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So many new lighting systems, who's buying them all?



 
 
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  #1  
Old September 19th 07, 12:01 AM posted to rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,477
Default So many new lighting systems, who's buying them all?

I must get catalogs from Performance and Nashbar (same owner) twice a
week. Maybe it's the time of the season with it getting dark earlier,
but I've noticed that there seem to be a hell of a lot of new bicycle
lights coming on the market, especially new high-power LED lights that
must be using the Cree LEDs and claim to be as bright as an HID, i.e.
"http://www.performancebike.com/shop/profile.cfm?SKU=24466&subcategory_ID=4320".

It's also amusing to see the move back to metal cases as the LEDs
increase in power. Love those external heat sinks that they try to blend
in as part of the industrial design on
"http://www.performancebike.com/shop/profile.cfm?SKU=23115&subcategory_ID=4320".
Maybe they can do a heat pipe and use the waste heat for some sort of
heating system for winter riding.

Are there really that many people buying $200-400 lights for their
bicycles? I hope that this signals a trend to more night riding, and
hopefully the prices will fall with all this competition.
Ads
  #2  
Old September 19th 07, 12:32 AM posted to rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.tech
Mike Jacoubowsky
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Posts: 2,972
Default So many new lighting systems, who's buying them all?

Are there really that many people buying $200-400 lights for their
bicycles? I hope that this signals a trend to more night riding, and
hopefully the prices will fall with all this competition.


It's not a lack of competition that's keeping prices up; it's the
relatively-small quantities being manufactured. No single manufacturer has
captured a large-enough share of the market to bring down costs. Nobody's
been willing to take the pluge (spending a whole lot of $$$) and really
mass-produce a high quality lower-cost system. Not even Cat-Eye, which seems
to not do well each time they come out with a higher-end system.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA


"SMS" wrote in message
...
I must get catalogs from Performance and Nashbar (same owner) twice a week.
Maybe it's the time of the season with it getting dark earlier, but I've
noticed that there seem to be a hell of a lot of new bicycle lights coming
on the market, especially new high-power LED lights that must be using the
Cree LEDs and claim to be as bright as an HID, i.e.
"http://www.performancebike.com/shop/profile.cfm?SKU=24466&subcategory_ID=4320".

It's also amusing to see the move back to metal cases as the LEDs increase
in power. Love those external heat sinks that they try to blend in as part
of the industrial design on
"http://www.performancebike.com/shop/profile.cfm?SKU=23115&subcategory_ID=4320".
Maybe they can do a heat pipe and use the waste heat for some sort of
heating system for winter riding.

Are there really that many people buying $200-400 lights for their
bicycles? I hope that this signals a trend to more night riding, and
hopefully the prices will fall with all this competition.



  #3  
Old September 19th 07, 01:50 AM posted to rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.tech
Crescentius Vespasianus
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Posts: 385
Default So many new lighting systems, who's buying them all?

SMS wrote:
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
Are there really that many people buying $200-400 lights for their
bicycles? I hope that this signals a trend to more night riding, and
hopefully the prices will fall with all this competition.


It's not a lack of competition that's keeping prices up; it's the
relatively-small quantities being manufactured. No single manufacturer
has captured a large-enough share of the market to bring down costs.
Nobody's been willing to take the pluge (spending a whole lot of $$$)
and really mass-produce a high quality lower-cost system. Not even
Cat-Eye, which seems to not do well each time they come out with a
higher-end system.


I guess there's such a thing as too many players in the market.
Meanwhile, some of the high end 3W Cree LED flashlights are brighter
than the DiNotte lights, and combined with one of the many handlebar
clamps available you can have a good front light for $60 or so, one that
blows the low power CatEye lamps out of the water. Combine it with a
Trek Disco Inferno or a CatEye LD1000 and you can have a very good
system for under $100.

I was very impressed with the beam of the Fenix L2DCE, which has
sufficient peripheral illumination off to the side, in addition to the
powerful spot beam. You don't get that with most of the low-power
bicycle lights which often have a beam that is a compromise to focus the
limited output directly in front of the bicycle. It seems that many of
the bicycle lights are charging so much just because of the mount to the
bicycle, there's nothing so special about the lights themselves.

Maybe I'll restart the All Night Bicycle Rides I used to do for Western
Wheelers. They were great fun, and I was surprised at the turnout. I
expected three people and would often get thirty. It was as much a
lighting system comparison as a ride! Thank g-d the Donut Wheel is still
open 24 hours.

-------------
Night riding is my favorite. On the
road, hell of a lot less cars to deal
with, and you get to play with lights,
rear lights, reflective gear, gives
cycling a whole different spin. People
are afraid of the dark, because they
don't have the right equipment, and they
think they're going to get run over. I
ride about 5000 miles a year in the
dark, and 5000 in the day, and the
number of close calls I've had with cars
is 5 to 1 daytime vs nightime. If you
have the courage to ride in the day, the
night is a piece of cake. One exception
is maybe Friday and Saturday nights, I
still try to avoid those. But I avoid
those driving too, a lot juiced up kooks
you see during those nights. People
throwing stuff at you and the like.
I think the economies of scale argument
on bicycle lights is bogus. Like the
fenix flashlight, is better built, won't
break, but yet costs 25% as much as bike
light with the same LED, with some
proprietary battery, that will break
eventually. It's called a rip-off.
Cateye's are still selling 1 watt Lux
LED's that are 5 year old technology.
They should be selling those for 20
bucks. I dropped one, and it broke,
that's how cheap it was, that's when I
said I'm not going to let them rip me
off anymore.
  #4  
Old September 19th 07, 02:17 AM posted to rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,477
Default So many new lighting systems, who's buying them all?

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
Are there really that many people buying $200-400 lights for their
bicycles? I hope that this signals a trend to more night riding, and
hopefully the prices will fall with all this competition.


It's not a lack of competition that's keeping prices up; it's the
relatively-small quantities being manufactured. No single manufacturer has
captured a large-enough share of the market to bring down costs. Nobody's
been willing to take the pluge (spending a whole lot of $$$) and really
mass-produce a high quality lower-cost system. Not even Cat-Eye, which seems
to not do well each time they come out with a higher-end system.


I guess there's such a thing as too many players in the market.
Meanwhile, some of the high end 3W Cree LED flashlights are brighter
than the DiNotte lights, and combined with one of the many handlebar
clamps available you can have a good front light for $60 or so, one that
blows the low power CatEye lamps out of the water. Combine it with a
Trek Disco Inferno or a CatEye LD1000 and you can have a very good
system for under $100.

I was very impressed with the beam of the Fenix L2DCE, which has
sufficient peripheral illumination off to the side, in addition to the
powerful spot beam. You don't get that with most of the low-power
bicycle lights which often have a beam that is a compromise to focus the
limited output directly in front of the bicycle. It seems that many of
the bicycle lights are charging so much just because of the mount to the
bicycle, there's nothing so special about the lights themselves.

Maybe I'll restart the All Night Bicycle Rides I used to do for Western
Wheelers. They were great fun, and I was surprised at the turnout. I
expected three people and would often get thirty. It was as much a
lighting system comparison as a ride! Thank g-d the Donut Wheel is still
open 24 hours.
  #5  
Old September 19th 07, 04:05 AM posted to rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.tech
Michael Warner[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 483
Default So many new lighting systems, who's buying them all?

On Tue, 18 Sep 2007 16:01:56 -0700, SMS wrote:

I must get catalogs from Performance and Nashbar (same owner) twice a
week. Maybe it's the time of the season with it getting dark earlier,
but I've noticed that there seem to be a hell of a lot of new bicycle
lights coming on the market, especially new high-power LED lights that
must be using the Cree LEDs and claim to be as bright as an HID, i.e.
"http://www.performancebike.com/shop/profile.cfm?SKU=24466&subcategory_ID=4320".

It's also amusing to see the move back to metal cases as the LEDs
increase in power. Love those external heat sinks that they try to blend
in as part of the industrial design on
"http://www.performancebike.com/shop/profile.cfm?SKU=23115&subcategory_ID=4320".
Maybe they can do a heat pipe and use the waste heat for some sort of
heating system for winter riding.


I retrofitted one of those LEDs to a cheap halogen system. I only used a
small finned internal heatsink, and haven't had any problems. As for
brightness, it's somewhere between a 5W and 10W halogen - certainly not
competitive with HID.
  #6  
Old September 19th 07, 05:33 AM posted to rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.tech
Tim McNamara
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Posts: 6,945
Default So many new lighting systems, who's buying them all?

In article ,
SMS wrote:

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
Are there really that many people buying $200-400 lights for their
bicycles? I hope that this signals a trend to more night riding,
and hopefully the prices will fall with all this competition.


It's not a lack of competition that's keeping prices up; it's the
relatively-small quantities being manufactured. No single
manufacturer has captured a large-enough share of the market to
bring down costs. Nobody's been willing to take the pluge (spending
a whole lot of $$$) and really mass-produce a high quality
lower-cost system. Not even Cat-Eye, which seems to not do well
each time they come out with a higher-end system.


I guess there's such a thing as too many players in the market.


Not according to classical economics. Looked at the DVD player market?

I was very impressed with the beam of the Fenix L2DCE, which has
sufficient peripheral illumination off to the side, in addition to
the powerful spot beam. You don't get that with most of the low-power
bicycle lights which often have a beam that is a compromise to focus
the limited output directly in front of the bicycle.


Well, at least you're persistent in your apologism for the incompetent
grasp of optics exhibited by most battery powered light makers.

It seems that many of the bicycle lights are charging so much just
because of the mount to the bicycle, there's nothing so special about
the lights themselves.


On this we agree.
  #7  
Old September 19th 07, 03:41 PM posted to rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,477
Default So many new lighting systems, who's buying them all?

Tim McNamara wrote:
In article ,
SMS wrote:

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
Are there really that many people buying $200-400 lights for their
bicycles? I hope that this signals a trend to more night riding,
and hopefully the prices will fall with all this competition.
It's not a lack of competition that's keeping prices up; it's the
relatively-small quantities being manufactured. No single
manufacturer has captured a large-enough share of the market to
bring down costs. Nobody's been willing to take the pluge (spending
a whole lot of $$$) and really mass-produce a high quality
lower-cost system. Not even Cat-Eye, which seems to not do well
each time they come out with a higher-end system.

I guess there's such a thing as too many players in the market.


Not according to classical economics. Looked at the DVD player market?

I was very impressed with the beam of the Fenix L2DCE, which has
sufficient peripheral illumination off to the side, in addition to
the powerful spot beam. You don't get that with most of the low-power
bicycle lights which often have a beam that is a compromise to focus
the limited output directly in front of the bicycle.


Well, at least you're persistent in your apologism for the incompetent
grasp of optics exhibited by most battery powered light makers.

It seems that many of the bicycle lights are charging so much just
because of the mount to the bicycle, there's nothing so special about
the lights themselves.


On this we agree.


Most of the dynamo headlights are very big compromises as well. However
with the low power battery powered headlights they make the mistake of
trying to project a beam that provides both peripheral and spot
illumination, without sufficient power. You end up with the worst of
both worlds. With most of the dynamo lights they're smart enough to give
up on peripheral illumination and just do a spot beam.
  #8  
Old September 19th 07, 04:27 PM posted to rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.tech
Clive George
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Posts: 5,394
Default So many new lighting systems, who's buying them all?

"SMS" wrote in message
...

Most of the dynamo headlights are very big compromises as well. However
with the low power battery powered headlights they make the mistake of
trying to project a beam that provides both peripheral and spot
illumination, without sufficient power. You end up with the worst of both
worlds. With most of the dynamo lights they're smart enough to give up on
peripheral illumination and just do a spot beam.


The beam pattern emitted by most of the non-bike-specific lamps - LEDs,
MR11, MR16 is pretty much circular. Ie rotate the thing, and it makes no
difference.

Thing is, for road riding at least, there's very little of interest in the
top 1/3 at least of the field of vision. In fact, most of the time there's
nothing at all. So why waste light sending it out there? Decent beam
focussing handles this, and it would help all lamps, not just dynamo ones.

With that in mind, why do you persist in advocating solutions which have
wasteful lenses?

clive

  #9  
Old September 19th 07, 08:51 PM posted to rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,477
Default So many new lighting systems, who's buying them all?

Clive George wrote:

With that in mind, why do you persist in advocating solutions which have
wasteful lenses?


What you don't understand is that all that light is not "wasted." You're
falling into the trap of misunderstanding of how lights work as both
"seeing" and "being seen" devices, as well as ignoring the advantages of
the symmetrical beam. You need to realize how important it is to have
not only a spot beam, but the light up the periphery as well.

Look at the Solidlights for example. Other than the 1103 model, they use
two or three circular lenses which results in some overlap, but the
resulting beam is still more symmetrical.

Read the review at "http://www.blayleys.com/articles/lights/page4.htm"
which states "The light is a symmetrical beam, rather than the focused
beam of most of the lights designed for the Schmidt dynohub. But there
is an advantage to this type of beam for PBP. One thing I have noticed
recently is how well road signs reflect back. For PBP, this means the
reflective arrows on route markings on signposts and in trees should be
quite visible."

It's great to see a device like the SolidLights 1203D on the market.
Finally a company that "gets it" and produced a bright, safe, light for
dynamo systems. Not cheap, but as Mike pointed out, with the relatively
small quantities of each type of high-end light, the quantities aren't
there to bring prices down.
  #10  
Old September 19th 07, 11:35 PM posted to rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.tech
Clive George
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Posts: 5,394
Default So many new lighting systems, who's buying them all?


"SMS" wrote in message
...
Clive George wrote:

With that in mind, why do you persist in advocating solutions which have
wasteful lenses?


What you don't understand is that all that light is not "wasted." You're
falling into the trap of misunderstanding of how lights work as both
"seeing" and "being seen" devices, as well as ignoring the advantages of
the symmetrical beam. You need to realize how important it is to have not
only a spot beam, but the light up the periphery as well.


How is lighting up the sky anything but wasting light? There's nothing there
to reflect back, there's nothing there which needs to see you.

FWIW my well-focussed B+M front lamp has no trouble with illuminating road
signs and "the periphery" - the sides need rather less light than the main
beam.

clive


 




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