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road bike / race bike / hybrid / touring / fitness bike - which one



 
 
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  #31  
Old September 21st 06, 03:51 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Rob Morley
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Posts: 7,173
Default road bike / race bike / hybrid / touring / fitness bike - which one

In article
Pete Biggs wrote:
Simon Brooke wrote:
in message , Peter Clinch
') wrote:

Paul Boyd wrote:

I think "more upright = number arse" might sum it up :-) That's
"number" as in "more numb", not 1,2,3,4 etc. Isn't the English
language wonderful??

And less numbsome wrists/elbows/neck. You choose, you lose!


I just don't agree at all. Obviously to some extent it's personal,
but I think for almost anyone it's possible to set a bike up so you
just slouch comfortably over it.


I think some of it is to do with how much weight or force you put through
the pedals. Less there = more weight on the hands and upper body.

Quite a lot is to do with how hard you pedal - my bikes are set up for
energetic riding, and when I'm just pootling along with my SO I soon
feel it in my wrists.
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  #32  
Old September 21st 06, 03:51 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Rob Morley
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Posts: 7,173
Default road bike / race bike / hybrid / touring / fitness bike - which one

In article
Simon Brooke wrote:
snip
I use SKS Race Blades on my winter bike. They fit OK on frames without
mudguard clearance, and don't interfere with the brakes; but despite this
are adequately effective. They're very quick and easy to get off and on. I
wouldn't advise them on a really nice bike, as the rubber belts which hold
them in place tend to mark the paint.

Salmon Profil use conventional fittings and fit many close-clearance
frames, but apparently they can be a pig to install.
  #33  
Old September 21st 06, 06:46 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
David Damerell
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Posts: 1,863
Default road bike / race bike / hybrid / touring / fitness bike - which one

Quoting John Hearns :
To explain to Maurice - if you have dropped bars, most of the time spent
riding is with the hands on top of the brake hoods. Notice these are made
of rubber, and the forefinger and thumb wrap easily round them.


It depends - that's common these days, but some people (including me) have
the bars higher and ride on the drops most of the time. That way you can
sit more upright by using the hoods uphill, which makes it easier to
breathe deeply.
--
David Damerell Distortion Field!
Today is Tuesday, September.
  #34  
Old September 24th 06, 12:46 AM posted to uk.rec.cycling
DavidR
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Posts: 105
Default road bike / race bike / hybrid / touring / fitness bike - which one

"Chris Eilbeck" wrote
John Hearns writes:


To explain to Maurice - if you have dropped bars, most of the time
spent riding is with the hands on top of the brake hoods.
Notice
these are made of rubber, and the forefinger and thumb wrap easily
round them.


But that puts the thrust on the soft bits between the
forefingers and thumbs; hoods give little support for the palms.

When I ride "the hoods" I either put my palms against the horns or my hands
are palms down with the horn between first and second fingers.

They are used somewhat like bar ends on a mountain
bike.


Bar ends are a different shape - they toe in and are angled up so line up
with the knuckle line better. Even when adjusted for the same body
position, the way the hands make contact with the bar is quite different
except when the fingers are hooked under for climbing.
On a flat bar (with bar ends or bar "middles"), the fingers and thumbs can
be completely free while cruising.

Except you have your hands on the controls rather than away from them
like on a MTB. IMO this is one of the biggest arguments for drops
rather than straight bars with bar-ends for general use -


It certainly is an opinion... It might be true for some.
The hands actually need to be wrapped round the hoods for this to be
valid. I suggest it is much easier to get to the controls from an off the
control position on flat bars than it is on drops.

I usually brake from the drop anyway because my hands are not on the
controls in the first place and the leverage from the drop is greater.

having your
hands on the hoods/bar-ends is a much more natural position.




  #35  
Old September 24th 06, 10:08 AM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Simon Brooke
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Posts: 4,493
Default road bike / race bike / hybrid / touring / fitness bike - which one

in message , DavidR
') wrote:

"Chris Eilbeck" wrote
John Hearns writes:


To explain to Maurice - if you have dropped bars, most of the time
spent riding is with the hands on top of the brake hoods.
Notice
these are made of rubber, and the forefinger and thumb wrap easily
round them.


But that puts the thrust on the soft bits between the
forefingers and thumbs; hoods give little support for the palms.


That's true of older designs, certainly; and a significant cause of
cyclists' palsies certainly used to be pressure on the nerve that crosses
this web. However the modern Campagnolo Ergo and Shimano STI levers have
much broader hoods which give much better support. This may simply be a
side effect of being big enough to accommodate the gear wire spool, but it
still works; I find on Ergo hoods that the heel of my hand is well
supported.

It certainly is an opinion... It might be true for some.
The hands actually need to be wrapped round the hoods for this to be
valid.


No, certainly not. The hands can be resting fairly lightly on the hoods.

I suggest it is much easier to get to the controls from an off the
control position on flat bars than it is on drops.


That's possibly true, but one rides on the drops relatively rarely (high
speed sprinting, primarily) whereas on a flat bar bike on non-technical
routes one will often be on the bar-ends 50% of the time.

I usually brake from the drop anyway because my hands are not on the
controls in the first place and the leverage from the drop is greater.


Then fix your brakes. You ought to be able to lift the rear wheel with two
finger pressure from the hoods.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

[ This .sig intentionally left blank ]

  #36  
Old September 25th 06, 12:39 AM posted to uk.rec.cycling
DavidR
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Posts: 105
Default road bike / race bike / hybrid / touring / fitness bike - which one

"Simon Brooke" wrote
in message , DavidR
"Chris Eilbeck" wrote
John Hearns writes:


To explain to Maurice - if you have dropped bars, most of the time
spent riding is with the hands on top of the brake hoods.
Notice
these are made of rubber, and the forefinger and thumb wrap easily
round them.


But that puts the thrust on the soft bits between the
forefingers and thumbs; hoods give little support for the palms.


That's true of older designs, certainly; and a significant cause of
cyclists' palsies certainly used to be pressure on the nerve that crosses
this web. However the modern Campagnolo Ergo and Shimano STI levers have
much broader hoods which give much better support. This may simply be a
side effect of being big enough to accommodate the gear wire spool, but
it
still works; I find on Ergo hoods that the heel of my hand is well
supported.


In this picture
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~anatomy/wr...es/bones4.html
the hoods position requires that the bar runs down the thumb to the left of
the pisiform. This part contains the nerves, blood vessels and tendons. I
contact the bar above the pisiform.

The pisiform provides a very effective notch in all positions on straight
bar/bar ends and reaction point for braking on straight bars. It comes into
play on the transverse and drop parts of
drop bars. It is not used on the corner, on the hoods (at least,
conventionally) and completely impossible to bring into play for braking
from the hoods.

Interestingly I had a comment from a rider with integrated controls (Campag
if I recall) that downtube shifters were more convenient. And he uses the
hoods in the "conventional" position.

I suggest it is much easier to get to the controls from an off the
control position on flat bars than it is on drops.


That's possibly true, but one rides on the drops relatively rarely (high
speed sprinting, primarily) whereas on a flat bar bike on non-technical
routes one will often be on the bar-ends 50% of the time.


I agree about the use of the actual drop as you describe. I didn't agree
with the OP that braking from the hoods is a recommendation over straight
bars. If bar ends are used 50% of the time, so a rider will similarly not
be on the hoods 50% of the time.

The question is which 50% is more critical in unexpected stuations?
From observation and experience, riders with drop bars are far more likely
to get caught out.

I usually brake from the drop anyway because my hands are not on the
controls in the first place and the leverage from the drop is greater.


Then fix your brakes. You ought to be able to lift the rear wheel with
two
finger pressure from the hoods.


Then many riders I know must have broken brakes too. By experiment
my braking distance roughly doubles from the hoods compared to the
drop.

As an aside, why is it so difficult to get decent brake blocks? Apart from
Koolstops it seems to me that manufacturers go out of their way to avoid
providing strong braking. Astecs are ok but some blocks are just hard and
ineffective - as in offering little more than 0.3g.



  #37  
Old September 25th 06, 09:53 AM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Pete Biggs
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Posts: 1,801
Default road bike / race bike / hybrid / touring / fitness bike - which one

DavidR wrote:
"Simon Brooke" wrote


Then fix your brakes. You ought to be able to lift the rear wheel
with two finger pressure from the hoods.


Then many riders I know must have broken brakes too. By experiment
my braking distance roughly doubles from the hoods compared to the
drop.


From 20 mph on the flat, with an average road bike + average dual-pivot
caliper + average modern lever + average hands, it is possible to lift the
rear wheel within a couple of seconds of braking from the hoods. The only
time I reckon the hood position compromises my braking distance is on
high-speed descents when there's gravity and extra momentum to deal with --
either by riding on the drops or allowing extra stopping distance.

As an aside, why is it so difficult to get decent brake blocks? Apart
from Koolstops it seems to me that manufacturers go out of their way
to avoid providing strong braking. Astecs are ok but some blocks are
just hard and ineffective - as in offering little more than 0.3g.


This is a another sign that your brake caliper/lever/setup isn't good if you
need the best blocks to stop well.

Get the best out of any blocks though by regularly sanding to take off the
"glaze".

~PB, still finding 3T Morphe drop bars and Ergo levers very comfortable


  #38  
Old September 25th 06, 10:00 AM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Nick Maclaren
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Posts: 443
Default road bike / race bike / hybrid / touring / fitness bike - which one


In article ,
Simon Brooke writes:
|
| But that puts the thrust on the soft bits between the
| forefingers and thumbs; hoods give little support for the palms.
|
| That's true of older designs, certainly; and a significant cause of
| cyclists' palsies certainly used to be pressure on the nerve that crosses
| this web. ...

One of many. That is why the traditional upright position is so much
better in all respects, except for windage and braking efficiency on
short wheelbase / steep angle bicycles. On a traditional roadster,
there is only the windage problem - but that is quite a big one for
cyclists that ride at above 15 MPH.

Over even slightly rough roads, the jarring causes significant wrist
(and often other) problems if you are carrying any weight on your hands,
no matter what your position.

| It certainly is an opinion... It might be true for some.
| The hands actually need to be wrapped round the hoods for this to be
| valid.
|
| No, certainly not. The hands can be resting fairly lightly on the hoods.

Which means that you are carrying a large proportion of the weight of
your torso with your back muscles for long periods. NOT good news for
most of the large number of people with lower back problems, and many
people can't hold that position for long at all without resting on
their hands.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
  #39  
Old September 25th 06, 10:00 AM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Peter Clinch
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Posts: 4,852
Default road bike / race bike / hybrid / touring / fitness bike - whichone

DavidR wrote:

Then many riders I know must have broken brakes too.


Possible...

By experiment
my braking distance roughly doubles from the hoods compared to the
drop.


Then the experiment shows that the bike you do this on needs its brakes
fixing... It would explain your insistence that braking with drop bars
is inherently broken if you've always tried it with broken brakes.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
  #40  
Old September 25th 06, 01:03 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Rob Morley
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Posts: 7,173
Default road bike / race bike / hybrid / touring / fitness bike - which one

In article
Nick Maclaren wrote:

In article ,
Simon Brooke writes:

snip
| No, certainly not. The hands can be resting fairly lightly on the hoods.

Which means that you are carrying a large proportion of the weight of
your torso with your back muscles for long periods. NOT good news for
most of the large number of people with lower back problems, and many
people can't hold that position for long at all without resting on
their hands.

IME it's the inability to comfortably maintain pedalling pressure that
causes a problem with this position - I have lower back problems and
cycling is one of the strenuous activities that actually helps my back.
Although we walk upright our spines didn't really evolved for that
posture - leaning forward reduces pressure and allows the spine to flex
rather than jarring with road shock. The other problem that riders
often have, whether with straight bars or drops, is that they lock their
elbows rather than keeping them flexed, so shocks from the bars are
absorbed by the hands and wrists or transmitted to the shoulders and
neck.
 




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