"Fort Ord Habitat in Peril from Mountain Bikers -- Rogue RidersDamaging Rare Environment"

tcmedara wrote:


I finally killfiled ol' MV the other day, but just had to jump in when I saw
this post.

It's fun to point out MV's hypocrisies every once in awhile.

Fort Ord is where I first started mountain biking. It remains
one of my favorite places and to see mention of it actually associated with
mountain biking just warms my heart (even if it did start with MV spam). I
lived there in housing from '94 to '96 and began mountain biking when
running started to kill my shins and knees. All I had to do was shoot up
the road about two hundred yards and I had access to acres of untouched
trail. Most of the land was still owned by the DoD at the time, and some
had just been turned over to BLM. I think the bureaucrats were still
getting the paper work in order, so there was little in the way of markings
or boundaries. Likewise, except for me and a crew of guys I hung out with,
there was no one else out there. I even took the boy wonder out there on
the dirt roads in a trailer when he was about a year old. The whole place
was wide open and riddled with old jeep trails and foot paths. It had
served for years as an infantry training area, so there were all sorts of
trails and routes to choose. I spent two years just exploring and seeing
the routes. What memories. Several of us managed to find a way from our
starting point all the way into the Laguna Seca raceway and back via the old
MOUT site (cool place BTW). The worst scare we had was when we somehow
found ourselves traversing the impact area from the old live fire range.
Apparently we'd entered from an untravelled and unmarked sector on our way
home. There appeared to be a few unexploded bits here and there so we
carefully picked our way out and back to safe ground.


I've told this story here before but as a civilian I learned my lesson long
ago about venturing into off-limit areas. Back in the early eighties we
were negotiating to use a route through a local desert military base for
our off-road race to the Colorado River. My Dad decided to do a little
reconnoitering long before the base provided us any possible routes. His
thinking was, hey, were here now, why don't we check it out. So we're 3 or
4 miles inside the base on our motorcycles, my Dad's in front, and we're
cruising through an area that was used for target practice using something
big. There were blown up trucks and jeeps all over. My Dad comes to a
stop and when I pull up to him he points to his plastic handguard which has
a nice 2 inch fine slice through it. Then I see it. A thin, almost
invisible wire draped along the bush tops to the right and left. It had
started cutting through his glove when he noticed the tug on the bars and
stopped. If it had been any higher it would have been cutting his throat.
I assume it was the leftovers from a wire guided rocket or something?
I suggested we should retrace our tracks to the inch and get out of there.

For the same race we cut across an area closer to the river that was
temporarily used by Patton for training for WWII. We found all kinds of
cool stuff out there, binoculars smashed in tank tracks, Jeep parts,
canteens, etc. But we also found an unexploded land mine in a sandwash
that we were using for our route. Thankfully we did find it because since
the route was in a sandwash the racers didn't have to stay in the same
singletrack, someone could have easily hit it.

Greg

--
"Destroy your safe and happy lives before it is too late,
the battles we fought were long and hard,
just not to be consumed by rock n' roll..." - The Mekons

On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 04:19:09 GMT, "G.T." wrote:

..tcmedara wrote:
..
..
.. I finally killfiled ol' MV the other day, but just had to jump in when I saw
.. this post.
..
..It's fun to point out MV's hypocrisies every once in awhile.
..
.. Fort Ord is where I first started mountain biking. It remains
.. one of my favorite places and to see mention of it actually associated with
.. mountain biking just warms my heart (even if it did start with MV spam). I
.. lived there in housing from '94 to '96 and began mountain biking when
.. running started to kill my shins and knees. All I had to do was shoot up
.. the road about two hundred yards and I had access to acres of untouched
.. trail. Most of the land was still owned by the DoD at the time, and some
.. had just been turned over to BLM. I think the bureaucrats were still
.. getting the paper work in order, so there was little in the way of markings
.. or boundaries. Likewise, except for me and a crew of guys I hung out with,
.. there was no one else out there. I even took the boy wonder out there on
.. the dirt roads in a trailer when he was about a year old. The whole place
.. was wide open and riddled with old jeep trails and foot paths. It had
.. served for years as an infantry training area, so there were all sorts of
.. trails and routes to choose. I spent two years just exploring and seeing
.. the routes. What memories. Several of us managed to find a way from our
.. starting point all the way into the Laguna Seca raceway and back via the old
.. MOUT site (cool place BTW). The worst scare we had was when we somehow
.. found ourselves traversing the impact area from the old live fire range.
.. Apparently we'd entered from an untravelled and unmarked sector on our way
.. home. There appeared to be a few unexploded bits here and there so we
.. carefully picked our way out and back to safe ground.
..
..
..I've told this story here before but as a civilian I learned my lesson long
..ago about venturing into off-limit areas.

Yes. Mountain bikers are not too bright....

Back in the early eighties we
..were negotiating to use a route through a local desert military base for
..our off-road race to the Colorado River. My Dad decided to do a little
..reconnoitering long before the base provided us any possible routes. His
..thinking was, hey, were here now, why don't we check it out. So we're 3 or
..4 miles inside the base on our motorcycles, my Dad's in front, and we're
..cruising through an area that was used for target practice using something
..big. There were blown up trucks and jeeps all over. My Dad comes to a
..stop and when I pull up to him he points to his plastic handguard which has
..a nice 2 inch fine slice through it. Then I see it. A thin, almost
..invisible wire draped along the bush tops to the right and left. It had
..started cutting through his glove when he noticed the tug on the bars and
..stopped. If it had been any higher it would have been cutting his throat.
.. I assume it was the leftovers from a wire guided rocket or something?
..I suggested we should retrace our tracks to the inch and get out of there.
..
..For the same race we cut across an area closer to the river that was
..temporarily used by Patton for training for WWII. We found all kinds of
..cool stuff out there, binoculars smashed in tank tracks, Jeep parts,
..canteens, etc. But we also found an unexploded land mine in a sandwash
..that we were using for our route. Thankfully we did find it because since
..the route was in a sandwash the racers didn't have to stay in the same
..singletrack, someone could have easily hit it.

Better luch next time....

..Greg

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

"Mike Vandeman" wrote
.
.For the same race we cut across an area closer to the river that was
.temporarily used by Patton for training for WWII. We found all kinds of
.cool stuff out there, binoculars smashed in tank tracks, Jeep parts,
.canteens, etc. But we also found an unexploded land mine in a sandwash
.that we were using for our route. Thankfully we did find it because
since
.the route was in a sandwash the racers didn't have to stay in the same
.singletrack, someone could have easily hit it.

Better luch next time....

Hoping someone dies, Mikey? How typical.

Pete

In ,
Mike Vandeman scribbled:

Yes. Mountain bikers are not too bright....

Funny that. I'm a computer programmer and four of my mountain biking/racing
friends have doctorates (psychology, mathematics and two physicians). (Call
me a liar, go ahead... even you cannot truthfully deny the ignorance in
that.)

I hadn't realized before this very moment that despite what I previously
felt was obvious, it does not take intelligence and great perseverance to
earn a doctorate. Heck, now I'm surprised that they can't just be obtained
from a bubblegum machine for a quarter.

So I guess that means you're not necessarily too bright either. Thank you
very much for the clarification. I don't think anyone here had even guessed
that... (sarcasm)

--

FlyingCoyote
http://boarsgut.com

--

On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 17:23:59 GMT, "Pete" wrote:

..
.."Mike Vandeman" wrote
.. .
.. .For the same race we cut across an area closer to the river that was
.. .temporarily used by Patton for training for WWII. We found all kinds of
.. .cool stuff out there, binoculars smashed in tank tracks, Jeep parts,
.. .canteens, etc. But we also found an unexploded land mine in a sandwash
.. .that we were using for our route. Thankfully we did find it because
..since
.. .the route was in a sandwash the racers didn't have to stay in the same
.. .singletrack, someone could have easily hit it.
..
.. Better luch next time....
..
..Hoping someone dies, Mikey? How typical.

How useful. And quite likely, among mountain bikers.

..Pete
..

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 19:01:54 -0800, "FlyingCoyote"
wrote:

..In ,
..Mike Vandeman scribbled:
..
.. Yes. Mountain bikers are not too bright....
..
..Funny that. I'm a computer programmer and four of my mountain biking/racing
..friends have doctorates (psychology, mathematics and two physicians). (Call
..me a liar, go ahead... even you cannot truthfully deny the ignorance in
..that.)
..
..I hadn't realized before this very moment that despite what I previously
..felt was obvious, it does not take intelligence and great perseverance to
..earn a doctorate.

How would you know?
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

"G.T." wrote in message
m...
tcmedara wrote:


I finally killfiled ol' MV the other day, but just had to jump in when I
saw
this post.

It's fun to point out MV's hypocrisies every once in awhile.

Fort Ord is where I first started mountain biking. It remains
one of my favorite places and to see mention of it actually associated
with
mountain biking just warms my heart (even if it did start with MV spam).
I
lived there in housing from '94 to '96 and began mountain biking when
running started to kill my shins and knees. All I had to do was shoot
up
the road about two hundred yards and I had access to acres of untouched
trail. Most of the land was still owned by the DoD at the time, and
some
had just been turned over to BLM. I think the bureaucrats were still
getting the paper work in order, so there was little in the way of
markings
or boundaries. Likewise, except for me and a crew of guys I hung out
with,
there was no one else out there. I even took the boy wonder out there
on
the dirt roads in a trailer when he was about a year old. The whole
place
was wide open and riddled with old jeep trails and foot paths. It had
served for years as an infantry training area, so there were all sorts
of
trails and routes to choose. I spent two years just exploring and
seeing
the routes. What memories. Several of us managed to find a way from
our
starting point all the way into the Laguna Seca raceway and back via the
old
MOUT site (cool place BTW). The worst scare we had was when we somehow
found ourselves traversing the impact area from the old live fire range.
Apparently we'd entered from an untravelled and unmarked sector on our
way
home. There appeared to be a few unexploded bits here and there so we
carefully picked our way out and back to safe ground.


I've told this story here before but as a civilian I learned my lesson
long
ago about venturing into off-limit areas. Back in the early eighties we
were negotiating to use a route through a local desert military base for
our off-road race to the Colorado River. My Dad decided to do a little
reconnoitering long before the base provided us any possible routes. His
thinking was, hey, were here now, why don't we check it out. So we're 3
or
4 miles inside the base on our motorcycles, my Dad's in front, and we're
cruising through an area that was used for target practice using something
big. There were blown up trucks and jeeps all over. My Dad comes to a
stop and when I pull up to him he points to his plastic handguard which
has
a nice 2 inch fine slice through it. Then I see it. A thin, almost
invisible wire draped along the bush tops to the right and left. It had
started cutting through his glove when he noticed the tug on the bars and
stopped. If it had been any higher it would have been cutting his throat.
I assume it was the leftovers from a wire guided rocket or something?
I suggested we should retrace our tracks to the inch and get out of there.


Probably from expended TOW missiles. Not a good idea telling Mikey about
this stuff as it is very fine and VERY tough. No doubt he is already
planning to string this stuff up across the local singletrack.

"Mike Vandeman" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 19:01:54 -0800, "FlyingCoyote"

wrote:

.In ,
.Mike Vandeman scribbled:
.
. Yes. Mountain bikers are not too bright....
.
.Funny that. I'm a computer programmer and four of my mountain
biking/racing
.friends have doctorates (psychology, mathematics and two physicians).
(Call
.me a liar, go ahead... even you cannot truthfully deny the ignorance in
.that.)
.
.I hadn't realized before this very moment that despite what I previously
.felt was obvious, it does not take intelligence and great perseverance to
.earn a doctorate.

How would you know?
===
The evidence of that is plain for all to see. Duh.

tcmedara wrote:

It's interesting how perspective changes. When I was there, the area was
littered with old sandbags, MRE wrappers, erosion from military vehicles,
old caved in fox holes, miles of rusty concertina wire, shell casings, and
various detritus resulting from 50 years of military use and abuse. To hear
wailings of habitat destruction from mountain biking is laughable. It can't
begin to match the damage done by hundreds of Hummers and Deuce and Half
Trucks rolling over that ground every day for years. I would practically
guarantee the land there is in better shape then it was 10 years ago when
the army pulled out the division. I even saw a mountain lion out there
once. And it didn't eat me, even though I was on a bike.

Whatever the current dispute, I hope it doesn't result in closure of the
area for recreation. I look at pictures of the Sea Otter races every year
and wonder if I ever road parts of the trail I see in pictures. Its a truly
beautiful and unique area, and hopefully one that doesn't get spoiled by
selfish knuckle-heads who can't be careful custodians of such natural gifts.

There's still some junk lying around Fort Ord, and parts that are
off limits due to training exercises, old ordnance, toxics,
or god knows what.

The real threat to Fort Ord is that the land was conveyed to BLM
with the task of redeveloping a significant fraction of it. IOW,
if you think mountain bikers can damage habitat, wait til the
local municipalities and their developer buddies zone it for
several thousand housing units. Hopefully, it won't all have
condos barfed up on it, but there is a risk. Google
"fort ord development" or something like that, or see www.fora.org
for the bureaucrats' view.

Benjamin Weiner wrote:
tcmedara wrote:

It's interesting how perspective changes. When I was there, the
area was littered with old sandbags, MRE wrappers, erosion from
military vehicles, old caved in fox holes, miles of rusty concertina
wire, shell casings, and various detritus resulting from 50 years of
military use and abuse. To hear wailings of habitat destruction
from mountain biking is laughable. It can't begin to match the
damage done by hundreds of Hummers and Deuce and Half Trucks rolling
over that ground every day for years. I would practically guarantee
the land there is in better shape then it was 10 years ago when the
army pulled out the division. I even saw a mountain lion out there
once. And it didn't eat me, even though I was on a bike.

Whatever the current dispute, I hope it doesn't result in closure of
the area for recreation. I look at pictures of the Sea Otter races
every year and wonder if I ever road parts of the trail I see in
pictures. Its a truly beautiful and unique area, and hopefully one
that doesn't get spoiled by selfish knuckle-heads who can't be
careful custodians of such natural gifts.

There's still some junk lying around Fort Ord, and parts that are
off limits due to training exercises, old ordnance, toxics,
or god knows what.

The real threat to Fort Ord is that the land was conveyed to BLM
with the task of redeveloping a significant fraction of it. IOW,
if you think mountain bikers can damage habitat, wait til the
local municipalities and their developer buddies zone it for
several thousand housing units. Hopefully, it won't all have
condos barfed up on it, but there is a risk. Google
"fort ord development" or something like that, or see www.fora.org
for the bureaucrats' view.

Thanks for the update. Land around that area is so precious, I have no
doubt there are lots of folks wanting to implement one scheme or another.
Hopefully the danger areas are well marked for everyone -- cyclists, hikers,
and mountain lions alike. There was so much crap lying around in the brush
out there that I doubt it will ever by totally cleaned up. My dog actually
managed to slice here leg open and need over 200 stitches after she lost a
run-in with some old conertina wire just off the side of a trail. Glad it
wasn't me or my kids, but it still stinks when your pet gets messed up. I'd
love to go back and see the changes over the past decade.

Tom