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Octalink ES25 replacement?



 
 
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  #121  
Old August 19th 17, 03:50 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default Octalink ES25 replacement?

On 2017-08-19 07:42, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/19/2017 10:04 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-18 18:05, jbeattie wrote:


You have a mid-fi Fuji with parts that are at least a decade old (if
it has Octalink).



I have a low-fi Mitsubishi offroad vehicle. Yet that doesn't have any
problems whatsoever.


I _strongly_ suspect you exaggerate the reliability and longevity of
your motor vehicles even more than you exaggerate the faults of your
bicycles. I keep maintenance records on my cars, and I know what repairs
are necessary to keep a car running for my normal ten year replacement
cycle, let alone the 18 years I kept one car. Your claims about never
burning out even a dome light are totally unrealistic.


It's fact. Also, that vehicle is now at close to 78000 miles. Try that
with a bicycle.


... You purport to thrash that bike. Expect to replace
parts. Bike parts do not last as long as car parts.



Can anyone explain why not? And no, weight is IMO not the typical
reason. Cost isn't either.


I believe it's been explained many times.



It hasn't been.


... Cars parts do
not last as long as brass toilet parts. Brass toilet parts do not
last as long as Egyptian pyramids. Egyptian pyramids do not last as
long as the sun. The material world has a shelf-life. Embrace it.


Beats me why cyclists always accept premature failure of components as
"normal". A regular vehicle isn't supposed to need TLC and repairs
every 1k miles. So does that mean bicycles are inferior vehicles?


Personally, I don't accept "premature" failure of bike components as
normal. I accept _normal_ failure of components as normal.



So 5k miles for BBs is what you'd consider "normal"?


... I don't
expect bike tires to last 30,000 miles, bottom brackets to last 30 years
(even though one of mine did), mountain bikes to see no damage after
epic gonzo rides blasting over super-gnarly terrain while evading
mountain lions.


No gonzo rides. Normal trail riding on the MTB, normal longhaul rides on
the road bike.


I'm a mechanical engineer. I understand tradeoffs regarding weight,
cost and longevity. I also understand the influence of production volume
on cost and availability. I know why parts for a Chevy sold by the
millions are cheaper than nearly identical parts for a Maserati sold by
the thousands.


Then you should do what GM engineers should have done decades ago: Visit
Mitsubishi, Toyota or a similar company and shadow the engineers there.

[...]

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Ads
  #122  
Old August 19th 17, 05:23 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default Octalink ES25 replacement?

On Saturday, August 19, 2017 at 7:50:50 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-19 07:42, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/19/2017 10:04 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-18 18:05, jbeattie wrote:


You have a mid-fi Fuji with parts that are at least a decade old (if
it has Octalink).


I have a low-fi Mitsubishi offroad vehicle. Yet that doesn't have any
problems whatsoever.


I _strongly_ suspect you exaggerate the reliability and longevity of
your motor vehicles even more than you exaggerate the faults of your
bicycles. I keep maintenance records on my cars, and I know what repairs
are necessary to keep a car running for my normal ten year replacement
cycle, let alone the 18 years I kept one car. Your claims about never
burning out even a dome light are totally unrealistic.


It's fact. Also, that vehicle is now at close to 78000 miles. Try that
with a bicycle.


Hmm. Sounds like time for timing belt --or did you do that at 60K? What did that cost you? How about wheel bearing seals, brake pads, rotors? With all the super-gnarly roads, I would expect your shocks to be exhausted.

Now, I know that this is a gifted group, but most ordinary people (including me) can't/wont change a timing belt on a Mitsubishi. They would pay maybe $4-5 hundred for a shop to do that. Most people can do a wide range of repairs on a bicycle with a pocket tool. Ultegra BB -- $16.

You can buy a bullet-proof shaft drive bike. You should do that. https://www.biketownpdx.com/how-it-works/meet-the-bike People creep all over Portland on those things. I'm sure it would accept a growler cage.

-- Jay Beattie.

  #123  
Old August 19th 17, 07:34 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default Octalink ES25 replacement?

On 2017-08-19 09:23, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, August 19, 2017 at 7:50:50 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-19 07:42, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/19/2017 10:04 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-18 18:05, jbeattie wrote:


You have a mid-fi Fuji with parts that are at least a decade
old (if it has Octalink).


I have a low-fi Mitsubishi offroad vehicle. Yet that doesn't
have any problems whatsoever.

I _strongly_ suspect you exaggerate the reliability and longevity
of your motor vehicles even more than you exaggerate the faults
of your bicycles. I keep maintenance records on my cars, and I
know what repairs are necessary to keep a car running for my
normal ten year replacement cycle, let alone the 18 years I kept
one car. Your claims about never burning out even a dome light
are totally unrealistic.


It's fact. Also, that vehicle is now at close to 78000 miles. Try
that with a bicycle.


Hmm. Sounds like time for timing belt --or did you do that at 60K?
What did that cost you?



Handbook says at 100k. I did it anyhow after 15 years. Material costs
were under $200 but I didn't want to do it myself and paid the shop.
Pure PM, the old belt (it;s two in my case) were perfectly ok. My wife's
Toyota is not an impact engine so it still has the old belt after 22
years and runs fine.


... How about wheel bearing seals, brake pads,
rotors? With all the super-gnarly roads, I would expect your shocks
to be exhausted.


None of the above, so $0.00. Yes, this included gnarly "forest highways"
to haul firewood where I pushed the load limit of the vehicle. It hit
the rubbers the whole ride. Didn't bother it at all.


Now, I know that this is a gifted group, but most ordinary people
(including me) can't/wont change a timing belt on a Mitsubishi.



Not very difficult. Actually a teenager in the neighborhood does all the
timing belts on the family's cars. I mainly didn't do it because it
requires a lot of bending over and my lower back isn't in good shape.


... They
would pay maybe $4-5 hundred for a shop to do that. Most people can
do a wide range of repairs on a bicycle with a pocket tool. Ultegra
BB -- $16.


The vast majority of cyclists I know drop off their bikes at their LBS
to have that done. Also, a BB will not even budge using a pocket tool.
You and I have the tools to change it out that but most cyclists don't.


You can buy a bullet-proof shaft drive bike. You should do that.
https://www.biketownpdx.com/how-it-works/meet-the-bike People creep
all over Portland on those things. I'm sure it would accept a growler
cage.


That doesn't prevent BB wear :-)

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #124  
Old August 19th 17, 09:29 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default Octalink ES25 replacement?

On Saturday, August 19, 2017 at 11:34:03 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-19 09:23, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, August 19, 2017 at 7:50:50 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-19 07:42, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/19/2017 10:04 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-18 18:05, jbeattie wrote:


You have a mid-fi Fuji with parts that are at least a decade
old (if it has Octalink).


I have a low-fi Mitsubishi offroad vehicle. Yet that doesn't
have any problems whatsoever.

I _strongly_ suspect you exaggerate the reliability and longevity
of your motor vehicles even more than you exaggerate the faults
of your bicycles. I keep maintenance records on my cars, and I
know what repairs are necessary to keep a car running for my
normal ten year replacement cycle, let alone the 18 years I kept
one car. Your claims about never burning out even a dome light
are totally unrealistic.


It's fact. Also, that vehicle is now at close to 78000 miles. Try
that with a bicycle.


Hmm. Sounds like time for timing belt --or did you do that at 60K?
What did that cost you?



Handbook says at 100k. I did it anyhow after 15 years. Material costs
were under $200 but I didn't want to do it myself and paid the shop.
Pure PM, the old belt (it;s two in my case) were perfectly ok. My wife's
Toyota is not an impact engine so it still has the old belt after 22
years and runs fine.


... How about wheel bearing seals, brake pads,
rotors? With all the super-gnarly roads, I would expect your shocks
to be exhausted.


None of the above, so $0.00. Yes, this included gnarly "forest highways"
to haul firewood where I pushed the load limit of the vehicle. It hit
the rubbers the whole ride. Didn't bother it at all.


Now, I know that this is a gifted group, but most ordinary people
(including me) can't/wont change a timing belt on a Mitsubishi.



Not very difficult. Actually a teenager in the neighborhood does all the
timing belts on the family's cars. I mainly didn't do it because it
requires a lot of bending over and my lower back isn't in good shape.


... They
would pay maybe $4-5 hundred for a shop to do that. Most people can
do a wide range of repairs on a bicycle with a pocket tool. Ultegra
BB -- $16.


The vast majority of cyclists I know drop off their bikes at their LBS
to have that done. Also, a BB will not even budge using a pocket tool.
You and I have the tools to change it out that but most cyclists don't.


Obviously you don't use a pocket tool on a BB. The example was of the low price of replacing at least some wear parts on a bike.


You can buy a bullet-proof shaft drive bike. You should do that.

https://www.biketownpdx.com/how-it-works/meet-the-bike People creep
all over Portland on those things. I'm sure it would accept a growler
cage.


That doesn't prevent BB wear :-)


It certainly reduces wear on shaft bearings. http://dynamicbicyclesuk.co.uk/files...s%20uk%203.jpg All sealed, and with the arrangement of the gears, you could use a bushing instead of a bearing. Perfect. And the stout drive shaft could handle the weight of all the stuff in your pannier.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #125  
Old August 20th 17, 08:19 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 17
Default Octalink ES25 replacement?

On Sat, 19 Aug 2017 07:07:19 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-08-18 22:19, wrote:
On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 12:01:08 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-08-17 19:10, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/17/2017 7:13 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-17 07:17, jbeattie wrote:


I should be like Joerg and complain about spending money on
replacements. My crappy ISIS BB didn't last a lifetime! ISIS was
the only thing worse than Octalink.


And here you guys razz me for being too critical of the quality of
bicycle parts. In the automotive world a manufacturer with such
failure rates would be our business prontissimo.

Imagine you were a car commuter and the equivalent happened with your
car. The drive shafts conks out in due course, you go through
universal joints like Kleenex, the steering wheel breaks, then the
transmission wears out, in less than two years the wheel bearings
start singing the blues. Oh, and then the car's chassis develops a big
fat crack at a structurally critical location. A car owner would be up
in arms about that. Yet with bicycles we are expected to find this
perfectly normal?

There are choices, Joerg. You (like most of us here) choose to buy sport
bikes - that is, bikes that compete in the market by trying to be fairly
lightweight, bikes that use "innovative" designs for components, bikes
designed for higher performance or off-road banging about.


Since when is a XC MTB a sport bike? Also, I have an SUV, a _sport_
utility vehicle. In over 20 years not even a bulb in a dome light has
ever dared to burn out.


Being a enthusiast I'm sure that you know that the so called "SUV" was
developed in order to evade the CAFE standards, and clean air
regulations, by building a vehicle based on a pickup truck chasses and
classified as a truck so as not having to comply with the fuel
consumption and emissions laws regarding passenger cars..


Where did you pick up that urban legend? My SUV (built on a truck
chassis) must pass the very same emissions standards as the Mitsubishi
Eclipse which has the same engine. Gets tested every two years just like
passenger cars. Same for all the other SUVs around here.


What part of "was developed" is it that you do not understand?

Initially, way back when the SUV was invented the emissions standards
we

Tier 1:
Were phased in from 1994 to 1997, and were phased out in favor of the
national Tier 2 standard, from 2004 to 2009.

Tier I standards cover vehicles with a gross vehicular weight rating
(GVWR) below 8,500 pounds (3,856 kg) and are divided into five
categories: one for passenger cars, and four for light-duty trucks
(which include SUVs and minivans) divided up based on the vehicle
weight and cargo capacity.

"SUV" redirects here. For other uses, see SUV (disambiguation).

A sport utility vehicle or suburban utility vehicle (SUV) is a vehicle
classified as a light truck, but operated as a family vehicle

All from the Wiki
  #126  
Old August 20th 17, 09:06 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 17
Default Octalink ES25 replacement?

On Sat, 19 Aug 2017 07:09:14 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-08-18 22:06, wrote:
On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 11:56:24 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-08-17 19:13, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 17 Aug 2017 16:13:22 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-08-17 07:17, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, August 17, 2017 at 4:19:21 AM UTC-7,
wrote:
On Wednesday, August 16, 2017 at 8:26:09 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, August 16, 2017 at 6:56:17 PM UTC-7, John B.
wrote:
On Wed, 16 Aug 2017 16:08:13 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 8/16/2017 9:33 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-15 18:20, jbeattie wrote:


It depends. Aircraft frames can endure 30+ years without major
structural replacements unless the owner let corrosion fester. My
aluminum frame MTB impresses me by how stiff and robust the frame is (a
reason why I bought that particular model). Not even a dent underneath
the fat down tube where all the rocks hit. Rocks that when they hit my
shins make the blood flow.


That isn't true as aircraft undergo almost continuous inspections and
any damage is immediately repaired. The B-52H, for example, which was
built starting in 1961 had a major structural modification of the wing
structure in 1964. The DC-3 (C-47) which was used for the initial "gun
ships" in Vietnam days had literally thousands of modification orders.


We jumped out of the Dornier DO-27. Until it was 30 years old it never
had needed structural repairs. Just engine TBO and the usual stuff. The
only reason that this aircraft in perfect shape had to be retired from
commercial service was that the manufacturer was not willing to bless
the fuselage past the 30-year mark.


Probably shoddy stuff.



Huh? It is a very high quality aircraft. It's just that you can't get
insurance for commercial use in Europe if not blessed.


... Some of the DC-3's (C-47's) I worked on in
Vietnam were older then 30 years and still flying combat missions


Exactly. That's why there is no reason why aluminum bike frames should
fail as often as mentioned here.


Well, I can't comment on a 30 year old bicycle frame but from what I
see aluminum is not falling apart for no reason. On Sheldon's site
there is a reference to a test made on a number of frames. A
Cannondale CAAD3 (aluminum) frame completed the test without failing
and a Trek OCLV (carbon) frame also survived.

The test consisted if a load applied alternately to the right and than
the left pedals at 1200 N for the first 100,000 cycles and 1300 N for
the second 100,000 cycles. The test was said to produce visual frame
bending in the BB area.

In the high end frames aluminum frames seem to survive as well as CF.

But trying to compare aircraft and bicycles is probably futile as on
one hand you have a structure that is designed to support a specific
load level, with an adequate safety allowance, and inspected, and
repaired if necessary, at very frequent intervals versus a structure
that is designed to a weight limit and (apparently) expected to last
for ever without maintenance.
  #127  
Old August 20th 17, 03:19 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default Octalink ES25 replacement?

On 2017-08-19 13:29, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, August 19, 2017 at 11:34:03 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-19 09:23, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, August 19, 2017 at 7:50:50 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:


[...]


You can buy a bullet-proof shaft drive bike. You should do
that.
https://www.biketownpdx.com/how-it-works/meet-the-bike People
creep all over Portland on those things. I'm sure it would accept
a growler cage.


That doesn't prevent BB wear :-)


It certainly reduces wear on shaft bearings.
http://dynamicbicyclesuk.co.uk/files...s%20uk%203.jpg
All sealed, and with the arrangement of the gears, you could use a
bushing instead of a bearing. Perfect. And the stout drive shaft
could handle the weight of all the stuff in your pannier.


No argument there. If I needed a new bike and one with shaft drive was
available I'd certainly prefer that over chain-driven. There are many
reasons why BMW builds so many shaft-driven motorcycles.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #128  
Old August 20th 17, 03:21 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default Octalink ES25 replacement?

On 2017-08-20 00:19, wrote:
On Sat, 19 Aug 2017 07:07:19 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-08-18 22:19,
wrote:
On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 12:01:08 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-08-17 19:10, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/17/2017 7:13 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-17 07:17, jbeattie wrote:


I should be like Joerg and complain about spending money on
replacements. My crappy ISIS BB didn't last a lifetime! ISIS was
the only thing worse than Octalink.


And here you guys razz me for being too critical of the quality of
bicycle parts. In the automotive world a manufacturer with such
failure rates would be our business prontissimo.

Imagine you were a car commuter and the equivalent happened with your
car. The drive shafts conks out in due course, you go through
universal joints like Kleenex, the steering wheel breaks, then the
transmission wears out, in less than two years the wheel bearings
start singing the blues. Oh, and then the car's chassis develops a big
fat crack at a structurally critical location. A car owner would be up
in arms about that. Yet with bicycles we are expected to find this
perfectly normal?

There are choices, Joerg. You (like most of us here) choose to buy sport
bikes - that is, bikes that compete in the market by trying to be fairly
lightweight, bikes that use "innovative" designs for components, bikes
designed for higher performance or off-road banging about.


Since when is a XC MTB a sport bike? Also, I have an SUV, a _sport_
utility vehicle. In over 20 years not even a bulb in a dome light has
ever dared to burn out.


Being a enthusiast I'm sure that you know that the so called "SUV" was
developed in order to evade the CAFE standards, and clean air
regulations, by building a vehicle based on a pickup truck chasses and
classified as a truck so as not having to comply with the fuel
consumption and emissions laws regarding passenger cars..


Where did you pick up that urban legend? My SUV (built on a truck
chassis) must pass the very same emissions standards as the Mitsubishi
Eclipse which has the same engine. Gets tested every two years just like
passenger cars. Same for all the other SUVs around here.


What part of "was developed" is it that you do not understand?


It's still wrong. One of the first SUVs ever developed was the Unimog
and it had to pass inspections just like other cars. That was "a tad"
before 1994.


Initially, way back when the SUV was invented the emissions standards
we

Tier 1:
Were phased in from 1994 to 1997, and were phased out in favor of the
national Tier 2 standard, from 2004 to 2009.

Tier I standards cover vehicles with a gross vehicular weight rating
(GVWR) below 8,500 pounds (3,856 kg) and are divided into five
categories: one for passenger cars, and four for light-duty trucks
(which include SUVs and minivans) divided up based on the vehicle
weight and cargo capacity.

"SUV" redirects here. For other uses, see SUV (disambiguation).

A sport utility vehicle or suburban utility vehicle (SUV) is a vehicle
classified as a light truck, but operated as a family vehicle

All from the Wiki


Yeah, and Wiki knows it all.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #129  
Old August 20th 17, 03:37 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,345
Default Octalink ES25 replacement?

On Friday, August 18, 2017 at 6:11:41 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/18/2017 8:05 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, August 18, 2017 at 4:10:10 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-18 13:32, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Friday, August 18, 2017 at 3:01:02 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-17 19:10, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/17/2017 7:13 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-17 07:17, jbeattie wrote:


I should be like Joerg and complain about spending money on
replacements. My crappy ISIS BB didn't last a lifetime! ISIS was
the only thing worse than Octalink.


And here you guys razz me for being too critical of the quality of
bicycle parts. In the automotive world a manufacturer with such
failure rates would be our business prontissimo.

Imagine you were a car commuter and the equivalent happened with your
car. The drive shafts conks out in due course, you go through
universal joints like Kleenex, the steering wheel breaks, then the
transmission wears out, in less than two years the wheel bearings
start singing the blues. Oh, and then the car's chassis develops a big
fat crack at a structurally critical location. A car owner would be up
in arms about that. Yet with bicycles we are expected to find this
perfectly normal?

There are choices, Joerg. You (like most of us here) choose to buy sport
bikes - that is, bikes that compete in the market by trying to be fairly
lightweight, bikes that use "innovative" designs for components, bikes
designed for higher performance or off-road banging about.


Since when is a XC MTB a sport bike? Also, I have an SUV, a _sport_
utility vehicle. In over 20 years not even a bulb in a dome light has
ever dared to burn out.


You have the opportunity to buy bikes with much stouter components. Buy
yourself one of the upright Dutch utility bikes! Every part of it would
probably last much longer than what you chose to buy. Yes, it may weigh
50 pounds, but you've repeatedly told us you don't care about weight.

  #130  
Old August 20th 17, 03:46 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,345
Default Octalink ES25 replacement?

On Saturday, August 19, 2017 at 7:09:03 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-18 22:06, wrote:
On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 11:56:24 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-08-17 19:13, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 17 Aug 2017 16:13:22 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-08-17 07:17, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, August 17, 2017 at 4:19:21 AM UTC-7,
wrote:
On Wednesday, August 16, 2017 at 8:26:09 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, August 16, 2017 at 6:56:17 PM UTC-7, John B.
wrote:
On Wed, 16 Aug 2017 16:08:13 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 8/16/2017 9:33 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-15 18:20, jbeattie wrote:


It depends. Aircraft frames can endure 30+ years without major
structural replacements unless the owner let corrosion fester. My
aluminum frame MTB impresses me by how stiff and robust the frame is (a
reason why I bought that particular model). Not even a dent underneath
the fat down tube where all the rocks hit. Rocks that when they hit my
shins make the blood flow.


That isn't true as aircraft undergo almost continuous inspections and
any damage is immediately repaired. The B-52H, for example, which was
built starting in 1961 had a major structural modification of the wing
structure in 1964. The DC-3 (C-47) which was used for the initial "gun
ships" in Vietnam days had literally thousands of modification orders..


We jumped out of the Dornier DO-27. Until it was 30 years old it never
had needed structural repairs. Just engine TBO and the usual stuff. The
only reason that this aircraft in perfect shape had to be retired from
commercial service was that the manufacturer was not willing to bless
the fuselage past the 30-year mark.


Probably shoddy stuff.



Huh? It is a very high quality aircraft. It's just that you can't get
insurance for commercial use in Europe if not blessed.


... Some of the DC-3's (C-47's) I worked on in
Vietnam were older then 30 years and still flying combat missions


Exactly. That's why there is no reason why aluminum bike frames should
fail as often as mentioned here.


I have looked on the web and only see the occasional aluminum frame failure and have yet to see a catastrophic failure like carbon fiber frames incur far too often if not "often".

In real life I have been told about some Cannondale failures but they were REALLY old frames ridden very often off-road where a road bike might expect failures. And again these were not catastrophic and usually were only discovered cleaning the bike up after an unusual ride.
 




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