Critical

Here's an item from NY:

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2008/12/16-3

You may have seen this elsewhere.

Jobst Brandt

On Dec 17, 7:53*pm, wrote:
Here's an item from NY:

*http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2008/12/16-3

You may have seen this elsewhere.

Jobst Brandt

Police over-reactions cannot be condoned, but what do you say about
Critical Mass? IMHO, it does bike riders at large more harm than good.

"Ron Wallenfang" wrote in message
...

Police over-reactions cannot be condoned, but what do you say about
Critical Mass? IMHO, it does bike riders at large more harm than good.

Oooh, there's a question which has never been asked before. Wait - isn't
there some archival system for usenet where you can check such things out?

On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 18:03:13 -0800 (PST), Ron Wallenfang
wrote:

On Dec 17, 7:53*pm, wrote:
Here's an item from NY:

*http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2008/12/16-3

You may have seen this elsewhere.

Jobst Brandt

Police over-reactions cannot be condoned, but what do you say about
Critical Mass? IMHO, it does bike riders at large more harm than good.

Your comments remind me of stuff we hear sometimes when cyclists are
hit by drivers: "Well, it's too bad that person got hit. But so many
cyclists run red lights. I'm not blaming that specific cyclist, but
really cyclists ought to behave better..."

On Dec 17, 6:03 pm, Ron Wallenfang wrote:
On Dec 17, 7:53 pm, wrote:

Here's an item from NY:

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2008/12/16-3

You may have seen this elsewhere.

Jobst Brandt

Police over-reactions cannot be condoned...

Sounds like the most serious charges have to do with falsifying
official reports in an effort to fabricate a justification for the
"over-reaction" (the frame-up cover-up)

I saw that video before, and while it notably did not show what the
bicyclist must obviously have done to **** off that cop so badly (I'm
thinking maybe flipped him off and/or maybe weaved around as if to
possibly veer toward him), by the time the bike got close the rider
was clearly not trying to hit the cop, and the cop's actions were
outrageous.

... but what do you say about
Critical Mass?

Well, I think it might be kind of an over-reaction, if you will, and
probably a bastion of some ad-hoc anarchists, but the way things are
out there it could require some dramatic action to even get people
thinking about sharing the road.

IMHO, it does bike riders at large more harm than good.

People probably said the same thing about Civil Rights demonstrations,
and you may be right - at least among some people and in the short
term. I guess Critical Mass can be kind of belligerent, but it seems
like so many people really don't think bikes belong on the roads at
all, and if this gets them to consider the matter, one way or another,
and they begin to learn the law instead of just carrying their
ignorant notions around to the detriment of cyclists everywhere,
well...

In article ,
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:

On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 18:03:13 -0800 (PST), Ron Wallenfang
wrote:

On Dec 17, 7:53*pm, wrote:
Here's an item from NY:

*http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2008/12/16-3

You may have seen this elsewhere.

Jobst Brandt

Police over-reactions cannot be condoned, but what do you say about
Critical Mass? IMHO, it does bike riders at large more harm than
good.

Your comments remind me of stuff we hear sometimes when cyclists are
hit by drivers: "Well, it's too bad that person got hit. But so many
cyclists run red lights. I'm not blaming that specific cyclist, but
really cyclists ought to behave better..."

Well, Critical Mass is a form of civil disobedience. Generally
speaking, however, it's most effective when the purpose of the civil
disobedience is clearly promulgated so that onlookers get the point.
For many bystanders, Critical Mass is just a form of hooliganism and
does not communicate the desired message. As a result of this, Critical
Mass is basically an incompetent form of civil disobedience and probably
is not providing a net benefit for cyclists.

On Dec 17, 7:17*pm, Tim McNamara wrote:
In article ,
*John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:





On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 18:03:13 -0800 (PST), Ron Wallenfang
wrote:

On Dec 17, 7:53*pm, wrote:
Here's an item from NY:

*http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2008/12/16-3

You may have seen this elsewhere.

Jobst Brandt

Police over-reactions cannot be condoned, but what do you say about
Critical Mass? *IMHO, it does bike riders at large more harm than
good.

Your comments remind me of stuff we hear sometimes when cyclists are
hit by drivers: "Well, it's too bad that person got hit. But so many
cyclists run red lights. I'm not blaming that specific cyclist, but
really cyclists ought to behave better..."

Well, Critical Mass is a form of civil disobedience. *Generally
speaking, however, it's most effective when the purpose of the civil
disobedience is clearly promulgated so that onlookers get the point. *
For many bystanders, Critical Mass is just a form of hooliganism and
does not communicate the desired message. *As a result of this, Critical
Mass is basically an incompetent form of civil disobedience and probably
is not providing a net benefit for cyclists.- Hide quoted text -

Even hooligans have rights, regrettably. -- Anton Scalia.

On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 21:17:58 -0600, Tim McNamara
wrote:

Well, Critical Mass is a form of civil disobedience.

Not always true. Lots or most of Critical Mass participants in my
city break no laws at all, though they disobey police orders to not
ride on the street. The courts have routinely said the police don't
have the power to give such order and have tossed tickets and arrests
based on them.

On Thu, 18 Dec 2008 04:11:42 GMT, John Forrest Tomlinson
wrote:

On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 21:17:58 -0600, Tim McNamara
wrote:

Well, Critical Mass is a form of civil disobedience.

Not always true. Lots or most of Critical Mass participants in my
city break no laws at all, though they disobey police orders to not
ride on the street. The courts have routinely said the police don't
have the power to give such order and have tossed tickets and arrests
based on them.

One other thing -- that's some Manhattan Critical Masses. Supposedly
in Brooklyn Critical Mass typically doesn't have any police or
government action against it at all - it's just a bunch of people
riding bikes in the streets legally. Doesn't get as much news
coverage...

On Dec 17, 8:37*pm, Dan O wrote:

Well, I think it might be kind of an over-reaction, if you will, and
probably a bastion of some ad-hoc anarchists, but the way things are
out there it could require some dramatic action to even get people
thinking about sharing the road.

What a laugh. What "sharing the road" do you see in that clip?

"Critical Mass" will be an effective force for promoting cycling when
they start obeying laws as part of their public demonstration.

Looked to me like the cop was trying to get out of the way, and the
cyclist aimed for him, trying to intimidate him and "get a reaction",
force the cop to change his path, whatever you want to call it.

A similar thing happened to me at the hands of CM. Yeah, I was trying
to get away, one of the assholes blocked me (in my car with the bike
rack on top and my toddler daughter clearly visible in her car seat),
and his unwashed buddies hooted and mocked me-- "Yeah! Yeah! Get
him!!" Ironic, they were in a CM follow car. Buncha jerks, doing the
same thing to every motorist and pedestrian they could, daring people
to hit them, just begging to start a fight. Scum, "not worth it" here.

Too bad the cop didn't stop with the (excellently laid on) forearm
shiver, he might have gotten away with it on grounds of "self
defense".
--D-y