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  #81  
Old August 3rd 18, 02:10 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,546
Default question about climbing

Roger Merriman wrote:
Joerg wrote:
On 2018-08-02 10:19, Roger Merriman wrote:
Joerg wrote:
On 2018-08-02 07:39, Roger Merriman wrote:
Joerg wrote:
On 2018-07-27 14:29, Theodore Heise wrote:
On Fri, 27 Jul 2018 14:22:43 -0700,
Joerg wrote:
On 2018-07-27 14:07, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, July 27, 2018 at 12:17:46 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-07-22 11:33, wrote:

[...]

... Any climbing experts in this group.

I am certainly not one. To me climbs are just a necessary
evil of living in a hilly area. It's always a net 1200ft
coming back from the valley with lots of ups and downs in
between. Unfortunately it is not always possible to let'er
rip on the downhills to gain momentum.

You should get a Garmin or ride with someone who has one to
see what the real elevation gain is between Sacto and Cameron
Park. Saw-tooth climbs count extra, probably 50%.

Good idea. This weekend I'll be riding with someone who has one
of those fancy GPS-driven "bicycle computers". Maybe it has
grade measurement, I'll ask him.

I use a Garmin Edge 500, not too pricey (nor big) and includes a
barometer. It can display grade on the fly, though it's not
always terribly accurate. On sustained climbs, it usually settles
in to something that is pretty close to real.


https://www.amazon.com/Garmin-Heart-...dp/B010SDBFIE/

Over 300 bucks! In my book that is pricey. I think I'll continue living
not knowing what grade I just cycled up.


I did 1,200 feet of climbing in about three or so miles...

That works out to a little under 8% constant grade--very
respectable!


It is.

Next week I'll have to go up something that probably does this in less
than two miles, on dirt with loose gravel. Not looking forward to that
section of trail except on the way back when we can bomb down those
switchbacks. Good thing is that my MTB has a granny gear.


You can use sites such as www.strava.com to see climbs in your area, and
average gradients, peak grades aren’t terribly accurate, as you’d expect.


How does one find that information about a certain grade without being a
member there? Or maybe with being a member. Yesterday I asked a riding
buddy who has a smart phone to sign up while he was over for dinner. If
that's not possible we'll just have to ride these grades again now that
he is signed up.


You can search for them with out being a member though does rely on knowing
what the segment name for said hill is!

One nr? You may be https://www.strava.com/segments/1009727

The app has a fairly good interface for looking at segments, the web site
is not very good to be honest! In that it doesn’t show all segments and as
you move the map it changes etc.


Can't search anything there, it wants me to sign in. Oh well, I'll just
ride those grades this weekend with a buddy who signed up for Strava
yesterday. Then we should know.


I use Strava to plan routes, to follow/mildly guided on my Garmin.

I’m fairly heavy but I’m a slow but strong climber so gradients don’t phase
me.


Same here except I really don't enjoy climbs. At all. I get up there
alright but grudgingly. The other downside of being a heavier rider with
lots of leg muscle is the frequent pretzeling of spokes and freehubs.
For me that usually happens on steep hills. Having bought and loaded
some supplies in the valley doesn't help. On the MTB I managed to crunch
a freehub within the warranty period and the bike shop owner said that
was a first.


Not within strava no you’ll need to search using Google/search engine of
choice, for example Pikes peak Strava Segments will give you those, such as
https://www.strava.com/local/us/colorado-springs/cycling/routes/1521
people don’t always use sensible names, MTBers in particular often use
silly names.

Or just sign up, and can search your area, costs nothing etc.

Roger Merriman



With RideWithGPS you can plot the course and it will show you the elevation
profile.

https://ridewithgps.com


--
duane
Ads
  #82  
Old August 3rd 18, 02:49 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 824
Default question about climbing

Op vrijdag 3 augustus 2018 00:06:00 UTC+2 schreef :

Here's an image Sergio sent from one of those climbs:

http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...t/sergdol2.jpg


Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971



Over here it is midnight and, not being able yet to fall asleep, I came back to my desk.
So here is a timely addendum to Andrew's.

That shot was taken some 25 years ago almost at the summit of the most beautiful road I have ever experienced.
It is Passo del Nivolet, in the western Alps between Piemonte and Valle d'Aosta.
The summit is at 2612 meters above sea level, inside Parco Nazionale del Gran Paradiso. After the summit there is a rather long plateau in a beautiful setting. From there on the path becomes a trail ultimately descending to Pont.

That time I carried on after the summit and hiked, while carrying the bike on my shoulder, to the village down below.

Hoping someone is listening let me strongly recommend him that ride, at least from Ceresole Reale to Nivolet (if not going over all the way).

Sergio
Pisa


I'm listening. That is a serious climb over 26 km:

https://www.cyclingcols.com/col/Nivolet

Lou
  #83  
Old August 3rd 18, 03:55 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default question about climbing

On 2018-08-02 16:59, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, August 2, 2018 at 11:50:10 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-08-02 11:07, jbeattie wrote:


[...]


... He rides on the road, and for the last four years before
returning home to PDX, most of his riding involved high-angle
climbing in the canyons of the Wasatch riding with the University
of Utah team. Until he got his Trek, he was riding my CAAD 9 with
wheels that I built for him that are in beautiful shape to this
day -- old Ultegra hubs, DT 14/15 3X spokes (32) and el-cheapo DT
R460 rims. He did get a spoke hole crack on a predecessor DT
R450, but no failures. You are buying junk or doing something
wrong if you are ruining freehubs and spokes with your massive
leg muscles.


It's ok stuff, Mavic rims, stainless spokes, Shimano freehubs,
Shimano BB (I buy the most expensive versions for each bike). A few
thousand miles into it the BB on the road bike starts clicking
again. Hurumph! I no longer care much about such noise and ride it
until the play is so bad that the FD isn't wide enough for it. With
friction shifters you can let that go quite far.

Are the loud "angry bee" freehubs that some riders use better and
Shimano-compatible?


Octalink BBs suck, although not as bad as ISIS. Both suffer from
too-small balls, although you may just need to reinstall with some
teflon tape. That often cures snaps and creaks -- but if it is a
pitted/deformed ball, you're screwed.


I only have Octalink on the MTB. Getting less than 10000mi there is
(somewhat) ok. For a bicycle. Because it's exposed to crazy amounts of
dust, water animal poop, rock hits and who knows what. On the road bike
I have square taper. Until recently the adjustable ones with loose ball
cages. It's not the balls or the cups that wore but the spindle
surfaces. Of course, with these I could get a 2nd life out of them by
mounting everything offset by 180 degrees. 3rd and 4th lives not so much
because the pitting was over more than 90 degrees but one could milk
another few thousand miles there as well.

Those have become unobtanium so I mounted a UN44 cartridge BB, the more
pricey version with all metal cups. That disappoints a little in that it
already starts clicking.


The angry-bee hubs are only better in that they have more points of
engagement. 72 points of engagement with CK ring drive!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pM1DJCryVEk Woohoo! My power is
delivered .00001 second faster. I guess its a pretty tough design,
but far too pricey for me.


To me only longevity and robustness counts. Price, too, but I'd be
willing to spend $100 if it was lasting seriously longer. Weight does
not matter. What I think causes the pawl failures on my freehubs is the
wearing out of their bearings and then the pawls don't engage straight
anymore. Over just a few thousand miles the freehub develops serious
bearing play. Shimano, Formula, brand doesn't seem to matter. That can't
be good, especially during rain rides or on dusty trails.


Whether other angry bee designs are better in terms of longevity
depends on bearing and metal quality. My OE Norco rear hub has a nice
buzzing sound, but I would bet that they are dirt cheap Joytech OE
hubs with equally cheap cartridge bearings.

And yes the angry bees are Shimano compatible unless you accidentally
buy a Campagnolo compatible hub.


Thanks, good to know. I just hear a lot of the local road bikers having
such freehubs. On a downhill you can hear them coming ... GRRRRRRR


I need to press in a new bearing cartridge on my son's Vison Metron
front wheel, which has a woefully undersized cartridge, IMO. I think
they wanted to keep the flanges and hub body small. Anyway, knocking
out and pressing in cartridges is more work than greasing some big,
burly balls, but I guess the upside is that you never have to worry
about wearing out a bearing cup or cone. I leave it to Andrew to
opine on the durability issues of the two designs. My Shimano hubs
have lasted a long time, and my Dura Ace wheels run really smoothly
and have been durable so far.


My dad usually didn't do such jobs for me, just once. He said "Son,
today I am going to show you how it's done so next time you can do it
yourself" :-)

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #84  
Old August 3rd 18, 06:31 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default question about climbing

On Friday, August 3, 2018 at 7:55:08 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-08-02 16:59, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, August 2, 2018 at 11:50:10 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-08-02 11:07, jbeattie wrote:


[...]


... He rides on the road, and for the last four years before
returning home to PDX, most of his riding involved high-angle
climbing in the canyons of the Wasatch riding with the University
of Utah team. Until he got his Trek, he was riding my CAAD 9 with
wheels that I built for him that are in beautiful shape to this
day -- old Ultegra hubs, DT 14/15 3X spokes (32) and el-cheapo DT
R460 rims. He did get a spoke hole crack on a predecessor DT
R450, but no failures. You are buying junk or doing something
wrong if you are ruining freehubs and spokes with your massive
leg muscles.


It's ok stuff, Mavic rims, stainless spokes, Shimano freehubs,
Shimano BB (I buy the most expensive versions for each bike). A few
thousand miles into it the BB on the road bike starts clicking
again. Hurumph! I no longer care much about such noise and ride it
until the play is so bad that the FD isn't wide enough for it. With
friction shifters you can let that go quite far.

Are the loud "angry bee" freehubs that some riders use better and
Shimano-compatible?


Octalink BBs suck, although not as bad as ISIS. Both suffer from
too-small balls, although you may just need to reinstall with some
teflon tape. That often cures snaps and creaks -- but if it is a
pitted/deformed ball, you're screwed.


I only have Octalink on the MTB. Getting less than 10000mi there is
(somewhat) ok. For a bicycle. Because it's exposed to crazy amounts of
dust, water animal poop, rock hits and who knows what. On the road bike
I have square taper. Until recently the adjustable ones with loose ball
cages. It's not the balls or the cups that wore but the spindle
surfaces. Of course, with these I could get a 2nd life out of them by
mounting everything offset by 180 degrees. 3rd and 4th lives not so much
because the pitting was over more than 90 degrees but one could milk
another few thousand miles there as well.

Those have become unobtanium so I mounted a UN44 cartridge BB, the more
pricey version with all metal cups. That disappoints a little in that it
already starts clicking.


The angry-bee hubs are only better in that they have more points of
engagement. 72 points of engagement with CK ring drive!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pM1DJCryVEk Woohoo! My power is
delivered .00001 second faster. I guess its a pretty tough design,
but far too pricey for me.


To me only longevity and robustness counts. Price, too, but I'd be
willing to spend $100 if it was lasting seriously longer. Weight does
not matter. What I think causes the pawl failures on my freehubs is the
wearing out of their bearings and then the pawls don't engage straight
anymore. Over just a few thousand miles the freehub develops serious
bearing play. Shimano, Formula, brand doesn't seem to matter. That can't
be good, especially during rain rides or on dusty trails.


Whether other angry bee designs are better in terms of longevity
depends on bearing and metal quality. My OE Norco rear hub has a nice
buzzing sound, but I would bet that they are dirt cheap Joytech OE
hubs with equally cheap cartridge bearings.

And yes the angry bees are Shimano compatible unless you accidentally
buy a Campagnolo compatible hub.


Thanks, good to know. I just hear a lot of the local road bikers having
such freehubs. On a downhill you can hear them coming ... GRRRRRRR


I need to press in a new bearing cartridge on my son's Vison Metron
front wheel, which has a woefully undersized cartridge, IMO. I think
they wanted to keep the flanges and hub body small. Anyway, knocking
out and pressing in cartridges is more work than greasing some big,
burly balls, but I guess the upside is that you never have to worry
about wearing out a bearing cup or cone. I leave it to Andrew to
opine on the durability issues of the two designs. My Shimano hubs
have lasted a long time, and my Dura Ace wheels run really smoothly
and have been durable so far.


My dad usually didn't do such jobs for me, just once. He said "Son,
today I am going to show you how it's done so next time you can do it
yourself" :-)


I'll make him watch, whether he does future replacements is yet to be seen. He did bicycle assembly at one shop, but he's not a devoted mechanic. He is more clever getting warranty work, though, and doesn't mind taking things to a shop. This might just be a warranty job. We'll see. I did some adjusting, and the bearings are passable, but one cartridge is clearly on its way out. He's already gotten a full wheelset replacement because the first set had a bad angry bee freehub or some other problem. My father gave me some excellent electrical wiring advice, which I follow to this day: "don't stand in a puddle." Cutting the power was optional. He didn't know anything about fixing bikes.

-- Jay Beattie.





  #85  
Old August 3rd 18, 06:36 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,270
Default question about climbing

On Friday, August 3, 2018 at 10:55:08 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
Snipped
Those have become unobtanium so I mounted a UN44 cartridge BB, the more
pricey version with all metal cups. That disappoints a little in that it
already starts clicking.

Snipped

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/


You have the old Shimano 600 on your bike? Is it the Arabesque stuff? You might want to check the taper of the spindle and the crank arms. IIRC Shimano changed it.

Cheers
  #86  
Old August 3rd 18, 06:55 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default question about climbing

On 2018-08-03 10:31, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, August 3, 2018 at 7:55:08 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-08-02 16:59, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, August 2, 2018 at 11:50:10 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-08-02 11:07, jbeattie wrote:


[...]


... He rides on the road, and for the last four years before
returning home to PDX, most of his riding involved
high-angle climbing in the canyons of the Wasatch riding with
the University of Utah team. Until he got his Trek, he was
riding my CAAD 9 with wheels that I built for him that are in
beautiful shape to this day -- old Ultegra hubs, DT 14/15 3X
spokes (32) and el-cheapo DT R460 rims. He did get a spoke
hole crack on a predecessor DT R450, but no failures. You are
buying junk or doing something wrong if you are ruining
freehubs and spokes with your massive leg muscles.


It's ok stuff, Mavic rims, stainless spokes, Shimano freehubs,
Shimano BB (I buy the most expensive versions for each bike). A
few thousand miles into it the BB on the road bike starts
clicking again. Hurumph! I no longer care much about such noise
and ride it until the play is so bad that the FD isn't wide
enough for it. With friction shifters you can let that go quite
far.

Are the loud "angry bee" freehubs that some riders use better
and Shimano-compatible?

Octalink BBs suck, although not as bad as ISIS. Both suffer
from too-small balls, although you may just need to reinstall
with some teflon tape. That often cures snaps and creaks -- but
if it is a pitted/deformed ball, you're screwed.


I only have Octalink on the MTB. Getting less than 10000mi there
is (somewhat) ok. For a bicycle. Because it's exposed to crazy
amounts of dust, water animal poop, rock hits and who knows what.
On the road bike I have square taper. Until recently the adjustable
ones with loose ball cages. It's not the balls or the cups that
wore but the spindle surfaces. Of course, with these I could get a
2nd life out of them by mounting everything offset by 180 degrees.
3rd and 4th lives not so much because the pitting was over more
than 90 degrees but one could milk another few thousand miles there
as well.

Those have become unobtanium so I mounted a UN44 cartridge BB, the
more pricey version with all metal cups. That disappoints a little
in that it already starts clicking.


The angry-bee hubs are only better in that they have more points
of engagement. 72 points of engagement with CK ring drive!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pM1DJCryVEk Woohoo! My power is
delivered .00001 second faster. I guess its a pretty tough
design, but far too pricey for me.


To me only longevity and robustness counts. Price, too, but I'd be
willing to spend $100 if it was lasting seriously longer. Weight
does not matter. What I think causes the pawl failures on my
freehubs is the wearing out of their bearings and then the pawls
don't engage straight anymore. Over just a few thousand miles the
freehub develops serious bearing play. Shimano, Formula, brand
doesn't seem to matter. That can't be good, especially during rain
rides or on dusty trails.


Whether other angry bee designs are better in terms of longevity
depends on bearing and metal quality. My OE Norco rear hub has a
nice buzzing sound, but I would bet that they are dirt cheap
Joytech OE hubs with equally cheap cartridge bearings.

And yes the angry bees are Shimano compatible unless you
accidentally buy a Campagnolo compatible hub.


Thanks, good to know. I just hear a lot of the local road bikers
having such freehubs. On a downhill you can hear them coming ...
GRRRRRRR


I need to press in a new bearing cartridge on my son's Vison
Metron front wheel, which has a woefully undersized cartridge,
IMO. I think they wanted to keep the flanges and hub body small.
Anyway, knocking out and pressing in cartridges is more work than
greasing some big, burly balls, but I guess the upside is that
you never have to worry about wearing out a bearing cup or cone.
I leave it to Andrew to opine on the durability issues of the two
designs. My Shimano hubs have lasted a long time, and my Dura Ace
wheels run really smoothly and have been durable so far.


My dad usually didn't do such jobs for me, just once. He said
"Son, today I am going to show you how it's done so next time you
can do it yourself" :-)


I'll make him watch, whether he does future replacements is yet to be
seen. He did bicycle assembly at one shop, but he's not a devoted
mechanic. He is more clever getting warranty work, though, ...



.... and in getting his dad to do the work. In the Netherlands we had a
word for that but it isn't a very nice one :-)


... and
doesn't mind taking things to a shop. This might just be a warranty
job. We'll see. I did some adjusting, and the bearings are
passable, but one cartridge is clearly on its way out. He's already
gotten a full wheelset replacement because the first set had a bad
angry bee freehub or some other problem. My father gave me some
excellent electrical wiring advice, which I follow to this day:
"don't stand in a puddle." Cutting the power was optional. He didn't
know anything about fixing bikes.


My first boss used to be an electrician before he got his EE degree. He
isn't very tall and his solution for live work on circuits was to stand
onto an inverted bucket. If he accidentally touched more than one metal
part and they were at different potential he'd (hopefully) get the
shakes and fall off the bucket.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #87  
Old August 3rd 18, 07:00 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default question about climbing

On 2018-08-03 10:36, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, August 3, 2018 at 10:55:08 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote: Snipped
Those have become unobtanium so I mounted a UN44 cartridge BB, the
more pricey version with all metal cups. That disappoints a little
in that it already starts clicking.

Snipped

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/


You have the old Shimano 600 on your bike? Is it the Arabesque stuff?
You might want to check the taper of the spindle and the crank arms.
IIRC Shimano changed it.


It's 600-EX, not Arabesque. Before buying that new UN44 BB I spent some
time figuring out that I got one with the correct taper. Turns out mine
has standard JIS taper. It fit like a glove and I didn't even have to
adjust the front derailer.

A dealer actually had the wrong taper listed for the UN44 BB's they
offered. I wrote an email to alert them but never heard back. That would
be a bummer if someone installed it only to find out it won't fit the
cranks.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
 




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