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Euphemism for Illegal Mountain Bike Trails: "Gray Trails"



 
 
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  #81  
Old June 7th 07, 05:50 AM posted to alt.mountain-bike,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.backcountry,ca.environment,sci.environment
Wolf Leverich
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 43
Default Euphemism for Illegal Mountain Bike Trails: "Gray Trails"

On 2007-06-07, userfriendly wrote:
"Wolf Leverich" wrote in message
:
: These aren't references; these are paid shills for ExxonMobil.
: If you want to talk about science, go to the refereed journals,
: read the measurements and the interpretations, and then come
: back and explain why the actual climate scientists are wrong.
:
Thanks man- I really appreciate you showing what you really are. It
wouldn't matter who I quoted or what. Anyone who disagrees with the
politically-orthodox point of view is deemed worthless and therefore
discounted. That's the way most religion operates as well. No wonder
Americans trust neither science nor religion.



Nope, the POV is irrelevant. I wouldn't trust a sociologist funded by
Osama bin Laden to tell me that climate change was real and man-made.
All of your sources had the "sociologist funded by bin Laden" problem.

Go find people with relevant skills who are funded by neutral sources
and quote what they are saying. Or get good at the applied mathematics
and physics of atmospheric modeling, collect your own data, do your own
modeling, and share it with the world.

The "science as religion" meme seems to be popular with wingnuts
because it would give them the same license to believe whatever
poppycock they choose about how the physical universe works, the
same way they can choose whether to believe in Yahweh, God, Allah,
or the cosmic donkey. The physical world doesn't work like faith,
though: it is what it is, and wishful thinking doesn't change it
and letting loose of reality can get you spanked pretty roundly by
Mother Nature.

Cheers, Wolf.

Ads
  #82  
Old June 7th 07, 03:22 PM posted to alt.mountain-bike,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.backcountry,ca.environment,sci.environment
Mike Vandeman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,798
Default Euphemism for Illegal Mountain Bike Trails: "Gray Trails"

On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 03:49:53 -0000, SGK wrote:

On Jun 5, 6:59 pm, Mike Vandeman wrote:
On Tue, 5 Jun 2007 13:56:25 -0400, "userfriendly"



wrote:
"Wolf Leverich" wrote in message
...
: On 2007-06-05, userfriendly wrote:
:
: http://www.michaelcrichton.com/speec...omplexity.html
:
: Enjoy the education...
:
:
: Quoting Michael Crichton about science is absurd.
:
: He was a pre-med majoring in Anthropology at Harvard. That
: probably doesn't mean anything to an average Joe, but to any
: Harvard graduate that pretty well tells you he's a guy who
: wanted to make it to med school but couldn't cut it in the
: hard sciences.
:
: If you're going to quote someone about science, at least try to
: find a guy who made it past "Physics for Poets".
:
Aaaahhh- attack the source because you can't deal with the facts. Shame-
that one doesn't work on me.


Maybe if you COULD find a reliable source, there might be a reason to
listen. Apparently, you COULDN'T, so you used Michael Crichton
instead.
--
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande


But you never have....and please do...still waiting who that source in
Vancouver BC is..maybe some day


I'm protecting them from threats and harrassment by mountain bikers.
You know how they are!
--
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
  #83  
Old June 7th 07, 03:35 PM posted to alt.mountain-bike,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.backcountry,ca.environment,sci.environment
Mike Vandeman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,798
Default Euphemism for Illegal Mountain Bike Trails: "Gray Trails"

On Wed, 6 Jun 2007 10:33:51 -0400, "userfriendly"
wrote:

: Maybe if you COULD find a reliable source, there might be a reason to
: listen. Apparently, you COULDN'T, so you used Michael Crichton
: instead.

http://www.oism.org/pproject/s33p36.htm

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110008220

http://www.junkscience.com/


Oh, right. The Wall Street Journal is a scientific journal. Right.
--
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
  #84  
Old June 7th 07, 03:39 PM posted to alt.mountain-bike,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.backcountry,ca.environment,sci.environment
Mike Vandeman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,798
Default Euphemism for Illegal Mountain Bike Trails: "Gray Trails"

On Wed, 6 Jun 2007 22:00:11 -0400, "userfriendly"
wrote:

"Wolf Leverich" wrote in message
...
: On 2007-06-06, userfriendly wrote:
: : Maybe if you COULD find a reliable source, there might be a reason to
: : listen. Apparently, you COULDN'T, so you used Michael Crichton
: : instead.
:
: http://www.oism.org/pproject/s33p36.htm
:
: LOL! That paper is worse than bad science, it was
: actually a fraud job that ****ed off the National Academy
: of Science.
:
: The authors were Arthur B. Robinson who conducts research
: on protein chemistry and on nutrition and predictive and
: preventive medicine, Robinson's 22-year-old son, Zachary,
: and astrophysicists Sallie L. Baliunas and Willie Soon.
:
: These guys were funded by Scaife, and are employed by a
: couple of those right-wing nut factories.
:
: ###
:
: http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110008220
:
: Richard Lindzen is one of the few academics with relevant
: credentials who disputes global warming.
:
: He also does $2500/day consulting gigs for the oil
: industry, and refuses to accept a real-money bets on
: the planet's temperature 20 years from now unless
: the person on the other side of the bet offers 50:1
: odds in Lindzen's favor.
:
: So Lindzen is pretty open about the fact he's whoring
: for the oil industry.
:
: ###
:
: http://www.junkscience.com/
:
: JunkScience.com is a website maintained by Steven J. Milloy,
: an "adjunct scholar" the Cato Institute and the Competitive
: Enterprise Institute - right wing think tanks with long
: histories of denying environmental problems at the behest of
: the corporations which fund them. Milloy is also a columnist
: for FoxNews.com.
:
: Milloy is not even close to a climate scientist in training.
:
: Milloy has received thousands of dollars in payments from the
: Phillip Morris company since the early nineties (he shilled
: for them, arguing tobacco isn't carcenogenic), and NGOs
: controlled by Milloy have received large payments from ExxonMobil.
:
: ###
:
: These aren't references; these are paid shills for ExxonMobil.
: If you want to talk about science, go to the refereed journals,
: read the measurements and the interpretations, and then come
: back and explain why the actual climate scientists are wrong.
:
: And don't republish bull****. It's as bad as straight-out
: being a liar.
:
: Cheers, Wolf.
:
Thanks man- I really appreciate you showing what you really are. It
wouldn't matter who I quoted or what. Anyone who disagrees with the
politically-orthodox point of view is deemed worthless and therefore
discounted. That's the way most religion operates as well. No wonder
Americans trust neither science nor religion.


You were asked for a reliable source. You couldn't produce one. Not
even ONE! QED
--
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
  #85  
Old June 7th 07, 03:43 PM posted to alt.mountain-bike,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.backcountry,ca.environment,sci.environment
Mike Vandeman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,798
Default Euphemism for Illegal Mountain Bike Trails: "Gray Trails"

On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 02:52:56 GMT, Bill wrote:

Mike Vandeman wrote:
On Tue, 05 Jun 2007 23:26:57 GMT, Bill wrote:

y_p_w wrote:
On Jun 5, 9:30 am, "Wolf Leverich" wrote:
On 2007-06-05, userfriendly wrote:

http://www.michaelcrichton.com/speec...omplexity.html
Enjoy the education...
Quoting Michael Crichton about science is absurd.

He was a pre-med majoring in Anthropology at Harvard. That
probably doesn't mean anything to an average Joe, but to any
Harvard graduate that pretty well tells you he's a guy who
wanted to make it to med school but couldn't cut it in the
hard sciences.
Crichton is a Harvard Med School graduate. That being said, his
politics seems to trump any really scientific basis for his claims on
global warming.

At what point did this go to quoting Crichton or anyone else?
Trails....
I ride them when I find them and do so non-destructively, often
following a deer path in the deep woods.
How does anyone find this to be destructive?


The science says it is: http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/scb7. That's
one reason that riding "deer trails" is illegal.


I read a fair part of that and it referred to the haul ass and skid kind
of riding that teenagers and a few twenty somethings do. My riding is to
not only respect the land but to explore, and I definitely pack out
whatever I take in with me, even to the point of taking out other
people's junk.


Nonsense. The riding in these studies was extremely mild. Read it
again. And they STILL proved that mountain biking impacts are greater
than those of hiking.

If I am correct this was Vandeman's excuse for ragging on mountain
motorcycle riders, which then spilled over to include bicycle riders.
What next, illegal trail walking?
There is a big difference between bicycle trail riders who respect the
land they are riding on and the motorcycle set, most of whom could care
less about any damage they do.
Make that distinction and this might be a worthwhile thread.
Bill (pedal powered) Baka


Why are you talking about motorcyclists? We are talking about mountain
bikers. There's no disagreement on motorcycling being harmful.


I agree with you there since I have been (rarely) passed by motorcycles
on trails where they were definitely illegal. As I mentioned above I am
a passive mountain biker out to enjoy nature, not to trample it. I might
get to the point of picking a fight if I found somebody carelessly
tossing beer cans around the trails. I may be in the minority, but if it
is worth the effort to ride to once I would like it to be in the same
condition the next time I go there. That is my personal sanctuary from
the overcrowding of the city/town environment. The worst I have done is
to scare a bear and we both took off in opposite directions, fast.
Bill Baka


Then explain why you need the crutch of haing a bike with you. Are you
incapable of walking? The ONLY reason for bringing along a bike is to
get somewhere faster, or get farther than you can walk. Neither are
worthy goals.
--
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
  #86  
Old June 8th 07, 02:37 AM posted to alt.mountain-bike,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.backcountry,ca.environment,sci.environment
userfriendly
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 48
Default Euphemism for Illegal Mountain Bike Trails: "Gray Trails"

"Wolf Leverich" wrote in message
...
: On 2007-06-07, userfriendly wrote:
: "Wolf Leverich" wrote in message
: :
: : These aren't references; these are paid shills for ExxonMobil.
: : If you want to talk about science, go to the refereed journals,
: : read the measurements and the interpretations, and then come
: : back and explain why the actual climate scientists are wrong.
: :
: Thanks man- I really appreciate you showing what you really are. It
: wouldn't matter who I quoted or what. Anyone who disagrees with the
: politically-orthodox point of view is deemed worthless and therefore
: discounted. That's the way most religion operates as well. No wonder
: Americans trust neither science nor religion.
:
:
: Nope, the POV is irrelevant. I wouldn't trust a sociologist funded by
: Osama bin Laden to tell me that climate change was real and man-made.
: All of your sources had the "sociologist funded by bin Laden" problem.
:
: Go find people with relevant skills who are funded by neutral sources
: and quote what they are saying. Or get good at the applied mathematics
: and physics of atmospheric modeling, collect your own data, do your own
: modeling, and share it with the world.

And your guys are not funded by people with an agenda?
Umm...r-i-i-i-i-i-g-h-t...

:
: The "science as religion" meme seems to be popular with wingnuts
: because it would give them the same license to believe whatever
: poppycock they choose about how the physical universe works, the
: same way they can choose whether to believe in Yahweh, God, Allah,
: or the cosmic donkey. The physical world doesn't work like faith,
: though: it is what it is, and wishful thinking doesn't change it
: and letting loose of reality can get you spanked pretty roundly by
: Mother Nature.

For me, it's not science as religion. You don't read well, do you?


  #87  
Old June 8th 07, 03:58 PM posted to alt.mountain-bike,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.backcountry,ca.environment,sci.environment
Wolf Leverich
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 43
Default Euphemism for Illegal Mountain Bike Trails: "Gray Trails"

On 2007-06-08, userfriendly wrote:
"Wolf Leverich" wrote in message


: Nope, the POV is irrelevant. I wouldn't trust a sociologist funded by
: Osama bin Laden to tell me that climate change was real and man-made.
: All of your sources had the "sociologist funded by bin Laden" problem.
:
: Go find people with relevant skills who are funded by neutral sources
: and quote what they are saying. Or get good at the applied mathematics
: and physics of atmospheric modeling, collect your own data, do your own
: modeling, and share it with the world.

And your guys are not funded by people with an agenda?
Umm...r-i-i-i-i-i-g-h-t...


Well, a fair chunk of climate scientists are government-funded,
directly or indirectly. Given the country's (incompetent)
leadership for the last six years, you'd be pretty much spot-on
saying that the funding authority has been actively trying to
suppress results which support global warming and its human
origins. So I guess I'd have to concede that many of the
scientists are funded by people with an agenda.

It is difficult to find a climate scientist who is funded by
someone who stands to gain from global warming, because there
just aren't many economic winners on that side of the question.

And apart from funding, there's also the issue of competence on
the part of the authors. A tobacco lobbyist just isn't a useful
source in comparison to a guy who dreams in partial differential
equations and has spent his life modeling atmospheric behavior.

###

: The "science as religion" meme seems to be popular with wingnuts
: because it would give them the same license to believe whatever
: poppycock they choose about how the physical universe works, the
: same way they can choose whether to believe in Yahweh, God, Allah,
: or the cosmic donkey. The physical world doesn't work like faith,
: though: it is what it is, and wishful thinking doesn't change it
: and letting loose of reality can get you spanked pretty roundly by
: Mother Nature.

For me, it's not science as religion. You don't read well, do you?


It's more likely you don't write well. What thought are you
trying to communicate?

Cheers, Wolf.


--
Dr. Brian Leverich Co-moderator, soc.genealogy.methods/GENMTD-L
Angeles Chapter LTC Admin Chair http://angeles.sierraclub.org/ltc/
P.O. Box 6831, Frazier Park, CA 93222-6831
  #88  
Old June 10th 07, 10:12 AM posted to alt.mountain-bike,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.backcountry,ca.environment,sci.environment
Roberto Baggio
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 173
Default Euphemism for Illegal Mountain Bike Trails: "Gray Trails"

"Mike Vandeman" wrote in message
Michael Vandeman is a known crackpot, not a scientist.


Finally, we can agree on something.


  #89  
Old June 10th 07, 10:48 PM posted to alt.mountain-bike,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.backcountry,ca.environment,sci.environment
Bill
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,680
Default Euphemism for Illegal Mountain Bike Trails: "Gray Trails"

Roberto Baggio wrote:
"Mike Vandeman" wrote in message
Michael Vandeman is a known crackpot, not a scientist.


Finally, we can agree on something.


I don't think he even rides a bike or hikes. He merely exists to bother us.
Bill Baka
 




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