Brooklyn Critical Mass typically doesn't have any police or government action against it at all - it's just a bunch of people riding bikes in the streets legally. Doesn't get as much news coverage... |
#10
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Critical
Hi,
Dan O wrote: Well, I think it might be kind of an over-reaction, if you will, and probably a bastion of some ad-hoc anarchists, but the way things are out there it could require some dramatic action to even get people thinking about sharing the road. Well, I don't really know about the U.S. but living in an overcrowded country in Middle Europe, I see basically the same thing all the time: When I go by bike, I get "mobbed" by car drivers in the worst possible way: they overtake on my left when I signal to turn left, they use their horns at me in the middle of an empty street, I've even had a few drivers pulling into my way while overtaking me and a bus driver trying to push me out of the road... When I talk to people some say "no bikes on the street but only on the sidewalk" or similar and when I tell them I simply cannot use the bike path on the sidewalk because of any one reason, they tell me I have to do this, anyway... Government responds with a change in traffic laws - they remove any trace of minimum requirements for bike lanes from the law. The result is ever more cars on the road, ever more roads built and car drivers getting actually more aggressive all the time. But not only cars, also the number of bike riders and public transport users increased over the last few years noticeably. What do the authorities do? They talk about "environmental protection" and build more roads. The public transport has been improved marginally, but is having serious trouble with overcrowding and too much use... Actually, try to buy a train ticket for yourself and your bike - that is almost plain impossible by now. In my opinion, traffic rules have been good as they are right now back in the 1950's to th 1970's - but with today's overcrowding and with *many* people driving cars that don't even speak the local language, they are too complicated and unusable - even the traffic police and judges don't know all the rules. For cars I suggest the following: inside towns 20km/h max speed (~12mph) outside towns 40km/h max speed (~25mph) on speed-ways 60km/h max speed (~40mph) with the cars limited to 70km/h by technical means Sure, a strict enforcement... First of all, distances are not too great here, second this would eliminate many rules and tons of signs and third safety would increase greatly by the reduced top speeds. And - people would have an incentive to go by bike: it's faster ;-) As for anything else, I do not think that even a change in legislation that would make it mandatory for bicyclists to use the roads would have any effect whatsoever (riding the sidewalk is forbidden here in absence of special traffic signs, still everyone does it). Nobody really knows the laws or cares for them - so I think the laws should be changed that they are simple and easy-to-understand... So lets have a few days of holidays and hope for a accident-free 2009 ;-) Ciao... |
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