A $5000 Cervolo CF and a Target bike

On 11/14/2014 8:46 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:


So, someone buys a chap bike and gets you to coreect any setup errors.
Thus tthey've save about $100.00 or more.

That's true for the tiny percentage that happen to know me. But I
suspect most folks who buy cheap (not "chap") bikes don't have anyone to
help them.

People who are intending to be just casual riders don't need to be
buying high end stuff unless they want it.

Oh, I agree. But it's a shame that so many buy bikes that are way below
low-end, and improperly set up as well.

The last such bike I worked on had a surprisingly good-looking frame.
And I think any Shimano drive train can be considered pretty reliable;
so some things have improved a lot. But the hub bearings really were
junk, the suspension fork was a joke, and the assembly was literally
hazardous.

And bike shops don't have to sell only high-end bikes. One area shop,
in business for roughly 100 years, regularly uses its history and the
owner's industry contacts and bargaining skill to score closeouts from
very reputable manufacturers. That shop frequently (not always) has
previous years' comfort or hybrid bikes at incredible sale prices,
barely above those of typical discount store bikes.

I wonder if bike shops have loss leaders at the low end of the tech
spectrum, to generate new customer relationships? It might make sense.


There are many videos and or books available to anyone to look at to
be sure ttheir bike is set up properly.

I think it's easy for us to underestimate the necessary mechanical
skills; or to overestimate the mechanical competence of the average
person. As I've related, there are some extremely intelligent people
out there who can't handle any mechanical work at all. All the YouTubes
in the world won't help much.

Taking a bike to or buying a bike from a bike shop does NOT FUARANTEE
that tthe setup will be right.

True. I've repaired bike shop work, too. But I think one's odds are
far better at a LBS than at Toys-R-Us.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Friday, November 14, 2014 8:11:36 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/14/2014 8:46 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:


So, someone buys a chap bike and gets you to coreect any setup errors.
Thus tthey've save about $100.00 or more.

That's true for the tiny percentage that happen to know me. But I
suspect most folks who buy cheap (not "chap") bikes don't have anyone to
help them.

People who are intending to be just casual riders don't need to be
buying high end stuff unless they want it.

Oh, I agree. But it's a shame that so many buy bikes that are way below
low-end, and improperly set up as well.

The last such bike I worked on had a surprisingly good-looking frame.
And I think any Shimano drive train can be considered pretty reliable;
so some things have improved a lot. But the hub bearings really were
junk, the suspension fork was a joke, and the assembly was literally
hazardous.

Tomorrow's landfill today! The deal is that these dime-store bikes have no resale value and end up as junk. For a few bucks more, you can get either a decent used bike off Craigslist or a new bike, if you watch the sales at REI or Performance (not to mention Bicycles Direct or the other internet retailers). Plus, you can sell it later if you decide to get something better. Not that I would buy a bicycle for an investment, but one should consider resale value.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 11/14/2014 9:21 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, November 14, 2014 8:11:36 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/14/2014 8:46 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:


So, someone buys a chap bike and gets you to coreect any setup errors.
Thus tthey've save about $100.00 or more.

That's true for the tiny percentage that happen to know me. But I
suspect most folks who buy cheap (not "chap") bikes don't have anyone to
help them.

People who are intending to be just casual riders don't need to be
buying high end stuff unless they want it.

Oh, I agree. But it's a shame that so many buy bikes that are way below
low-end, and improperly set up as well.

The last such bike I worked on had a surprisingly good-looking frame.
And I think any Shimano drive train can be considered pretty reliable;
so some things have improved a lot. But the hub bearings really were
junk, the suspension fork was a joke, and the assembly was literally
hazardous.

Tomorrow's landfill today! The deal is that these dime-store bikes have no resale value and end up as junk. For a few bucks more, you can get either a decent used bike off Craigslist or a new bike, if you watch the sales at REI or Performance (not to mention Bicycles Direct or the other internet retailers). Plus, you can sell it later if you decide to get something better. Not that I would buy a bicycle for an investment, but one should consider resale value.

No one buys a new bicycle with any concern about resale value.

The issue is that the department store bicycles are so poorly assembled
and have such poor components, that they are bought, ridden a few times,
and then the purchaser decides that cycling sucks. The store doesn't
provide any service and a bicycle shop willing to work on a $100 bicycle
is going to have to inform the customer that the service is likely to
cost more than the bicycle.

Much better off buying something in the $350-450 range at a store like
REI where there are sales or 10% rebates.

For a bicycle ridden to school, or kept at college, this all changes of
course. A beater from craigslist may be fine. But at my daughter's
college, if you live off campus, you need a decent enough bike to climb
a long steep hill to campus.

On Friday, November 14, 2014 11:11:36 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/14/2014 8:46 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:


So, someone buys a chap bike and gets you to coreect any setup errors.
Thus tthey've save about $100.00 or more.

That's true for the tiny percentage that happen to know me. But I
suspect most folks who buy cheap (not "chap") bikes don't have anyone to
help them.

People who are intending to be just casual riders don't need to be
buying high end stuff unless they want it.

Oh, I agree. But it's a shame that so many buy bikes that are way below
low-end, and improperly set up as well.

The last such bike I worked on had a surprisingly good-looking frame.
And I think any Shimano drive train can be considered pretty reliable;
so some things have improved a lot. But the hub bearings really were
junk, the suspension fork was a joke, and the assembly was literally
hazardous.

And bike shops don't have to sell only high-end bikes. One area shop,
in business for roughly 100 years, regularly uses its history and the
owner's industry contacts and bargaining skill to score closeouts from
very reputable manufacturers. That shop frequently (not always) has
previous years' comfort or hybrid bikes at incredible sale prices,
barely above those of typical discount store bikes.

I wonder if bike shops have loss leaders at the low end of the tech
spectrum, to generate new customer relationships? It might make sense.


There are many videos and or books available to anyone to look at to
be sure ttheir bike is set up properly.

I think it's easy for us to underestimate the necessary mechanical
skills; or to overestimate the mechanical competence of the average
person. As I've related, there are some extremely intelligent people
out there who can't handle any mechanical work at all. All the YouTubes
in the world won't help much.

Taking a bike to or buying a bike from a bike shop does NOT FUARANTEE
that tthe setup will be right.

True. I've repaired bike shop work, too. But I think one's odds are
far better at a LBS than at Toys-R-Us.


--
- Frank Krygowski

The problem is really big in a lot of small towns that don't have a bike shop or where the shops are very small. In my area shops don't sell really inexpensive bikes because those shops can't compete with department stores in that price range.

Many people who are trying bicycling for the first time or are not bicycle mechanically inclined aren't going to buy used from Craig's List, Kijiji, or elswhere or from an internet seller. used or new, because that first time buyer doesn't want to chance getting something that's no good. In my opinion buying online is for the experienced bicyclist.

I've seen people, on organized rides, who needed help fixing or adjusting their department store bike but were still having a great time. I've helped at least as many people with expensive bike shop bikes.

Regarding cheap bikes and suspension forks. Yes, many of those forks are crap but they're on there to look better and not for function. Most of those BSO MTBs will never see use on anything harsher than a rail-trail. Most urban rider who want suspension to reduce shock to thir body would be far better served by a decent seat suspension post or rear frame suspension as it's the rear area that transmits the most shock.

Cheers

Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/13/2014 3:37 PM, Joerg wrote:


Department store bikes are not as bad as some elitists say they are. I
used such bikes exclusively when at university because my budget and the
high theft rate did not allow anything else. Bought them used for around
$20-30, wore them down in 6-12 months, then bought the next one. Later I
bought a nice full-custom road bike and earlier this year a $2k MTB. The
wear and tear and cost per mile (without amortization of the purchase
price) isn't any less than with my old department store bikes. In fact,
it's higher because everything costs more on those. Ok, the expensive
bikes provide a smoother ride but there's nothing wrong with starting
out on a Target bike.

Well, people are free to buy what they want. But there certainly are
problems in starting out with a Target bike - or a Toys-R-Us bike, the
last bike I fixed for someone. The front hub locked up almost
completely, and the front fork was installed backwards. I've seen brake
levers installed upside down (on a drop bar bike!), derailleurs that
wouldn't shift more than two rear cogs, brakes that couldn't be applied,
and more.


Yikes. I've never had that on any department store bike. In fact, I rode
commuter (10 miles round trip to high school) my whole time from grade 5
to grade 13 on the same road bike. Bought at the German equivalent of
Sears and in today's Dollars it would be in the sub-$200 class. The
reason why they didn't last long during my time at the university was my
frequent offroad use. There weren't any mountain bikes back then.


The big problem is that American garages are filled with these things,
sitting and collecting dust. The owners probably have many reasons (or
excuses) for not riding, but one is certainly that their bikes barely work.


It is not, IME. What I see in garages are Cannondale, Trek, Felt and so
on. All in the serious four-digit price range. Most folks don't ride
because they are ... lazy. The bikes are fine.

It's almost always the usual. "But the tires are flat" ... "No problem,
I can bring a pump" ... "But not this Sunday afternoon, there a ballgame
on".


A few years ago, I told about helping a young guy I passed on a country
road. He was walking his bike home from work because his tire pressure
was too low, so I stopped to pump his tires for him. He told me he
never shifts gears because on every bike he's had, if he shifted the
bike "broke." And he said he'd bike commuted for years, but had to buy
a new bike every year (at Wal-Mart) because they just don't last. He
was flabbergasted when I told him the bike I was riding was about 25
years old, had made the trip coast to coast, and was still perfect.

There are millions like him, who think there's no such thing as a decent
bicycle. Because, you see, Wal-Mart doesn't sell one.


Sure they do. If I was on a tight budget I'd buy a Mongoose XR-Pro 29er
from Walmart, $375 plus tax, no shipping costs if picked up at a store.
The brakes are junk but that can be remedied for $100 with a good
Shimano set. Pre-bled, so installation can be done in a jiffy. Later you
can mount a nicer rear shock if you want. But according to mountain
bikers it's not at all a bad machine.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, November 14, 2014 11:11:36 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski
wrote:
On 11/14/2014 8:46 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

[...]

Taking a bike to or buying a bike from a bike shop does NOT
FUARANTEE
that tthe setup will be right.

True. I've repaired bike shop work, too. But I think one's odds
are far better at a LBS than at Toys-R-Us.


-- - Frank Krygowski

The problem is really big in a lot of small towns that don't have a
bike shop or where the shops are very small. In my area shops don't
sell really inexpensive bikes because those shops can't compete with
department stores in that price range.


A LBS owner told me that department store bikes were the reason many LBS
still existed. Living off of repair jobs because department stores would
not provide that service. Now that we are seeing new bike paths, lanes
and trails put in the tide is turning again, bike shops start selling
new higher-priced bikes again.


Many people who are trying bicycling for the first time or are not
bicycle mechanically inclined aren't going to buy used from Craig's
List, Kijiji, or elswhere or from an internet seller. used or new,
because that first time buyer doesn't want to chance getting
something that's no good. In my opinion buying online is for the
experienced bicyclist.

I've seen people, on organized rides, who needed help fixing or
adjusting their department store bike but were still having a great
time. I've helped at least as many people with expensive bike shop
bikes.


I can only speak for offroad traffic because that's where I live but
there my experience is similar. About half the riders are using cheapo
mountain bikes and they all look pretty happy. Most have likely never
experienced the "Lincoln" feel of a higher-priced full suspension MTB.
So they haven't smelled the roses yet. Once they migrate towards the
more challenging trails they will quickly realize what I did, that a
cheapo bike without suspension and with rim brakes isn't cutting it. But
by then they see bicycling in a different light and are willing to
budget some more for it.


Regarding cheap bikes and suspension forks. Yes, many of those forks
are crap but they're on there to look better and not for function.
Most of those BSO MTBs will never see use on anything harsher than a
rail-trail. Most urban rider who want suspension to reduce shock to
thir body would be far better served by a decent seat suspension post
or rear frame suspension as it's the rear area that transmits the
most shock.


To test whether 29er wheels are really my thing (before plunking down
serious dough on a new MTB) I borrowed a friend's 29er HT. It was a $199
Walmart deal. The brakes were complete junk but the fork was not that
bad. Not nearly as good as the Manitou Tower fork I have now but I could
ride without working up the usual wrist pain. Something I could not do
on my non-suspended old MTB. That cinched it for me and I bought a real
29er.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 11/14/2014 12:53 PM, Joerg wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/13/2014 3:37 PM, Joerg wrote:


Department store bikes are not as bad as some elitists say they are. I
used such bikes exclusively when at university because my budget and the
high theft rate did not allow anything else. Bought them used for around
$20-30, wore them down in 6-12 months, then bought the next one. Later I
bought a nice full-custom road bike and earlier this year a $2k MTB. The
wear and tear and cost per mile (without amortization of the purchase
price) isn't any less than with my old department store bikes. In fact,
it's higher because everything costs more on those. Ok, the expensive
bikes provide a smoother ride but there's nothing wrong with starting
out on a Target bike.

Well, people are free to buy what they want. But there certainly are
problems in starting out with a Target bike - or a Toys-R-Us bike, the
last bike I fixed for someone. The front hub locked up almost
completely, and the front fork was installed backwards. I've seen brake
levers installed upside down (on a drop bar bike!), derailleurs that
wouldn't shift more than two rear cogs, brakes that couldn't be applied,
and more.


Yikes. I've never had that on any department store bike. In fact, I rode
commuter (10 miles round trip to high school) my whole time from grade 5
to grade 13 on the same road bike. Bought at the German equivalent of
Sears and in today's Dollars it would be in the sub-$200 class. The
reason why they didn't last long during my time at the university was my
frequent offroad use. There weren't any mountain bikes back then.


The big problem is that American garages are filled with these things,
sitting and collecting dust. The owners probably have many reasons (or
excuses) for not riding, but one is certainly that their bikes barely work.


It is not, IME. What I see in garages are Cannondale, Trek, Felt and so
on. All in the serious four-digit price range. Most folks don't ride
because they are ... lazy. The bikes are fine.

It's almost always the usual. "But the tires are flat" ... "No problem,
I can bring a pump" ... "But not this Sunday afternoon, there a ballgame
on".


A few years ago, I told about helping a young guy I passed on a country
road. He was walking his bike home from work because his tire pressure
was too low, so I stopped to pump his tires for him. He told me he
never shifts gears because on every bike he's had, if he shifted the
bike "broke." And he said he'd bike commuted for years, but had to buy
a new bike every year (at Wal-Mart) because they just don't last. He
was flabbergasted when I told him the bike I was riding was about 25
years old, had made the trip coast to coast, and was still perfect.

There are millions like him, who think there's no such thing as a decent
bicycle. Because, you see, Wal-Mart doesn't sell one.


Sure they do. If I was on a tight budget I'd buy a Mongoose XR-Pro 29er
from Walmart, $375 plus tax, no shipping costs if picked up at a store.
The brakes are junk but that can be remedied for $100 with a good
Shimano set. Pre-bled, so installation can be done in a jiffy. Later you
can mount a nicer rear shock if you want. But according to mountain
bikers it's not at all a bad machine.

Costco's Northrock bicycles, manufactured by Giant, are pretty good, but
they start around $300. They come and go to the stores.

craigslist is a crapshoot. If you don't know how to do minor repairs
yourself you could end up paying a bicycle shop a lot of money for those
repairs. My sister bought a craigslist bicycle and she met the seller at
a bicycle shop she uses and had the shop tell her what the bicycle
needed in terms of repairs. They were happy to do that. A lot happier
than working on a Smarty Mart bicycle
http://kimpossible.wikia.com/wiki/Smarty_Mart.

On Fri, 14 Nov 2014 09:21:46 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Friday, November 14, 2014 8:11:36 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/14/2014 8:46 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:


So, someone buys a chap bike and gets you to coreect any setup errors.
Thus tthey've save about $100.00 or more.

That's true for the tiny percentage that happen to know me. But I
suspect most folks who buy cheap (not "chap") bikes don't have anyone to
help them.

People who are intending to be just casual riders don't need to be
buying high end stuff unless they want it.

Oh, I agree. But it's a shame that so many buy bikes that are way below
low-end, and improperly set up as well.

The last such bike I worked on had a surprisingly good-looking frame.
And I think any Shimano drive train can be considered pretty reliable;
so some things have improved a lot. But the hub bearings really were
junk, the suspension fork was a joke, and the assembly was literally
hazardous.

Tomorrow's landfill today! The deal is that these dime-store bikes have no resale value and end up as junk. For a few bucks more, you can get either a decent used bike off Craigslist or a new bike, if you watch the sales at REI or Performance (not to mention Bicycles Direct or the other internet retailers). Plus, you can sell it later if you decide to get something better. Not that I would buy a bicycle for an investment, but one should consider resale value.

-- Jay Beattie.

Yes, You can get a decent bike, Frank can get a decent bike, and
probably everyone who posts here can get a decent bike, but I
guarantee that my wife can't get a decent bike, or the guy next door,
or the kid, three doors down the street.

It takes a certain amount of knowledge about bicycles that the
"average man" doesn't have, so they go to WalMart and buy a bike and
if they are lucky the get one that has been set up correctly and if
they are unlucky they haven't lost much.
--
Cheers,

John B.

For your reference, records indicate that
Joerg wrote:

Frank Krygowski wrote:

Well, people are free to buy what they want. But there certainly are
problems in starting out with a Target bike - or a Toys-R-Us bike, the
last bike I fixed for someone. The front hub locked up almost
completely, and the front fork was installed backwards. I've seen brake
levers installed upside down (on a drop bar bike!), derailleurs that
wouldn't shift more than two rear cogs, brakes that couldn't be applied,
and more.


Yikes. I've never had that on any department store bike. In fact, I rode
commuter (10 miles round trip to high school) my whole time from grade 5
to grade 13 on the same road bike. Bought at the German equivalent of
Sears and in today's Dollars it would be in the sub-$200 class. The
reason why they didn't last long during my time at the university was my
frequent offroad use. There weren't any mountain bikes back then.

Could just be a sign of the times. I, too, had a cheap $200 department
store bike in my youth, but “cheap� back then simply doesn’t compare to
how cheap things are being made these days. And a big factor in that
might be that stores *know* that most people are only going to ride a
few times before letting it get dusty in the garage, so they have no
real incentive to build for any sort of long-lasting quality. It’s a
race to the bottom these days, and it’s in no way limited to bikes.

It is not, IME. What I see in garages are Cannondale, Trek, Felt and so
on. All in the serious four-digit price range. Most folks don't ride
because they are ... lazy. The bikes are fine.

It's almost always the usual. "But the tires are flat" ... "No problem,
I can bring a pump" ... "But not this Sunday afternoon, there a ballgame
on".

Yeah, it’s like the gym membership people buy for their New Year’s
resolution, but then seldom bother to go after the first month. You
might be able to say that one gym is more of a dump than another, but
that’s hardly the main factor in the decision not to use it. If there
is any correlation at all, it’s when people buy a cheap bike because
they, too, *know* they’re not really serious about riding it, and so
they’re looking to spend as little as possible.

--
"Also . . . I can kill you with my brain."
River Tam, Trash, Firefly

On Saturday, November 15, 2014 11:29:53 AM UTC-5, Doc O'Leary wrote:
For your reference, records indicate that
Joerg wrote:

Frank Krygowski wrote:

Well, people are free to buy what they want. But there certainly are
problems in starting out with a Target bike - or a Toys-R-Us bike, the
last bike I fixed for someone. The front hub locked up almost
completely, and the front fork was installed backwards. I've seen brake
levers installed upside down (on a drop bar bike!), derailleurs that
wouldn't shift more than two rear cogs, brakes that couldn't be applied,
and more.


Yikes. I've never had that on any department store bike. In fact, I rode
commuter (10 miles round trip to high school) my whole time from grade 5
to grade 13 on the same road bike. Bought at the German equivalent of
Sears and in today's Dollars it would be in the sub-$200 class. The
reason why they didn't last long during my time at the university was my
frequent offroad use. There weren't any mountain bikes back then.

Could just be a sign of the times. I, too, had a cheap $200 department
store bike in my youth, but "cheap" back then simply doesn't compare to
how cheap things are being made these days. And a big factor in that
might be that stores *know* that most people are only going to ride a
few times before letting it get dusty in the garage, so they have no
real incentive to build for any sort of long-lasting quality. It's a
race to the bottom these days, and it's in no way limited to bikes.

It is not, IME. What I see in garages are Cannondale, Trek, Felt and so
on. All in the serious four-digit price range. Most folks don't ride
because they are ... lazy. The bikes are fine.

It's almost always the usual. "But the tires are flat" ... "No problem,
I can bring a pump" ... "But not this Sunday afternoon, there a ballgame
on".

Yeah, it's like the gym membership people buy for their New Year's
resolution, but then seldom bother to go after the first month. You
might be able to say that one gym is more of a dump than another, but
that's hardly the main factor in the decision not to use it. If there
is any correlation at all, it's when people buy a cheap bike because
they, too, *know* they're not really serious about riding it, and so
they're looking to spend as little as possible.

--
"Also . . . I can kill you with my brain."
River Tam, Trash, Firefly

getting their feat wet so to speak.......